Discuss Religion Here

[sms316]

I just thought it would be nice if instead of clogging up several threads with discussions about church being evil etc that perhaps it was all done in one place. The end.

[Dcanto]

I just thought it would be nice if instead of clogging up several threads with discussions about church being evil etc that perhaps it was all done in one place. The end.

Amen :)

[Webster]

Do we have any Scientologiest here? Can someone tell me what they are all about in 25 words or less.

Thanks.

[jaybam]

I just thought it would be nice if instead of clogging up several threads with discussions about church being evil etc that perhaps it was all done in one place. The end. Who made you god ?? Will post wherever i want troll.

[sms316]

Who made you god ?? Courty.

[jaybam]

Courty. Not even he is that silly

[sms316]

Not even he is that silly How silly is he?

[jaybam]

How silly is he? He lives in north queensland. need i say more????

[TheTrueReview]

Do we have any Scientologiest here? Can someone tell me what they are all about in 25 words or less.

Thanks.

It involves Thetans and Xenu, the intergalactic dictator. This article (http://www.smh.com.au/lifestyle/celebrity/cruise-out-of-control-20120707-21nrp.html) should assist Jack.

http://images.smh.com.au/2012/07/08/3438201/art-353-tomcruise-300x0.jpg

[sms316]

It was a mission statement!

[dave1]

Nup.

I'll discuss it when its relevant to a specific topic.

Plus I have said enough on this topic.

Amen

[Captain Nemo]

[-(

[PerryGroves]

There was only ever one religion around my way growing up and there was only one Wombat. Do not worship false idols.

17742

[LarryLong]

Do we have any Scientologiest here? Can someone tell me what they are all about in 25 words or less.

Thanks.

I think you can get that answer for a couple of grand at your local reading room.

[Moe Norman]

Do we have any Scientologiest here? Can someone tell me what they are all about in 25 words or less.

Thanks.

Same as Christianity, they just got to the party a bit late and find acceptance hard to come by.

[Boonie]

Same as Christianity, they just got to the party a bit late and find acceptance hard to come by.

That's pretty harsh on scientology Moe. At least they have stuck to their guns and defend one version of what they believe in. As opposed to splitting into strict versions, watered down versions, re-written versions, pc versions, convenient versions - and then having random people interpret them all in 1000 different ways depending on who you are and where you live.

I kind of admire them really. Their story is no less believable, but they are generally 100% committed to it.

[dave1]

Its a cult. Listen to the people that leave Scientology ..They recieve threats and are hounded.

Religion my arse!

[idgolfguy]

Om...Sivaya Nama!

[markTHEblake]

I just thought it would be nice if instead of clogging up several threads with discussions .....Does that include trading hours on good Friday?

[sms316]

Does that include trading hours on good Friday? Probably.

[dc68]

Its a cult. Listen to the people that leave Scientology ..They recieve threats and are hounded.Religion my arse! Told ya. If only this was as easy as staying off the piss.

[dave1]

So you think scientology is a religion?

I prefer cult.

Have you read and observed what people have said when they exit from it.

[dc68]

They are all cults..... You are OCD yeah?

[Moe Norman]

Why is scientology any worse than Christianity? Why does it get labelled a cult, while Christianity in its various forms is considered a religion?

Nobody can disprove the beliefs of either groups, all are equally as farfetched and without any basis or reason. However, Christianity is responsible for far more atrocities against the human race, a fact that cannot be ignored.

[Daves]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=if-UzXIQ5vw

[Daves]

Any other Micks out there ?
Like to compare Confirmation names ?

Biggus?

[Webster]

Why is scientology any worse than Christianity? Why does it get labelled a cult, while Christianity in its various forms is considered a religion?

Nobody can disprove the beliefs of either groups, all are equally as farfetched and without any basis or reason. However, Christianity is responsible for far more atrocities against the human race, a fact that cannot be ignored.

Moe, I barrack for the Christians because I have seen Jesus and he is real.

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b221/threeputtzalot/CanyouseeJesus.jpg

[TheTrueReview]

...I have seen Jesus and he is real.

What was he like Jack? I gotta know.

[markTHEblake]

. However, Christianity is responsible for far more atrocities against the human race, a fact that cannot be ignored.This is news to me, what are these facts?

[Dude, Where's my Par?]

have there been any documented cases of anyone being stoned because the book by L.Ron said so?
I do not know this answer, that is why I ask...

[markTHEblake]

have there been any documented cases of anyone being stoned because .......
I do not know this answer, that is why I ask..

[Minor_Threat]

I would be interested in what the church would have to say about the discovery (finally) of the Higgs Boson particle?

[Dude, Where's my Par?]

have there been any documented cases of anyone being stoned because .......
I do not know this answer, that is why I ask..

I guess I was making a large assumption that those following Deuteronomy 22, stonings would have taken place. It is solely due to my ignorance that I do not know if the story by L.Ron requests such dealings.

so again, I can only assume that if there were said stonings in the Bible and no such retribution in Scientology, there have been more atrocities by Christianity??

[popper81]

:horse:






Told ya. If only this was as easy as staying off the piss.

[dc68]

Christianity is responsible for far more atrocities against the human race, a fact that cannot be ignored.



Islam is a lot worse. Look around the world and the things being done in the name of God and religion.

[dc68]

:horse:


Yeah yeah.

[popper81]

Yeah yeah.

Hahaha.... I meant him!

[dc68]

Oh.

[Dude, Where's my Par?]

:horse:
yeah yeah

[Moe Norman]

Islam is a lot worse. Look around the world and the things being done in the name of God and religion.

You need to read up on your history.

Start with the Crusades. Christians slaughtered Jews, Muslims and anyone else (man, woman, child) in the name of restoring Christianity to a geographic location

[dc68]

I'm not denying what has happened. Open your eyes and look at the world as it is and what is happening. It's in the news everyday.

[Yossarian]

However, Christianity is responsible for far more atrocities against the human race, a fact that cannot be ignored.

Have you heard about this thing called the 20th century Moe?

[Moe Norman]

yeah, how many people have Scientology butchered in the name of religion?

I'm not aware of any myself, plenty in the 20th century by Christians though.

[Yossarian]

You are not aware of any of the atrocities of the 20th century?

EDIT

I see you are referring solely to Scientology.

[dc68]

Not in the name of Christianity.

[Yossarian]

On the Crusades and the atrocities, there is a certain overstatement of the scale in academic circles in my humble opinion. Very hard to be conclusive about it.

I also feel there is a difference doing something in the name of something and actually because of that thing. People and nations commit unspeakable acts against another not because of religion but because we are human and it is what we do. The atrocities Moe speaks of are not unique to Christianity or any religion, state, nation, person etc.

[dc68]

Adolf was never a Crusader for Christianity. Yes he was a Christian but never preached it. (And please don't think I'm a Nazi) Hirahito was not Christian, And old mate Stalin was never a true believer.I doubt chairman Mao was either. Yet those 4 fellows were responsible for more deaths than any Church you want to throw up.

[Yossarian]

Stalin was an atheist.

[dc68]

As is any good commie. Nice avatar!!!

[Dotty]

It's okay, Rubin is getting revenge on the church.

With a ProV1, a QStar and a Nike Mojo.

[Yossarian]

I lol'd.

[markTHEblake]

with the Crusades. Christians slaughtered Jews, Muslims and anyone else (man, woman, child) in the name of restoring Christianity to a geographic location
How many were killed defending western europe from the Islamic invaders? Counter-Attack is a legitimate form of defense.
If Islam had of taken over all of Europe The western would would likely be a different place today.


m not aware of any myself, plenty in the 20th century by Christians though.
Please throw a number at us, and by whom, and demonstrate how their actions reflected the nature and teachings of Jesus Christ. You know, respond like you do with stats and figures when people make stupid comments about cricketers.

[Webster]

Blake, was Jesus a gay? He hung out with a lot of blokes and is not known to have banged any babes (apart from the hooker who washed his feet when he was Tbarred at Easter.)

And I think I read somewhere that he may have been black?

[Tongueboy]

i think he might of had a good tan

[markTHEblake]

I guess I was making a large assumption that those following Deuteronomy 22, stonings would have taken place.

Pretty awful way to die I expect, my guess is that it was a really powerful deterrant.


so again, I can only assume that if there were said stonings in the Bible and no such retribution in Scientology, there have been more atrocities by Christianity??

The Siniatic covenant was pre-christianity. Seriously, if you are going to try to pick holes, you got to do more homework.

[LarryLong]

Has "evangelical atheist" been recognised as a religion yet?

[dave1]

They are all cults..... You are OCD yeah? Nah I'm far too un-organised to be OCD.:-)

[jaybam]

I thought god was supposed to be a she??

[rubin]

It's okay, Rubin is getting revenge on the church.

With a ProV1, a QStar and a Nike Mojo.

dont drag me into this shit.

[timah!]

Can we discuss Hansel and Gretel and other equally as far fetched fairytales?

[rubin]

Can we discuss Hansel and Gretel and other equally as far fetched fairytales?

im a Jedi man myself.

the way of the force.

[timah!]

im a Jedi man myself.

the way of the force.

Are Gays allowed to marry? Search your feelings, you know this to be true....

[rubin]

Are Gays allowed to marry? Search your feelings, you know this to be true....

feelings - a Jedi has not.
darkside - these will lead to.

[Yossarian]

Can we discuss Hansel and Gretel and other equally as far fetched fairytales?

Like a communist utopia? Or eugenics?

[timah!]

Like a communist utopia? Or eugenics?
Sure, why not...

[Moe Norman]

I also feel there is a difference doing something in the name of something and actually because of that thing. People and nations commit unspeakable acts against another not because of religion but because we are human and it is what we do. The atrocities Moe speaks of are not unique to Christianity or any religion, state, nation, person etc.

Ultimately, most of the conflicts (not all) are based on religious bigotry and differences, rather than any meaningful dispute. The crusades were largely a war based on 'my god is better than your god, and we want more people around here believing in mine'

[Yossarian]

Sure Moe.

Most of what conflicts?

[Moe Norman]

WW2 was a fairly large conflict with one goal being to eradicate Jews. Last time I looked, being Jewish is a religious belief.

[Yossarian]

WW2 was a fairly large conflict with one goal being to eradicate Jews. Last time I looked, being Jewish is a religious belief.

How was the eradication of the Jewish people justified Moe?

[Yossarian]

How about one of Hitler's main goals being the eradication of Russia and her peoples? Was that a religious goal, was it justified on religious grounds?

[Moe Norman]

depends who you talk to Yoss, but they were slaughtered due to a religious affiliation. Or do you think they were slaughtered for some reason other than being Jewish, and its just a cooincidence they were all Jews?

[Yossarian]

depends who you talk to Yoss, but they were slaughtered due to a religious affiliation. Or do you think they were slaughtered for some reason other than being Jewish, and its just a cooincidence they were all Jews?

What do you think Moe?

They were certainly targeted because they were Jewish, but due to the insane intolerance of Hitler built on a foundation of Darwinism and science, amongst other things. Certainly some Christian bias.

Secular thought, for want of a better term, is capable of all the crimes you attribute to religion.

It is an interesting line you are pushing, do you believe girls that dress up in short skirts deserve to be raped as well?

[Moe Norman]

I think you're confused by my line of thought if you can come up with that metaphor.

Jews didn't deserve to be slaughtered anymore than christians, muslims or scientologists. In fact nobody deserves to be slaughtered, not even gay people!

My line of thought is that if none of the religions existed, without picking on any single one in particular, the world would be a much better place and in my opinion there would be much less conflict currently, and most likely history would have had less conflict as well.

[Bruce Dickinson]

The answer is 42

[Yossarian]

I am confident the human race would have found plenty to fight about despite religion, did and will do in the future.

I think the world would be nicer without the Sistine Chapel.

[BenM]

The common element in all the conflicts in human history is not religion - it is simple human nature. By nature we are all mostly selfish and greedy, most of us learn to control it but there will always be sociopaths who are willing to perpetrate violence to achieve their ends, and unfortunately some of those are charismatic enough to get themselves into positions of leadership in government, religious groups or other places where they can influence others to do their dirty work.

[LarryLong]

WW2 was a fairly large conflict with one goal being to eradicate Jews. Last time I looked, being Jewish is a religious belief.

Isn't that a bit like blaming apartheid on the black guys?

[dc68]

The common element in all the conflicts in human history is not religion - it is simple human nature. By nature we are all mostly selfish and greedy, most of us learn to control it but there will always be sociopaths who are willing to perpetrate violence to achieve their ends, and unfortunately some of those are charismatic enough to get themselves into positions of leadership in government, religious groups or other places where they can influence others to do their dirty work. Well said.

[just]

This is one of those pointless stupid threads that deserve ridicule. I'm not sure that I can muster up the scorn it deserves.

Islam is a lot worse.


Well said.
So you retract your previous statement then?


The common element in all the conflicts in human history is not religion - it is simple human nature. By nature we are all mostly selfish and greedy, most of us learn to control it but there will always be sociopaths who are willing to perpetrate violence to achieve their ends, and unfortunately some of those are charismatic enough to get themselves into positions of leadership in government, religious groups or other places where they can influence others to do their dirty work.
And there you go. You had to mess up a reasonable statement by throwing in your Christian notion of original sin. The great weight of history shows, at least it does to me, that humans aren't mostly greedy and selfish.

[sms316]

This is one of those pointless stupid threads that deserve ridicule. I'm not sure that I can muster up the scorn it deserves. You're welcome.

[just]

At the very least it's entertaining in a looking at a car crash kind of way.

[dc68]

So you retract your previous statement then?Not at all. Currently Islamic people killing people around the world is out of control. I see no crusades happening just Jihads.

[LeftyHoges]

17813

[Minor_Threat]

17813love it!

[Lobsta]

Isn't that a bit like blaming apartheid on the black guys?

No, it's like blaming the apartheid on race.


The great weight of history shows, at least it does to me, that humans aren't mostly greedy and selfish.

Seriously?

Slavery, feudalism, piracy, the genocide of both American and Australian indigenous populations, both World Wars, both Gulf Wars. All due to greed / selfishness.

And that's just what I can come up with off the top of my head.

I'll probably think of some more once I put on some pants.

Lobby

[Webster]

Blake, why didnt you answer my black gay Jesus question?

[TheTrueReview]

I hope I can see Blue one day.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPEYb_6lgmk

[BenM]

And there you go. You had to mess up a reasonable statement by throwing in your Christian notion of original sin. The great weight of history shows, at least it does to me, that humans aren't mostly greedy and selfish.

There was no mention of original sin at all.

What I said was that man by nature is selfish and greedy. Since as long as we have records (going right back to drawings on the walls of caves) humans have been committing violence against one another, being jealous and stealing from each other, and just generally trying to look after numero uno (often at the expense of others).

Most of us as we mature (and as we develop our own moral code, whether that be based on religion or some other belief system) that in order to be part of a functioning society we have to control those urges but we all have it in us to do bad things.

Sure, we've achieved lots of great things as a species too - but those achievements are in spite of our selfish nature not because most people don't have it.

[ddasey]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6axdZAxyt2g&feature=related

[Minor_Threat]

Welease Woger!

[dc68]

I believe it's wewease Woger.

[Minor_Threat]

Wewease Wodewick..

[just]

Seriously?

Slavery, feudalism, piracy, the genocide of both American and Australian indigenous populations, both World Wars, both Gulf Wars. All due to greed / selfishness.

And that's just what I can come up with off the top of my head.
Lobby
Lobby
Can you quote where I said that there was no selfishness or greed or violence? Wait, I'll save you the time, I didn't. I just stated that I don't believe we are inherently selfish and greedy. I can give you any number of reasons why I believe this, but much like the gay marriage thread, we all already have our views and no one is going to be able to able to convince anyone else of the correctness of their case, no matter how logic or lack of it or evidence or lack of it we present. Therefore the thread is an effort in mental masturbation and this will be my last post in it. The Pope told me masturbation is a sin and he's infallible. Much like SMS I'm trying to lead a life free of sin.


There was no mention of original sin at all.
No you didn't, but you've said things which essentially amount to the same thing over


By nature we are all mostly selfish and greedy,

and over


What I said was that man by nature is selfish and greedy.

and over


we have to control those urges but we all have it in us to do bad things.

and over


are in spite of our selfish nature not because most people don't have it.

again. You are either wilfully ignorant or just truly don't understand the concept of Original Sin and how it relates to your statements. Either way I don't recommend you try and take up a career as a Moral Philosopher any time soon.

[Lobsta]

The great weight of history shows, at least it does to me, that humans aren't mostly greedy and selfish.


Lobby
Can you quote where I said that there was no selfishness or greed or violence? Wait, I'll save you the time, I didn't. I just stated that I don't believe we are inherently selfish and greedy.

Your exact quote is shown above. The assertion that I was specifically responding to was that the great weight of history shows that humans aren't mostly greedy and selfish.

I then put forward a great weight of history that provided examples of how humans were mostly selfish and greedy.

I respect your belief that humans are inherently good, but reject the assertion that the great weight of history stands testament to that.

[markTHEblake]

Blake, was Jesus a gay?
Unlikely given that the Jews universally considered homosexuality as immoral behaviour. A gay person could never have become popular in that time and place.


And I think I read somewhere that he may have been black?
There is no such thing as a black (or white person). Every human is brown, the shade varies only due to the amount of melanin our skin produces. Obviously Jesus being from the middle east would have been a lot darker than a honkey like me.


I would be interested in what the church would have to say about the discovery (finally) of the Higgs Boson particle?

The discovery of the Higgs Boson does not conflict with any Theocratic belief, dunno which church you are hoping will have a say, but it does not matter one bit.


WW2 was a fairly large conflict with one goal being to eradicate Jews.

Hitler did not start a war to eradicate Jews from Germany, he was already doing that.


Last time I looked, being Jewish is a religious belief.
Yes it is, but that does not help your argument that "plenty in the 20th century by Christians though" at all.

Here are some figures on mega-killings on the 20th Century, these atrocities you mentioned should be there. http://necrometrics.com/20c5m.htm
Please point out which ones were committed by Christians doing what Jesus Christ said to do.

[markTHEblake]

As opposed to splitting into strict versions, watered down versions, re-written versions, pc versions, convenient versions - and then having random people interpret them all in 1000 different ways depending on who you are and where you live.

I have been playing golf for a long time and it never ceases to amaze me how many golfers disregard the rules of golf. Whilst there are some that actually study the rules intently and become most proficient in understanding and applying the rules, that is quite rare. Some people know the rules and just blatantly disregard them, some just don't care and just do what they like, others are so think that even though they do read them they still get it wrong, some think they know all the rules whilst obvious to others they don't, and there are even some that barely know that there are actually rules at all.

Despite all of that the integrity of the rules is not affected by these incorrect behaviours.

[dave1]

I see most golfers obeying the rules

If they dont they soon know about it!

If your not pulling them up then your just like them.

[BenM]

You are either wilfully ignorant or just truly don't understand the concept of Original Sin and how it relates to your statements. Either way I don't recommend you try and take up a career as a Moral Philosopher any time soon.

Nah, I understand it just fine. But I still think you're adding an additional meaning to what I've actually said.

All I've done is made a couple of general statements about what drives humans to behave the way they do (based on my own observations, and the little I know of our history). As it happens I tend to think we are just born that way, it's one of the reasons we've evolved into the superior species on the planet.

But hey, whatever floats your boat.

[Yossarian]

This is one of those pointless stupid threads that deserve ridicule. I'm not sure that I can muster up the scorn it deserves.
How is the air up there?

Lock it down mods clearly this thread is done.

[Johnny Canuck]

I see most golfers obeying the rulesIf they dont they soon know about it! If your not pulling them up then your just like them. Nail on the head Dave.

[Dotty]

Nail on the head Dave.
Nope. It's nails on the wrists, and crown of thorns on the head.

[Daves]

........................Hitler did not start a war to eradicate Jews from Germany, he was already doing that............................


It was more of a case of blaming them for all the "ills", wasn't it?

[Yossarian]

It was more of a case of blaming them for all the "ills", wasn't it?

It is convoluted. If you have the time Yossarian recommends Ian Kershaw biographies Hubris and Nemesis.

[Marto65]

This is one of those pointless stupid threads that deserve ridicule. I'm not sure that I can muster up the scorn it deserves.




And yet you've become a contributor ... strange.

[sms316]

Oh...like 50 shades of Brown ? I miss that thread on TGF.

[Mububban]

I suppose my main beef with organised religion is so often it seems to actively prevent individual critical thinking and logical extension. Traditionally moreso, but it still does in the current day. For devout religious believers, they can only go so far and then a higher authority (clergy or deity) tells them "Stop thinking, just obey. This is my word and it shall not be questioned." It leads to places I don't like.

I have no problem with spirituality, but humans are so corrupt and self serving that organised religion inevitably leads to corruption and nepotism.

[razaar]

Religion is a business which preys on or may even appeal to our capacity for abstraction. Man is the only species of the higher animals on the planet that has this ability. Religion bases it's doctrine that there is a future after death, which has appeal. Nobody knows if this is right or wrong, because it is a premise with no basis in reality. Similar to the premise that life exists on other planets. It may well be that our purpose here is purely evolutionary, to advance the human species.;)

[dave1]

Nail on the head Dave. Every now and then I say something sensible :-)

[PeteyD]

Or to be a food source for the mosquito population.

[dave1]

Ok I struggle to believe the bible.

If someone was going to be nailed to a cross...Im bloody sure someone would have stepped in and said "err mmm....I think this is not a good ide..It will bloody hurt

Also carrying it up a hill ...Id be saying "if your going to nail me to it - carry it your bloody self!

And walk on water....

Former crows coach. Malcom Blight made his players walk across hot coles ..Thinking they could somehow block it out...Kinda like walking on water.

They burnt their feet! One with 2nd degree burns!

Too many holes in the bible.

[Lobsta]

Ok I struggle to believe the bible.

If someone was going to be nailed to a cross...Im bloody sure someone would have stepped in and said "err mmm....I think this is not a good ide..It will bloody hurt

Also carrying it up a hill ...Id be saying "if your going to nail me to it - carry it your bloody self!

And walk on water....

Former crows coach. Malcom Blight made his players walk across hot coles ..Thinking they could somehow block it out...Kinda like walking on water.

They burnt their feet! One with 2nd degree burns!

Too many holes in the bible.

Sensational stuff. Somebody call ACA.

[Johnny Canuck]

Dave, I think you struggle to read the bible. Do you just mildly skim it and rush to a part where you can add your input?

[Steve57]

Dave, I think you struggle to read the bible. Do you just mildly skim it and rush to a part where you can add your input?

That must be the holes he is talking about JC!!

[Daves]

Put down the glasses punters, Dave1 has completely over-ridden all the scholarly dissections of the Bible of the last 2 millennium and declared it nothing but a Furphy. Now on to the real easy questions, like the meaning of life and why your loose change always ends up in the Dryer!

[Dotty]

Surface tension, Daves.

The wet coins are bound by surface tension in the washing machine, but this disappears in the dryer.

It's the same reason why ducks float and rocks don't.

[PeteyD]

Even really really small rocks?

[Marto65]

Put down the glasses punters, Dave1 has completely over-ridden all the scholarly dissections of the Bible of the last 2 millennium and declared it nothing but a Furphy. Now on to the real easy questions, like the meaning of life and why your loose change always ends up in the Dryer!

My loose change ends up in my wifes purse.

[Daves]

My loose change ends up in my wifes purse.

Divine intervention?

[Dotty]

Even really really small rocks?
The above physics doesn't apply at your place.

Your dryer is a miniture version of a Swiss particle accelerator, which generates Higgs-Boson particles. These smash into a single black sock, converting it into 40c of loose change.

This also explains your missing socks.

[Yossarian]

Ok I struggle to believe the bible.

If someone was going to be nailed to a cross...Im bloody sure someone would have stepped in and said "err mmm....I think this is not a good ide..It will bloody hurt

Also carrying it up a hill ...Id be saying "if your going to nail me to it - carry it your bloody self!

And walk on water....

Former crows coach. Malcom Blight made his players walk across hot coles ..Thinking they could somehow block it out...Kinda like walking on water.

They burnt their feet! One with 2nd degree burns!

Too many holes in the bible.

Amazing, of all the holes you could have had a crack at....

[IamViva]

if adam and eve lived for near 1000 years was life expectancy reduced through 100's of years on incest? :-k

[PeteyD]

The earth moved faster then. Everything gets slower as it gets older

[TheTrueReview]

The above physics doesn't apply at your place.

Your dryer is a miniture version of a Swiss particle accelerator, which generates Higgs-Boson particles. These smash into a single black sock, converting it into 40c of loose change.

http://a2.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/205373_392565190792571_848267778_n.jpg

[virge666]

What about all the wonderful things about religion.

Community
Self Belief
Education
Philosophy
Music
Art
Exploration

Your selling it short if you think Religion is rooted just because of a book.

[IamViva]

What about all the wonderful things about religion.

Community
Self Belief
Education
Philosophy
Music
Art
Exploration

Your selling it short if you think Religion is rooted just because of a book.
you forgot the golf boys!

[dave1]

Sensational stuff. Somebody call ACA.

I was poking fun at it :D

[Bruce Dickinson]

even the mighty Iron Maiden are delivering a positive christian message :lol:

http://voices.yahoo.com/religious-imagery-music-iron-maiden-4259317.html

"Despite being labelled as a satanic band, Iron Maiden constantly refers to and writes about religion. Though their songs are often misconstrued or argued to be negative, the language and symbolism is used in a positive way. More often than not, the lyrics deliver a positive Christian message by putting biblical teachings using religious symbolism into context using stories that the audience can relate to. Over all, the religious imagery present in the music of Iron Maiden is positive because it uses active themes and stories to engage the audience, and through the constant explicit and implicit use of religious imagery and allusion, Iron Maiden is able to deliver a positive Christian message."

[kpac]

What about all the wonderful things about religion.

Community
Self Belief
Education
Philosophy
Music
Art
Exploration


Sh_t you're right. I'm off to church so i can get some self belief to become an explorer....
What are you on? There's a host of terrible things that have been done in the name of religion - and there's also some good things that have come about due to religion.
If the world was without religion i fail to believe all the good would stop, there is however a good argument that much of the fighting, discrimination, and child sex offences that are currently taking place and accepted/promoted in houses of god would cease.

[PeteyD]

Kent, that may be a fantasy land argument right there. Laying human kinds ills at the foot of religion is kinda convenient, given the big role it has had in all societies.

[kpac]

Bollocks Petey. It's justifiable, not fantasy.
There's good and bad things that can be credited to religion. But taking away religion from out society would not have us lose Community, Self Belief, Education, Philosophy, Music, Art, or Exploration. It would stop priests touching young boys in churches.

[PeteyD]

But it would not stop others from touching young boys. Kent that is a seriously flawed argument.

[idgolfguy]

What about the aquaducts?

[PeteyD]

And public health.

[idgolfguy]

Religion as a concept is a fine thing in my opinion. Human's are social animals and religion helps bind society.
It's extremism that cause the problems.

[PeteyD]

Extremism, Idealism, etc etc.

People doing evil things and claiming it is their God or Gods will does not make religion itself bad.

[BenM]

Religion as a concept is a fine thing in my opinion. Human's are social animals and religion helps bind society.
It's extremism that cause the problems.

Exactly.

Extreme atheists are just as dangerous to society as religious nutjobs. At the end of the day they (extremists) will all go outside the boundaries of what's acceptable to society because they believe that their own particular ideology allows or even justifies it.

I am sure some atheists will get offended by this but it's the truth http://listverse.com/2010/06/05/10-people-who-give-atheism-a-bad-name/

Bottom line, it's better not to form an opinion on someone's character based on the belief system they subscribe to but on what they actually say and do.

[markTHEblake]

It was more of a case of blaming them for all the "ills", wasn't it?

It does seem likely he was looking for a scapegoat in order to lift the german people out of their depression (pun intended) by blaming someone else for their problems, getting rid of them, and then become the national hero. But the anti-semtism has already begun in Germany long before he wrote about it in Mein Kampf.


I suppose my main beef with organised religion is so often it seems to actively prevent individual critical thinking and logical extension. Traditionally moreso, but it still does in the current day. For devout religious believers, they can only go so far and then a higher authority (clergy or deity) tells them "Stop thinking, just obey. This is my word and it shall not be questioned.".
So it might seems to you, but you present no evidence that you are thinking critically or logically, you are just slinging mud, so these are meaningless intangible claims. Rather than just quote blindly what someone else told you, how about you give precise examples of this? If not, then you are no better than those you criticise.


If someone was going to be nailed to a cross...Im bloody sure someone would have stepped in and said "err mmm....I think this is not a good ide..It will bloody hurt
The Romans were the ruling authority of the era and they used Crucifixion as one of the most painful ways to make someone suffer. Anyone attempting to usurp their authority would have got themselves killed and probably crucified as well. You really did not think that comment through at all.


There's good and bad things that can be credited to religion. But taking away religion from out society would not have us lose Community, Self Belief, Education, Philosophy, Music, Art, or Exploration.

You mean take religion away like Stalin and Mao did? You are correct in your main point though, if organised religion was taken away it would not change those things, nor the truth of whether God created us (and revealed himself to us) or not.


if adam and eve lived for near 1000 years was life expectancy reduced through 100's of years on incest? :-k

No. Please consider your question using simple science (ie genetics and hereditary) and explain to me why incest would have caused any biological issues for Adam and Eves early descendants. This is a hypothetical scenario for you of course.

Also while pondering that, considering that you think inbreeding has a negative effect on an organism over long periods of time, explain when in the model of evolution from bacteria to humans that inbreeding was no longer a good idea.

[BrisWesty]

http://www.raymondibrahim.com/11973/calls-to-destroy-egypt-great-pyramids-begin

Makes me think the Christians are the least of everybody's worries. These days they won't burn you at the stake or put a scarlet A on you.

[kpac]

It would stop priests touching young boys in churches.

But it would not stop others from touching young boys. Kent that is a seriously flawed argument.
When did i mention "others"? I'm referring specifically to a select few. But i don't care if you find that selective - i'd happily take away the church to stop just a few of the sex crimes, molestation and the like that is attributed to some of the church who have a "safe haven" to do such things. I'm not even saying that the church is to blame, it is these sicko's who are at fault, not Jesus, God, or religion BUT it is through religion that these places exist, where these few abuse their position and the, 'behind closed doors' access they have to children. The less opportunity these grubs have the better.

The argument isn't flawed at all - you are just assuming that i'm being general, which i'm not. I'm being quite specific. Would the abuse of boys by priests (etc.) be reduced if the facility where this occurred was taken away? I'm arguing it would. Would it stop all such abuse in the wider community, no. But i'd be happy just to stop a few.

[dc68]

http://www.raymondibrahim.com/11973/calls-to-destroy-egypt-great-pyramids-beginMakes me think the Christians are the least of everybody's worries. These days they won't burn you at the stake or put a scarlet A on you. As I have said they are by far the worst on the planet. And they are saying they won't stop until they have converted the world.

[PeteyD]

When did i mention "others"? I'm referring specifically to a select few. But i don't care if you find that selective - i'd happily take away the church to stop just a few of the sex crimes, molestation and the like that is attributed to some of the church who have a "safe haven" to do such things. I'm not even saying that the church is to blame, it is these sicko's who are at fault, not Jesus, God, or religion BUT it is through religion that these places exist, where these few abuse their position and the, 'behind closed doors' access they have to children. The less opportunity these grubs have the better.

The argument isn't flawed at all - you are just assuming that i'm being general, which i'm not. I'm being quite specific. Would the abuse of boys by priests (etc.) be reduced if the facility where this occurred was taken away? I'm arguing it would. Would it stop all such abuse in the wider community, no. But i'd be happy just to stop a few.

OK. I thought we were talking religion in general, not the RCC and the misreading of the word celebrate ...

I was looking at it in terms of your argument prior to it, that art etc would exist whether or not the church did etc.

[Daves]

Isn't the potential of abuse more a institutional and social structure issue, rather than anything to do with organised beliefs specifically? Abusers will end up where ever they can wield their power;
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-07-13/sex-abuse-ignored-to-avoid-bad-publicity/4127802

[PeteyD]

Pretty much.

[virge666]

Bollocks Petey. It's justifiable, not fantasy.
There's good and bad things that can be credited to religion. But taking away religion from out society would not have us lose Community, Self Belief, Education, Philosophy, Music, Art, or Exploration. It would stop priests touching young boys in churches.

Never said it would have stopped it... it would have slowed it down a shitload though. And seriously if the kiddy fiddler arguement is the best you've got, then you need to look deeper.

I would hate to think of where we would be in this country with disadvantaged people and families, if it wasn't for all the churches of all denominations and creeds helping out with food, accomodation, fund raising, schools, medical, councilling, family support and much much more.

IDGolf has said it best... extreme views in any religion or political view is always the problem. The overriding majority are great people with a strong solical ethic of community.

The other problem is that people can take advantage of that strong social ethic for idiotic means.

[virge666]

Isn't the potential of abuse more a institutional and social structure issue, rather than anything to do with organised beliefs specifically? Abusers will end up where ever they can wield their power;
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-07-13/sex-abuse-ignored-to-avoid-bad-publicity/4127802

No mate - only priests are kiddy fiddlers, if you get rid of priests - then you get rid of child abuse. The arguement is quite simple to understand...

FFS

[idgolfguy]

Organised religion is a funding activity and tax haven.

[kpac]

Never said it would have stopped it... it would have slowed it down a shitload though. And seriously if the kiddy fiddler arguement is the best you've got, then you need to look deeper.

I'm happy to elaborate further - however the child molestation is an apt example. There are houses where this is swept under the carpet, and covered up, i'd prefer this didn't occur. If you think that is frivolous, fine, we are of different opinion.




I would hate to think of where we would be in this country with disadvantaged people and families, if it wasn't for all the churches of all denominations and creeds helping out with food, accomodation, fund raising, schools, medical, councilling, family support and much much more.

This is where the bible bashers start to irritate me. Apparently, if it wasn't for the church, good people would stop doing good things? People are free to help with food, accommodation, fund raising, schools, medical, counselling, family support and much much more outside a church group. I don't need to be religious to help the disadvantaged do i?



extreme views in any religion or political view is always the problem.

Or religion in it's entirety? Seems to me that the fixation on both an explanation for "after death" and "beginning of time" exploit the weakness of humans to follow a cult. It'd be enlightening to accept that when you're dead you cease to exist and when it started we weren't here. And just get on with life, rather that wasting your time talking to some made up guy in the sky.

[kpac]

No mate - only priests are kiddy fiddlers, if you get rid of priests - then you get rid of child abuse. The arguement is quite simple to understand...

Perfect. If you were able to gleam that from anything i said, you need to learn to read.
Daves quote stands: "Abusers will end up where ever they can wield their power"
The power can be abused in the church environment, which is unfortunately evident. Removing any place where this power is easily abused is a good start IMO. It is the unfortunate reality that child abusers exist. But if you can make it harder for them, i still think it's a good start.

[Moe Norman]

No mate - only priests are kiddy fiddlers, if you get rid of priests - then you get rid of child abuse. The arguement is quite simple to understand...

FFS

While of course that is an absurd argument, there is strong research suggesting that priests becoming kiddy fiddlers is a crime of opporunity that they are driven to by the unnatural demands of celibacy placed on a priest.

I can see the point that if they were getting some loving from the ladies without being told they're going to hell, they may not sodomise the alter boy.

Then again, some people are just ****ed up regardless

[markTHEblake]

No mate - only priests are kiddy fiddlers, if you get rid of priests - then you get rid of child abuse. The arguement is quite simple to understand...FFSIMHO there is little to get rid of ''now" I doubt very much that this abuse is still happening today at the same levels. There has been far too much publicity for any kid to not complain immediately and this is not happening. Every new reported case these days is from 20-40 years ago. I'd hate to be a catholic priest or brother now that works with youths, any casual affection like a pat on the back could make them a target.

[Yossarian]

While of course that is an absurd argument, there is strong research suggesting that priests becoming kiddy fiddlers is a crime of opporunity that they are driven to by the unnatural demands of celibacy placed on a priest.

I can see the point that if they were getting some loving from the ladies without being told they're going to hell, they may not sodomise the alter boy.

Then again, some people are just ****ed up regardless

Born that way?

Do you have a link to this research Moe I would be interested to read it.

[markTHEblake]

While of course that is an absurd argument, there is strong research suggesting that priests becoming kiddy fiddlers is a crime of opporunity that they are driven to by the unnatural demands of celibacy placed on a priest.I agree with that line of thinking somewhat. But if true why don't they go for the girls?I am also sure that many of us have known for a fact that some priests were not celibate at all so I do not think we can place blame entirely on celibacy laws. I also do not beleive pedophiles see the priesthood as an opportunity either. There would be much easier ways to associate with kids

[Moe Norman]

agree on both counts Blakey.

Yoss,

No, I don't. I seem to remember it being in TIME Magazine though

[dave1]

It does seem likely he was looking for a scapegoat in order to lift the german people out of their depression (pun intended) by blaming someone else for their problems, getting rid of them, and then become the national hero. But the anti-semtism has already begun in Germany long before he wrote about it in Mein Kampf.


So it might seems to you, but you present no evidence that you are thinking critically or logically, you are just slinging mud, so these are meaningless intangible claims. Rather than just quote blindly what someone else told you, how about you give precise examples of this? If not, then you are no better than those you criticise.


The Romans were the ruling authority of the era and they used Crucifixion as one of the most painful ways to make someone suffer. Anyone attempting to usurp their authority would have got themselves killed and probably crucified as well. You really did not think that comment through at all.



You mean take religion away like Stalin and Mao did? You are correct in your main point though, if organised religion was taken away it would not change those things, nor the truth of whether God created us (and revealed himself to us) or not.



No. Please consider your question using simple science (ie genetics and hereditary) and explain to me why incest would have caused any biological issues for Adam and Eves early descendants. This is a hypothetical scenario for you of course.

Also while pondering that, considering that you think inbreeding has a negative effect on an organism over long periods of time, explain when in the model of evolution from bacteria to humans that inbreeding was no longer a good idea.

mark...I was takin the piss

[IamViva]

No. Please consider your question using simple science (ie genetics and hereditary) and explain to me why incest would have caused any biological issues for Adam and Eves early descendants. This is a hypothetical scenario for you of course.
there is reason to believe recessive deleterious alleles, inbreeding depression and/or genetic erosion exists isn't there? an example i found
A notable example is the Vadoma tribe of western Zimbabwe, many of whom carry the trait of having only two toes due to a small gene pool. Another example is Fumarase deficiency, a rare genetic disorder that leads to severe mental retardation. Over half of the known cases are in the isolated and adjoining polygamous Mormon communities of Hilldale, Utah and Colorado City, Arizona.
regarding adam and eve did they not live 900 odd years as did seth. somewhere along the line life expectancy was reduced. that why i asked if incest was to blame. as you said it is hypothetical maybe peteyd was right, maybe the world spun faster back then :)


Also while pondering that, considering that you think inbreeding has a negative effect on an organism over long periods of time, explain when in the model of evolution from bacteria to humans that inbreeding was no longer a good idea.
at the conception of some of the people who have visited this site would have been a good starting point :)



i don't pretend to know a lot on this topic, the only research ive carried out was from the horticultural side of things many year ago. most of this has been sourced now :D

[Daves]

Ah, taking the piss, the refuge of those that find themselves beyond their ability to argue or state their case further.

[PeteyD]

Stop taking the piss daves ;)

[matty]

Stephen Hawking says there is no God and we have one opportunity to enjoy existence.

Depressing really.

[kpac]

Stephen Hawking says there is no God and we have one opportunity to enjoy existence.

Depressing really.

Hardly. If you're waiting for your next turn at this life thing, you're wasting you only real chance at it.
Were you depressed about this issue prior to your birth? Cause you'll probably feel about the same way when you're dead. But that just a 'best guess'. Feel free to believe in whatever supernatural world you're holding out for.

[Minor_Threat]

Hardly. If you're waiting for your next turn at this life thing, you're wasting you only real chance at it.Were you depressed about this issue prior to your birth? Cause you'll probably feel about the same way when you're dead. But that just a 'best guess'. Feel free to believe in whatever supernatural world you're holding out for.This..

[matty]

Feel free to believe in whatever supernatural world you're holding out for.

I'm not holding out for anything. There is no supernatural world. I meant to say it's a shame we experience life for the blink of an eye. Maybe religion was created in order to better deal with one's mortality.

[kpac]

it's a shame we experience life for the blink of an eye..
too true.

[dave1]

Ah, taking the piss, the refuge of those that find themselves beyond their ability to argue or state their case further.

read the orginal post. Im not getting into religous debates

cant be bothered.

[markTHEblake]

read the orginal post. Im not getting into religous debates
cant be bothered.

No you just slander then run away. another refuge of those that.....

[markTHEblake]

This is where the bible bashers start to irritate me. Apparently, if it wasn't for the church, good people would stop doing good things? No that is not what was said or is ever said. Christian communities seem to do a lot thats all, it is a fundamental doctrine of the belief. How many people do you know that have sold everything they own and moved to the jungles of asia and africa and established orphanages, schools and the like. I know three families from my church alone doing this, but I have never heard of any one doing it outside of a Christian faith. I admit though that I do not know everyone.


People are free to help with food, accommodation, fund raising, schools, medical, counseling, family support and much much more outside a church group. I don't need to be religious to help the disadvantaged do i?
Of course not, but you do (or maybe you just write out a cheque) I cant think why though because for you there is no point, no god to answer to, no standard for right and wrong, you might as well just live live to the fullest and look after No1 and make the best of it and sod the rest.


Hardly. If you're waiting for your next turn at this life thing, you're wasting you only real chance at it.

I believe you do good things because you have a conscience, which God created in you (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans 2:14–15&version=NLT), and that has nothing to do with man made religion. Just because you do not believe this, does not mean God has stopped believing in you. However if I am mistaken, there is no god, you have no conscience, your thoughts are just the reactions of molecules in response to stimuli in accordance with the physical laws, therefore you also have no free will or free thoughts, and this applies to whatever reaction you have to this post!

So just do whatever you do and think you are happy because nothing matters - ever.

[dave1]

No you just slander then run away. another refuge of those that.....

I have stated my thoughts on religion in the other thread - I dont need to waste my time doing it here.

Im not running....sitting on a couch actually :D

[Yossarian]

And what amazing thoughts they were.

[rubin]

read the orginal post. Im not getting into religous debates

cant be bothered.

Your prior posts suggest otherwise.

[markTHEblake]

there is reason to believe recessive deleterious alleles, inbreeding depression and/or genetic erosion exists isn't there?
Indeed It does exist now, as a result of thousands of years of accumulating copying mistakes. But I asked you to address this to the Genesis framework which is the premise of your question. So tell me how many harmful mutations would Adam and Eve have had in the first place to pass down to their descendents?

[Webster]

Blake, can Christians and Athiests ever live in true harmony together respecting each others differing beliefs?

[markTHEblake]

Yes, that will happen, just before armageddon.

[Webster]

Blake, are there any parts if the Bible that you disagree with or question, or are you 100% in favor of every word it says?

[IamViva]

Indeed It does exist now, as a result of thousands of years of accumulating copying mistakes. But I asked you to address this to the Genesis framework which is the premise of your question. So tell me how many harmful mutations would Adam and Eve have had in the first place to pass down to their descendents?1, no navel... eerie i know


now a serious note, i read somewhere today that cain and kenan/kainan/cainan are believed by some to be one in the same, in your opinion dribble or possible?

[markTHEblake]

Thanks therefore the concern about recessive deleterious alleles, inbreeding depression and/or genetic erosion would not have arisen for a very long time.



Blake, are there any parts if the Bible that you disagree with or question, or are you 100% in favor of every word it says?





disagree - no
question - plenty. An inquiring mind is a healthy mind
understand - not all.


100% that would be a yes, now fire away ;)

[jaybam]

I dont believe there is a god. No one would be that much of a **** to make it rain all week and then my weekend off as well. Well except Blakey if he had some power.

[markTHEblake]

If it never rained how would you know what a nice day was?

[Mububban]

Originally Posted by Mububban
I suppose my main beef with organised religion is so often it seems to actively prevent individual critical thinking and logical extension. Traditionally moreso, but it still does in the current day. For devout religious believers, they can only go so far and then a higher authority (clergy or deity) tells them "Stop thinking, just obey. This is my word and it shall not be questioned.".


Originally Posted by markTHEblake
So it might seems to you, but you present no evidence that you are thinking critically or logically, you are just slinging mud, so these are meaningless intangible claims. Rather than just quote blindly what someone else told you, how about you give precise examples of this? If not, then you are no better than those you criticise.


I quoted myself Mark, based on a lifetime's observation. The truly devout have to set aside their own opinions and logic and simply accept the word of their chosen deity. Tom Cruise might be certifiably bonkers, but he truly believes in the space aliens that L Ron Hubbard describes.

But if you want one specific example, I saw an interview with an astrophysicist, who is also a devout Christian and works at the Creation Museum in America. Even a guy as dedicated to the scientific understanding of the universe as him said openly that when he gets to something he can't explain, he simply defaults to "God did it." He turns off the scientific part of himself, and that's that.

Here's the guy. Skip to 1:40 if you want save time:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z1xUiuZvUuw


2:48 - "If we find some experiment that on the surface appears to disagree with the word of god, we go with the word of god."

So there's one specific example of what I'm talking about, and an intelligent man such as yourself must be aware of others like him.

[markTHEblake]

The truly devout have to set aside their own opinions and logic and simply accept the word of their chosen deity.
Yes they are biased towards the biblical presupposition, However so are the truly devout athiests who also have to set aside everything and simply accept the word of naturalism (billions of years) and if anything gets in the way of that they have to discard or modify it.


But if you want one specific example, I saw an interview with an astrophysicist, who is also a devout Christian and works at the Creation Museum in America.

The first two sentences alone are an absolute crock of shit, and that just sets up the theme of this closed mind and heavily biased report that has no scientific basis. You should find a better example that actually uses science.

"...came up with their own version of science"
"creationist base their core principles not on observation and experiment, but on the bible"

Science is science there is no other versions, facts cannot speak for themselves, they have to be interpreted according to a framework. He can't tell the difference or just knows his audience can't.

The creation museum uses the Genesis account as the interpretory framework NOT the science.
Your hero in this video uses naturalism as his framework, which is also NOT the science.

Both conclusions are the result of 'good' science, in as much as origins science can be, given that there is no observational or repeatable evidence for events that happened in the past and will never happen again.

The hero has not determined the universe to be billions of years old by using research, observation, and logic, that was his initial basic unprovable assumption not the conclusion. His fallacy is that he thinks his conclusion trumps the creationists framework, he is demonstrating he as just as much faith as the creationist he mocks.


Even a guy as dedicated to the scientific understanding of the universe as him said openly that when he gets to something he can't explain, he simply defaults to "God did it."
He does not say that, but so what. That is perfectly in harmony with Genesis 1:1. Just becuase he is working from that does not mean he can know everything. Now when your atheist scientists reach the same point they just default to "billions of years did it", they are adhering to their faith just as much and are hypocritcal if the do not admit that.

Note: many scientists do get this and do not make such flawed accusations.

[razaar]

A couple of movies about golf being a religion are "The Legend of Bagger Vance" and "Seven Days in Utopia". To some golf is a religion.

[kpac]

how old do you believe the earth is MTB? just have to know....

[Moe Norman]

No that is not what was said or is ever said. Christian communities seem to do a lot thats all, it is a fundamental doctrine of the belief. How many people do you know that have sold everything they own and moved to the jungles of asia and africa and established orphanages, schools and the like. I know three families from my church alone doing this, but I have never heard of any one doing it outside of a Christian faith. I admit though that I do not know everyone.


Of course not, but you do (or maybe you just write out a cheque) I cant think why though because for you there is no point, no god to answer to, no standard for right and wrong, you might as well just live live to the fullest and look after No1 and make the best of it and sod the rest.




I know lots of people who do this sort of thing who aren't religious. They do it for the right reasons though.

The religious folk that do it often go on a preaching crusade, helping the locals is secondary.

[Boonie]

MTB,

A lot of the points you make are correct, and well made coming from your point of view. You would do very well in a debate (where the arguments are more important than the facts).

However, in amongst all the pages and paragraphs I'm convinced you don't actually know what an atheist (or atheism) actually is??

[Mububban]

Of course not, but you do (or maybe you just write out a cheque) I cant think why though because for you there is no point, no god to answer to, no standard for right and wrong, you might as well just live live to the fullest and look after No1 and make the best of it and sod the rest.

I still don't understand why someone as intelligent as you, who makes so many good informed points, keeps spouting this overly simplistic opinion about godless people. I don't get how you can't simply understand that some of us just prefer being nice to one another, and we don't need a threat of retribution or reward to do so.

As to "no standards of right or wrong", we are members of Australian society and that has some obvious cultural and legal frameworks for what is considered right and wrong. Aussie society may have moved away from religion but what we consider right and wrong still has its roots there. I just refuse to believe that you don't understand that. You seem too smart to be genuinely confused by this?

[Moe Norman]

http://www.news.com.au/national/officer-challenges-nsw-premier-for-inquiry/story-fndo4eg9-1226513383011

[meh]

http://www.news.com.au/national/officer-challenges-nsw-premier-for-inquiry/story-fndo4eg9-1226513383011

Good luck getting the o'fail government to do something. Other than **** something up I mean.

Good on him for speaking out.

[markTHEblake]

Thanks Moe, its a good article. But who or what is being discredited by these events?

[Moe Norman]

Botht eh government and the church Blakey.

[markTHEblake]

The church? I think you only mean the RCC.

[gazgolf1]

Bruno Mars is pissed off about being Locked out of Heaven.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-fA-gBCkj0

[Moe Norman]

The church? I think you only mean the RCC. Ha, you think it's isolated to one fairy tale?

[Peter]

Ha, you think it's isolated to one fairy tale?It sounds like there's a happy ending involved.

[markTHEblake]

Ha, you think it's isolated to one fairy tale?The article you quotes refers to gay pedophiles that are also catholic priests. No more no less. This has no relevance at all on what is the truth about life, universe and everything.

[Peter]

What relevance does "the truth about life, universe and everything" have on priests abusing young boys? For that matter, what the hell does that even mean?

[markTHEblake]

Peter, it means 'what has it got to do with the topic' Moe posted the article link without making a comment. Obviously he made an effort to search for this thread to post the link, so it seems he wanted to make everyone aware of something. What it is I don't know because every man and his dog is aware of the issue, so trying to get it out of him politely. :-)

[Peter]

Got it - you're saying that there's no link between religion and kiddie fiddling. Sounds familiar...

[markTHEblake]

No. That straw man does not deserve a response.

[Peter]

It was fishing line, not straw.

And don't worry, I wasn't expecting a response - the head in the sand approach is popular with religious folks.

;)

[Webster]

Blakey, if Jesus were alive today, what would he say about organized religion being responsible for the rape and sodomy of so many young boys and girls?

[markTHEblake]

And don't worry, I wasn't expecting a response - the head in the sand approach is popular with religious folks.
I only said what I said, and you did not get it. It is possible you have mistaken me with a religious person.


Blakey, if Jesus were alive today, what would he say about organized religion being responsible for the rape and sodomy of so many young boys and girls?

Jesus had no respect for organised religion back then, so he would have none now too, and that is irrespective of this issue. If I was drawing a long bow I would say he hated religion.

[BrisWesty]

Matt 18:6 But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.

Next question?

[timah!]

I found this article equally disgusting and interesting
http://m.abc.net.au/browse?page=11144&articleid=4371714&cat=National

"...God made is this way and its his fault..."

[markTHEblake]

Missed these while I was on holidays, so thanks to Thommo for reviving the thread.

how old do you believe the earth is MTB? just have to know....

thanks for asking, and the key word is believe, 6016 years, 0 months, 23 days.


I know lots of people who do this sort of thing who aren't religious. They do it for the right reasons though.
What are these right reasons and how does the atheist know they are right?


The religious folk that do it often go on a preaching crusade, helping the locals is secondary.

Generally the missionaries go on the preaching crusade primarily, whilst helping locals is secondary that does not mean their welfare is disregarded at all.


MTB, A lot of the points you make are correct, and well made coming from your point of view.
Thank you, nice to know someone actually understands what 'point of view' means (axiom, assumption, presuppositions).


However, in amongst all the pages and paragraphs I'm convinced you don't actually know what an atheist (or atheism) actually is??
It does not matter much what I think an atheist is, the point is that the only logical basis for morality the atheist can stand on is moral relativism. Yet he constantly contradicts his own world view by insisting others accept his own determination of what is right or wrong.


[/I][/COLOR] I still don't understand why someone as intelligent as you, who makes so many good informed points, keeps spouting this overly simplistic opinion about godless people. I don't get how you can't simply understand that some of us just prefer being nice to one another, and we don't need a threat of retribution or reward to do so.

I believe that the reason you prefer to be nice to each other is because God created you that way, so you see I do simply understand from my point of view why most people prefer to be nice. I do not expect you to agree with that, so that is why I ask you a question to explain it from your diametrically opposed belief.


As to "no standards of right or wrong", we are members of Australian society and that has some obvious cultural and legal frameworks for what is considered right and wrong. Aussie society may have moved away from religion but what we consider right and wrong still has its roots there. I just refuse to believe that you don't understand that. You seem too smart to be genuinely confused by this?

I understand this as I just said, I am not asking because I dont know. I am asking because I want to you to tell me according to your opposite belief system to mine why the aussie societies standard for right and wrong is the correct one - when it keeps changing by your own admissions.

[dc68]

People who believe in God should not be allowed on a golf course.

[Webster]

People who believe in God should not be allowed on a golf course.

Amen to that.

[razaar]

If you can remember what it was like before you were born there maybe something in this after death thingy. Otherwise wise we may be here only to advance our species, the same as appears the case with every other life form on the planet. IMO religion is a business.

[Ashes]

I believe that the reason you prefer to be nice to each other is because God created you that way, so you see I do simply understand from my point of view why most people prefer to be nice. I do not expect you to agree with that, so that is why I ask you a question to explain it from your diametrically opposed belief.

Excuse my possible ignorance, but didn't god supposedly give us free will? Or was just like an election promise and wasn't supposed to be take seriously?

[markTHEblake]

Excuse my possible ignorance, but didn't god supposedly give us free will? Yes of course he did but obviously the atheist does not believe that.

[Webster]

Blakey, if Jesus were alive today, would he have used a belly putter?

[damoocow]

Heard an interesting news story on the ABC this morning saying that the Church covering up child abuse means that it is the same as an organised crime syndicate.

[markTHEblake]

Jesus is a smart guy, he wouldn't get sucked into using any gimmicks like a belly putter which give no advantage at all.

[Peter]

I only said what I said, and you did not get it.That seems to happen to you a lot.

[Moe Norman]

Some quality stuff here.

In a related note, here is more of the fine work of religious folk, particularly the good christians of Africa and the belief system preached to them by those missionaries Blake is so pleased with.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-20318436

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uganda_Anti-Homosexuality_Bill


The proposed legislation in Uganda has been noted by several news agencies to be inspired by Christian missionaries. A special motion to introduce the legislation was passed a month after a two-day conference was held in which three foreign Christians asserted that homosexuality is a direct threat to the cohesion of African families. "



In April 2009, a local Ugandan newspaper printed the names of suspected homosexuals, another printed tips on how to identify gays for the general public, and, in October 2010, another named Rolling Stone (unaffiliated with the American Rolling Stone) published a story featuring a list of the nation's 100 "top" gays and lesbians with their photos and addresses. Next to the list was a yellow strip with the words "hang them". Julian Pepe, a program coordinator for Sexual Minorities Uganda, said people named in the story are living in fear and attacks have begun prompting many to abandon their jobs while some have relocated. The paper's editor justified the list to expose gays and lesbians so authorities could arrest them, while Nsaba Buturo dismissed complaints from gay people and sympathisers by stating that protests about the outing is part of a campaign to mobilise support and sympathy from outside the country.
On 26 January 2011, Uganda's most prominent gay activist, David Kato, was found bludgeoned to death.




I suppose at least their secondary aim is to indoctrinate the next generation look after orphans!

[Minor_Threat]

People who believe in God should not be allowed on a golf course.
Here here!

[kev]

Out of curiosity, where do Mormons fit into the hierarchy?

[3Puttpete]

Out of curiosity, where do Mormons fit into the hierarchy? Nearly moved up a few spots last week but missed out so they're still on the fringe

[Dotty]

Out of curiosity, where do Mormons fit into the hierarchy?
Better. With the stronger Aussie dollar, we no longer have the flood of young opinionated yanks doing 'missionary' work in Sydney suburbs, by ringing dorrbells or harrassing punters outside shops.

There is a big Mormon church/college/admin-centre a few suburbs away. They still put on an OTT nativity scene though, with lots of camels, wise men and stables. (Not much in the way of Santa, Frosty or Dora the Explorer.)

[Webster]

Blakey, when Jesus felt the natural urge to masturbate, which historical famale figure would he look at an etching/rock carving/stick scroll of to get him over the line?

[sms316]

It would have been a "stick scroll".

[Webster]

Thanks SMS, noted and edited.

[idgolfguy]

He did have a hooker hanging round the boys.

[BrisWesty]

I have friends who grew up in very remote PNG in the 1960s, whose parents went to bring the gospel to a stone age tribe of people. In the last couple of years that community has put in a mobile tower. In 50 years this tribe has gone from the stone age to the current day.
http://www.wesleyan.org.au/around-the-churches/22-from-the-ns/152-png-50th-anniversary.html

http://www.missionfrontiers.org/issue/article/return-to-irian-jaya
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don_Richardson_(missionary)
Cannibals and headhunters no longer.

http://stjoecrosspointe.wordpress.com/2011/07/11/the-yali-tribe-celebrating-50-years-of-jesus/
http://smythe.me/2011/03/bible-celebrations-in-indonesia-kimyal-receive-bibles/
The Yali tribe murdered the first missionaries who went there, again in the 1960s.


It's very easy for us to sneer at what missionaries do. Maybe as a missionary's kid (although not in such remote surroundings), I'm a little biased; but I am in awe of the courage that these men and women showed. (And yes, I did meet a local man who had eaten human flesh. He had gone to a remote island with a group, and they were welcomed with a feast. It wasn't till after the feast they were advised that the locals had killed a child and cooked it in their honour! He spent the next three days trying to bring it up again.)

You know Moe, I'm a peaceable guy, but you seem to have little idea about missions or missionaries. (The stuff I've flagged above is only 50 years ago!) You can be as culturally superior as you want and look down your nose or consider them as cranks, but please note, we as a country don't go in for human sacrifice to appease the gods. We don't cannibalise other people. We don't have crap life expectancy because of disease or internal tribal feuds. So rather than sneer at them, how about a little kudos to people who have put their lives on the line to go bush and help out their fellow man.

And as a final kicker, why not ask the people in those communities and tribes which life they prefer? Whether they're happier with Christianity than their old ways?

[markTHEblake]

Blakey, when Jesus felt the natural urge to masturbate, which historical famale figure would he look at an etching/rock carving/stick scroll of to get him over the line?

Grasshopper, haven't we had this conversation before? One of the fundamental basics that Christianity stands on is that Jesus Christ was sinless, so I don't think I need to cover that in any detail. Now we also know that Jesus said in the Sermon on the Mount that lustful thoughts for a woman (http://bible.cc/matthew/5-28.htm) (outside of your own wife) is a sin, so we can unequivocally claim that he never did that, unless you can demonstrate that Jesus was a hypocrite. Now as you imply that all men are tempted, Jesus clearly showed that no amount of temptation would cause him to waiver when satan tested him in the wilderness (http://niv.scripturetext.com/matthew/4-1.htm).


He did have a hooker hanging round the boys.

Did he? I think someone has been taking in too much Dan Brown :-) Mary Magdalene was not a prostitute.

[idgolfguy]

Did he? I think someone has been taking in too much Dan Brown :-) Mary Magdalene was not a prostitute.
Some believe she was and had been redeemed by him and that he fathered her children.

Interesting that Jesus was referenced in the Koran and there are also writings in India referencing him around or just after his death.

[markTHEblake]

In a related note, here is more of the fine work of religious folk, particularly the good christians of Africa and the belief system preached to them by those missionaries Blake is so pleased with.

I have said over and over, that Christians are the worst advertisement for Christianity. Jesus Christ never said to follow the example of his followers, he and his followers said to follow Christs example. If you want to discredit Christianity then its Christ you need to be discrediting, not us. We already know we fall short, so you reminding us is just reinforcing what we already know. I am not saying that Africans you refer to are right or wrong, you may well be right, but that is not my point at all.

This topic you raised is just another example of you claiming that your own standard of morality is the absolute right one and others who choose differently are wrong, in other words you are claiming an absolute. I have asked you many times and you avoid answering the question every time. What is the logical basis for your standard of right and wrong? as it is different from many others, including myself, Briswesty, anti-gay Ugandans, PNG Cannibals, and carlton supporters.

[3Puttpete]

Steady on there MTB! I don't mind anyone having a crack at your God, someone else's God or even at a bloke for his lack of a God to believe in but now you've gone too far. Carlton supporters, really? The CFC is the single source of truth. Sing with me Da da da da da....carry on

[markTHEblake]

That seems to happen to you a lot.
You are welcome to demonstrate that by making clear references. Happy to reconsider anything that I have misunderstood.


Some believe she was and had been redeemed by him and that he fathered her children.
I know they believe that, but this is total fiction coming from the likes of Dan Brown and the "Jesus Papers", who manufactured the idea from the Gospels of Mary and Philip, which do not even mention this 'fact' at all. All Mary does is try validate her role as a leader. Philip refers to her as companion, which loosely means business partner, freind, colleague etc. There are other words to describe wife if that is what the writer wanted to say. Also these were written some 200 years after Christ, and is regarded unanimously by scholars as not authentic, which gives zero credibility to these such claims.


Interesting that Jesus was referenced in the Koran
I don't think thats interesting, as there are lots of similarities, people and events. The Koran is a rewrite of Judeo/Christian history according to Mohammed's revised revelations, after he was rejected as a prophet. He claimed the original scriptures had been corrupted.


and there are also writings in India referencing him around or just after his death.
I have not looked into these claims before, does not even rate a mention in anything I have read on the topic of alternative writings.

[BrisWesty]

Interesting that Jesus was referenced in the Koran and there are also writings in India referencing him around or just after his death.

According to friends of mine who are Christians from India, apparently Thomas (the disciple who was known as Doubting Thomas) went to India after Jesus' death and resurrection and spread the gospel there. (Now why would a guy who is probably more famous for his lack of faith go and do that?) http://www.ichthus.info/Disciples/intro.html includes the following extract.

"Hippolytus records that Thomas was an active missionary, and that he met his fate in India:

And Thomas preached to the Parthians, Medes, Persians, Hyrcanians, Bactrians, and Margians, and was thrust through in the four members of his body with a pine spear at Calamene, the city of India, and was buried there."

According to the link, apparently the disciple, Bartholomew also preached in India. I didn't know that till today.

A second link about Christianity in India - http://old.mbconf.ca/mb/mbh3509/christin.htm I love history, especially finding out stuff I didn't know before.

[sms316]

I have friends who grew up in very remote PNG in the 1960s, whose parents went to bring the gospel to a stone age tribe of people. In the last couple of years that community has put in a mobile tower. In 50 years this tribe has gone from the stone age to the current day. http://www.wesleyan.org.au/around-the-churches/22-from-the-ns/152-png-50th-anniversary.html http://www.missionfrontiers.org/issue/article/return-to-irian-jaya http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don_Richardson_(missionary)Cannibals and headhunters no longer.http://stjoecrosspointe.wordpress.com/2011/07/11/the-yali-tribe-celebrating-50-years-of-jesus/ http://smythe.me/2011/03/bible-celebrations-in-indonesia-kimyal-receive-bibles/The Yali tribe murdered the first missionaries who went there, again in the 1960s.It's very easy for us to sneer at what missionaries do. Maybe as a missionary's kid (although not in such remote surroundings), I'm a little biased; but I am in awe of the courage that these men and women showed. (And yes, I did meet a local man who had eaten human flesh. He had gone to a remote island with a group, and they were welcomed with a feast. It wasn't till after the feast they were advised that the locals had killed a child and cooked it in their honour! He spent the next three days trying to bring it up again.) You know Moe, I'm a peaceable guy, but you seem to have little idea about missions or missionaries. (The stuff I've flagged above is only 50 years ago!) You can be as culturally superior as you want and look down your nose or consider them as cranks, but please note, we as a country don't go in for human sacrifice to appease the gods. We don't cannibalise other people. We don't have crap life expectancy because of disease or internal tribal feuds. So rather than sneer at them, how about a little kudos to people who have put their lives on the line to go bush and help out their fellow man.And as a final kicker, why not ask the people in those communities and tribes which life they prefer? Whether they're happier with Christianity than their old ways? Hey Westy, I need to know - did it taste like chicken?

[Webster]

Baby chicken? The other other white meat.

[BrisWesty]

Hey Westy, I need to know - did it taste like chicken?

Apparently human flesh tastes like pork. If the waiter ever describes the meat on the dish as "long pig", do not, I repeat, do not consume.

[Peter]

You are welcome to demonstrate that by making clear references. Happy to reconsider anything that I have misunderstood.
You misunderstood my point. :D

I was saying that people seem to misunderstand you a lot - if you want a reference for that, go back and look at your posts in the discussion on that poor girl who was recently killed in Melbourne.

[Webster]

Blakey, I'm still a bit unclear on the masturbation question.

Are you saying it's a sin to have a wank, or just a sin to think about someone other than your missus when having a wank?

Thanks, Jack.

[idgolfguy]

Apparently human flesh tastes like pork. If the waiter ever describes the meat on the dish as "long pig", do not, I repeat, do not consume.Cooked human flesh does smell like roast pork with crackling.

...have not tasted any though.

[dc68]

What are the ribs like Vic?

[idgolfguy]

Pork ribs beat beef ribs every time.

During the Kobe earthquake, I volunteered in some of the cleanup. Unfortunately, had to drag out some burnt bodies.

Put me off eating pork for nearly a year.

[markTHEblake]

Are you saying it's a sin to have a wank, or just a sin to think about someone other than your missus when having a wank? .I am pretty sure I only said what is a sin l, not what isn't. Simple fact is there is no scriptural reference for this so I imagine it was not an issue for the Israelites. If one was really motivated they might be able to propose a sound argument for what you are saying and many have but honestly I don't care, I am not the one you would have to convince. The one you do knows your thoughts. If it was me, I would be mindful of Mark 9:43
and if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than with two hands to go to hellOuch.

[razaar]

Journo Paul Sheehan's article "muddying waters on way to the polls" in today's SMH is worth a read.

[markTHEblake]

Indeed it is Raz. http://m.smh.com.au/opinion/politics/muddying-waters-on-way-to-polls-20121118-29k4v.htmlAlbeit not quite on topic :-). Wasn't there an Abbot bashing Ranga loving thread somewhere else?

[Mububban]

I have friends who grew up in very remote PNG in the 1960s, whose parents went to bring the gospel to a stone age tribe of people. In the last couple of years that community has put in a mobile tower. In 50 years this tribe has gone from the stone age to the current day.......

You can be as culturally superior as you want and look down your nose or consider them as cranks, but please note, we as a country don't go in for human sacrifice to appease the gods. We don't cannibalise other people. We don't have crap life expectancy because of disease or internal tribal feuds. So rather than sneer at them, how about a little kudos to people who have put their lives on the line to go bush and help out their fellow man.

And as a final kicker, why not ask the people in those communities and tribes which life they prefer? Whether they're happier with Christianity than their old ways?

That would be a very interesting question to have answered. Nobody doubts the courage of missionaries, but are the people they "save" actually happier being taught guilt for their sins? Or would they prefer to just live their own way of life. Stone age or not, they used to be masters of their own fate, and now they're not. I'm sure they appreciate medicine and a longer life expectancy, but they've had to trade their whole way of life to get it. I would genuinely like to hear if they are happier or not.

[BrisWesty]

That would be a very interesting question to have answered. Nobody doubts the courage of missionaries, but are the people they "save" actually happier being taught guilt for their sins? Or would they prefer to just live their own way of life. Stone age or not, they used to be masters of their own fate, and now they're not. I'm sure they appreciate medicine and a longer life expectancy, but they've had to trade their whole way of life to get it. I would genuinely like to hear if they are happier or not.

Mububban, in a lot of ways I think we embrace the idea of the noble savage and think their original religion and way of life must have been somewhat of a cultural utopia, rather than actually look at what people's lives were like, or what they were expected to do within their old ways.

For example, if you read Lords of the Earth by Don Richardson, there was way more fear involved in having to appease the Kembu spirits, than Christianity. You step in the wrong place, you do the wrong thing in an initiation ceremony - you were killed. Coming out of that environment, they aren't upset about giving up the old ways.

[markTHEblake]

Nobody doubts the courage of missionaries, but are the people they "save" actually happier being taught guilt for their sins?
Quite the strawman there, it is redemption that is taught.


Or would they prefer to just live their own way of life. Stone age or not, they used to be masters of their own fate, and now they're not.
If there is no god, you are probably right. Regardless it is a nonsense argument imposing your unprovable atheist world view on the missionaries actions. If you are trying to find a way to convince us that they are wrong to convert these people you need to do that from *within* the Christians unprovable world view. In other words, pick up a bible, find a passage and say "see, it says right here that is wrong". I will make a debater out of you yet.


I'm sure they appreciate medicine and a longer life expectancy, but they've had to trade their whole way of life to get it.
Everlasting life is worth more than those ancillary things. I know you do not believe in that, but no missionary is putting his life on the line just because the bible tells people to be nice, but because they believe it is the absolute truth. They are doing precisely what God has commanded, "tell the world the good news" and from their perspective there is nothing more important. Feel free to demonstrate why it shouldn't be - from their perspective not yours.


I would genuinely like to hear if they are happier or not.
Here is your genuine answer from one guy called Mincaye (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mincaye).
We acted badly, badly, until they brought us God's carvings (the Bible). Then, seeing His carvings and following His good trail, now we live happily and in peace.

He is famous for being one of the murderers of the 5 missionaries in Ecuador about 50 years ago. He is from the reclusive Woudani people who lived a very violent lifestyle that cannot be described. Disputes were settled by the death of one, when a man died his wife and children were buried with them, they did not know what it was like to grow old. They would kill each other as easily as you would tell someone to get stuffed. They were on a fast track to destruction and likely to be wiped out by the military as they were more than a nuisance. The tribe was 'saved' shortly after by some of the wives of the missionaries who went and lived with them afterwards. Steve Saint, one of the sons, eventually grew up back in USA, returned as an adult and has since become the best friend and adopted son of Mincaye, the very man who murdered his dad. This is an awesome story told in a movie "End of the Spear" and documentary "Beneath the Gates of Splendour", numerous websites, and at least one other documentary. So you can hear it from his own mouth if you like, even on You Tube.

Just imagine, if you became face to face with the man who murdered your dad in cold blood, what your reaction might be. I can only imagine most people would be wanting justice. All of the affected families are grateful for the death of the 5 missionaries as the sacrifice has saved the lives of so many more both in this life (and the next).

[Moe Norman]

I have friends who grew up in very remote PNG in the 1960s, whose parents went to bring the gospel to a stone age tribe of people. In the last couple of years that community has put in a mobile tower. In 50 years this tribe has gone from the stone age to the current day.
http://www.wesleyan.org.au/around-the-churches/22-from-the-ns/152-png-50th-anniversary.html

http://www.missionfrontiers.org/issue/article/return-to-irian-jaya
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don_Richardson_(missionary)
Cannibals and headhunters no longer.

http://stjoecrosspointe.wordpress.com/2011/07/11/the-yali-tribe-celebrating-50-years-of-jesus/
http://smythe.me/2011/03/bible-celebrations-in-indonesia-kimyal-receive-bibles/
The Yali tribe murdered the first missionaries who went there, again in the 1960s.


It's very easy for us to sneer at what missionaries do. Maybe as a missionary's kid (although not in such remote surroundings), I'm a little biased; but I am in awe of the courage that these men and women showed. (And yes, I did meet a local man who had eaten human flesh. He had gone to a remote island with a group, and they were welcomed with a feast. It wasn't till after the feast they were advised that the locals had killed a child and cooked it in their honour! He spent the next three days trying to bring it up again.)

You know Moe, I'm a peaceable guy, but you seem to have little idea about missions or missionaries. (The stuff I've flagged above is only 50 years ago!) You can be as culturally superior as you want and look down your nose or consider them as cranks, but please note, we as a country don't go in for human sacrifice to appease the gods. We don't cannibalise other people. We don't have crap life expectancy because of disease or internal tribal feuds. So rather than sneer at them, how about a little kudos to people who have put their lives on the line to go bush and help out their fellow man.

And as a final kicker, why not ask the people in those communities and tribes which life they prefer? Whether they're happier with Christianity than their old ways?

I only just caught this post, thanks to someone quoting it.

I don't understand the relevance. What has bringing someone from the stone age, to current day got to do with religion?

The primary aim of missionaries is to spread their belief and impose it on others, the fantastic help they provide is merely secondary. There are many people out there that go and do similar work with the only objective being to help others, not to spread 'gospel'.

Personally, I think the missionaries do good work despite their intentions, while the others do great work because of their intention is to help.


We don't have crap life expectancy because of disease

Yep, thanks to science and medicine. Nothing to do with the 'gospel' I'm afraid.

[BrisWesty]

I only just caught this post, thanks to someone quoting it.

I don't understand the relevance. What has bringing someone from the stone age, to current day got to do with religion?

The primary aim of missionaries is to spread their belief and impose it on others, the fantastic help they provide is merely secondary. There are many people out there that go and do similar work with the only objective being to help others, not to spread 'gospel'.

Personally, I think the missionaries do good work despite their intentions, while the others do great work because of their intention is to help.



Yep, thanks to science and medicine. Nothing to do with the 'gospel' I'm afraid.

Moe,

A lot of tribes haven't handled the movement from stone age culture to modern culture very well. It's no longer really possible for tribes to be left untouched or unaffected. Someone will contact them.

You're an intelligent man, but you continue to demonstrate prejudice against missionaries. "Despite." Seriously? I haven't dissed World Vision, Compassion or any of the other charities or NGOs that do great work in the third world (whether religious or non-religious). Please let me provide an extract of the Mission Frontiers link http://www.missionfrontiers.org/issue/article/return-to-irian-jaya because you don't appear to have grasped the significance of it. Here goes:

The "second generation problem," Richardson observed, is much less severe for the Sawi than in many other cultures. But the children of the next generation are often weak Christians because they have not seen the horrors of the old way.

A significant drop in spiritual enthusiasm often occurs in a culture that has been profoundly changed by the Gospel. The first generation is deeply committed to God and thankful for the dramatic change in their lives and culture.

However, in the case of the Sawi, the problem has been minimized by a concentrated effort to present the Gospel to this second generation.

As a result of the work of Don and Carol Richardson and their sucessors, John and Esther Mills, Jim and Joan Yost, and Ken and Mary Studd, the Sawi church has grown from 30% of the 2,800 member tribe when Richardson visited in 1977 to 60% of the tribe today.

Because of their work, the Sawi, unlike some other tribes of lrian Jaya, stand a good chance of resisting the destructive forces of the encroaching outer world.

Richardson said that the tribe has learned to use its economic tools and should be able to maintain its land base and self respect throughout increasing interaction with the secular economy and the Muslim faith of the majority.

Often, he said, those tribes unprepared to face the outer world sink into apathy and degenerate into beggars, prostitutes, thieves, and murderers. That apathy and degeneration combined with the introduction of diseases for which they have no immunity sometimes completely destroys a tribe. More rarely, he said, the tribe is absorbed through intermarriage into the larger culture.

Richardson said his visit has caused him to "appreciate more than ever the value of establishing churches cross culturally and translating the scriptures for those churches so the continuity of the work is assured."


Please focus on the second and third last paragraphs of the extract above. I'm not an anthropologist, but a lot of missionaries actually are. They study the tribe they work with. They gain an understanding of what makes the people tick. They are there because they actually care about the people, just like the agencies I've mentioned above. It's not just about "saving souls". It's no longer, "me bwana, you savages", like it used to be.

By the way, I note the deletion of my words "internal tribal feuds", which can be attributed in part to the calming and civilising components of the gospel. The fruits of the Holy Spirit, despite how a lot of Christians live, are love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self control. When you've come from a violent culture, unless you change your ways or realise there is a different way to behave, you will continue to generally behave or react according to the way you have grown up or been taught.

MTB has provided other useful references too.

[Moe Norman]

But the children of the next generation are often weak Christians because they have not seen the horrors of the old way.

what a complete load of bollocks.


A significant drop in spiritual enthusiasm often occurs in a culture that has been profoundly changed by the Gospel. The first generation is deeply committed to God and thankful for the dramatic change in their lives and culture.

i'm sorry, but what does this even mean?


As a result of the work of Don and Carol Richardson and their sucessors, John and Esther Mills, Jim and Joan Yost, and Ken and Mary Studd, the Sawi church has grown from 30% of the 2,800 member tribe when Richardson visited in 1977 to 60% of the tribe today.

Because of their work, the Sawi, unlike some other tribes of lrian Jaya, stand a good chance of resisting the destructive forces of the encroaching outer world.

Because they go to church, they stand a good chance of resisting destructive forces? Are we taking the piss here, or is that real statement?


Richardson said that the tribe has learned to use its economic tools and should be able to maintain its land base and self respect throughout increasing interaction with the secular economy and the Muslim faith of the majority.

More meaningless verbosity, though if I'm reading it right - there is an ironic little dig at another faith based religion?


Often, he said, those tribes unprepared to face the outer world sink into apathy and degenerate into beggars, prostitutes, thieves, and murderers. That apathy and degeneration combined with the introduction of diseases for which they have no immunity sometimes completely destroys a tribe.

The gospel prepares a tribe to face the outside world? Or education, science, economics and basic understanding of external culture and accepted norms for right/wrong?

I do like the message though. Go to church and prepare youself for the outside world and live a full and happy life, don't go to church and become a beggar, prostiture, thief or murderer! You may even catch a disease if you aren't attending church, look out you heathen savage!


Richardson said his visit has caused him to "appreciate more than ever the value of establishing churches cross culturally and translating the scriptures for those churches so the continuity of the work is assured."


I'm sure it did, given his goal is to establish churches and translate scriptures so the gospel can be spread! I appreciate the value of going to work and collecting a pay cheque, given thats what I am aiming for...


They study the tribe they work with. They gain an understanding of what makes the people tick.

Then tell them the Church will be their enternal saviour, otherwise they will become thieves, murderers, prostitutes, beggars and catch diseases?

PS: I didn't delete any words, I quoted an extract with no exclusions or editing. I do find it rather ironic that religion is being credited with avoiding tribal feuds, given the global history of conflict with religion as a centre piece.


When you've come from a violent culture, unless you change your ways or realise there is a different way to behave, you will continue to generally behave or react according to the way you have grown up or been taught.

Or you will learn right from wrong and become a reasonable human being, which is easily achieved without the need for the gospel or the holy spirit.

[BrisWesty]

"But the children of the next generation are often weak Christians because they have not seen the horrors of the old way. "

what a complete load of bollocks.

"A significant drop in spiritual enthusiasm often occurs in a culture that has been profoundly changed by the Gospel. The first generation is deeply committed to God and thankful for the dramatic change in their lives and culture."

i'm sorry, but what does this even mean?

"As a result of the work of Don and Carol Richardson and their sucessors, John and Esther Mills, Jim and Joan Yost, and Ken and Mary Studd, the Sawi church has grown from 30% of the 2,800 member tribe when Richardson visited in 1977 to 60% of the tribe today.

Because of their work, the Sawi, unlike some other tribes of lrian Jaya, stand a good chance of resisting the destructive forces of the encroaching outer world."

Because they go to church, they stand a good chance of resisting destructive forces? Are we taking the piss here, or is that real statement?

"Richardson said that the tribe has learned to use its economic tools and should be able to maintain its land base and self respect throughout increasing interaction with the secular economy and the Muslim faith of the majority."

More meaningless verbosity, though if I'm reading it right - there is an ironic little dig at another faith based religion?

"The gospel prepares a tribe to face the outside world? Or education, science, economics and basic understanding of external culture and accepted norms for right/wrong?

I do like the message though. Go to church and prepare youself for the outside world and live a full and happy life, don't go to church and become a beggar, prostiture, thief or murderer! You may even catch a disease if you aren't attending church, look out you heathen savage!"

"Richardson said his visit has caused him to "appreciate more than ever the value of establishing churches cross culturally and translating the scriptures for those churches so the continuity of the work is assured.""

I'm sure it did, given his goal is to establish churches and translate scriptures so the gospel can be spread! I appreciate the value of going to work and collecting a pay cheque, given thats what I am aiming for...

"They study the tribe they work with. They gain an understanding of what makes the people tick."

Then tell them the Church will be their enternal saviour, otherwise they will become thieves, murderers, prostitutes, beggars and catch diseases?

PS: I didn't delete any words, I quoted an extract with no exclusions or editing. I do find it rather ironic that religion is being credited with avoiding tribal feuds, given the global history of conflict with religion as a centre piece.

"When you've come from a violent culture, unless you change your ways or realise there is a different way to behave, you will continue to generally behave or react according to the way you have grown up or been taught."

Or you will learn right from wrong and become a reasonable human being, which is easily achieved without the need for the gospel or the holy spirit.


Moe,

I'm sorry you have such a low opinion of Christianity, and appear to have such a low opinion of Christians and their motives as well.

Why do you consider that quote to be bollocks? That's the evidence of a man who has spent over 50 years of his life researching tribes, communities, and numerous religions apart from Christianity.

Given you indicated you don't even understand the comment about subsequent generations, let me see if I can explain it in a financial sense. Often times people who have generated a large fortune, find that subsequent generations of their family squander it; whether through not understanding financial principles, irresponsible behaviour etc. Given you have worked in the financial and development sector and seem to move with powerful people you can probably recognise examples of this.

"Because they go to church, they stand a good chance of resisting destructive forces? Are we taking the piss here, or is that real statement?"

Going to church has nothing to do with it, but I'll expand on this in one of your other comments.

"Or education, science, economics and basic understanding of external culture and accepted norms for right/wrong? I do like the message though. Go to church and prepare youself for the outside world and live a full and happy life, don't go to church and become a beggar, prostiture, thief or murderer! You may even catch a disease if you aren't attending church, look out you heathen savage!"

Would you prefer these tribes remain uneducated "savages"? Are you suggesting that the missionaries don't teach them about any of this other stuff either? You seem to see this as an either/or outcome (or maybe you're just doing this to stir). Would you prefer they be treated as sub-human by people from outside the church who may abuse them financially, emotionally, physically, etc? (I'm just waiting for a rant about abuse in the church - Please note I believe those abusers should be dealt with by the full measure of the law.) Seriously though, there are so many tribal groups in the world who have been decimated through bad interaction with "invaders".

The full sentence was "We don't have crap life expectancy because of disease or internal tribal feuds." Sorry Moe, but you did edit my words by only dealing with part of what I said. Medicine does play a part, but so does not trying to kill or grievously wound each other!

I get the irony about conflict, but as for the "religion as a tool for global conflict", are you going to bring up the Crusades? That's several hundred years ago.
How about the conflicts in the former Yugoslavia?
Or Shiites beating up on Sunnis etc (Muslim Iran vs Muslim Iraq)?
Or Darfur in the Sudan (Muslim/Christian)?
How about Hutus and Tutsis in Rwanda (was that religiously motivated or simply tribal)?
What's happening to the Copts in Egypt since the Arab Spring?

I would recommend you check out Barnabas Fund with respect to some of what is going on in the wider world. That is all bad stuff. None of it is good. Some of it is aggression, some of it is self defence.

Getting back to Don Richardson's experience with the Sawi people, when the Sawi lifestyle venerated treachery above kindness; when Judas was the hero of the story because he betrayed Jesus; how would they then learn what we consider to be right or wrong?
Through someone sitting down with them and saying in a language they don't understand, "Sorry, but you can't eat people anymore, and if you do we will put you in jail or shoot you." Good luck with that.

Moe, you seem to keep getting hung up about the church. Did you have a bad experience? If so, I'm really sorry. Not all churches are like that, but they are filled with imperfect hypocrites (and I'm one of them).

Peace.

[BenM]

Given you indicated you don't even understand the comment about subsequent generations, let me see if I can explain it in a financial sense. Often times people who have generated a large fortune, find that subsequent generations of their family squander it; whether through not understanding financial principles, irresponsible behaviour etc. Given you have worked in the financial and development sector and seem to move with powerful people you can probably recognise examples of this.

Or to put it another way, people often don't value things that they haven't had to work for.


"Because they go to church, they stand a good chance of resisting destructive forces? Are we taking the piss here, or is that real statement?"

Going to church doesn't make you a Christian any more than standing in a garage makes you a car. That's copyright from someone or other (not me).... :)

It's nothing to do with going to church. It's the principles that you live by and the strength you gain from faith, and I think Moe knows that. Critics of religion say that people are weak if they need external sources of strength, or want to believe in a sky fairy or whatever disrespectful comments that they want to make.

If they feel they can do without it nobody is forcing them to have it. But that's not really any excuse for deliberately misrepresenting what someone said in order to ridicule it, that's usually called a strawman and is a sign of someone who really isn't interested in discussing the issue properly.

[Mububban]

Basic Sunday school question - what happens to the souls of those who have never heard of "the one true god" and have lived their whole lives by their own tribal ways? They haven't rejected the gospel, they just have never known it existed. What happens when they die?

[BrisWesty]

Basic Sunday school question - what happens to the souls of those who have never heard of "the one true god" and have lived their whole lives by their own tribal ways? They haven't rejected the gospel, they just have never known it existed. What happens when they die?

God will judge and not me (thank goodness). Here's a few links that expand on this, based simply on a bing search of "those who have never heard"

http://carm.org/what-happens-those-who-have-never-heard-gospel
http://www.apologeticspress.org/apcontent.aspx?category=11&article=423
http://www.gotquestions.org/never-heard.html
http://www.comparativereligion.com/neverheard.html
http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/neverheard.html
http://www.grmi.org/Richard_Riss/evidences2/28nev.html
http://www.net-burst.net/hot/heathen.htm
http://www.letusreason.org/Apolo17.htm

There is an interesting book called Eternity in their Hearts that deals with the issue that many tribes/cultures etc have a God story.

[Dotty]

Basic Sunday school question - what happens to the souls of those who have never heard of "the one true god" and have lived their whole lives by their own tribal ways? They haven't rejected the gospel, they just have never known it existed. What happens when they die?
They get to wander around factory outlets, for all eternity.

[Grunt]

As always Dotty a nice one liner to bring it back.

I really think religion is a no go zone with so many opinions it only ever starts trouble.