King of the Flip!!!

[mrbluu]

Hi Guys

I have a friend when he used to play regularly he would be a 6-7marker and is now off 13. I think his biggest problem is he flips the hell out his hands at impact, as a result he hits sky high balls with lots of spin and not much control or consistency. Has anyone here have/had the same problem and could recommend and drills to stop it.

Thanks in advance.

[markTHEblake]

Yes, No.

but apparently this might help. Get an old shaft and shove it into the end of your grip, so now the club is twice as long. Now hit balls without whacking yourself in the side on your follow through.

Note: it bloody hurts.

[Daves]

Yes, No.

but apparently this might help. Get an old shaft and shove it into the end of your grip, so now the club is twice as long. Now hit balls without whacking yourself in the side on your follow through.

Note: it bloody hurts.

Yep, that is a good one. If you can get hold of a Taly, that will also give you instant feedback on whether you are flipping or not.

http://www.taly.com/

[razaar]

It can happen to anybody, even the pros suffer from the occasional flip. It is not only caused by an over the top action and early release, but also by swinging at the ball and not through it. The old teachers in the hickory era would set up something in front of the ball and get the student to swing through ball position and drive through the obstacle, be it a small mound of sand or a bundle of wax matches. Norman recommended hitting an imaginary ball 6 inches past the ball position. The purpose is to have the hands or grip end of the club ahead of the club head at impact by keeping the top hand ahead of the bottom hand.

[Puji]

i am basically who you described in your first post.

I was at 7 at the start of the year, blew out to 11 (anchored) and now just making my way back down (im at 9)

I flip my wrists something chronic. I get a ridiculous amount of spin, hit my driver further than most and my irons shorter than all.

the shaft through the grip thing sounds effing painful!

[mrbluu]

He is sort of the opposite. Spins it heaps with the driver and hits it about 20m shorter than me, but he is about 1.5 to 2 club longer in the irons. He can hit is 9iron 145m compared to my 125m.

[Puji]

Ah ok. Yeah that is opposite. I actually manage to keep a FLW @ impact with the driver.

Anyway; I will keep my eye on this thread. Hope a good drill screams out at me. One that doesn't involve bruising.

[Toolish]

Is he willing to work hard at it, because in my experience stopping a flip takes a lot of work.

I used to play off 9 practising a lot and flipped the crap out of it. If my timing was on I hit it pretty solid but high and spinny. Spent about 18 months really working on it 2-3 nights a week at the range plus a round each weekend plus who knows how many balls around back yard, rehearsal swings and research time.

Anyhow, end result for me was that I now play of 5-6, never practice and play about once a month. Timing is a lot less important when the flip is less!

For me a few things helped.

I wrist tac-tic and some wooden dowels were the only training aids I used.

The tac-tic is self explanatory, the dowels used as per here http://www.iseekgolf.com/golfinstruction/6111-keep-your-swing-on-plane-part-one.

Start with chips, I used to even flip them, hit a chip shot and hold the finish and have a look at the left wrist. watch and learn until it is flat at the end of a basic chip. A big part of this is hitting down through the ball, take a divot, exaggerate it for effect when practicing. I spent a year taking massive divots on chips to get this down, not the best way to chip long term but it was part of learning for my full swing.

Then move up to a pitch, same thing.

Then look at a half swing....this is where I kept breaking down. You have to learn to roll the wrist, if you don't roll it has to bend. Again, observe what you do and you can teach yourself.

Finally you can get to a full swing. That progression is not going to be in one practice session, even if you are bloody good that takes time to work through and sink in.

[Puji]

I am currently at the chip stage. I can do that pretty well - hitting low spinny chips.

Anything else: and I suspect that I revert to a flip.

I need to work harder on it. It really is holding me back at the moment.

[Puji]

Want to sell me the tac-tic you used?

[Jono]

Want to sell me the tac-tic you used?

Did I sell that tac-tic to you, Toolish, some years ago along with the swing speed radar?

[Puji]

For $15 I think!!!!

[Bushka]

i flip massively its why i hit a 12 degree 3 wood about 300 feet and can't keep jack all down. I've started dropping handicap recently and im near certain its just from timing my irons are shagged for consistency and can be a lot shorter than they should be as opposed to driver.

[mrbluu]

Any recommendations to fix it?

[Toolish]

Did I sell that tac-tic to you, Toolish, some years ago along with the swing speed radar?

Nope...you sold the SS radar to me I think, but I got the TacTic from Ona. And I won't be selling it, handy little bit of kit.

[mrbluu]

Is he willing to work hard at it, because in my experience stopping a flip takes a lot of work.

I used to play off 9 practising a lot and flipped the crap out of it. If my timing was on I hit it pretty solid but high and spinny. Spent about 18 months really working on it 2-3 nights a week at the range plus a round each weekend plus who knows how many balls around back yard, rehearsal swings and research time.

Anyhow, end result for me was that I now play of 5-6, never practice and play about once a month. Timing is a lot less important when the flip is less!

For me a few things helped.

I wrist tac-tic and some wooden dowels were the only training aids I used.

The tac-tic is self explanatory, the dowels used as per here http://www.iseekgolf.com/golfinstruction/6111-keep-your-swing-on-plane-part-one.

Start with chips, I used to even flip them, hit a chip shot and hold the finish and have a look at the left wrist. watch and learn until it is flat at the end of a basic chip. A big part of this is hitting down through the ball, take a divot, exaggerate it for effect when practicing. I spent a year taking massive divots on chips to get this down, not the best way to chip long term but it was part of learning for my full swing.

Then move up to a pitch, same thing.

Then look at a half swing....this is where I kept breaking down. You have to learn to roll the wrist, if you don't roll it has to bend. Again, observe what you do and you can teach yourself.

Finally you can get to a full swing. That progression is not going to be in one practice session, even if you are bloody good that takes time to work through and sink in..

Thanks Toolish, I can't believe I missed your post.

You sound just like my mate, as he flips his hands drastically when he chips. He is quite a good chipper and can hit lob shots with almost any club in his bag. Downside to to this is his long game is totally reliant on timing (which is what I told him). When get gets a few games under his belt the timing comes back and he stripes it, but the rest of the year when he is playing 2-3 times a month, he struggles.

Those tips looks good and I'll pass it onto him.

[Jono]

Nope...you sold the SS radar to me I think, but I got the TacTic from Ona. And I won't be selling it, handy little bit of kit.

OK. I sold it to someone on Ozgolf...

[mrbluu]

now I know what you guys mean about the tic tac. Where can I get one of those???

[Puji]

I want one also. Is there no one in Aus that distributes it or something similar?

[virge666]

You can also get the Greg Norman Secret. Same sort of thing..

But if you want to really get rid of the flip - you have to change how your left forearm works on the downswing.

[mrbluu]

You can also get the Greg Norman Secret. Same sort of thing..

But if you want to really get rid of the flip - you have to change how your left forearm works on the downswing.

I was waiting for you to chime in!!!

I've been looking for the GN Secret for a little while for myself as well. When you say change how your left forearm works, what do you mean. What is it doing now and what it should be doing??

[Puji]

I'm guessing- left forearm should be rotating?

[mrbluu]

Also do flippers struggle to hit a draw.

[Peter]

You can flip and hit it miles left.

[Puji]

I can hit draws. And I am a chronic flipper.

However, if I need to hit a strong draw; more often than not I will hit it a little fat.

Not sure why - but the inside to out path tends to show out the flip.

[mrbluu]

He can certainly hit it left with a massive hook and/or pull hook, but a little baby draw are few and far in between.

[curis jerik]

That's god you can make a good draw and it is simple if you want to go for a strong draw then you will have to push harder in other words you have to use more strength.

[Bushka]

im a huge flipper i can hit the ball 300 feet in the air with a fence post and going rights not really an issue you end up pulling more and it looks like a nice draw when your hands are timing it well but when you are not timing it well it turns into an exocet left which is hard to recover from.

[PerryGroves]

I would be happy to stand on any practice tee and have a hookathon with anyone. Suspect if I tried hard i could get my hybrid to go backwards. Mine comes from getting too far underneath (inside) the ball and having to flip to get it back on path. As Toolish said, when things are good and timing is working you can play good golf. It is just not consistent.

I have altered my swing plane and bring my hands closer to my legs as I am coming through the ball. I am hopeless at describing what has happened but it does start with having the right move on small chips and pitches.

[Bushka]

I practiced with new titleist driver today drove the first green at manly off the back tees with a fair bloody tailwind with two practice balls great ball flight and thought I might have figured it out(been working on transition), two 150 mtr hooks left with 3 wood off the second tee box it's back to the drawing board. Honestly fighting flipping is like trying to push poo uphill with a stick.

[virge666]

Guys,

The only way to fix a flipping action is to learn how to pitch.

Trying to fix flipping with a full swing does not work. It never has worked as your left wrist is not pronating through impact and you cannot do this at full speed.

[virge666]

I have altered my swing plane and bring my hands closer to my legs as I am coming through the ball. I am hopeless at describing what has happened but it does start with having the right move on small chips and pitches.

Perfect example of not knowing the cause of the flip and adding something to exacerbate it.

Now the real killer as that all flippers hit hooks, usually really high ones and then low ones or pull shots when they try and slow it down. And the way to fix the hook is to rotate the left forearm more through impact which scares the shit out of anyone who's bad shot is a hook.

Bit hard to explain on a forum... but you need to get some bend in that right elbow at setup and let it fold so the elbow points down on the backswing.

... this is what puts you in a better position on the backswing to stop the flip.

THEN, on the way down, rotate 7 colours of shit out of the left forearm... NOT THE LEFT WRIST ! (Yes, there is a major difference)

Rotating the wrist is flipping - rotating the left forearm is pure.

it will feel like smothering the ball at first - but your ball flight will be lower with a lot more spin... try it with your wedges and up to 8 iron.

[Puji]

Great explanation Virge.

I am a little different. I hook with my woods and slice/ fade with my irons when my timing is off or when my flipping gets excessive.

I have a deadly combo - flipping and coming over the top. Makes golf unbearable when I am off.

I am sure that I flip to try and correct my OTT move. So I have been focussing on fixing that OTT path- and I am convinced it is helping my flipping.

What I have found has helped me with my flipping/ OTT is at the top of my swing; feeling as if I start my downswing with a move that takes the grip of the club further away from the ball rather than straight down at it. It's really hard to explain in words.

There was a great drill which helped get the feeling, by dropping the club behind your back at the top of the swing.

I know I am probably way wrong/ off. But I don't understand any of this stuff so I am really just doing what works for me.

[PerryGroves]

II have altered my swing plane and bring my hands closer to my legs as I am coming through the ball. I am hopeless at describing what has happened but it does start with having the right move on small chips and pitches.


Perfect example of not knowing the cause of the flip and adding something to exacerbate it.

Now the real killer as that all flippers hit hooks, usually really high ones and then low ones or pull shots when they try and slow it down. And the way to fix the hook is to rotate the left forearm more through impact which scares the shit out of anyone who's bad shot is a hook.

Bit hard to explain on a forum... but you need to get some bend in that right elbow at setup and let it fold so the elbow points down on the backswing.

... this is what puts you in a better position on the backswing to stop the flip.

THEN, on the way down, rotate 7 colours of shit out of the left forearm... NOT THE LEFT WRIST ! (Yes, there is a major difference)

Rotating the wrist is flipping - rotating the left forearm is pure.

it will feel like smothering the ball at first - but your ball flight will be lower with a lot more spin... try it with your wedges and up to 8 iron.

Virge, I have poorly explained what is happening (no shock there), its not plane, what is happening to my path is occurring because of what you have described. It is very scary at first, was down at Narrabeen with Dave S. said to him I was going to hit the houses on the left, he was right of course, everything went straight. Returning to discussing cricket, NRL and other jibber, will leave the golf to you.

[Toolish]

Now the real killer as that all flippers hit hooks,

No they don't...I flipped the shit out of it hit a high cut.

[virge666]

No they don't...I flipped the shit out of it hit a high cut.

That is because you came over the top to defeat the hook.

It is all a progression.

Step 1.
Everything about the golf swing makes the ball go left. Your swinging left, the clubface is closing left, the body is going left, everything is about the hook. We all add our own ways of not going left.

Some people come over the top and hit high slices.
Some people come in on plane and time a high draw
A LOT of people come over the top and hit the Pull Cut. (A real lot of people)

Good players can hit the hold off to control a baby fade without losing a lot of distance. This is where you want to get to.

[virge666]

Virge, I have poorly explained what is happening (no shock there), its not plane, what is happening to my path is occurring because of what you have described. It is very scary at first, was down at Narrabeen with Dave S. said to him I was going to hit the houses on the left, he was right of course, everything went straight. Returning to discussing cricket, NRL and other jibber, will leave the golf to you.

Dave is perfect for that - his Single plane stuff can be amazing.

Feels like you are about to smother hook the shit out of it - but you get this nice flat trajectory at the target.

If only we could take it to the course . . .

[virge666]

Great explanation Virge.

I am a little different. I hook with my woods and slice/ fade with my irons when my timing is off or when my flipping gets excessive.



Nope - you hook the heavier woods and slice the lighter irons... makes perfect sense.



I have a deadly combo - flipping and coming over the top. Makes golf unbearable when I am off.

I am sure that I flip to try and correct my OTT move. So I have been focussing on fixing that OTT path- and I am convinced it is helping my flipping.


Ha - You and Dotty need to get together - been doing some great work with him and he has exactly the same problem.



There was a great drill which helped get the feeling, by dropping the club behind your back at the top of the swing.

Right foot back drill and hit little soft draws... that would do it.

[razaar]

The maddening thing about golf is the cure for a fault is not the natural correction. There is nothing about the golf swing that is natural. I love Hogan's famous quote about doing the reverse of our natural instinct and we will be close to getting it right. That is the reason it is such a tough game.

[Toolish]

That is because you came over the top to defeat the hook.


Yep, you are right. But I still flipped it and did not hook it.

The way you wrote the sentence before made it sound like if you don't hook it you can't be a flipper. In fact, from what I have seen most high handicap flippers are the OTT and flip type and hit the high slice.

[virge666]

I see . . . my bad

[Puji]

Virge; in your opinion - if you had to choose one only, which would you work on first; club path or club face angle with the aim of maintaining some half decent golf scores?

I know both are probably equally as important, but I have found that I can swing in-out easily, but I leave the face wayy open when I do it. Makes scoring very difficult.

[Toolish]

Not virge, but IMHO it is near impossible to work on one without the other unless you are just drilling into a net. Your brain just won't let you, they are both wrong to cover each other.

If you fix path you will start blocking the hell out of it, that gets old quick.
Fix the face and you pull everything...again, gets old.

So generally after playing for a few holes your subconscious will go, screw this, and throw some other correction in to keep it on the planet.

I tend to try to work on both, you will hit some absoulte crap and have no idea where it is going, but every now and then you will get it right and mentally that is great for you and you can work on that feeling.

[razaar]

Anybody who knows anything about the golf swing will work on clubface alignment before swing path. This is why the grip is so important. Another factor influencing clubface alignment is arm rotation and wrist movements. Confirming #39, the cure of a fault is usually the opposit to our natural instinct. An example is a player who slices. The first step is to strengthen the grip and encourage a feeling of rotating the right forearm over the left forearm through impact. Just work on this fundamental until the player is so pissed and sick of losing everything to the left that he will focus on setting up a bit closed and starting the ball to the right. It won't work any other way because swing path depends on clubface control, not the other way around.

[Puji]

Thanks Raz that's very helpful!!!

[Puji]

I have got myself a tac tic. Saw it at the range for $30. Thought why not.

The biggest issue I am having with it is that it tic's for me when I take my grip. I have a strong grip that means I have a cupped left wrist at address.

Thoughts on this? Is it ok to have a. Upper wrist at address. Having a straight wrist fees bizarre - even though it may be 'neutral'.

[razaar]

Adam Scott has a unique way of gripping the club with his left hand. He holds the club across his body with the club head resting on the ground outside his right foot and the shaft parallel to the plane line (ball/target line). He adjusts the clubface to aim 90* to the plane line and adjusts his left hand so that the back of the hand faces 90* to the plane line. He then lifts the club to his front and fits the right hand to the grip.

Pugi, are you referring to the right wrist being straight and the left being cupped at address?

[Puji]

Raz: yep. My grip means that my left wrist is cupped - I can see three knuckles easily. And my right wrist is flat.

What are your thoughts about this?

[Jono]

Raz: yep. My grip means that my left wrist is cupped - I can see three knuckles easily. And my right wrist is flat.

What are your thoughts about this?

Puji, Ben Doyle uses tac tic and I remember seeing a video of Ben using it. He mentions what should happen if you start with cupped left wrist. The tac tic should click as you flatten your left wrist on the backswing and click again AFTER impact on your follow through as your left wrist cups again.

[Toolish]

Puji, Ben Doyle uses tac tic and I remember seeing a video of Ben using it. He mentions what should happen if you start with cupped left wrist. The tac tic should click as you flatten your left wrist on the backswing and click again AFTER impact on your follow through as your left wrist cups again.

Yep, that is pretty much it. Should click to flat pretty quickly at the start of the backswing.

Puji, you may find if you fix the flip and learn to rotate your grip can weaken up a bit.

If you have a bit of time to play around try taking a fairly weak grip and hit some shots to see what happens, for some people the weaker grip allows their sub-conscious to take over and it forces them to roll more.

[Puji]

Thanks raz, I saw that video.

The problem is when I use the tac-tic it only tac's after impact on the follow through. But I know I flip before impact.

Toolish: thanks for the tip. I will definitely give the neutral grip a go, and see what the result is.

[Toolish]

Thanks raz, I saw that video.

The problem is when I use the tac-tic it only tac's after impact on the follow through. But I know I flip before impact.

Toolish: thanks for the tip. I will definitely give the neutral grip a go, and see what the result is.

Does it tic at all on the backswing? How tight are you doing the strap, the tighter you do the strap the less freedom it gives you.

[Puji]

It tics when I take my grip, tac's on my take away and tics again on my follow through!

It's tight enough to detect my wrist cupping. Well it's tight enough to get uncomfrtable after a few swings... So I'm sure I have it on properly.

I know I am flipping- my recent track man session recorded my 6 iron clubhead speed at 92mph. And I can only hit my 6 iron 150m! I know there will be other reasons for this - but I am sure it's because I am not compressing the ball properly and launching it too high. My AoA is 4-5* down though.

I hope to head to the tnge tonight to give this a go with a ball in the way.

[razaar]

Raz: yep. My grip means that my left wrist is cupped - I can see three knuckles easily. And my right wrist is flat.

What are your thoughts about this?
Many good golfers have this setup at address. Pretty sure that they also have some forward press movement that moves the hands slightly forward to kick off the takeaway. The forward movement is a slight forward press with the lower body which reacts in the hands. The club shaft needs to be in the same plane as the right forearm below waist high on both the back swing and downswing and in line with the left forearm above the waist in an uncomplicated swing. The right wrist flex is best achieved during the takeaway and the flat left wrist in the upswing. This way there is a two dimensional wrist flex.

[virge666]

Virge; in your opinion - if you had to choose one only, which would you work on first; club path or club face angle with the aim of maintaining some half decent golf scores?

I know both are probably equally as important, but I have found that I can swing in-out easily, but I leave the face wayy open when I do it. Makes scoring very difficult.

Neither - you learn the hand action first

Then you work out how to grip the club so the hand action is all but automatic... and then path will look after itself... and throw the tic tac away, pointless piece of shit that will just frustrate you as you dont know the hand action.

You need to know this ... not just think you are doing it - - really KNOW it. you learn it with 50yard pitching.



21179

Lastly - lose the strong grip, you dont need it and it is not helping.

[Puji]

Hands first.

Got it. I understand what the left hand should be doing - supination and rotation - but I struggle to do it. when I think I'm doing it, I'm not. When I don't think doing it - I do sometimes.

I have hogans 5F on my desk. I should revisit it soon! Cheers for taking the time to reply!

[virge666]

Hands first.

Got it. I understand what the left hand should be doing - supination and rotation - but I struggle to do it. when I think I'm doing it, I'm not. When I don't think doing it - I do sometimes.

I have hogans 5F on my desk. I should revisit it soon! Cheers for taking the time to reply!

Try and Lag the wrist with the forearm...

Another way is to let the rotation of the left forearm pull the wrist through impact - the wrist is never allowed to go past the forearm. Easy to say - it should feel like a total smother hook - and i really mean it.

To be honest - once you get this... you will be a single marker for the rest of your life. But this is the hard bit.

Look at hogans fingernails through impact - see how they always point to the sky...

Try that.

[timah!]

Virge:

I love you man. Damn that makes total frikken sense..

Hopefully I'll remember it for when I get to a range in say, oh, a months time. Haha.

[razaar]

Virge is right. It is a difficult concept to grasp if the left hand doesn't turn under (palm facing towards the sky) in the takeaway. The hand action through the impact position is the reverse of this. Hogan didn't explain this in his book very well.

[mrbluu]

the more I read these post the more I think I'm a flipper as well, but not as bad as my mate. Might need to come up and have a session with you in the next few weeks Virge....

[Puji]

This has turned into a golden thread thanks to Virge and raz.

I had a hit last night at the range. I really tried to work on some of the ideas in this thread.

It wasn't easy. I'm not sure whether I should be trying to work on these things at the range. As I can't help but make corrections for my ball flight.

I flip to avoid heel/ hosel rockets. When I try and roll my left wrist/ forearm( and keep a FLW) my impact nears the hosel and then the deadly cycle begins.

I think I am still doing it wrong - I find myself bringing the club viciously from the inside and impact occurs further away from the body. Hard to explain but in order to roll the wrists- I think my right wrist revolves around my left rather than my hands working together.

I had to give myself a lot more room and also have my hands higher at address. I hit some great penetrating shots - and those shots were easily 15m further than my stock rubbish. Goes to show how viciously I am flipping!

And Virge: I owe you a beer or two. The tip re: losing the strong grip was brilliant. Instantly cured my driver woes. For some reason the strong grip wasn't letting me release the clubhead. My driving is almost back to where it once was.

[virge666]

And Virge: I owe you a beer or two. The tip re: losing the strong grip was brilliant. Instantly cured my driver woes. For some reason the strong grip wasn't letting me release the clubhead. My driving is almost back to where it once was.

All the strong grip does is put your upper body further and further behind the ball.

The further you are behind - the LESS able you can take the club up on plane, or in other words - the more lower body moves you have to add to get the club back down on plane.

Throw the driver away - just grab 8 iron and hit it to the 100m marker for an hour or so. Ask anyone who has seen me on the range - I hit a SW and then an 8 and 9 iron for over an hour just to work on that impact position and body.

Think of it like going to the gym... you see this muppet doing 10 reps in about 15-20 seconds. just throwing the weights up and cathing it. This is you guys on the range. Just bashing it until you start timing whatever technique your brought to the range. Then you go home thinking you are hitting it well, untll you get to the course and hit it everywhere.

No watch the blokes at the gym who know what they are doing... each movement is deliberate, they work through the motion and focus on the process, not the result. Next time you go to the gym, try and do 5 reps at 4 seconds up and 4 seconds down... you will start to notice muscle groups work differently. Then go back to a faster speed but keep those muscles working the same way and order...

The same goes for golf, grab the 8 iron and work on shorter shots of 80-100m, focus on the left forearm rotating and pull that left wrist through impact. Do it slowly and build it up. Then go back and compare the full swing to the pitching swing.

That is how you get shit done.

[Puji]

I definitely hear what you are saying. Lately I have been adopting your approach.or trying to. It's hard when you hit a bad shot - to not quickly reach for another to hit a "good one" to erase the memory of the bad one.

I only hit 4 balls with the driver last night. The other 46 were hit with my 7 iron. Also just trying half hits to reach the 100m banner. Almost Every time I really tried to work on the left forearm/ wrist I shanked or topped it. Again; goes to show how badly my impact must be atm. I wouldn't dare to imagine the types of compensations I am making just to hit the damn thing in the air!

[razaar]

This has turned into a golden thread thanks to Virge and raz.

I had a hit last night at the range. I really tried to work on some of the ideas in this thread.

It wasn't easy. I'm not sure whether I should be trying to work on these things at the range. As I can't help but make corrections for my ball flight.

I flip to avoid heel/ hosel rockets. When I try and roll my left wrist/ forearm( and keep a FLW) my impact nears the hosel and then the deadly cycle begins.

I think I am still doing it wrong - I find myself bringing the club viciously from the inside and impact occurs further away from the body. Hard to explain but in order to roll the wrists- I think my right wrist revolves around my left rather than my hands working together.

I had to give myself a lot more room and also have my hands higher at address. I hit some great penetrating shots - and those shots were easily 15m further than my stock rubbish. Goes to show how viciously I am flipping!

And Virge: I owe you a beer or two. The tip re: losing the strong grip was brilliant. Instantly cured my driver woes. For some reason the strong grip wasn't letting me release the clubhead. My driving is almost back to where it once was.
The best and quickest way to learn the correct hand/wrist action is in chipping, then move on to pitching, then half shots and then 3/4 shots. The worst way which is sure to fail is to start with full shots. You will be learning a different swing concept and different motor skills which requires forming new movement patterns in the cortex of the brain. Each baby step takes a minimum of four weeks continuous work to learn the skill. If you work hard at it as I suggested it will take you at least 18 months to get it down pat. In the meantime the quality of your shots will go all over the place because you are working on a specific swing element that doesn't yet fit into your established swing.

[Puji]

OK - that's it then. For the next two weeks - all I am going to practice is my chipping. And getting that action down pat.

I'm pretty confident I can do it with my chipping already. But time to ingrain it. I will update with videos of my chipping, then pitches then 3/4 and full as you have prescribed.

I'm not going to bother hitting a ball at the range for any other type of shot. Except maybe putting.

Day one begins today!

Thanks guys. I will stop cluttering this thread with my own garbage. Instead will update my swing thread.

[razaar]

I suggest you start with the strap drill, see James C C swing thread.

[Puji]

I just had a read of that drill. I think I need a video to fully understand how it's done. But confused. I will search YouTube to see of there is something I can find there

[razaar]

I doubt there is a you-tube on this drill. I found it in a 1930 publication by Abe Mitchell (rare book).
http://i384.photobucket.com/albums/oo283/bennie_065/Mail0009.jpg
http://i384.photobucket.com/albums/oo283/bennie_065/Mail0008.jpg
I posted this in Martin's thread 2 years ago.

[Puji]

Sorry raz; I must be rather thick.

I have read your post in the other thread and also the screenshots of the book you have pictures of.

But I don't understand where the belt goes. Would you mind explaining where the belt would go? I know it should go over your right elbow - but where does it loop around? Your waist or a buckle on your pants?

[razaar]

Around the waist which requires an over sized belt (longer belt). A length of rope will serve the same purpose. Joe Dante recommended this drill also in his book "the four magic moves to winning golf" available in kindle form. It is a better book IMO than Hogan's "Five lessons....".

[Puji]

Thanks! I'll try it out with some rope. I'll quote your post in the other thread so it helps people who are reading this thread:


The strap drill is perfect to learn this takeaway. You will need an oversized belt to strap your upper right arm (at the elbow joint) to your side. Chip balls in this set up, making sure the right elbow stays down and the hands don't lift. The right arm stays straight and in line with the right thigh. The wrists shut the clubface, the left palm starting to face skywards and the right palm facing downwards. This is the takeaway action in all normal shots, including chips and pitches. The forward movement is a see-saw movement of the shoulders with the left hand leading the club head through impact. Once you become familiar with this method you will feel the right hand delivering power without any assistance. Work on this drill every day for a month and we can move on to the next movement with the strap which includes the pivot.

[Yossarian]

Try and Lag the wrist with the forearm...

Look at hogans fingernails through impact - see how they always point to the sky...



Holy shit.

[Yossarian]

I've had a few driving range epiphanies but I have never hit the ball as consistently as I just did with the above being the only real focus. I'm excited.

[Puji]

good to hear! Follow it up with some video's so the ones who take longer to implement changes (me) can see what to aspire to!

Speaking of which, I have just taken some video of myself chipping (stage 1) into my curtain at home. Raz/Virge: please have a look and comment in my thread. I don't know whether I am doing the right things or completely off the mark!

LINK TO THREAD/VIDEO: http://www.ozgolf.net/showthread.php/22627-Puji-s-swing?p=894750&viewfull=1#post894750

[Jono]

Neither - you learn the hand action first

Then you work out how to grip the club so the hand action is all but automatic... and then path will look after itself... and throw the tic tac away, pointless piece of shit that will just frustrate you as you dont know the hand action.

You need to know this ... not just think you are doing it - - really KNOW it. you learn it with 50yard pitching.



21179

Lastly - lose the strong grip, you dont need it and it is not helping.

That's not what Hogan did in his real swing.

[PeteyD]

this thread is gold.

[Puji]

Jono: please elaborate!

[virge666]

That's not what Hogan did in his real swing.

I have read that article and seen the video from a few guys who say and show the cupping of the left wrist on a few of Hogan's swing. Beside me thinking that their interpretation is bollocks and serves little purpose to anyone other than promoting the writer... The couple of videos he used, Hogan may have been hitting cuts, who knows ?

The point of the motion is THAT IS WHAT IT FEELS LIKE ! And the skill in golf is matching that motion with the body and still having control.

[virge666]

I doubt there is a you-tube on this drill. I found it in a 1930 publication by Abe Mitchell (rare book).

I posted this in Martin's thread 2 years ago.

Ray,

I am biased here as I have an Edwin swing pattern, and I don't like this drill. it is just too easy to screw up. And I don't think people will get the anti-clockwise rotation of the right forearm on the backswing. I would hope they do as this really is the key to the drill.

The preset drill or Moe Norman drill IMO is a much better option. The only pre-requisite is to get the hands behind the right shoulder if viewed from the front.

Just get the hand action right, rehearse it and find a place to bring the club down from. Just work backwards from impact.

[Vice MC]

wow some good info here!

[Jono]

I have read that article and seen the video from a few guys who say and show the cupping of the left wrist on a few of Hogan's swing. Beside me thinking that their interpretation is bollocks and serves little purpose to anyone other than promoting the writer... The couple of videos he used, Hogan may have been hitting cuts, who knows ?

The point of the motion is THAT IS WHAT IT FEELS LIKE ! And the skill in golf is matching that motion with the body and still having control.

Virge, I've been on the quest of the flat left wrist (or even bowed) for as long as I can remember and I used to try to do exactly what you are saying. I read Hogan's stuff and even believed Mark Evershed when he said that the appearance of bent left wrist and flat right wrist after impact was an illusion (even though photos told me otherwise). I even made a training aid that would keep the left wrist flat or slightly bowed through impact and for as long as possible and I rotated the crap out of it to keep the club on plane.

Hogan may have felt this in his way and you may feel it but if you tell it to a mid or high handicapper, they are going to tense up the left wrist and lose any zip they had through impact. This is not what Hogan did. He didn't KEEP his left wrist flat through impact. It's not what you do either.

Anyway, I'll try to show some pics of Hogan and see if I can illustrate this point.

[virge666]

He didn't KEEP his left wrist flat through impact. It's not what you do either.

Anyway, I'll try to show some pics of Hogan and see if I can illustrate this point.

As I said before - with most of the old teachings up even up to Jack. it may or may not be what they do - but it is what it feels like. Pictures just confuse the matter for not just the average player - but the good player as well.

The point is this. The backswing feels like the right forearm rotates in an anti clockwise direction on the backswing. That keeps the right elbow pointed down and loads the right side. On the downswing the left forearm also unwinds in an anticlockwise direction through impact all the way to the follow through.

That is his and many others' swing pattern - whether or not it is a flat left wrist through or at impact doesn't mean shit. The motion is the crux of the matter. If you imitate the motion or at least use it as a guide, it will provide you with a golf swing that not only you can play with - but you can play very well.

Now, lets compare to the average chopper out there. The have very little of the above, instead relying on timing the flip of the left wrist instead of timing the rotation of the left forearm, which is way easier and more stable.

Once more - don't give a shit about the flat left wrist, it is not important. The correct motion through impact is absolutely vital for any kind of consistency. I am not even sure if the whole flat left wrist mythology exists outside of TGM ??

[razaar]

Ray,

I am biased here as I have an Edwin swing pattern, and I don't like this drill. it is just too easy to screw up. And I don't think people will get the anti-clockwise rotation of the right forearm on the backswing. I would hope they do as this really is the key to the drill.

The preset drill or Moe Norman drill IMO is a much better option. The only pre-requisite is to get the hands behind the right shoulder if viewed from the front.

Just get the hand action right, rehearse it and find a place to bring the club down from. Just work backwards from impact.
It is what Nicklaus and Palmer used very successfully, as did Snead, Byron Nelson, Tiger (except for his stint with Hainey) McIlroy, McDowel, Kaymer, Faldo, the list is long. Hogan took the club back closed then rotated open as far as possible into the backswing (but he could see four knuckles of his right hand at address). Early into the downswing he was rotating his left humerus counter clockwise to get a FLW by impact to trap the ball. He was left handed and hit balls a minimum of five hours every day. By the way, Senior takes it back shut and has little club head rotation.

The best way I can explain it is to lean against the top of a table in your golf setup with the arms straight and the hands flat on the table. To turn your shoulders using your hands and arms requires a downwards counter clockwise rotation to get the left shoulder blade in a power position to support the arms. The feet and legs also rotate counter clockwise to turn the pelvis and the trunk to the right as well as provide resistance against swaying. With this concept we have both all the limbs working in the same direction to turn the trunk in a stable position. As Hogan said if we do the reverse of our natural instinct in the golf swing, we will be pretty close to getting it right.

[virge666]

It is what Nicklaus and Palmer used very successfully, as did Snead, Byron Nelson, Tiger (except for his stint with Hainey) McIlroy, McDowel, Kaymer, Faldo, the list is long. Hogan took the club back closed then rotated open as far as possible into the backswing (but he could see four knuckles of his right hand at address). Early into the downswing he was rotating his left humerus counter clockwise to get a FLW by impact to trap the ball. He was left handed and hit balls a minimum of five hours every day. By the way, Senior takes it back shut and has little club head rotation.


They are all good players mate. Anyone with a decent swing will do most drills correctly. That is why they are decent players. You are talking to choppers, who will turn that into a one piece takeaway with no shoulder turn and use their lower half to guide the club.

Look at Puji's attempt at chipping, he has locked his entire upper half and is using his legs to take the club back and swing though. He never gets the club behind his right shoulder and therefore never has a chance.

Just learn the hand action... that is all you have to do, work out how to get your hands to unwind through impact, then add some decent posture and work it out from there.

[Puji]

This is what I feared; I am really trying to focus on the hands/ wrists/ forearms.

But even trying to that; as the goal of this thread there is now the talk of hips, shoulders and legs. This is where previously I have just been overwhelmed and have lost track.

I am going to soldier on with the arms/ forearms angle. Otherwise I will again just drown in body parts and swing thoughts.

Rotate forearm anti clockwise on take away. To state again on downswing. Smother hook the ball. Flat wrist.

[razaar]

Virge
This is a forum not a coaching session. I'm sure members would be happy to know about what the top players do that is different. It is a method that one wouldn't teach a beginner, even seasoned golfers have difficulty getting their head around it. I was fortunate in having a blue print of the process and the time to devote to the work required to learn it. Now I am an expert on the square to square swing.:)

[Jono]

As I said before - with most of the old teachings up even up to Jack. it may or may not be what they do - but it is what it feels like. Pictures just confuse the matter for not just the average player - but the good player as well.

The point is this. The backswing feels like the right forearm rotates in an anti clockwise direction on the backswing. That keeps the right elbow pointed down and loads the right side. On the downswing the left forearm also unwinds in an anticlockwise direction through impact all the way to the follow through.

That is his and many others' swing pattern - whether or not it is a flat left wrist through or at impact doesn't mean shit. The motion is the crux of the matter. If you imitate the motion or at least use it as a guide, it will provide you with a golf swing that not only you can play with - but you can play very well.

Now, lets compare to the average chopper out there. The have very little of the above, instead relying on timing the flip of the left wrist instead of timing the rotation of the left forearm, which is way easier and more stable.

Once more - don't give a shit about the flat left wrist, it is not important. The correct motion through impact is absolutely vital for any kind of consistency. I am not even sure if the whole flat left wrist mythology exists outside of TGM ??

I don't care if we don't call it flat left wrist. We can call it sustaining the line of compression. We can call it lag. Whatever. I didn't have it and I wanted it.

Let's take Puji for example. He's not a chopper but he flips. You tell him to rotate his left forearm though impact all you like but he's still going to flip it. Why? That's not the cause of his flip. He flips because of many reasons but not because he doesn't rotate his left forearm enough. Feel means shit if the other person can't reproduce what Hogan did or what you are trying to get them to do.

[virge666]

Let's take Puji for example. He's not a chopper but he flips. You tell him to rotate his left forearm though impact all you like but he's still going to flip it. Why? That's not the cause of his flip. He flips because of many reasons but not because he doesn't rotate his left forearm enough. Feel means shit if the other person can't reproduce what Hogan did or what you are trying to get them to do.

He flips because he doesn't rotate his hands through impact... it is that simple.

He does not know what a correct impact motion feels like... that is the hard bit, and that is why forums are hard to explain it.

[virge666]

Virge
This is a forum not a coaching session. I'm sure members would be happy to know about what the top players do that is different. It is a method that one wouldn't teach a beginner, even seasoned golfers have difficulty getting their head around it. I was fortunate in having a blue print of the process and the time to devote to the work required to learn it. Now I am an expert on the square to square swing.:)

No - this is a coaching session in a forum.

And it s the first method you would teach a beginner. It is way easier to do it this way then trying to change them later on.

This thread is proof of what happens when golfers are self taught and left to their own devices.

[Jono]

He flips because he doesn't rotate his hands through impact... it is that simple.

He does not know what a correct impact motion feels like... that is the hard bit, and that is why forums are hard to explain it.

He rotates his forearms plenty through impact.

The problem is his left wrist is cupped coming into impact which is precipitated and amplified by his poor body/arms sequencing.

You can make things simple. Doesn't make it any more correct.

[razaar]

He rotates his forearms plenty through impact.

The problem is his left wrist is cupped coming into impact which is precipitated and amplified by his poor body/arms sequencing.

You can make things simple. Doesn't make it any more correct.
You have nailed it Jono. The legs and trunk swing the arms and club in a flail action. The mistake most make is directing all their attention to the arms and wrists taking the engine of the swing for granted. Good players can correct faults in the arm swing with foot pressure. Extra pressure in the right foot advances the hands on the club head, while added pressure on the left foot advances the club head.

[razaar]

No - this is a coaching session in a forum.

And it s the first method you would teach a beginner. It is way easier to do it this way then trying to change them later on.

This thread is proof of what happens when golfers are self taught and left to their own devices.
You and I and 20% of people reading these posts will get it, maybe. The problem with the written word and the golf swing is the difficulty getting the message across even in book format. 20% will get it right on average, the rest will have an interpretation based on their skill level, comprehension and ability skills. A forum is not the best environment to teach or learn the golf swing. Great for entertainment, putting views forward, and gathering info- teaching and learning the intricacies of a swing concept is a dicey proposition on a forum. Take ISG ask a pro forum as an example. :)

[virge666]

He rotates his forearms plenty through impact.




Total utter rubbish. He does nothing of the sort. if he rotated his left forearm he would not have this chicken wing and collaped right side, would he ???



21228

Done properly, and you can look at just about anyone - not just Edwin players. Adam Scott is another who looks exactly the same.

Left arm rotated and hips level. Lower half holding the body and not collapsed. Shoulder slightly open and the club is releasing upwards.


21229

Or for Hogan

1:23 into this video show the left forearm rotating and and the bicep staying on his chest.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lWVYBzBb24U (ignore the intro)

Adam scott Slow mo. left arm rotating and arms folding upwards.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zpcf3Znj32Q

now one more time for you choppers out there.

ROTATE THE LEFT FOREARM and let the club release upwards. it will feel like the back of your palm is pointing at the ground. it wont look like it - but it will feel like it because all you guys have the back of your palm facing the sky.

here is Pamplng in slow mo from behind - just have a look at his left wrist and how it works.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tG_lyULaErU

[virge666]

You and I and 20% of people reading these posts will get it, maybe. The problem with the written word and the golf swing is the difficulty getting the message across even in book format. 20% will get it right on average, the rest will have an interpretation based on their skill level, comprehension and ability skills. A forum is not the best environment to teach or learn the golf swing. Great for entertainment, putting views forward, and gathering info- teaching and learning the intricacies of a swing concept is a dicey proposition on a forum. Take ISG ask a pro forum as an example. :)

Couldn't agree more.

[virge666]

You have nailed it Jono. The legs and trunk swing the arms and club in a flail action. The mistake most make is directing all their attention to the arms and wrists taking the engine of the swing for granted. Good players can correct faults in the arm swing with foot pressure. Extra pressure in the right foot advances the hands on the club head, while added pressure on the left foot advances the club head.

or . . .

You can just forget the body for 1/2 an hour and get the hand action right with an impact bag.

[razaar]

Maybe, it still doesn't guarantee the club head beating the hands to the ball during a shot, which is what a flip is. Expanding on Jono's point - impact in a good golf swing has the player's COM opposite the ball position. This places 80% + of the weight over the left foot. Flippers have most of their weight evenly distributed or favouring the back foot at impact. What happens is the backswing plane also becomes the forward swing plane. Weight has shifted back or even forward in the backswing (which is worse) and stays there. Probably because they are told to stay behind the ball. James CC is a case in point with the driver swing he posted. It is important to shift the COM across to the ball position before the shoulders unwind, creating an inside to out to inside path through the ball position. The swing axis is what stays behind the ball, a point in the middle of the shoulders. People see the left hip move across in a squat move and try to imitate it by using the hips. Wrong move, the work is done by the right instep and ankle, set up by the correct foot and leg work during the backswing.

Plain as mud?

[virge666]

Maybe, it still doesn't guarantee the club head beating the hands to the ball during a shot, which is what a flip is.


It doesn't have to be a guarantee. it is simply the correct way.

The only guarantee is that if you do not rotate your left forearm, you WILL flip it.



What happens is the backswing plane also becomes the forward swing plane. Weight has shifted back or even forward in the backswing (which is worse) and stays there. Probably because they are told to stay behind the ball. James CC is a case in point with the driver swing he posted. It is important to shift the COM across to the ball position before the shoulders unwind, creating an inside to out to inside path through the ball position. The swing axis is what stays behind the ball, a point in the middle of the shoulders. People see the left hip move across in a squat move and try to imitate it by using the hips. Wrong move, the work is done by the right instep and ankle, set up by the correct foot and leg work during the backswing.


yeah - yeah... that is all well and good. Still doesn't change the fact that to not flip it, you have to rotate the left forearm.

Seriously Ray, this is golf impact 101. You educate the hands first. There is no point talking about weight transfer, and unwinding of shoulders when all you have to do is pick the bloody club up with no body action.

Pick up club, dump on back of ball with left forearm rotation leading with the handle of the club.

Next problem.

[Jono]

virge, he rotates his forearms plenty enough not to flip. not to do your drill or to follow your method. Yours is not the only correct way and dare I say, not the best way either.



Total utter rubbish. He does nothing of the sort. if he rotated his left forearm he would not have this chicken wing and collaped right side, would he ???



21228

Done properly, and you can look at just about anyone - not just Edwin players. Adam Scott is another who looks exactly the same.

Left arm rotated and hips level. Lower half holding the body and not collapsed. Shoulder slightly open and the club is releasing upwards.


21229

Or for Hogan

1:23 into this video show the left forearm rotating and and the bicep staying on his chest.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lWVYBzBb24U (ignore the intro)

Adam scott Slow mo. left arm rotating and arms folding upwards.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zpcf3Znj32Q

now one more time for you choppers out there.

ROTATE THE LEFT FOREARM and let the club release upwards. it will feel like the back of your palm is pointing at the ground. it wont look like it - but it will feel like it because all you guys have the back of your palm facing the sky.

here is Pamplng in slow mo from behind - just have a look at his left wrist and how it works.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tG_lyULaErU

[Puji]

These kinds of threads are brilliant!

Speaking about the videos I posted - my goal was to stop my flip. It doesn't look like I am flipping - regardless of what my forearms/ hips/ shoulders/ chicken wings are doing.

I'm not saying I won't work on the left forearm - because I will it is my only focus at the moment - but somehow I am finding a way to lead the club into impact with some shaft lean at impact. I was never able to do this as easily. Even with these 30m chips. Previously I would have to set the forward shat lean at address and have the ball off my back foot.

I have found a way through v's explanation not to flip. So it must be a step in the right direction.

It may be weak/ flail/ clumsy/ inefficient. But I want to start with the basic impact - Downward strike, deloft club square club face.

But; this does pose an interesting question; from the video- I am not flipping - i sont think anyone is arguing that the video shows me flipping. Does that mean my left forearm is not rotating anti clockwise at all! Or just not enough?

Forget body for the moment. Baby steps fellas.

[virge666]

virge, he rotates his forearms plenty enough not to flip. not to do your drill or to follow your method. Yours is not the only correct way and dare I say, not the best way either.

FFS, yeah mate - you are totally correct. all good players have a low right hip and a chicken winged left arm.

Would love to see your good player with that action.

[mrbluu]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wYdDd9xu0ms

I found this video by Brad Hughes, Virge is this what you mean about forearm rotation??

[virge666]

I'm not saying I won't work on the left forearm - because I will it is my only focus at the moment - but somehow I am finding a way to lead the club into impact with some shaft lean at impact. I was never able to do this as easily. Even with these 30m chips. Previously I would have to set the forward shat lean at address and have the ball off my back foot.


And now we hit the crux of the matter. On the video you are flipping it. You just have you just trust me on that. Like others here - you dont know what flipping it or what causes it. You think you can see it on video, and you can, but you need to look at the whole picture not just the hands.

Your going to have to wait a while... I have to finish "End of Month" for November and I will get some videos from last week and do a video for you on flipping. I will even dig up some vids of me flipping it after i came out of hospital and what it looks like now.

We also have a guy at the range who has the best over the top flip you have seen in years. I will post some before and after shots of him too.

I will try and get it done on Thursday night or Friday morning.

In the meantime - get me some videos of you down the line and in front with a 7 iron.

[virge666]

I found this video by Brad Hughes, Virge is this what you mean about forearm rotation??

Sort of - but too much info to start with. The slow mo at 9:30 are good to know.

The best way to do it is to grab a club in your left hand and hit balls with just your left hand - using left forearm rotation. (grip down a bit to make the club lighter)

That really is all you need to start with. the video you posted sort of puts all of it together - and is not much use just yet.

[mrbluu]

Hey Virge was I was hitting some balls in my back yard from about hip position just using rotation of the forearms (It certainly felt that way at least) with a mixture of left hand and both hands and I sort of get it. Hopefully this gives me the consistency that I need.

[mrbluu]

Also when posting this to get tips to help my mate, I never thought I too was a flipper.....

[Toolish]

And now we hit the crux of the matter. On the video you are flipping it. You just have you just trust me on that. Like others here - you dont know what flipping it or what causes it. You think you can see it on video, and you can, but you need to look at the whole picture not just the hands.


You seriously think he is flipping it there? Or do you mean with that action as he moves up the tree it will be a flip. At impact and just after the hands are leading the clubhead which is travelling down and out...how is that a flip?

Now, he has finished in a bit of a contorted position with a held off type look and he needs to rotate the forearms to move up the chain, but as a basic chip motion there is no flip there.

[virge666]

You seriously think he is flipping it there? Or do you mean with that action as he moves up the tree it will be a flip. At impact and just after the hands are leading the clubhead which is travelling down and out...how is that a flip?

Now, he has finished in a bit of a contorted position with a held off type look and he needs to rotate the forearms to move up the chain, but as a basic chip motion there is no flip there.

That is all flip mate, and nothing but the flip.

1. Not travelling down and out, the low point will vary with each swing.
2. The body is a contorted, unbalanced mess.
3. The club has been held off, or steered through impact.
4. it is a bloody awful chipping position and is not the basic motion as taught my TGM.
5. if he had done it properly, his clubhead would be 2 feet behind where it is now and the left bicep woudl be on the chest.

Dont' believe me - go and look at Yoda or Manzella and his basic motion videos...

The fact that the hands are still leading the club mean nothing. As Jono says, you make that swing longer and it will flip straight over.

TGM lesson #1 - Educate the hands.

What he is doing there is not educating the hands - he is doing what he thinks it should look like, and as such, is a contrived idea of a flat left wrist at impact. You HAVE to release the clubhead, even Phil's "Hinge and Hold" releases the clubhead because his left forearm rotates and drag his grip through impact.

Stop looking at the impact position and start looking at the motion. lets call it a flipping motion and not a "flip", that way we can work out the difference.

[Puji]

Thanks Virge!

I will head down to the course tonight and hit some balls with video 7 iron FO and DTL. I know it will be terrible and I know I will flip with a full swing - but I am at a complete loss as to how I could possibly be flipping in the video I posted.

Maybe my definition of flipping is wrong - but to me - my definition is allowing the left wrist to break/ cup/ cast- which in turn puts the hands behind the clubhead at impact.

That definitely is not happening in that video. All I know is that my hands are leading the clubhead.

This is complicated. But I'm going to keep at it. Short term pain.

[Puji]

Oh and the finish is so awkward because if I actually allow my hands to keep going; I will put a hole in the roof or the window behind me.

That is my consciously trying to stop myself from ruining my apartment. I will try and take some video outside today.

Re: flipping motion: of course I have a flipping motion. I have had one for the two years I have been playing golf. It's not going to disappear after 30minutes of chipping.

I know that. I think we have to remember that his is step 1 of 1000 on the way towards a better swing. It's about whether there is improvement. Rather than whether it is perfect.

So I'm prepared to do whatever I need to; to make sure it's in the right direction. I will get those videos ASAP.

[razaar]

Virge
Is Lee Westwood a flipper?

[Jono]

FFS, yeah mate - you are totally correct. all good players have a low right hip and a chicken winged left arm.

Would love to see your good player with that action.

chicken wing is not caused by lack of left forearm rotation. chicken wing is basically lack of internal rotation at the left shoulder joint and holding the left arm in abducted position. I can chicken wing it more that Puji and rotate the heck of the left forearm.

But this is beside the point. Puji, you can educate your hands all you want. But if you get your body in the wrong position and moving in wrong sequence, you will flip it unless you start holding it off. You want to sustain the lag through correct kinematic sequence and good body positions.

[Toolish]

That is all flip mate, and nothing but the flip.

1. Not travelling down and out, the low point will vary with each swing.
2. The body is a contorted, unbalanced mess.
3. The club has been held off, or steered through impact.
4. it is a bloody awful chipping position and is not the basic motion as taught my TGM.
5. if he had done it properly, his clubhead would be 2 feet behind where it is now and the left bicep woudl be on the chest.

Dont' believe me - go and look at Yoda or Manzella and his basic motion videos...

The fact that the hands are still leading the club mean nothing. As Jono says, you make that swing longer and it will flip straight over.

TGM lesson #1 - Educate the hands.

What he is doing there is not educating the hands - he is doing what he thinks it should look like, and as such, is a contrived idea of a flat left wrist at impact. You HAVE to release the clubhead, even Phil's "Hinge and Hold" releases the clubhead because his left forearm rotates and drag his grip through impact.

Stop looking at the impact position and start looking at the motion. lets call it a flipping motion and not a "flip", that way we can work out the difference.

honestly, I think you are asking a bit much of the bloke. Maybe it is because I have been through the same thing.

As a first attempt at stopping a flip I thought he did ok. More work to do for sure but everyone is shooting the guy down when there are good signs there of working towards the right result. Yoda has hit about 4,000,000 basic motion chip shots, not a fair comparison, and Manzella is a egocentric ****wit so I don't care how good his basic motion is.

[virge666]

honestly, I think you are asking a bit much of the bloke. Maybe it is because I have been through the same thing.


Could be right there.

But we will see what happens. I have been doing a lot of work with Dotty, TonySun and a few others. The hard bit is the trust part. Most people do not believe just how much your left forearm over through impact, so they just steer it because they think it is correct and they never get better.

It will come down to how well i can explain the uncocking of the left wrist due to the rotation of the left forearm. That will be the killer. Just not sure how I can video it and explain it. once you can understand that the left wrist does not bend, it simply un-cocks, then I think we may have something.

I also plan to not use the word dorsi-flection... :) :)

[virge666]

But this is beside the point. Puji, you can educate your hands all you want. But if you get your body in the wrong position and moving in wrong sequence, you will flip it unless you start holding it off. You want to sustain the lag through correct kinematic sequence and good body positions.

If you get the hands right your body will get into the something like the right position through impact. We can then tune it later.

We all watch the golf - there are numerous body positions out there, whose to say which is right and wrong ? The moral is that they all have similar hand actions through the ball. Not the same - but very similar.

It can be chicken and egg stuff, but on a forum, the hands are the only way to go.

[virge666]

As a first attempt at stopping a flip I thought he did ok. More work to do for sure but everyone is shooting the guy down when there are good signs there of working towards the right result

i should answer this.

There is a right way and a wrong way to do it. There is no inbetween, nice start, good signs bit. You either have the action or you dont.

if i was just helping a bloke out on a range once - you might sort of say - "yeah mate thats better...", but then in a months time when he goes back looking through the forum, he will come back with "You said you liked this" & "I thought you meant" sort of answers.

We are going to have to fix it sometime... so we may as well get it right from the outset. Because if he doesn't get this right, then the body wont be right, the flight will be wrong and he will just chuck every chip he ever has.

The left forearm rotates and that causes the left wrist to uncock. We have to get that bit down pat first.

[Jono]

If you get the hands right your body will get into the something like the right position through impact. We can then tune it later.

We all watch the golf - there are numerous body positions out there, whose to say which is right and wrong ? The moral is that they all have similar hand actions through the ball. Not the same - but very similar.

It can be chicken and egg stuff, but on a forum, the hands are the only way to go.

I disagree. I've been down that path. You can get some good results initially but it doesn't work long term.

Hands can't fight the forces involved in the swing. If you make bad movements with the body and arms, it's very hard for the hand to do anything different than to flip.

there are some pros that flip. Not as badly as us hackers but nevertheless they flip it. If you look at their body/arm sequence, it's usually out of whack. Brian Gay is a great example. He's Yoda's disciple but flips the shit out of the ball. Don't you think Yoda taught him to "educate his hands"?.

BTW, you can play to great level with a flip. Gay is a good example ... he won a PGA tour event with it.

[Puji]

I am more than happy to be the guinea pig for this thread.

Maybe I should come up to Sydney and spend some time with you Virge, some dollars in your pocket in exchange for you to work your magic!

Either way; I will try and get some more baseline videos up tonight!!!

I love the criticism!!!

[virge666]

Brian Gay a flipper... That is hilarious.

What pulls are you taking?

[Jono]

Brian Gay a flipper... That is hilarious.

What pulls are you taking?

Gay is one of the biggest flippers on the PGA tour. His hips stall and he just pushes his hands at the ball.

[Jono]

Brian Gay's Downswing


21259
Gay starts his downswing without the powerful "squat" move. His right leg stays internally rotated and rotates together with the pelvis. Left leg stays internally roated as well. If you look at powerful swingers like Dustin Johnson and Sam Snead, both left and right legs externally rotate and abduct at the start of the swing (in simple language, knees separate and start flaring out away from each other)


21260

His hip rotation is starting to stall already and he has already lost a significant amount of the lag.

21261 21262

I've shown down the line view as well to show how much his hips stall. The hips have stopped rotating and now he is extending his hip angle (ie standing up). By now, he has pretty much lost all his lag.


21257 21258
Now to impact. His hip rotation has completely stalled. Look at the down the line view and see how little hip rotation there is from the last frame. He just stands up and straightens his right arm to slap at the ball.

[virge666]

I honestly don't know WTF you are talking about. there is no flip in that swing. Brian is a closed face player and he uses his lower body rather aggressively to get the clubface back to square and through the shot. His lower half never stalls.

It isn't a powerful action by any means - but if you think that is a flipping motion, your eyes are painted on.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVoifaQ27HU

[Jono]

I honestly don't know WTF you are talking about. there is no flip in that swing. Brian is a closed face player and he uses his lower body rather aggressively to get the clubface back to square and through the shot. His lower half never stalls.

It isn't a powerful action by any means - but if you think that is a flipping motion, your eyes are painted on.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVoifaQ27HU

Virge, he has lost the lag early. It's a flip. Get over it.



...and he uses his lower body rather aggressively to get the clubface back to square and through the shot. His lower half never stalls.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVoifaQ27HU

You're kidding me, right? Are you blind or are you just refusing to see?

Look.

From here 21266 to here 21267, there is bugger all hip rotation. There is only hip extension. It's a weak arms/hands slap at the ball.

Compare with Ben Hogan.

21268 21269

His hips fire through impact and lead the arms/hands/club through impact.

[BroKar]

Isn't a flip when the club face gets in front of the hands at impact?

[Jono]

Isn't a flip when the club face gets in front of the hands at impact?

Not necessarily.

Flip is basically power leakage or breakage of kinetic chain.

I could tee the ball 3 inches high with the ball way forward in my stance and have the clubhead slightly in front of the hands at impact but if there is no power leakage, it is not a flip.

Puji is a flipper because his body stalls through impact and he flips with his arms and hands. He could put the ball further back in his stance and have the hands ahead of the clubhead at impact, but it's still a flip.

[razaar]

Jono
Once the club head passes the hands it is decelerating. If this occurs before or at impact it is a flip because the right hand has overtaken the left hand. I agree with everything else you have said on this topic, except this point. What is the wrist action for a high draw?

[Toolish]

Not necessarily.

Flip is basically power leakage or breakage of kinetic chain.

I could tee the ball 3 inches high with the ball way forward in my stance and have the clubhead slightly in front of the hands at impact but if there is no power leakage, it is not a flip.

Puji is a flipper because his body stalls through impact and he flips with his arms and hands. He could put the ball further back in his stance and have the hands ahead of the clubhead at impact, but it's still a flip.

I have never heard that as a definition for a flip!

A flip is bending the wrist and the clubhead passing the hands. If you tee the ball forward and up, and don't flip the clubhead will still be behind the hands if you don't flip it.

Power leakage in the pivot liek you are talknig about can cause a flip, but in itself is not a flip.

[Puji]

Toolish: you described it how I would; but I think out minds are too simple. These guys come up with all kinda of things - i.e: you can not flip but have a flipping motion.

A lot of it goes above my head to be honest; but I am trying to learn. It's a lot it absorb.

[PeteyD]

Puji, most of the time when these guys go on I feel like Charlie Brown in school - 'BLAH BLAH BLAH' but as you have discovered, every now and then a nugget drops out that is worth a lot. To me what Virge has said about hand action (and he has said it before) seems to work. And the thing about getting too strong with the grip. I have started hitting the ball well again, and have my little draw back. I need to tattoo some of this stuff to my arm so I remember!

[Toolish]

Toolish: you described it how I would; but I think out minds are too simple. These guys come up with all kinda of things - i.e: you can not flip but have a flipping motion.

A lot of it goes above my head to be honest; but I am trying to learn. It's a lot it absorb.

I always though simple was better! I feel like we are coming from a similar spot in regards to how our swings are (with regards to the flip etc) and honestly when I was working through it all the talk of firing the hips so as not to flip, a flipping motion, etc, etc just messed with my head.

Once you can hit the chip shots you are hitting without thinking of it (thousands of balls) then we worry about what TGM calls the finish swivel, which is where the club gets above the hands on the follow through and move onto more half swings than chip shots. As you do that your pivot will have to change a bit, you will learn to tuck the left elbow in a bit past impact and the position you hit won't look so forced and will look more golf like.

BTW, if you are interested in where I am coming from have a look here http://forums.iseekgolf.com/forums/18/topics/9954

Note : The attachments are there but for some reason lost their extensions, I think they are all WMV.

[Jono]

OK. I'll illustrate one instance where Brokar's definition of the flip doesn't apply.

21277

21278

The top picture shows with hands behind the clubhead. However, this is not a flip.

The bottom picture shows hands ahead of the clubhead. However this is a flip.

[Pieface]

I probably shouldn't read these type of threads before going to play golf :o

[popper81]

OK. I'll illustrate one instance where Brokar's definition of the flip doesn't apply.

21277

21278

The top picture shows with hands behind the clubhead. However, this is not a flip.

The bottom picture shows hands ahead of the clubhead. However this is a flip.

Jono,

You have lost your shit.... what you have there is: 2 triangles, 4 circles and 2 straight lines.

[Puji]

2 bold straight lines*

[Jono]

Jono,

You have lost your shit.... what you have there is: 2 triangles, 4 circles and 2 straight lines.

You never use stick drawing? :roll:

here's Popper ...

21281

:wink:

[Steve57]

You never use stick drawing? :roll:

here's Popper ...

21281

:wink:

He is taller than that Jono!

[Puji]

Ha! Not even I would go that far.

Anyway; let's try and keep this on topic!

Ironic coming from me, I know - bit this have been a great thread for choppers like me!

[popper81]

You never use stick drawing? :roll:

here's Popper ...

21281

:wink:

That is a wee bit rude, Jono.... Just as well you're much nicer in real life.

Carry on.... I will let you continue to confuse the entire ozgolf population with mumbo jumbo, and snake oil.

[Jono]

That is a wee bit rude, Jono.... Just as well you're much nicer in real life.

Carry on.... I will let you continue to confuse the entire ozgolf population with mumbo jumbo, and snake oil.

Sorry Popper. Since you knocked my stick drawing, I thought you would take my jab back without taking offence but I guess I crossed the line ... :oops:

FWIW, it's not snake oil if you care to try to understand it.

[Yossarian]

Is this a flip Jono?

http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/6757/87897099.png (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/401/87897099.png/)

[popper81]

Sorry Popper. Since you knocked my stick drawing, I thought you would take my jab back without taking offence but I guess I crossed the line ... :oops:

FWIW, it's not snake oil if you care to try to understand it.

Hahaha...

Jono, I am fine.... just playing the victim, no feelings hurt.

FWIW, I do understand it, but I think at times, threads like this do more harm then good for the entire ozgolf poplulation... ppl grab little snippets that makes sense to them, run with their 'interpretation' of it, and are no better off. I believe coaching is essential to develop your game, and I have somebody I see a few times a year. In saying that, threads like this, are great reads, and I enjoy it when yourself, Virge and Ray duke it out. I think alot of us appreciate the effort you all go to try and help out.

[mrbluu]

Hahaha...

it, but I think at times, threads like this do more harm then good for the entire ozgolf poplulation...

I started this to get advice for a friend and now I'm convinced I'm a flipper.......this is not going to end well but it's a journey I'm will to take to improve my golf.

[Toolish]

OK. I'll illustrate one instance where Brokar's definition of the flip doesn't apply.

21277

21278

The top picture shows with hands behind the clubhead. However, this is not a flip.

The bottom picture shows hands ahead of the clubhead. However this is a flip.

I guess our definition of 'clubhead behind the hands' is different. Extend the line that is the left arm in your stick figure and the clubhead is behind that...that is head behind hands for me.21282

[virge666]

I am confused now... you're all nuts. Have you guys defined the flip yet ?

Cause I see and read is the result of a flip.

You still have not said what a flip is.

[PeteyD]

Nope I have no idea what a flip is.

[Toolish]

I am confused now... you're all nuts. Have you guys defined the flip yet ?

Cause I see and read is the result of a flip.

You still have not said what a flip is.

To me : If the clubhead is past the red line I drew in my stick figure at or before impact then it is a flip.

What is your definition?

[virge666]

Flip is basically power leakage or breakage of kinetic chain.


If the clubhead is past the red line I drew in my stick figure at or before impact then it is a flip.


A flip is bending the wrist and the clubhead passing the hands.


These are all what the flip causes...

But what is the Flip ?

(Where is the green sheep ? , Do you know who sunk the boat ?)

[Toolish]

Do you know who sunk the boat ?

The mouse....

I don't see them all as causes...educate me.

What is your definition?

[virge666]

Knee deep in reconciliation... will get to it tonight.

I am sure the others will chime in with something . . .

(Excellent work on the boat . . .) :)

[razaar]

This thread is still going?? I thought it was done and dusted. A flip is when the club head makes contact with the ball as the right hand is flipping past the left hand. In other words the resistance of the left wrist has broken down under the power of the right wrist. The left wrist extends back on the forearm because the club head is on an outside to in path into the ball. Players who rotate the forearms clockwise in the takeaway and control the backswing with the right arm are candidates for this type of contact. As are players with poor balance, quick backswings and under shoulder turns. If the lower body stalls too early a flip is usually the result. The shoulders opening before the weight shifts across to the target foot throws the club head outside the plane line - the club head beats the hands to the ball because the conservation of angular momentum is too strong for the wrists, a flip.

[TheNuclearOne]

This thread is still going?? I thought it was done and dusted. A flip is when the club head makes contact with the ball as the right hand is flipping past the left hand. In other words the resistance of the left wrist has broken down under the power of the right wrist. The left wrist extends back on the forearm because the club head is on an outside to in path into the ball. Players who rotate the forearms clockwise in the takeaway and control the backswing with the right arm are candidates for this type of contact. As are players with poor balance, quick backswings and under shoulder turns. If the lower body stalls too early a flip is usually the result. The shoulders opening before the weight shifts across to the target foot throws the club head outside the plane line - the club head beats the hands to the ball because the conservation of angular momentum is too strong for the wrists, a flip.

You can very definately still flip coming from the inside.

[razaar]

I should add that players who hit at the ball rather than through the ball un consciously quit before impact. Players whose swing thoughts are focused on the backswing, don't have time to concentrate on the forward swing especially that waist to waist area through impact. There are more reasons - only I am suffering from a heavy Xmas breakup at the Club - the brain is not working too clear.:)

[razaar]

You can very definately still flip coming from the inside.
I'll let you explain that one, Johnno.

[virge666]

This thread is still going?? I thought it was done and dusted. A flip is when the club head makes contact with the ball as the right hand is flipping past the left hand. In other words the resistance of the left wrist has broken down under the power of the right wrist. The left wrist extends back on the forearm because the club head is on an outside to in path into the ball. Players who rotate the forearms clockwise in the takeaway and control the backswing with the right arm are candidates for this type of contact. As are players with poor balance, quick backswings and under shoulder turns. If the lower body stalls too early a flip is usually the result. The shoulders opening before the weight shifts across to the target foot throws the club head outside the plane line - the club head beats the hands to the ball because the conservation of angular momentum is too strong for the wrists, a flip.

You have a dead set amazing ability to make the simple so bloody complex.

Does Ray's answer solve the description of the flip for anyone ?

[Jono]

I'll let you explain that one, Johnno.

Nuke is correct. Not only can you flip swinging inside out, you actually have more tendency to flip if you swing inside out.

[virge666]

Nuke is correct. Not only can you flip swinging inside out, you actually have more tendency to flip if you swing inside out.

Interesting . . . why do you say that ?

[Jono]

Interesting . . . why do you say that ?

Let me answer your question with a question.


In a powerful swing, in which direction are your hands moving at impact if your clubhead is moving level and towards the target?

[virge666]

In a powerful swing, in which direction are your hands moving at impact if your clubhead is moving level and towards the target?

They are rotating anticlockwise.

[timah!]

They are rotating anticlockwise.

Do you ever get that feeling of déjà vu?

[Jono]

They are rotating anticlockwise.

I don't think you understand the question.

Let's assume that at the moment of impact, the clubhead is travelling towards the target, level of the ground.

Now which direction are the hands travelling AT THE MOMENT OF IMPACT? I don't care about how the hands are oriented or whether they are rotating anticlockwise or whatever. Just tell me the direction.

[virge666]

Now which direction are the hands travelling AT THE MOMENT OF IMPACT? I don't care about how the hands are oriented or whether they are rotating anticlockwise or whatever. Just tell me the direction.

Sorry mate - dont understand the question nor the relationship to the thread, but, I am sure Ray will have an answer based on some technical book from the 1920's.

But at a guess - I will say "The right of the target" as the club is lagging behind the uncocked wrist.

How did i do ?

[Jono]

You're incorrect but let me explain why tomorrow with some pics.

[virge666]

You're incorrect but let me explain why tomorrow with some pics.

How about "Left of target" - it was my next guess . . .

[Iain]

Up and in.

[Jono]

Give me 5 minutes and I'll explain.

But the answer is LEFT and UP.

[BroKar]

Jono a flip is when the wrist break and puts the club head infront of the hands at impact yeah?

[Jono]

Up and in.

Well done. Obviously you've heard about parametric acceleration ... ;)

[Jono]

Here's a quote from Miura's paper on parametric acceleration.

The inward pull motion at the impact stage of the golf swing commonly observed with expert players was investigated in this paper. First, a model of nonconcentrated rotation was studied. It was found that, for a mass rotating around a pivot, if the pivot is moved in the direction opposite to the direction of centrifugal force of the mass, the kinetic energy of the mass could be increased. The increase is a result of the mutual action of the two governing factors of the system, which are the centripetal force and the pull velocity. A special type of equation of motion governs this phenomenon

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/store/10.1046/j.1460-2687.2001.00071.x/asset/equation/SPEN_071_m17.gif?v=1&t=hanuv69z&af74ab7d

, and the parameter in the second term of the left-hand side of the equation ξ˙ characterizes its behaviour. The phenomenon is called the parametric acceleration, following the parametric excitation of vibration problems also governed by a similar equation. Second, the golf swing was investigated using the above finding. In the golf swing, the club is accelerated by the hands in a tangential direction. Theoretically, the additional acceleration of the clubhead could be achieved by pulling the club in the radial direction at impact stage, assuming that the centrifugal force of the clubhead is fully developed. To test this idea, an emulation using a modified double-link model was carried out. It was shown that the clubhead velocity could be increased substantially by the inward pull motion of the club at the impact stage, at which point no other means of acceleration is available. Discussions include the actual movement of the body for the inward pull, the efficiency of the pull motion and application to other sports.

[virge666]

OK gents, back on thread. Here is a short video on the Flip I did tonight. Firstly a definition.

The FLIP is releasing the club by bending the left wrist instead of rotating the left forearm and uncocking the left wrist.

Doesn't matter what causes the flip, what it looks like, whether the clubface overtakes the hands. It is the flipping motion that defines the flip not the resulting positions.

Why is this important?

1. Because you get poor bastards like Toolish trying to fix what it looks like as opposed to fixing the cause of the problem.
2. You get guys doing everything they can to look like he has a flat left wrist at impact when he still has the flipping motion, which does not help.
3. If you don’t know what causes the problem - how the hell are you supposed to fix it ?
4. You get people trying to get that flat left wrist by manipulating their pivot will all kinds of contortions.

Once again - it isn't what it looks like - it the motion that defines the flip.

When you run the video on YouTube - bump up the resolution to 720 for best effect. Apologies for my shitty camera.

Enjoy.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYsniXZn4Qo

[virge666]

Up and in.

But TGM says down and out... and Homer Kelly is never wrong. ;)

Jono, understand what you mean now and totally agree. One only has to look at Dustin Johnson to see it in action.

[razaar]

Depends on shaft lean, Virge. The more shaft lean the more left the forearms move inside. The left hand turns under - it is always the forearm that controls the clubface, after the ball rebounds off the face. The hands are part of the club with the role of club security. The wrists are the medium for the transfer of power. Abe Mitchell wrote this in 1930 and has been rewritten in the DPlane/New Ball flight laws.
The left hand turning under with the hands following or being pulled by the clubhead during the through swing keeps the loft down resulting in a longer ball flight.

[virge666]

Sorry Ray,

What question is that answering ?

I don't know where you are coming from there...

[Jono]

It looks like I don't have to show many pictures. There's a youtube video outlining what I mean.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1O7sTbC_JKE

Here's Gay in comparison.

21323 21324

Almost no parametric acceleration. You can verify this from the down the line view as well. Powerful players hands are on the way in at impact. Gays hands are going down the line.

[virge666]

Almost no parametric acceleration. You can verify this from the down the line view as well. Powerful players hands are on the way in at impact. Gays hands are going down the line.

OK, So Gay is not a powerful swinger... he still doesn't flip his hands.

WTF has Parametric Acceleration have to do with flipping ?

The term threadjack comes to mind...

[timah!]

OK gents, back on thread. Here is a short video on the Flip I did tonight. Firstly a definition.

The FLIP is releasing the club by bending the left wrist instead of rotating the left forearm and uncocking the left wrist.

Doesn't matter what causes the flip, what it looks like, whether the clubface overtakes the hands. It is the flipping motion that defines the flip not the resulting positions.

Why is this important?

1. Because you get poor bastards like Toolish trying to fix what it looks like as opposed to fixing the cause of the problem.
2. You get guys doing everything they can to look like he has a flat left wrist at impact when he still has the flipping motion, which does not help.
3. If you don’t know what causes the problem - how the hell are you supposed to fix it ?
4. You get people trying to get that flat left wrist by manipulating their pivot will all kinds of contortions.

Once again - it isn't what it looks like - it the motion that defines the flip.

When you run the video on YouTube - bump up the resolution to 720 for best effect. Apologies for my shitty camera.

Enjoy.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYsniXZn4Qo

Virge,

When will "The Virge Method" be available on DVD? Can I find it online and will the RRP be $29.95?
Cheers.
Tim

:D

[Jono]

Virge, it is not TGM. Homer sort of mentions it with his "endless belt effect" but doesn't explain the science.

Watched your video. Yep, it will help extreme flippers at the start but not long term. Similar to Manzella's "never hook again" and "confessions of a flipper" stuff.

It's only part of the equation.

[Jono]

Virge,

When will "The Virge Method" be available on DVD? Can I find it online and will the RRP be $29.95?
Cheers.
Tim

:D

Just check the colour of your nose for me ... yep, it's brown.


;)

[Jono]

OK, So Gay is not a powerful swinger... he still doesn't flip his hands.

WTF has Parametric Acceleration have to do with flipping ?

The term threadjack comes to mind...

He flips. I don't care for your definition of "left wrist bending vs rotating". Nothing to do with it. You can flip whist rotating the left wrist.

Flipping is power leakage and breakage of kinetic chain.

Gay's hips stall and he flips with his arms and hands.

[Pieface]

Hit some sweet drives today using "feelings" I garnered from this thread. Funnily enough though I think it was returning my left hand grip to neutral and getting my left shoulder less open to the target line that delivered the result. I hit a few drives around the 250 mark where I struggled to make 200-210 just on Tuesday last week with a gross slice

[BroKar]

Your version of flipping Jono is different to everyone else on the planet but virge is wrong?

[virge666]

Virge, it is not TGM. Homer sort of mentions it with his "endless belt effect" but doesn't explain the science.


You missed the emoticon - taking the piss. I am not much of a TGM disciple, I like it is a reference every now and then - but I am not a fan boi.

Gary Edwin was talking about working the club up and folding the left side back in the early 90's. That's why it sort of struck a chord. The PGA teaching summit he did a decade ago was when he got kicked out for saying extension was a crock of shit.

:)

Peter Cowan teaches the same thing as does Rory's coach.

[virge666]

He flips. I don't care for your definition of "left wrist bending vs rotating". Nothing to do with it. You can flip whist rotating the left wrist.

Flipping is power leakage and breakage of kinetic chain.

Gay's hips stall and he flips with his arms and hands.

No Flipping is Flipping... and power leakage is power leakage and breakage of the kinetic chain is ... breakage of the kinetic chain.

This is why we have "words" to describe "Stuff"

You could say that the motion of flipping is a breakage of the kinetic chain that results in a power leakage...

[timah!]

Just check the colour of your nose for me ... yep, it's brown.


;)

Maybe, but I'm picking up what V is putting down.

To me, it makes sense, and he presents it in 3 syllables or less. Win.

[Jono]

Here's my quick recipe for a powerful anti-flip swing.

1) understand what power leakage is. I'll do a video on this some time.

2) learn first half of the downswing. try to get into a squat position (ie. abduction, external rotation at both hip joints and flexion at the knees ... or simply just picture Snead's squat) during the first half of the downswing and get your right elbow IN FRONT of your right hip (through external rotation and adduction at the right shoulder joint). The feeling at the start of the downswing is that the two elbows are squeezing together. This will tend to make your left wrist go from slightly cupped to more bowed position.

3) learn the second half of the downswing. The most important thing heading towards impact is NOT TO STALL the hips. I played golf for many years with stalled hips through impact. No matter how much I tried to "educate the hands" and tried not to flip, I flipped. It's when I leared the parametric acceleration (you don't have to know this term) that I stopped flipping.

The hips led the shoulders which lead the arms etc during the first half of the swing. Now, if you stopped there, you'll flip. The hips have to lead again during the second half of the downswing. Pro's commonly say that the hips clear through impact. This happens from the ground up. From the squat position, your legs are now going to adduct and internally rotate. (ie knees will move towards each other in a "knocked knees" kind of way). This will rotate the pelvis towards the target. Then the shoulders will rotate. The left shoulder moves UP and IN which then causes the hands to move UP and IN. The feeling is that of pulling the butt end of the club UP and IN whilst snapping your hips open.

Is it hard to learn this? Yes, it takes time. I'm not there yet, but I'm getting there.

If you want a quick solution, do what virge says on his video. However, if you want a long term "flipless" and powerful swing, learn to sequence your swing.

[Jono]

Maybe, but I'm picking up what V is putting down.

To me, it makes sense, and he presents it in 3 syllables or less. Win.

OK. But hopefully you'll venture a bit further ...

BTW, you use parametric acceleration when you twirl a stone at the end of a string.

[razaar]

Virge
Your vid is a commentary on what everybody can see. What we see are in consequential movements that are the result of deliberate movements the player does that the camera can't pick up. The rotation of the arms and wrists may not be a deliberate movement by the player. The rotation may not be rotation at all especially if the elbows are pointing towards the ground. The square to square swing (tiger is an example) has deliberate pronation pressure exerted by the player in the left forearm from takeaway through to the finish. This is a common swing on tour. What we see is not what the player is deliberately doing. In actual fact in all efficient swings the arms play a minor role to the lower body and the pivot. The grip is key because it all happens in 1/5 of a second from transition to impact.

[PerryGroves]

Gay's hips stall and he flips with his arms and hands.

Thats what I think flipping is, well my version of it anyway.

[PeteyD]

Thats what I think flipping is, well my version of it anyway.

I thought that was Shlapping ;)

I think it is great Jono and Virge arguing over the definition of a flip.

One of the difficulties I have had with learning golf, is that most instructions and instructors try and explain or get you to do 100 things.

Virge doesn't do this so I think that helps with my understanding. My favourite golf instruction books are the Penick ones, by a long way. Followed by the Ben Hogan book (although he gets very technical) and the Gerry Hogan one.

[virge666]

Virge
Your vid is a commentary on what everybody can see. What we see are in consequential movements that are the result of deliberate movements the player does that the camera can't pick up.


Ray, this is not the panacea of golf - it the the hand action and release of the golf club. As John alludes to, there are other actions and ideas at work and that comes later. BUT, if you cannot pick the club up with your left hand and dump it on the back of the ball by rotating the left forearm and uncocking the left wrist, you do not have one of the most vital components of a repeatable golf swing.




The rotation of the arms and wrists may not be a deliberate movement by the player. The rotation may not be rotation at all especially if the elbows are pointing towards the ground. The square to square swing (tiger is an example) has deliberate pronation pressure exerted by the player in the left forearm from takeaway through to the finish. This is a common swing on tour. What we see is not what the player is deliberately doing. In actual fact in all efficient swings the arms play a minor role to the lower body and the pivot. The grip is key because it all happens in 1/5 of a second from transition to impact.

Who cares what we dont see. Lets start with what we DO see and work our way back from there... We all have nuances, but what I have demonstrated is 5 VERY different swing patterns, and they ALL release the club more or less the same way.

And if it was simple commentry on what EVERYONE can see, why doesn't everyone release the club correctly... instead of the vast majority, and I mean VAST majority release the club by bending the left wrist ?

[virge666]

Here's my quick recipe for a powerful anti-flip swing.


or - you could just learn to chip and pitch with a proper release and then make the swing bigger.

[virge666]

You can flip whist rotating the left wrist.


No - that is actually quite hard to do on a course or range.



Gay's hips stall and he flips with his arms and hands.

How does one flip with one's arms ? Elbows dont usually go in that direction.

And Gay's hips never stall - they just don't clear (open up through impact) as much as other players. Instead of clearing the hips, he just straightens his left leg. There is no stall here, just different way to use the body.

If you still think there is a flip - please show me a picture of something "flipping" over because I cannot see what has "flipped" here

21326

Source is here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q4vPv1pfwv0

[Jono]

or - you could just learn to chip and pitch with a proper release and then make the swing bigger.

You could. and that is the traditional recommendation.

However, it didn't work for me. I could hit it without flipping with chips and pitches but not with my full shots. The amount of centripetal force from chip/pitch to a full swing with a driver is very different and has to be dealt with differently.

[virge666]

I thought that was Shlapping ;)

I think it is great Jono and Virge arguing over the definition of a flip.


Glad your enjoying it. I am too.

It has been a while since we had a good stouch.

[Puji]

First off- that video you did is bloody brilliant. Virge, you're an asset to this forum!

I really like the way you explained things in that video. And I dare say; you do a much better job explaining these concepts via video than forum text posts especially to a chopper like myself.

While I understood what you meant about the left forearm before the video; I wasn't sure. But when you were highlighting it on the video - I actually get it.

What really made it glue was the way/ sequence of the left wrist c0ck and the forearm rotation.

I haven't had time to read the posts after the video - as I suspect it to be too technical for me. But you did a terrific job.

This is exciting because for the first time in a long time; I feel like working on this is something worth the time investment.

[razaar]

Ray, this is not the panacea of golf - it the the hand action and release of the golf club. As John alludes to, there are other actions and ideas at work and that comes later. BUT, if you cannot pick the club up with your left hand and dump it on the back of the ball by rotating the left forearm and uncocking the left wrist, you do not have one of the most vital components of a repeatable golf swing.




Who cares what we dont see. Lets start with what we DO see and work our way back from there... We all have nuances, but what I have demonstrated is 5 VERY different swing patterns, and they ALL release the club more or less the same way.

And if it was simple commentry on what EVERYONE can see, why doesn't everyone release the club correctly... instead of the vast majority, and I mean VAST majority release the club by bending the left wrist ?
Hahaha...now we are back to the beginning. Have a merry Christmas everybody and a flip free New Year.:)

[TheNuclearOne]

Did we work out for sure if you can flip coming from the inside? Don't see how you can't.

[virge666]

Did we work out for sure if you can flip coming from the inside? Don't see how you can't.

TNO, you can flip from pretty much every position...

[Jono]

Virge, watched your video again. What direction are you saying the left forearm is rotating? Clockwise or counterclockwise?

[Puji]

Counter clockwise.

[TheNuclearOne]

TNO, you can flip from pretty much every position...

Of course you can.

[sms316]

I can't believe this thread is still going. WTf are you lot crapping on about?

[razaar]

I can't believe this thread is still going. WTf are you lot crapping on about?
It is something we all have to deal with at some stage. I know that you never flip or stray off the fairway, which is somethink to be proud of.
The thread seems to have stalled. Virge advocates rotation and educating the hands from pictures provided. Jono advocates the lower body mainly the left hip pulling the left shoulder, arms and hands thought impact. Me, I'm with Jono with the backswing setting the hands at the top in a locked position.
So, having never flipped (in my presence) although you may not have hit many fairways, your input is desperately needed in a constructive way.:)

[sms316]

It is something we all have to deal with at some stage. I know that you never flip or stray off the fairway, which is somethink to be proud of. The thread seems to have stalled. Virge advocates rotation and educating the hands from pictures provided. Jono advocates the lower body mainly the left hip pulling the left shoulder, arms and hands thought impact. Me, I'm with Jono with the backswing setting the hands at the top in a locked position.So, having never flipped (in my presence) although you may not have hit many fairways, your input is desperately needed in a constructive way.:) I have no idea what flipping actually is, but if I don't do it, it must be a good thing.

[razaar]

I have no idea what flipping actually is, but if I don't do it, it must be a good thing.
I think you should read Virge's posts. That should get you flipping being hands oriented and all.

[sms316]

I think you should read Virge's posts. That should get you flipping being hands oriented and all. Can you decipher it in less than 30 words? Or is ignorance bliss?

[timah!]

Can you decipher it in less than 30 words? Or is ignorance bliss?

You're asking the wrong person.
Virge = normal English.
Razaar = dave1 English.

[sms316]

You're asking the wrong person. Virge = normal English. Razaar = dave1 English. No doubt. I just aim left of the target and swing a little inside with the face pointing to the target. Any more than that just complicates things.

[G.K]

Even though this thread has made it to 9 pages, and there is obviously many different points of view on the matter, I would like to thank all contributors.

Have just been out for a hit and was flushing my irons. Relatively speaking of course as I am just a chopper after all. But I just went out there and kept the thought of rotating the crap out of my left arm, hand, wrist or whatever on my down swing, through impact and into follow through. Seems to be working a treat so big thanks to Virge for this idea!

One of the main points that I noticed a big difference was my follow through and finishing position. Aside from king of the flip, I reckon I would be king of the chicken wing. Keeping my arms rotating through seems to be helping change my swing from a cover drive into more of a "proper" golf swing, therefore reducing the tendency to chicken wing.

[razaar]

SMS
Seems that choppers have to rotate. Another swing saved and flip cured. Not sure how it works on chips and pitches. Rotating on chips and pitches, will that work?

[G.K]

Cured? saved? Not by any strech of the imagination raz. No doubt I am probably still flipping the crap out of it, whatever that is ;)

But different thoughts, feelings ideas etc work differently for different people. And this rotating thought seemed to give me a good feeling during my swing today so that can't be a bad thing can it??

I'm certainly in no position to be weighing into the debate between yourself, virge and jono so I just thought I would add my experiences from today. And I would like to see the thread make it to 10 pages. :lol:

[sms316]

SMSSeems that choppers have to rotate. Another swing saved and flip cured. Not sure how it works on chips and pitches. Rotating on chips and pitches, will that work? Well a pitch is a smaller verion of a full swing. A chip shot is more like a putt with loft.

[razaar]

Well a pitch is a smaller verion of a full swing. A chip shot is more like a putt with loft.
Are you saying we can flip with chips and pitches. An earlier post confirmed we can flip from any position. I think that is swing position, but not sure.

[razaar]

Cured? saved? Not by any strech of the imagination raz. No doubt I am probably still flipping the crap out of it, whatever that is ;)

But different thoughts, feelings ideas etc work differently for different people. And this rotating thought seemed to give me a good feeling during my swing today so that can't be a bad thing can it??

I'm certainly in no position to be weighing into the debate between yourself, virge and jono so I just thought I would add my experiences from today. And I would like to see the thread make it to 10 pages. :lol:
Lets go for 15 pages. Virge and Jono haven't even started yet. Heck we were all choppers once until we discovered the secret. Maybe rotation in the extreme is yours. Be sure to let us know how you get on with that.

[razaar]

You're asking the wrong person.
Virge = normal English.
Razaar = dave1 English.
Tim
Dave 1 has a reason for his speak, having been struck by lightning twice. That's got to hurt. Sadly I can't offer an excuse for my speak. If I can understand it, why can't you?

[Ashes]

I like Jack's swing straight, hit straight philosophy.

[razaar]

Agreed, Jack has a way with words. Swing straight to hit straight. Reads like something out of Seinfeld , something Kramer would say. Timmy can you see my point.

[Jono]

Counter clockwise.

So you rotate the left forearm counter clockwise ...

From the top? Half way down?

[razaar]

Jono if he rotated counter clock wise from the top he would do an injury to himself. It is always clockwise from the top which becomes counterclockwise below the waist. I hope Tim gets this.

[Jono]

Jono if he rotated counter clock wise from the top he would do an injury to himself. It is always clockwise from the top which becomes counterclockwise below the waist. I hope Tim gets this.

You'd actually come over the top if you rotated the left forearm counter clockwise from the top.

The flipper guy in Virge's video is actually rotating his left forearm counter clockwise earlier than the pros in the video ... he just does it with a cupped left wrist.

[TheNuclearOne]

Are you saying we can flip with chips and pitches. An earlier post confirmed we can flip from any position. I think that is swing position, but not sure.

Ray - do you have any flip in your full swing?

[sms316]

Are you saying we can flip with chips and pitches. An earlier post confirmed we can flip from any position. I think that is swing position, but not sure. Stuffed if I know. I don't know what flipping is. Can you fill me in?

[PeteyD]

You buy a unit off the plan, and sell it for a profit prior to construction. Moe will know all about it.

[razaar]

Ray - do you have any flip in your full swing?
I do. Not from anything to do with the arms, hands or rotation but with weight shift. I have learnt through experience that footwork and leg rotation is my key swing thought to trouble free shot making.

[razaar]

Stuffed if I know. I don't know what flipping is. Can you fill me in?
A bunker shot but played outside the bunker as a normal shot.

[razaar]

You'd actually come over the top if you rotated the left forearm counter clockwise from the top.

The flipper guy in Virge's video is actually rotating his left forearm counter clockwise earlier than the pros in the video ... he just does it with a cupped left wrist.
Exactly right Jono. The weight shift to the front foot is what drops the arms and hands into the slot with the right elbow, opening the clubface even further. Which is why clockwise rotation in the takeaway is one of the most common swing flaws in golf, leading to all sorts of swing problems.

[Jono]

I do. Not from anything to do with the arms, hands or rotation but with weight shift. I have learnt through experience that footwork and leg rotation is my key swing thought to trouble free shot making.

Ray, your weight shift is fine.

There are two main components of your swing that causes you to flip.

1) Your hip rotation stalls. You make a good squat move during the first half of the downswing but your lower body stalls and your hips don't start clearing until after impact. Part of it could be due to your bad knee but I still think you can do better.

2) Your right arm extends too early during the downswing. This contributes to the casting as well. Your shoulders are too level at impact which goes with the early right arm extension.

21359

Compare with DJ's impact position ...

21360

See how his legs are more internally rotated and adducted? (ie. knees closer together). He clears his hips powerfully whereas you are really still in the squat stage. Your hips may look different to Brian Gay's at impact but they are essentially both stalling. Gay just stalls with hip and knee extension.

Dustin has also kept his right arm flexed longer and externally rotated longer. His shoulders are more tilted at impact.

I'll do a video soon on these two moves.

[razaar]

Jono that swing was taken when I was still learning the weight shift. The assistant pro took the pic after I mentioned that I was learning to control the swing from the feet. I had lots of knee issues at the time which I seem to have overcome via treadmill work. The flaw in that particular swing was in the set up which resulted in a slap contact.

[Jono]

Jono that swing was taken when I was still learning the weight shift. The assistant pro took the pic after I mentioned that I was learning to control the swing from the feet. I had lots of knee issues at the time which I seem to have overcome via treadmill work. The flaw in that particular swing was in the set up which resulted in a slap contact.

You can prove me wrong, but I doubt that your current swing is much different.

[razaar]

It feels different and the contact is pinched not slapped. The stalling you refer to is the resistance of the left leg pulling the right side through. That swing must have had the hips a bit closed at address where I try to have them a bit open to clear the hip early. I'm good Jono, but thanks for your thoughts.

[virge666]

You'd actually come over the top if you rotated the left forearm counter clockwise from the top.


No you wouldn't - Hank Haney has it as one of his favourites move.

It just changes the ball flight... if you release early - you get a lower ball flight and less spin.

Remember - it is Rotation of the left forearm and UNCOCK the left wrist. It happens together and you cannot do one without the other.



The flipper guy in Virge's video is actually rotating his left forearm counter clockwise earlier than the pros in the video ... he just does it with a cupped left wrist.

No - his wrist is always bent and he rotates his left bicep when he drives the right shoulder over the top of the plane. Sure - his left forearm rotates - but it is only getting rotated as an after-thought.

[virge666]

Can you decipher it in less than 30 words? Or is ignorance bliss?

Bending the left wrist instead of rotating it.

In your terms - aiming a little right and pulling the club across your body to straighten up the flight and not hook the bejezus out of it.

[virge666]

Jono if he rotated counter clock wise from the top he would do an injury to himself. It is always clockwise from the top which becomes counterclockwise below the waist. I hope Tim gets this.

Not always mate - not really vital which way you go.

Martin Ayers did a great video on this. He prefers clockwise for the whole swing - he also advocates and demonstrates counter-clockwise.

Personally - who gives a shit - get the rotation anyway you like.

[Jono]

Not always mate - not really vital which way you go.

Martin Ayers did a great video on this. He prefers clockwise for the whole swing - he also advocates and demonstrates counter-clockwise.

Personally - who gives a shit - get the rotation anyway you like.

Virge.

IF YOU ROTATE THE LEFT FOREARM COUNTER CLOCKWISE FROM THE TOP, THE CLUB WILL BE CAST OUTSIDE AND YOU WILL COME OVER THE TOP.


don't confusion wrist flexion/extention with forearm rotation.

[razaar]

Not always mate - not really vital which way you go.

Martin Ayers did a great video on this. He prefers clockwise for the whole swing - he also advocates and demonstrates counter-clockwise.

Personally - who gives a shit - get the rotation anyway you like.
Virge
I am more interested in what you do not what Martin says, unless his concept is your swing. Not really interested in what other teachers recommend either unless you have thoroughly tested their concepts over a reasonable period of time. More interested in what you have had success with.

[razaar]

Virge.

IF YOU ROTATE THE LEFT FOREARM COUNTER CLOCKWISE FROM THE TOP, THE CLUB WILL BE CAST OUTSIDE AND YOU WILL COME OVER THE TOP.


don't confusion wrist flexion/extention with forearm rotation.
Jono
In the context of a golf swing the forearms are considered to be part of the wrists. I know what you are referring to in terms of flexion and in terms of rotation (supination and pronation). This is the basis of the long putter debate.
If the right elbow stays locked with the left elbow, in a downwards position, during the downswing the rotation will be slightly counterclockwise involuntary until the clubhead starts to gain on the hands.

[virge666]

Virge.

IF YOU ROTATE THE LEFT FOREARM COUNTER CLOCKWISE FROM THE TOP, THE CLUB WILL BE CAST OUTSIDE AND YOU WILL COME OVER THE TOP.

don't confusion wrist flexion/extention with forearm rotation.

Of course it wont. The club is attached to you hand... not your forearm.

Just drop your arms straight down, rotate your forearm and uncock your wrist, the left shoulder will move up and the club will drop to the inside and lag.

There is nothing OTT about it.

[virge666]

Virge
I am more interested in what you do not what Martin says, unless his concept is your swing. Not really interested in what other teachers recommend either unless you have thoroughly tested their concepts over a reasonable period of time. More interested in what you have had success with.

Ray - these are all feelings. The clockwise rotation you feel on the backswing - i dont feel - nor does SMS as that part for us is automatic. I dont actively wind my right forearm on the backswing - but if I look at it on video, it looks like my right forearm winds up.

Once more - who cares ?

The important bit is how you release the club through the ball with rotation instead of a bent wrist.

[virge666]

In the context of a golf swing the forearms are considered to be part of the wrists.

Really - Who came up with that bright idea ?

[JADO75]

Do you clock your forearms?
No homo!

[Jono]

Of course it wont. The club is attached to you hand... not your forearm.



What a silly thing to say ... You rotate your forearm and it will automatically rotate your hand. Your hand can't rotate independently of the forearm.

If you supinate left forearm, you rotate counterclockwise. If you pronate left forearm, you roate clockwise.

If you supinate right forearm, you rotate clockwise. If you pronate right forarm, you rotate counterclockwise.



Just drop your arms straight down, rotate your forearm and uncock your wrist, the left shoulder will move up and the club will drop to the inside and lag.

There is nothing OTT about it.

Now you're saying you have to drop the arms down BEFORE rotating the left forearm counterclockwise? I thought you said rotate left forearm counterclockwise from the top.

[Jono]

Really - Who came up with that bright idea ?

I think Raz is talking about the rotation of the wrists actually coming from the forearms. In the model of the golf swing, both cocking/uncocking and rotation comes from the wrist (see Iron Byron). However, human wrist can't rotate so it has to come from the forearm. So you get six degrees of freedom of the hands (flex, extend, ulnar deviation, radial deviation, supination, pronation).

I'm sure Ray can answer what he means.

[razaar]

Really - Who came up with that bright idea ?
George William Beldam in 1907 when the swing of several champion golfers were filmed by the Ultra- Rapid Camera. It opened up an entirely new line of thought about the golf swing. What they did as against what they felt they did. The wrists and forearms (wrists) were deemed the medium for delivering power to the club.

[razaar]

I should add, the upper arms were identified as being part of the trunk since they were anchored at the arm pits. The next joint down is the elbow. Below the elbow were identified as the wrists. Below the wrist (hands) were part of the club.

[virge666]

If you pronate left forearm, you [uncock and] rotate [the wrist] clockwise.


Yes - and that stops the club going OTT, also giving you a tonne of lag.



Now you're saying you have to drop the arms down BEFORE rotating the left forearm counterclockwise? I thought you said rotate left forearm counterclockwise from the top.

You can do both at the same time if you like... it really doesn't matter.

But if you are a flipper - the conscious effort to rotate immediately may help. (Which is Haney's idea)

[virge666]

George William Beldam in 1907 when the swing of several champion golfers were filmed by the Ultra- Rapid Camera. It opened up an entirely new line of thought about the golf swing. What they did as against what they felt they did. The wrists and forearms (wrists) were deemed the medium for delivering power to the club.

1907, huh?

How long did it take to come up with the name of the camera ? and did it replace the "Rapid Camera" ?

[razaar]

The camera was designed by Cinechrome Instruments Ltd to Show the British Admiralty the cause of the accidents occurring to aeroplanes returning to the deck of carriers. The camera was worked by a motor, and 250 pictures passed the lens in one second. Beldam managed to get the swings oft the greats on film and also the greats of cricket.

[virge666]

The camera was designed by Cinechrome Instruments Ltd to Show the British Admiralty the cause of the accidents occurring to aeroplanes returning to the deck of carriers. The camera was worked by a motor, and 250 pictures passed the lens in one second. Beldam managed to get the swings oft the greats on film and also the greats of cricket.

I didn't know Aircraft Carriers existed at the turn of the 19th century.

[razaar]

They were called mother ships. The name carrier came later.

[PeteyD]

How old are you really Ray?

[virge666]

They were called mother ships. The name carrier came later.

Really . . . Wow.

Cheers

[razaar]

Ray - these are all feelings. The clockwise rotation you feel on the backswing - i dont feel - nor does SMS as that part for us is automatic. I dont actively wind my right forearm on the backswing - but if I look at it on video, it looks like my right forearm winds up.

Once more - who cares ?

The important bit is how you release the club through the ball with rotation instead of a bent wrist.
Sorry mate I meant to reply to your post earlier but got distracted. Yep that is my old way of swinging and it worked to up until I turned 60. Only wish I had learned what I do now 40 years ago. Better late than never, I guess.
Don't compare yourself with SMS - he is a flipper. Lovely bloke but a flipper 60% of the time. Only he disguises it by swinging arse about.