Question for the mid-low HCPers

[aym]

How long did it take for you to get from “never played” to “consistently hitting good shots”? And also how often do you practice?

And here is my rant, I’ve been playing for 5 years now, first 2 years probably was just messing around, then I got serious, took lessons, practiced A LOT… however I could never consistently hit solid shots, for a while I was a consistently in the low 80s, irons was reasonably accurate to the extend that it gave me birdie chances, however out of nowhere I am back in to the high 90s and low 100s… no idea why.

Funny thing is when I was hitting it well I don’t actually know why, it’s almost like closing my eyes and I was just flushing it.

How the how do you maintain one simple working swing?

HELP!

[Webster]

How's your short game?

[Ferrins]

I went from 13 to 5 and then joined OZgolf and now I'm off 12. Avoid getting any advice from here.

[davepuppies]

What does your coach say?

Self diagnosis is dangerous, you may have fundamental swing flaws that need correcting before fringing out hours of practice?

[Toolish]

I started at about 15 years old. Was single figures by 18ish playing fairly solidly for 6 months of the year, then taking 6 months off with seasons. In season practice was 3-4 nights a week after school and at least 18 holes both days on weekends. Due to the amount of play I hit it pretty solid but it was timing related.

18-23 I was at uni, golf stayed about same level. Then started working and spent about 3 years working bloody hard on my swing 2-3 nights a week for 60-120 mins (depending on light) and playing most weeks. After 3 years I was down to 5, went from hitting a weak fade to a nice draw. Lowered a balloon ballflight and overall went from a semi chopper who needed timing to play off 9 to a pretty solid golfer.

That was about 3 years ago, now with 2 kids I never practise and play once every 2-3 weeks and generally hit it pretty solid, short game is very hit and miss now though.

What sort of practice are you doing, are you still getting coached? Are your scores due to full swing stuff or short game stuff?

[razaar]

Brokar and me were discussing just this topic today during a social round. It is essential to have an intimate understanding of your technique and be able to repeat it without conscious thought. When you can do this the focus can be directed on the clubface through the impact area. It takes thousands of hours of practice to get to this stage and it can all come unstuck by mental errors.

[markTHEblake]

Played/practiced every day for 3 years, took about 2 years to go from 36 to 5. I also constantly read books watched golf videos and took divots out of the carpet. Ate, slept and shit golf.

[Steve57]

Started at age 13 caddying regularly at Woodlands in Melb. My regular boss paid for the first 5 lessons with the pro Ray Wright who was one of the best teachers around at the time. Learnt to draw the ball from day 1 and have not looked back. Played off single figures from around age 15 and still playing off 5 at age 55. I was lucky in that I was taught the fundamentals well at an early age. I cannot stress enough the need to find a good coach. After he straightens you out you will wonder why you didnt do it sooner! Good luck.

[Iain]

Brokar and me were discussing just this topic today during a social round. It is essential to have an intimate understanding of your technique and be able to repeat it without conscious thought. When you can do this the focus can be directed on the clubface through the impact area. It takes thousands of hous of practice to get to this stage and it can all come unstuck by mental errors. Isn't that the point of practice though razaar? So you don't have to try and manipulate the clubface?

[Muscles]

Putting. 80% of my practice is putting. Im off 4 right now, but I have a terrible swing. If you can nail putts all day, you can score well regardless.

Also, dont think about it too much. Just hit the ball!! KISS golf, Keep It Simple Stupid!

[Webster]

Agreed muscles. Too many players place too much emphasis on the long game as the way to improve. If you can can consistently get the ball in play off the tee, then on or near the green in regulation, and have a decent short game, that's pretty much it.

[LeftyHoges]

Agreed muscles. Too many players place too much emphasis on the long game as the way to improve. If you can can consistently get the ball in play off the tee, then on or near the green in regulation, and have a decent short game, that's pretty much it. That's the way I play my golf.

[chappy1970]

Agree with Lefty and Jack,
When I was playing at my best and most consistent I had my short game and putting working a treat.

When I was playing a lot as well as practicing, I could get up down out of the ball washer.

For me being a once every 2-3 week player and little time to practice has seen my short game and putting deteriorate.

This is far and away the most frustrating part of the game for me having once been quite good at it.

[hocko]

Agreed muscles. Too many players place too much emphasis on the long game as the way to improve. If you can can consistently get the ball in play off the tee, then on or near the green in regulation, and have a decent short game, that's pretty much it.


That's the way I play my golf.
+1
I would probably be the worst single figure putter you have seen.
I would average 12-13 greens a round and still have 80.

[matty]

Putting, putting, putting, and up and downs, and sand saves. The game from a 100 or so in. The longer I play the more convinced I am this is the way to low handicap.

I stay in the 6-8 cap range but average mid 30 putts. Just crap. Hate it. And I'm shit out of bunkers. Will start to work on these things harder. My goal is to get to 4 or better. Anyone can get to single figures with practice and dedication. Not everyone can get to 5 or better. That's skill.

[live4golf]

Probably took me 2 or 3 years before I was hitting what I'd call good shots when I first started, I practiced every day. Now I play once a week and usually don't do anything else to keep me as a mean, lean golfing machine. I believe this is because I understand my swing and can reproduce it a bit easier now than I could when I was younger.

I echo most comments above, the short game is where it is at.

If I play badly, I generally shoot in the 70's, or even 80's
If I play well and my short game is off, I can shoot anywhere from low 70's to low 80's
If I play well and my short game is on, I generally shoot under par.

I laugh at Hocko's claim...this is me, easy.

[hocko]

Probably took me 2 or 3 years before I was hitting what I'd call good shots when I first started, I practiced every day. Now I play once a week and usually don't do anything else to keep me as a mean, lean golfing machine. I believe this is because I understand my swing and can reproduce it a bit easier now than I could when I was younger.

I echo most comments above, the short game is where it is at.

If I play badly, I generally shoot in the 70's, or even 80's
If I play well and my short game is off, I can shoot anywhere from low 70's to low 80's
If I play well and my short game is on, I generally shoot under par.

I laugh at Hocko's claim...this is me, easy.
Challenge?

[live4golf]

Challenge?

I'd challenge you to putters at 10 paces but we'd probably miss.

BOOM-TISH

[Captain Nemo]

Spend less on ho-ing, and more on lessons. But where's the fun in that!😉

[live4golf]

Spend less on ho-ing, and more on lessons. But where's the fun in that!

I hope you slapped yourself after typing that. Very disappointed in you.

Go buy something

[Captain Nemo]

I hope you slapped yourself after typing that. Very disappointed in you.

Go buy something

If you only new how much I've bought in the last month.....:roll:

[AndyP]

So combining all of the "advice", it is essential to have an intimate understanding of your short game technique.

[aym]

Just recovered from a hang over... Appreciate the comments, I do agree with short game part provided that you can hit the green or around the green in reasonable fashion... I nearly practice driver, mostly short to long irons, my theory is if I can hit GIR, and if I 3 par then I'm still scoring ok (for me anyway).

My other theory is if ur iron is laser like then ur short game wil have an massive affect, but I think I lack that under standing of my swing... I use the coach at Yarra bend, he said when I make good contact I hit it like a single hcper, which doesn't comfort me at all cause I don't hit it solid most of the time...

[BayBum]

You can be flushing every iron in your bag all day mate but that still wont put the ball in the hole for you from 3 feet :) Pitching from 50 & in,chipping & putting. Im a pretty average ball striker myself but i back myself to get up n down 99/100,back to shooting in the 70's after a couple years off.

Laser irons aint the be all & end all of good golf.Just ask John Senden...

[aym]

Yeah agree, but if I can GIR and I have to four putt every hole I might as well give up golf...

Having said that my short game is ok, not the worst part of my game lol

[live4golf]

Yeah agree, but if I can GIR and I have to four putt every hole I might as well give up golf...

Having said that my short game is ok, not the worst part of my game lol

I had a round last year (I think) where I had more shots on the greens than I had off the greens, I hit all bar 1 or 2 GIR and had a lot of 3 putts. Giving up was a thought

[dc68]

Laser irons aint the be all & end all of good golf.Just ask John Senden... Gee I wish I hit it as shit as he does.

[BayBum]

Gee I wish I hit it as shit as he does.

Hit or score ?

He is one of the top ball strikers on tour yet he wins half of SFA. If he putted half decent all season he would be a 3 time winner,year in,year out. Ask 99% of tour pros what they would like to improve & its always short game,putting to be more specific.

Anyways.....

[PerryGroves]

Laser irons aint the be all & end all of good golf.Just ask John Senden...

They may not be however my sister could be taught to competently or even putt well. She will never be able to stand on the fairway and execute a drawing 200m 2 iron to 10 feet.

There is being able to hit a golf ball and skanking it round and getting up and down to achieve a score.

[goonie]

A great short game is fine, but if you can't get it near or on the green in regulation it isn't going to do shit for your chances of becoming a low marker, if you hit it in the trees or water all day and are on the green for 4 or 5+ everytime a great short game isn't going to help.

If you want to be say a 8-15 hcp player you need to have a good all round game, or if you have a stronger long or short game, the other part of your game still needs to be at least reasonable.

If you want to go lower than 8 you need to have a great long or short game, and still be good or great at the other part of your game.

[aym]

Agree with you there goonie

[steeler]

IMO technique is everything.

However here is my philosophy and story

1. What you are born with

I think physically everybody has a predetermined swing type and it is very hard to move away from this.

I have always had limited flexibility so my swing is short, upright and steep. This aligns to accuracy with my straight to slight fade ball flight.

Guys with flexibility and strength tend to draw a ball. Their margin for error is less than mine so they tend to be less accurate.

2. What age you took the game up

The later you take up the game the harder it is to build a fundamentally sound repeating swing. The only exceptions are if you have played another hand/eye ball contact sport from an early age. This makes it easier to translate across

3. Mental capacity

You have to love hitting golf balls. You have to want to hit every shot and never have any nerves or fear.

4. Learning style / preference

As a teacher I always identify an individuals preferred learning style. The first two styles align great to golf practice

a. Kinaesthetic - hands on ( hitting range balls and experimenting)
b. Visual - see it ( seeing a perfect shot and then hitting it)
c. Read Write - study it
D. Aural - hear it

I am a visual learner. Therefore my practice is always playing holes ( time dependent) and hitting shots on the course until I hit a shot that is close to my visual image. I then file this away as a good memory and the next time I play that hole I have a great image, therefore also a great thought before I play.

I also play loads of shots and rounds in my mind during the day and night. It is easy to practice visually when you have time. Each night when I go to bed I rehearse shots, holes or strategies in my mind to help me wind down to go to sleep. have you ever visually seen yourself making birdie on every hole???


5. Practice Quantity vs Quality

Determine what type of practice you like. Hitting balls vs playing.

As I dont get time to practice, I always have a putter and wedge in the rooms with carpet. ( and yes carpet choice is a huge consideration in your house. This makes for a great indoor putting green)

I dont like hitting range balls. I just dont have the time to practice and where I am the range is only 150m long. Therefore the only way I can work on my whole game is to do it on the course. ( see point 4) Hit a shot until you are satisfied. Never leave on a bad shot when practising. This means I may only hit one ball or I may hit ten. If you leave on a bad shot you reinforce that you are happy to accept a shot of that quality.


What does this all mean for me and my practice???

I work long hours and get little to no time to practice during the week. I always try to get some practice in on Fridays before I play on a saturday. If I can I go out sunday afternoon and play some holes. This makes it tough to maintain a low handicap.

The only thing that has saved me over the last ten years has been the smartest golfing decision I ever made. As I live in the country and have little access to quality coaching I was forced to make a choice. Do I travel to the city for coaching ( 6 hours drive plus costs) or look for an alternative.

The alternative I identified was to purchase an EXPLANAR. greatest purchase I have ever made. two to three times a week I do 5 minutes on it and reinforce a swing into muscle memory. Although I am not hitting golf balls I am still living and thinking golf. Just like Blakey said. It is an addiction and you have to feed that addiction in some form.


At the end of the day you have to find what works for you across all aspects of your life. And in my opinion there is no substitute for playing.

[Veefore]

How long did it take for you to get from “never played” to “consistently hitting good shots”? And also how often do you practice?

And here is my rant, I’ve been playing for 5 years now, first 2 years probably was just messing around, then I got serious, took lessons, practiced A LOT… however I could never consistently hit solid shots, for a while I was a consistently in the low 80s, irons was reasonably accurate to the extend that it gave me birdie chances, however out of nowhere I am back in to the high 90s and low 100s… no idea why.

Funny thing is when I was hitting it well I don’t actually know why, it’s almost like closing my eyes and I was just flushing it.

How the how do you maintain one simple working swing?

HELP!

I'm currently off 10 but I was of 6 this time last year.
I started golf in 1990 and played for a year. I took 2 years off due to a back injury at work before taking it up again. Over the years I've generally played once a week for a year or two before taking another year or two off. During that time I slowly worked down to about a 12 handicap.
Seven years ago I started playing regularly again and apart from about 3 months off each year (again due to my back) I managed to hover around the 9-10 mark.
3 years ago a mate challenged me to get my handicap down to 6 to enter a tournament that he was playing in and he wanted me to be his partner. I started practicing more, concentrating on my irons mostly and in 5 months I got to 6.1.

Interestingly, the big improvement was definitely in my driving and my iron play. My short game went from VERY good (equal to a +3 handicap according to the Dave Pelz test) to pretty poor. However, my fairways hit went from 3 per round to 8-9 and my greens in regulation went from 1 per round to 9-10.

IMO, to improve you probably need to spend about 65% of your time on the long game, 25% on chipping and 10% on your putting. With putting especially, quantity definitely does not equal quality.





1. What you are born with

I think physically everybody has a predetermined swing type and it is very hard to move away from this.

I have always had limited flexibility so my swing is short, upright and steep. This aligns to accuracy with my straight to slight fade ball flight.



Not totally true. Talent is a myth.

We are all born pretty much same. It's the things we do in childhood that develop our flexibility and "physicality". People with poor flexibility have poor flexibility because they didn't do any activities that developed it when they were young.

There is an excellent book called the Talent Myth that gives great explanations and uses real world examples.

[steeler]

I'm currently off 10 but I was of 6 this time last year.
I started golf in 1990 and played for a year. I took 2 years off due to a back injury at work before taking it up again. Over the years I've generally played once a week for a year or two before taking another year or two off. During that time I slowly worked down to about a 12 handicap.
Seven years ago I started playing regularly again and apart from about 3 months off each year (again due to my back) I managed to hover around the 9-10 mark.
3 years ago a mate challenged me to get my handicap down to 6 to enter a tournament that he was playing in and he wanted me to be his partner. I started practicing more, concentrating on my irons mostly and in 5 months I got to 6.1.

Interestingly, the big improvement was definitely in my driving and my iron play. My short game went from VERY good (equal to a +3 handicap according to the Dave Pelz test) to pretty poor. However, my fairways hit went from 3 per round to 8-9 and my greens in regulation went from 1 per round to 9-10.

IMO, to improve you probably need to spend about 65% of your time on the long game, 25% on chipping and 10% on your putting. With putting especially, quantity definitely does not equal quality.




Not totally true. Talent is a myth.

We are all born pretty much same. It's the things we do in childhood that develop our flexibility and "physicality". People with poor flexibility have poor flexibility because they didn't do any activities that developed it when they were young.

There is an excellent book called the Talent Myth that gives great explanations and uses real world examples.


Not looking for a fight. Just clarifying my intent.

We are born with pre-determined genetic capabilities due to the factors we inherit from our parents.

We are not all born equal. ( unless we are an identical twin).

Never mentioned talent once.... however I will refer to my definition now for when I do use it.

1. You are born with a gift.
2. A gift needs to be identified.
3. A gift under the right conditions can be nurtured into a talent.

Unfortunately most people never get the chance to have their gift identified.

We could argue this forever and get nowhere as this is all totally dependant on our own definitions of talent. I am guessing that we are totally on different pages when it comes to our definitions.

[Outcast]

+1
I would probably be the worst single figure putter you have seen.
I would average 12-13 greens a round and still have 80.

+1 My putting & to some extent my chipping is what separates me from being high single figures & low single figures

I average 34 putts per round, a good day is around 32 & a bad day is 37 plus....

If I could get my average to say 30 - 32 putts per round I would be off 4!

[hocko]

+1 My putting & to some extent my chipping is what separates me from being high single figures & low single figures

I average 34 putts per round, a good day is around 32 & a bad day is 37 plus....

If I could get my average to say 30 - 32 putts per round I would be off 4!
Same here....36 odd putts per round to shoot mid to high 70's.
This is well known to the WAnkers, Thursday i played with two fellow WAnkers and they were lucky enough to witness 2 four jacks.

[aym]

Did John Senden go through Bann Lynch golf academy? I just realised when I go to yarra bend for lesson Michael has always put my swing video against J.Senden, but the end result is the opposite of laser like iron shots ;)

Any drills to help promote more consistency? youtube video would be good...

[idgolfguy]

...they were lucky enough to witness 2 four jacks.
I don't think anyone is lucky too see a four jack - always afraid that they are contagious, like shanks.

[dc68]

Shhhhhh don't say the s word.

[Matt 3 Jab]

my 2c goes with most others. Short game is crucial for low scoring, no one will ever hit every green all the time. and when you dont, you have to get up and down 90% of the time.

Ive always been an ok ball striker, but never had a good short game, let alone putting. I'm a bad putter and thats 90% of the problem, i think im not a good putter. Good putters know they are good, and believe they are good. Anyone who has played with me can vouch for the bad putting. Plenty of golfers arent great from the tee to green, however they are great around and on it.

work on the short game and let the other parts of the game come together.

i play about once a month if not every 2 months, and i can still hit a long bomb and close irons at times, but the short game is so bad id be lucky to get up and down 1/5 times, its clear what goes first and what would save shots.

[pingmanjas]

I echo the previous comments it's all about the short game.

[fisko]

Going to go against the grain here and suggest that for someone shooting 3 figures, chances are it's not the fault of your short game.

It's obviously important at the elite amateur and pro level to have an all round game but by and large, I think the importance of the short game is grossly overrated (unless it's genuinely terrible, and that's pretty rare). There have been studies conducted on this very subject and without exception, for amateur golfers the long game has more of an impact on score than the short game. This is one of them - http://www.columbia.edu/~mnb2/broadie/Assets/broadie_wscg_v_200804.pdf

For those that can't be bothered reading it, those who shoot in the 3 figure range lose an average of 16 short game strokes per round when compared against the top tour pros but this increases to 24.6 strokes for the long game, defined as shots outside of 100 yards. For 80 and 90's shooters the totals are 8.8 and 16.4 respectively. For low handicap amateurs, 4.3 and 9.3. Regardless of ability, amateurs lose far more ground against their professional counterparts with their ball striking rather than their short game.

I don't know the reason for the fixation that many have with their short game but the amateur psychologist in me thinks that it may have something to do with not wanting to admit we are inferior at the "manly" aspects of the game, busting out long straight drives and hitting laser-like iron shots. Instead we blame it on the finesse aspect and tell ourselves that if we only spent more time on the putting and chipping greens we would be great golfers, completely ignoring the fact that our long game stinks :P We remember the 3 missed 4 footers but we tend to forget playing 5 off the tee after 2 snap hooks and write it off as an aberration rather than a statistical concern.

People also overuse the putts per round statistic as well. You might think your 38 putts is the reason you posted an ugly score but if you were putting from 50 feet all day you will find you actually had an excellent day on the greens and you are blaming completely the wrong part of your game.

As for the first post, it's hard to know what to suggest without knowing and seeing your game but document everything when you are out on the course next, and I really mean everything. Fairways hit (and what club you used), distance, where you missed it, clubs used for your approaches, proximity to the green/pin, distance of your first puts, distance of the putts you holed etc. It all seems a bit over the top but after half a dozen rounds I guarantee you will see some kind of a pattern and it might not be what you expect. It might be that your ball striking is pretty good 80% of the time but the other 20% of the time you are putting yourself in unplayable positions in which case maybe you need to work on your course management (just an example that I pulled out of my you know what). Once you know your weaknesses you have half the battle won.

[virge666]

I have played off 6 or less since I was a teenager. I have never been off anything higher even through two surgeries including one stint in hospital for 4 months with a pretty serious spine injury. That is about 25 years of being a low marker. I have never played more than an average of once a week. I average about 20 rounds of golf a year and get to practice three times are month.

Here would be my tips.

Distance control is what stops 3 putts. even if you are 2 feet out on a read. if you get the distance right... you only have a two footer. Length dictates line, therefore length is more important that line.
The full swing is a longer version of the short swing... it is NOT the other way around. If you cannot get this through your head, quite simply, you are ****ed.
Your short game allows you to score well, your long game allows you to go low.
With regards to your short game, have a system, dont care what system, but have one that isn't "I reckon I should swing this hard". Unless you practice a lot, the idea that you intrinsically know how hard to hit a shot a required distance is a fairy tale.

They would be the things I live by with my golf... but the most important thing for mine is that if you are not enjoying your golf, you need to find another way, so that it becomes a pleasant experience. You will never get better at a past time you dont like doing.

hence the phrase.... Enjoy.

[virge666]

Going to go against the grain here and suggest that for someone shooting 3 figures, chances are it's not the fault of your short game.

It's obviously important at the elite amateur and pro level to have an all round game but by and large, I think the importance of the short game is grossly overrated (unless it's genuinely terrible, and that's pretty rare). There have been studies conducted on this very subject and without exception, for amateur golfers the long game has more of an impact on score than the short game. This is one of them - http://www.columbia.edu/~mnb2/broadie/Assets/broadie_wscg_v_200804.pdf



Fisko,

missing the point of the short game... I think we had this discussion a while back too.

The short game technique flows to the long game. If you learn the technique to consistantly hit a SW 60m, then all I have to do is change the club to a 9iron to hit a shot 100m. That technique you ingrain into your golf swing with the SW, is indentical to the 140m shot you hit into a green. The difference is that hitting the ball a required distance is very different to bashing a 6 iron as hard as I can.

As I said above, the full shot is a longer version of the short shot. The trouble is that most choppers learn it the other way around... so they spend there time trying to slow down whatever wacky technique they use to hit a full swing to try and hit the ball a shorter distance. This compromises impact and as we all know, Impact is everything.

[fisko]

Distance control is what stops 3 putts. even if you are 2 feet out on a read. if you get the distance right... you only have a two footer. Length dictates line, therefore length is more important that line.

Strongly agree, the problem is that distance control relies on so many variables that it's difficult to effectively practice. Even if you play the same course every single round you will encounter different conditions (turf/weather/playing etc.) so it becomes an exercise in adjusting as quickly as possible which is almost entirely mental rather than physical. You can put a dozen 50 footers within 2 feet on the practice green but when get out on the first green it means nothing if the speed is even a little different.


The full swing is a longer version of the short swing... it is NOT the other way around. If you cannot get this through your head, quite simply, you are ****ed.

I'm not sure I agree with this, so I must be ****ed :lol: There are similarities of course but if your full swing is an extension of your less than full swings you are going to be awfully one dimensional as a player, many short game techniques require a markedly different technique to your full swing. I may be misinterpreting your statement here but if my full swing was simply a longer version of my stock 50-80 metre shot I doubt I'd break 80.


Your short game allows you to score well, your long game allows you to go low.

Strongly disagree here. I've had a handicap of 1 or less (with a low of +4.4) since I was 14 (mid 30's now) and I can tell you every single round I've ever gone deep into red figures has been on the back of good putting. You simply can't shoot 64 or 65 on the strength of your long game, even if you put half a dozen iron shots inside 10 feet you are still looking at 50/50 chances at bird at best, you need a statistically higher than average number of these to drop to go really low. It's my opinion and my experience that your long game keeps the big numbers off the card but career rounds require exceptional putting on that particular day (or a few chips ins/hole outs). Senden went low a few times during the summer and while he's one of the best ball strikers in the world, each of these rounds he holed a bunch of 8-30 footers (as well as a HIO at Coolum). If he'd had an average day on the greens he might have struggled to break 70 instead of the 63/64 he posted.

[virge666]

Strongly agree, the problem is that distance control relies on so many variables that it's difficult to effectively practice. Even if you play the same course every single round you will encounter different conditions (turf/weather/playing etc.) so it becomes an exercise in adjusting as quickly as possible which is almost entirely mental rather than physical. You can put a dozen 50 footers within 2 feet on the practice green but when get out on the first green it means nothing if the speed is even a little different.


Yep - but that is the fun part of the game...




I'm not sure I agree with this, so I must be ****ed :lol: There are similarities of course but if your full swing is an extension of your less than full swings you are going to be awfully one dimensional as a player, many short game techniques require a markedly different technique to your full swing. I may be misinterpreting your statement here but if my full swing was simply a longer version of my stock 50-80 metre shot I doubt I'd break 80.

We are not talking techniques - we are talking basic fundemental impact. No one off a double figure handicap can move the ball both ways with control. What you learn with practicing your shortgame is what you take to your full game. Hitting a little hold off SW is exactly the same as hitting a hold off 8 iron which is the same as a little cut up LW. A low punch shot with your GW is the same as the shot you play with the 8 iron into the wind. That ability you get to trap the ball instead of slapping the ball is learnt with the short game.

Ii am pretty sure you can grab most tech books for the last 100 years of golf and alot of them will say that they learnt to play the game backwards from the green. The other really cool bit about the short game is that you can stay competative as you get older. Golf courses are full of old farts who bunt it around off a single figure handicap. I hope to be one of them one day... :)




Strongly disagree here. I've had a handicap of 1 or less (with a low of +4.4) since I was 14 (mid 30's now) and I can tell you every single round I've ever gone deep into red figures has been on the back of good putting. You simply can't shoot 64 or 65 on the strength of your long game, even if you put half a dozen iron shots inside 10 feet you are still looking at 50/50 chances at bird at best, you need a statistically higher than average number of these to drop to go really low. It's my opinion and my experience that your long game keeps the big numbers off the card but career rounds require exceptional putting on that particular day (or a few chips ins/hole outs). Senden went low a few times during the summer and while he's one of the best ball strikers in the world, each of these rounds he holed a bunch of 8-30 footers (as well as a HIO at Coolum). If he'd had an average day on the greens he might have struggled to break 70 instead of the 63/64 he posted.

Yeah - with you there...

Lets be honest... to go really low - all your facets have to be firing. And the champs this year where I hit 14-15 greens both days and still couldnt break 36 points proves how important putting is.

But you have to give yourself chances... and the only way to get chances is to hit greens... and for that - you need the 120m plus game to be working.

The short game stops the bogeys and the long game and putting gives you looks at birdies.

[virge666]

And lastly Fisko,

get your arse to the champs !

[LeftyHoges]

All this thread has taught is me is how good I could be if I practiced even once a year. That would be a huge markup on my current none times a year.

Fortunately for me, I'm lazy as can be, so you guys enjoy your practice, I'll be in the clubhouse having another beer! ;-)

[Dotty]

How long did it take for you to get from “never played” to “consistently hitting good shots”? And also how often do you practice?

And here is my rant, I’ve been playing for 5 years now, first 2 years probably was just messing around, then I got serious, took lessons, practiced A LOT… however I could never consistently hit solid shots, for a while I was a consistently in the low 80s, irons was reasonably accurate to the extend that it gave me birdie chances, however out of nowhere I am back in to the high 90s and low 100s… no idea why.

Funny thing is when I was hitting it well I don’t actually know why, it’s almost like closing my eyes and I was just flushing it.

How the how do you maintain one simple working swing?

HELP!
Back to the original question. I'm a sporting disaster-area at everything (literally pre-dated Eric the Eel by 30 years). I took a year to even get off (then) max handicap of 27, another five get below 20 and another twenty to get to below 10.

This translates into your terms of high 90's, high 80's and high 70's. Which I think may be the root of your problem - no mention of a handicap.

Join a club (even a social golf club), get a handicap and play on a level playing field, rather than playing against the card. Sometimes, you'll play better than your handicap and get rewarded with praise and prizes. Often you won't, but you'll still be rewarded seeing a mate's name at the top of the leaderboard, a couple of great shots to talk about on the 19th, empathy from your fellow competitors and 4 hours of enjoyment.

With hindisght, my big drops came after taking up different bets for fun.
The first (23-16) came after discovering 'bingo, bango, bongo', which rewards nearest-approach and longest-putt-sunk as much as longest-approach and net-score, so the short game improved.
The second (12-8 ) was the wine-club, where for $5 the top 40% scores a bottle. Because it was spread over a few groups, you don't know how the others are doing, even if one in your group is shooting the lights out, there is still the second or third bottle. It became 'don't stuff up' golf, rather than 'if I hit my best with this club, I could get there', so the long game became consistent.

As for lessons, I get 'paralysis from analysis' and too much info does my head in. I hit a small range bucket once or twice a week, but practice the wrong things (I tend to groove a wrong swing that works, than risk breaking the mold.) Twice a week on the way home from work, 30 mins chipping or sometimes 9 holes. Occasional putts on the carpet at home.

I am Virge's old bloke off single figures that bunts it down the middle.

And I enjoy every minute of it.

[Webster]

Hmmmm Dotty, in play off the tee, not to many silly mistakes with your approaches, and a decent short game. I like it a lot.

[virge666]

Yep. He can play alright !

And he just doesn't brutally bad shots. The ball is always in play to some degree.

[Webster]

Virge, the biggest issue I see holding 12 handicappers back from being 7-8 markers is that they think they have to hit more good shots to get better. The answer is to hit fewer bad shots, not more good shots. By process of elimination, ie turning 5's into 4's by avoiding 6's, the scores come down on their own.

[live4golf]

All this thread has taught is me is how good I could be if I practiced even once a year. That would be a huge markup on my current none times a year. Fortunately for me, I'm lazy as can be, so you guys enjoy your practice, I'll be in the clubhouse having another beer! ;-) Are you my...my...long lost brother? I will join you in the bar, I will try to go and practice but it just bores me to death and end up just trying to launch my driver at the back net. During summer I usually get out twice on the weekends probably every second weekend, that is where I get my handicap down...then I think how low can I go, practice for twenty seconds, get bored and go and sit on my arse.Serious question, if you can play to 5 or less with little or no practice what could you get down to with focus? I get to 1 or 2, miss out on the pennants side, get the poops and float back out to 5 or so. If I was to make a concerted effort to get my handicap down...I would like to get down to scratch at least once...could I do it? Anyone north of Sydney want to help me get there?Sorry for the thread jack, whilst replying to lefty I realized that I do want to be a true scratch player for at least a fleeting moment, I am sick of people telling me i should easily get there but never do.Anyone want to help...virge ;), anyone...please let me know what I need to do.Ok, back to normal programming

[dc68]

All this thread has taught is me is how good I could be if I practiced even once a year. That would be a huge markup on my current none times a year. Fortunately for me, I'm lazy as can be, so you guys enjoy your practice, I'll be in the clubhouse having another beer! ;-) +1

[live4golf]

Sorry for the single paragraph, posting on my iPad.

[virge666]

Virge, the biggest issue I see holding 12 handicappers back from being 7-8 markers is that they think they have to hit more good shots to get better. The answer is to hit fewer bad shots, not more good shots. By process of elimination, ie turning 5's into 4's by avoiding 6's, the scores come down on their own.

Couldn't agree more.

but what do we know ?

[BrisVegas]

Virge, the biggest issue I see holding 12 handicappers back from being 7-8 markers is that they think they have to hit more good shots to get better. The answer is to hit fewer bad shots, not more good shots. By process of elimination, ie turning 5's into 4's by avoiding 6's, the scores come down on their own.

spot on Jack.

There are plenty of different ways of playing off a low-mid handicap.

20 years ago when i started playing, I hit the balls miles and often very wayward. I practiced inside 100m almost exclusively and I was deadly with a wedge. My short game made up for my inconsistent long game. I was off 7 within a year of starting golf and have pretty much stayed between 4 & 8 ever since. At my best I was on 3 for a while when I was playing every week and started to hit driver pretty consistently. However, I have barely hit a practice ball in 10 years since then, so these days I use course management and conservative ball striking to keep it in play and play for bogeys when in trouble. I can't get up and down for shit now, but my game doesn't rely on it anymore.

The most golf I've played recently was about 35 rounds in 2010/2011 and all I'd do was warm up and find a groove before teeing off. I can't remember the last time I went to a range to practice something. A weekly comp round is the Holy Grail for me. I'll find it one day....

[virge666]

if you can play to 5 or less with little or no practice what could you get down to with focus? I get to 1 or 2, miss out on the pennants side, get the poops and float back out to 5 or so. If I was to make a concerted effort to get my handicap down

I struggle with that . . . what is the point in getting a low handicap ?

you never win comps... in corporate days, you are a passenger . . . honestly, why bother ?

on the other hand, you can blow your handicap out from 5 to 12 and win the champs . . ;)

[Sydney Hacker]

I struggle with that . . . what is the point in getting a low handicap ?I know you were making the above post tongue in cheek, but pride is the answer for me. My handicap just went from 4-8 in around 12 rounds, and that was enough to make me pull my finger out and pay a bit of attention to what I was doing!

[PerryGroves]

All this thread has taught is me is how good I could be if I practiced even once a year. That would be a huge markup on my current none times a year.

Fortunately for me, I'm lazy as can be, so you guys enjoy your practice, I'll be in the clubhouse having another beer! ;-)

I'll get the first one in Lefty, we can put shit on Man U.

Tried to practice my putting yesterday (post aother disgraceful performance on Saturday), down at the club with all good intentions............gawd, it's so boring. Lasted 10 minutes, went home. Only way I can practice is if I bet, I am happy to lose (which I will at putting), just can't stand there on my pat hitting 5 footers.

[live4golf]

I struggle with that . . . what is the point in getting a low handicap ?you never win comps... in corporate days, you are a passenger . . . honestly, why bother ?on the other hand, you can blow your handicap out from 5 to 12 and win the champs . . ;)Because I like playing golf and the mates I play with. Can you help me get to scratch? I think I would like to get to scratch and play pennants, but that is a boys club and a +7 handicap may not help me. I do ok in corporate days ;)

[virge666]

I know you were making the above post tongue in cheek, but pride is the answer for me. My handicap just went from 4-8 in around 12 rounds, and that was enough to make me pull my finger out and pay a bit of attention to what I was doing!


Because I like playing golf and the mates I play with. Can you help me get to scratch? I think I would like to get to scratch and play pennants, but that is a boys club and a +7 handicap may not help me. I do ok in corporate days ;)

It wasn't toungue in cheek... dead set serious.

Golf is one of the only games in the world that rewards mediocrity. In fact it rewards luck over skill. Why would you spend a day or so a week working on getting down to scratch when some chopper off 12-15 who spent the day down the park with his kids beats you with 42 points due to a few putts dropping. You only need 6 under off the stick to tie him...

You will be dead set useless on a corporate day unless you can bomb it 300 to impress your collegues. Most scratch golfers are a pretty boring to watch as all they do is hit fairways and greens. I had 4 under off the stick around Long reef last year in a corporate event, had 43 points... only got beaten by 4 !

Pennants is just another distraction to piss off your family and play more golf... and high level pennant matches are hard work.

so I ask you... what is the point of a low handicap other than the pat on the back your fellow golfers give you for not chunking chips and bashing it in the trees all day ?

[live4golf]

It wasn't toungue in cheek... dead set serious.Golf is one of the only games in the world that rewards mediocrity. In fact it rewards luck over skill. Why would you spend a day or so a week working on getting down to scratch when some chopper off 12-15 who spent the day down the park with his kids beats you with 42 points due to a few putts dropping. You only need 6 under off the stick to tie him...You will be dead set useless on a corporate day unless you can bomb it 300 to impress your collegues. Most scratch golfers are a pretty boring to watch as all they do is hit fairways and greens. I had 4 under off the stick around Long reef last year in a corporate event, had 43 points... only got beaten by 4 !Pennants is just another distraction to piss off your family and play more golf... and high level pennant matches are hard work.so I ask you... what is the point of a low handicap other than the pat on the back your fellow golfers give you for not chunking chips and bashing it in the trees all day ?I like golf.

[virge666]

I like golf.

yeah - me too.

Don't they weigh down horses as well if they are too good ?

[live4golf]

yeah - me too.Don't they weigh down horses as well if they are too good ? Hahaha, nice analogy. Hope they don't put us down if we break a leg though.

[aym]

I am not aiming THAT low, as long as I can hit my irons well all day (like what I've done before at one stage) and give my self a chance at birdie or par I am happy, went to the driving range yesterday, I think I might try Vrige's idea of working on my half swing then to the full swing, not sure about your other point about the transition of short game in to long game, cause I normally flush my 9-gw, but as soon as I pick up a 7,6,5,4 iron it's anyones guess...

[live4golf]

I am not aiming THAT low, as long as I can hit my irons well all day (like what I've done before at one stage) and give my self a chance at birdie or par I am happy, went to the driving range yesterday, I think I might try Vrige's idea of working on my half swing then to the full swing, not sure about your other point about the transition of short game in to long game, cause I normally flush my 9-gw, but as soon as I pick up a 7,6,5,4 iron it's anyones guess...

Why not? - remember, the best golf you have ever played is how you can play.

[aym]

Why not? - remember, the best golf you have ever played is how you can play.

I like the way you think, and hopefully in the next 2 weeks I can get back there, or this summer will be wasted...

Btw is it possible to start your weight forward without using the stack and tilt swing? or that will just end up causing more trouble?

[live4golf]

I like the way you think, and hopefully in the next 2 weeks I can get back there, or this summer will be wasted...

Btw is it possible to start your weight forward without using the stack and tilt swing? or that will just end up causing more trouble?

Sure is, google 'Impact Position drills'. this is not S&T, despite what some 'experts' say. I think setting up in your Impact Position is a great move if you hit high and right, or get 'stuck' with starting your swing. It might cause more trouble, or it might solve some issues...you never know until you try something :)

[mrbluu]

I am not aiming THAT low, as long as I can hit my irons well all day (like what I've done before at one stage) and give my self a chance at birdie or par I am happy, went to the driving range yesterday, I think I might try Vrige's idea of working on my half swing then to the full swing, not sure about your other point about the transition of short game in to long game, cause I normally flush my 9-gw, but as soon as I pick up a 7,6,5,4 iron it's anyones guess...

Another piece of advice I will give you is that do what I do. As long as you can celebrate 1 or 2 shots a round that you absolutely flushed, you will find that the 1 or 2 shots around, will soon become 2-3 and so forth, then you will get to a point were you can actually convince your mind that you are playing well.

When you do hit a bad shot do think **** I've just hit a bad shot I must be playing shit, just think, of well that didn't go to plan and move on. lets face it playing off around 10-15 there will be quite a few of those shots. when you do have a really bad round, just put it down to a glitch and don't dwell on it. If you keep thinking you are playing bad then you will have to break a slump to play well again, meaning hitting it well the whole round, which lets face it, very few mid-handicappers would do this.

If you get get yourself to enjoy small pieces of good golf you can play then more good golf will come and the more you will enjoy it.

[aym]

very philosophical mrbluu, yeah I reckon a lot has to do with mental side of things, when I was playing well one of two holes I would snap and leave 3-4 shot in the bunker... then it goes all down hill ... will try your training video thanks.

[aym]

Tired a bit of what Virgee said today at Albert park, focused on my half swing, and just tried to make it as smooth and less violent as possible, was +3 after front 9 and 83 of the stick.

My iron shots are about 1 or 2 grooves less from flushing it. Almost there, thanks for the tips guys :)