Get yourself some shovels, hacker!

[Ona]

Just have to ask. Has anyone ever seen any data on just HOW MUCH less forgiving (direction + distance) heads like the S59's are than "game improvement" designs?

[miro]

Ona,

Well here is an example.

I have been playing Titty 690.cb's (players cavities) for some time. 6 months ago I swapped to the 690.mb's (pure blades). Obviously these clubs are identical in setup representing clubs in the same series from one manufacturer.

My average handicap in the year prior to swapping to blades was around 3.8. When I swapped to blades it was around 3.3.

6 months later my handicap hit 5.

4 weeks ago I swapped back to the .cb's and have broken handicap 2 of 4 rounds with much improved iron shot results and the handicap is back down to 4.1.

So my brief experiment probably indicates a couple of things:

(a) blades cost even a good ball striker (hows that for humility) 1 to 2 shots a round;
(b) I will never play blades again.

I cannot however tell you how much distance loss or direction change happens with blades. I can only say that they don't assist you if scoring is your thing.

[Ona]

Congrats on the handicap drop, but all that shows is that you score better with one iron in the bag than the other, not why. You can conclude that everyone is going to score worse with any type of "blade" based on your experience if you like, but it doesn’t hold much weight. Maybe you have more confidence when looking down on the .cb's, maybe the MOI/Swingweight/Whatever of the .cb's just didn't suit you, maybe alien witchdoctors put a curse on the mb's... who knows.

I know Wishon has talked about differences in real world performance, I'll see if I can find the info.

[miro]

Ona,

You clearly didn't read what I wrote. The clubs bar a very slight difference in look are identical. Same manufacturer, same model, same shaft, same flex, same lie angle, same loft, same static and swing weights.

As with all experiments you should only try to change one variable at a time -as much as possible I did this. For 6 months I played at a given level, I changed clubs, I played worse, I changed clubs again I played better.

They cost me strokes -end of story.

Do I know of any studies using robots that demonstrate empirically the performance parametredifferences between blades and cb's -no.

[Ona]

cool, so you had them made to match up as much as possible. nice. so if you go out and misshit the sweetspot of the 4i by 2cm with the cb's and mb's, based on your experience how much difference do you think you'll see in direction and distance?

Anyone done something similar to miro but with almsot blades like the S59's and a GI set?

[BrisVegas]

So my brief experiment probably indicates a couple of things:

(a) blades cost even a good ball striker (hows that for humility) 1 to 2 shots a round;
(b) I will never play blades again.



Yes, but the blades are so sexy!!! 8) :lol:

You never did send me pics of your 690 MB's either..... :wink:

(Apologies fo the off-topic post. :oops: )

[miro]

Bris,

I thought you had your heart set on the TA's and had not noticed the picture request -if you still want some snaps I will do some.

And yes the blades are SEXY -just look fantastic at address and in the bag!!

[Jarro]

i can't for the life of me see why anyone would want to play blades :roll:

[BrisVegas]

Bris,

I thought you had your heart set on the TA's and had not noticed the picture request -if you still want some snaps I will do some.

And yes the blades are SEXY -just look fantastic at address and in the bag!!

Mate, I got my heart set on Titleist's, it's only the money that's making me consider the TA's. don't worry about pics. I can't afford em right now and don't wanna waste any of your time.... If they're still sitting in your garage in 6 mths time, we'll talk! :)

[miro]

Ona,

Back on topic my gut feel on a significant miss hit with the blades v cb's would be circa 10 metres. But from a lie which isn't perfect a mis hit can be much more severly punished -say 20 metres.

Directionally I don't believe there to be any material difference.

There you go that is my gut feel.

[Courty]

i can't for the life of me see why anyone would want to play blades  :roll:

I used to be the same. But more recently my ball-striking has improved markedly. However, for some reason, I was still getting inconsistent distance, especially inside 130m or so. I spoke to a 3-capper who uses all blades and he was telling me that although blades are generally less forgiving he finds that the distance control is much better. I bit the bullet & decided to try a set (they're muscle-backs, not pure blades) and the results speak for themselves. More often than not these days, I find my ball pin high after a full approach shot. Check out my handicap since I bought them. There's proof in that pudding. :wink:

[peter_rs]

OK as a hacker-

the S59 are not any shorter on miss hitts, but if your pure them you can gain 10m.

With salt have a look at this Head Guide (http://www.golfworks.com/article.asp_Q_ai_E_118), as used by Golf works Australia when trying to sell and select between clubs.

I have used Mv455, Maxifli HT, Cobra SS-i TM LT & S59.

And I would rate the S59 as a very forgiving iron, and more consistent.

[AndyP]

Interesting how the Maltby clubs have the best rating in the Maltby Playability factor...

[macleod]

Just have to ask. Has anyone ever seen any data on just HOW MUCH less forgiving (direction + distance) heads like the S59's are than "game improvement" designs?

not the raw data but good old frank's playability index takes that data along with other variables into account when ranking irons here:

http://www.franklygolf.com/MPF/index.asp

he has a new 'first call' area for new irons you can check out as well.

[BrisVegas]

From Pete's site...I grabbed a bunch of the ones I knew for comparison... Some of these are unexpected! :shock:

CALLAWAY Steelhead X-16 2003 1037
CLEVELAND TA5 (cast) 2000 915
CALLAWAY Steelhead X-14 Pro  2002 891
CLEVELAND TA7 Tour Action 2002 847
TOMMY ARMOUR 845c Silver Back (forged cavity)  2003 747
PING Eye 2  1983 724
TAYLOR MADE RAC HT 2004 701
TAYLOR MADE RAC OS  2003 677
TOMMY ARMOUR 855s Silver Scot 1995 662
PING S59 2004 660
TITLEIST 804 OS (forged stainless) 2004 614
TAYLOR MADE 320 2001 607
MAXFLI Revolution (midsize)  2000 605
TITLEIST 690 CB (forged) 2002 431
TITLEIST 690 MB (forged) 2002 412
MIZUNO MP-32 #6 2004 412
TOMMY ARMOUR 845 EVO V-25 (forged)  2000 395
CLEVELAND TA3 (form forged) 1999 383
MIZUNO MP-37 2005 376
RAM Tour Grind TG-898  1998 350
NIKE Blade (forged) 2003 342
SRIXON I-302 Forged 2005 329
BEN HOGAN Apex (forged)  2001 327
NIKE Pro Combo  2005 327
BEN HOGAN Apex (forged)  1978 246
MAXFLI Australian Blade (TM-92)  1992 234

[miro]

OK as a hacker-

the S59 are not any shorter on miss hitts, but if your pure them you can gain 10m.



Ummmmmmmmmmmm

I hate to point this out but that probably just means that 90% of your shots are mis hits - the ones that go further are the way the club is supposed to be hit. :shock:

[peter_rs]

BV when I did that for the first time I got the same shock, but when you look at what the test is the physics are good.

miro that could be true & more then likely is but If I'm ment to hit a PW 150 into wind then I better rethink things.

[miro]

Pete,

If you are hitting PW 150 into the wind then that would be say 160 with no wind. This would give a 3 iron at about 230 metres, 3w at say 265 metres and Driver at 300 metres. My advice is forget about handicap and go for the long drive circuit!! :shock: :lol:

Seriously though PW that far probably indicates a few swing faults -very closed club face at impact etc.

[peter_rs]

Miro,

My PW avg is 130m. My 4 wood avg is 230m. Driver ?????? depends on how i hit it....... the club...... with my cleveland 460 i avged about 300m. The r5 is about 260m on avg. Thats why i am interested in long drive.

There are more than a few swing faults, none related to a closed face at impact. My standard shot is a fade, with a LD club.

[Ona]

It would be sweet if the MPF was a good guide to actual clubhead performance. But it doesn't look like it is.

http://www.wishongolf.com/twforum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1211&whichpage=1&SearchTerms=MPF

Even better, I found an old quote that I had saved to my computer sometime in the last couple of years. Don't know if I got it from the Wishon forum or what so I'll just post what I've copied here. Hope I didn't play around with it when I saved it. For those who don't want to read the whole thing he basically says this... CB's have countless levels of forgiveness, but the variance between them is so little as to make it irrelevant. CB's provide a significant/noticeable increase in forgiveness over mb's. Thin face design irons can outperform cb's in both direction and distance on off centre hits. Back to me now, I wonder where the new designs that are sort of in between an mb and cb fit in? Guessing they are so close to the cb's as to put them in the Forgiving column.


Off center shot forgiveness in irons which is determined by the CG and MOI is a very interesting design factor which exists in what I shall call a "black or white with no grey". This is not to be confused with off center shot forgiveness which comes from the face design itself.

The face design can only become a shot forgiveness factor when it is designed in the manner I did for the 770 irons - to be able to flex more and from that deliver higher ball speed for both on and off center than the face of a conventional iron that is thick can offer for on and off center hits. Thus all irons that are designed with a conventionally thick face can only offer off center hit forgivness from their CG and MOI characteristics.

From that I definitely have been able to see that conventional thick face irons are pretty much black or white in their off center hit forgiveness. Yes we can and do measure the MOI of the heads and yes, things like size of the head, depth of the cavity, amount of weight piled up on the perimeter can make the actual MOI measurement to be different from one conventional iron to another. But these actual MOI differences don't show up in the form of "a little more" or "a lot more" off center hit forgiveness.

Thus, you definitely can tell a difference in the degree of forgiveness between a muscleback and a cavity back iron, but it is very difficult to discern any real difference in forgiveness between one thick face cavity back vs another thick face cavity back - the lines of off center hit forgiveness that come from the MOI are too thin for golfers to really see if one head delivers 3 more yards from a 1 inch off center hit than another head.

But I will add to this that years ago when I discovered the benefits of placing the CG a little more toward the heel side of the center of the face, one of them did seem to be a little more tendency toward off center hit forgiveness. Thus all of my iron designs today, whether thick or thin face, will have their CG position a little on the heel side of face center so that I can always draw upon this factor for making each iron a little better than those from other companies.

So in the end, this matter of off center forgiveness is really a situation where the iron does or does not - and among the ones that do, there is so little difference in real yardage retention from the off center hit that it is hardly worth worrying about. But since discovering the way to make thin iron faces really perform better, there you do have the capability for more distance from the same amount of off center hit than with a thick face iron of the same CG and MOI.

Hope this helps,

TOM

[Fishman Dan]

Miro,

My PW avg is 130m. My 4 wood avg is 230m. Driver  ?????? depends on how i hit it.......  the club...... with my cleveland 460 i avged about 300m. The r5 is about 260m on avg. Thats why i am interested in long drive.

There are more than a few swing faults, none related to a closed face at impact. My standard shot is a fade, with a LD club.

Funny that. When i went to GCI in Sydney (rest in peace), Garry said that me hitting a 7-iron over 150 (using the Norman Grinds) wasn't a particularly good thing. A cocktail of a bad swing and incorrect shafts.

[Trung]

Miro,

My PW avg is 130m. My 4 wood avg is 230m. Driver  ?????? depends on how i hit it.......  the club...... with my cleveland 460 i avged about 300m. The r5 is about 260m on avg. Thats why i am interested in long drive.

There are more than a few swing faults, none related to a closed face at impact. My standard shot is a fade, with a LD club.

Very impressive Pete.... I hope you hit all your drives and 4-wood to the correct fairway.

[Fishman Dan]

You've heard the joke about the female caddie in Thailand, after a bloke takes a number of shots during his round? :-# :-&

[shazza_rs]

Trung,

Don't you know anything..... I can't play from the correct fairway. :wink:
My game is built on recovery shots. :lol:

Peter

[Ona]

:evil:

[AndyP]

How can we take you seriously, Pete, if you can't even use the correct log in?

So if there's little difference between different CBs, does that mean the size of the head isn't having any effect?

[Ona]

Apparently, it'll change all sorts of measurable things, but not enough to give you any appreciable increase in off centre "forgiveness".

Has anyone read the link to the MPF thread or the Wishon quote? I thought you guys would be a little shocked by this :? One of the most respected golf club design guys out there is saying that unless you’re buying a thin faced iron, all cb's are essentially equal in terms of off centre forgiveness :shock:

So we can cross off the forgiveness factor when looking at cb's. My original question is still good tho. How the designs that are sort of in between an mb and cb stack up. I don't really keep up with the new OEM offerings, are there many heads like that? Would you call the S59's an mb or in between?

[Matt 3 Jab]

ok guys i need help, i play forged hogan apex blades, the 2000 model, which rank really unplayable, but i think i hit them really well, and even in the long irons i dont seem to miss-hit them very often.
I just bought some Tourstage NB-32 cavity/muscle type irons for a mate, thinking of playing them for a round to see how i go, they look good, but not as good as my blades at address, which is why i bought blades, the look at address.
How do i see whether its the clubs or just the way i swing it on the day that makes a difference, i could swing it pure and have 70 or swing it crap (including the driver, so irons would play no part) and have 90???
The clubs (NB-32's) look great untill the 8 iron where they do get a little boxy, nothing that i wouldnt use but my hogans look better  :P
Overall im asking 2 questions: 1) how can i tell if it is the irons that make a difference, any real swing type test??? 2) who out there thinks i should use a cavity/muscle type iron because it will save me strokes, or who thinks "use what you want and have that confidence"???

p.s. i play off a 6 handicap and New Brighton, par 72, rated 73 CCR

[Jarro]

Matt 3 Jab,

.. if you are playing to a 6 handicap using the Hogan Apex Blades, why change :smt017

FWIW, i actually demoed a set of those Hogans a while ago, and found them quite easy to hit, much easier than i thought anyway for a 12 capper :lol:

[miro]

Matt,

Q1 -do what I did play the other set for a reasonable period and see if your Hcap gets better or worse -other than that I feel it is very hard to actually determine a difference (i.e. you need to hit real life shots from real life lies -not driving range perfect lies with a grooved swing).

Q2 -your 6 hcap says to me that you should not be blaying blade / muscle back designs. When I made the decision to go blades I was playing off between 3 and 4, hitting 11 GIR per round and having 33 putts on average. That indicates I am probably a better than average ball striker for a 4 hcap but a crap putter. And blades cost me shots -no question.

So my advice -use what you want and have confidence in -as long as it is a CB design.

[Matt 3 Jab]

Well Jarro, im with you deep down, i love my blades, i dont care if im not "supposed" to hit them, i hit them good, and a few bad shots a round is going to happen with any iron, but if i could see the proof that using the cavities would help me lose 2 shots, well i would switch, but i think its my short game, not my iron play that loses me shots
and yes, the irons are easy to hit IMO, knuckle the centre and BAM!!!

[BrisVegas]

Just for grins, I might play my next round with my shovels (TA 855s) and see if my occasional mis-hit results in a GIR or a recovery shot...

[Ona]

Matt I play the same irons as you. Bought them from the club pro when I was a stupid 16yr old. The only question I asked him was do you think these are good for me? If I wasn't a lazy turd I'd try to sell them for enough to buy some cb's. That said tho, IMO the most they cost me on a miss-hit in the mid-long irons is a few metres in direction and distance. Not enough to ruin a day on the course for a social player like myself. If keeping your bad miss-hits a couple metres closer to the target would save you two shots every round, then the switch might be the go.

BTW, are you using the stock shafts or something else?

[AndyP]

One of the most respected golf club design guys out there is saying that unless you’re buying a thin faced iron, all cb's are essentially equal in terms of off centre forgiveness  :shock:
What are examples of thin-faced and thick-faced irons?

[Ona]

thin faced = Wishon 770cfe
thick faced = 99% of irons out there

There's prolly other thin faced heads, I just don't know of them :oops:

[Matt 3 Jab]

BTW, are you using the stock shafts or something else?
im using rifle 6.5's in the irons, and like you i dont see the mis-hit being too dramatic, the way i putt i might aswell be off the green :lol:
just wondering thats all, my last irons were players cavities and i think i hit the hogans better, time will tell i guess :wink:
Andrew or Grunt can post how i hit the clubs when we play on tuesday.

[freddy a]

Or you can use a combo set cavity in the long and blades in the short. u get the best of both worlds with combos

[markTHEblake]

Just have to ask. Has anyone ever seen any data on just HOW MUCH less forgiving (direction + distance) heads like the S59's are than "game improvement" designs?

You can find some info on this by reading Dave Tutlelmans notes, not necessarily data, but his interpretation of physics combined with data he has seen.
http://www.tutelman.com/golfclubs/DesignNotes/index.php?ref=clubmakeronline

Dave is a living legend in clubmaking circles. If you have any interest in golf clubs, then you should read everything.

from memory he will tell you that there is no difference whatsoever between blades and cavity backs when struck in the centre. So if anybody tells you that their blades are longer then they are talking our of their ar...armpits.

and off centre hits are between 5-10 yards loss of distance on the blades.