Interesting article on scoring and the short game.

[CobraSS]

http://professional.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702303753904577454662959172648.html

[popper81]

That is a interesting read, and it makes valid points.... When you hit it ordinary, like I do, short game keeps you in the game though.

[wazandnic]

Nice read. Good to hear this sort of argument for a change.

I have a constant battle with my mate who's game is outstanding but he can't putt V's my game which is very ordinary but tend to putt quite well... he often moans about missing a 3 footer and how frustrating it is, yada yada yada... all I tell him is that rarely do you have to hit a provisional putt or take a penalty drop on the putting green! :-/

[Mububban]

rarely do you have to hit a provisional putt or take a penalty drop on the putting green! :-/


Great way of putting it :D


"Guys say you have to have a short game to win tournaments and it is not the case. Not at all," Rory McIlroy said last spring. His comments sparked a controversy, but Jack Nicklaus rose to his defense. "I agree with Rory," Nicklaus said. "I never practiced my short game because I felt like if I can hit 15 greens a round and hit a couple of par-fives in two and if I can make all my putts inside 10 feet, who cares where I chip it?"

I love Nicklaus' no-bullshit style of talking. No false modesty, no ego either, he just states facts as they applied to him and others.

[matty]

Interesting read but the key point is, "The long game sets up the short game,".
You can strike the ball nicely but if you can't sink the putts or get the up and down the score suffers. Just ask me.:smt022

[Lucasto23]

That was a very interesting read, and makes a lot of sense and tells me I am screwed either way :(

[Yossarian]

Me two.

[Double Bogie]

Interesting read but the key point is, "The long game sets up the short game,".
You can strike the ball nicely but if you can't sink the putts or get the up and down the score suffers. Just ask me.:smt022
So very true.
When I used to play with the club pro, he was always trying to get me to 2 putt. Just get the first putt within .5m of the hole then sink the second instead of a low percentage first putt that would run way passed meaning a long putt back which quickly turns it into a 3 or 4 putt blowout. Quickest way to shave 10 strokes off my card.

[virge666]

IMHO, The article is retarded and mis-quotes people to suit it's own purpose. It also misses the point about momentum.

Getting up and down is one of the vital components to making a living on tour ... if Rory "never practiced" his short game - why does he have his own short game complex in his backyard with his own green keeper.

How do you have the confidence to go for tucked pins if you cant get up and down ?
How do you feel on the next tee when you get up and down from a tight spot compared to bogey ?
How do you keep the momemtum going when you go bird, bird, bogey, par, bogey from 2 missed out of 5 greens ?


Luke Donald... #1 in the world, best short game on the planet.
Lee Westwood, shit shortgame, 100 in the world, Peter Cowan shortgame coach, top 5 in the world.
Phil, most birdies on tour as he trusts his short game to save him
Tiger - can't win a thing because his short game has gone to shit... he cannot save the bad holes anymore.

Here is a little tip for those who think short game is over-rated... Tiger's sand save's at the US Open was 2 from 11. His up and down from inside 30 feet was 22%. I am scared to think how much he would have won the tournament by if he could even remotely chip the ball.

Looking at my stats on last Saturday. 4 greens in reg, 55% fairways but still had 4 over for 35 points.

If you are a pro... they are usually only hitting 60% of the greens, the shortgame is the difference between making a cheque and taking the weekend off.

[sms316]

Quality long game = potential to go low. Quality short game = ability to save a crap round.

[Shadesy]

Wow startling Insight...Hit it close score better?

Ground breaking.

[Johnny Canuck]

Bottom line, you need both.

[Collis]

Short game helps big time.
Id like a better short game where i put the ball inside 5 feet than currently where i have to sink a 20ft putt or miss the green completely(which can happen).

[Pieface]

As a chopper...a wayward long game does take the fun out of a day. Rolling in a 15'er or chipping one inside a few feet to save triple bogey just doesn't get the excitement needle moving at all.

My feel is that for the bogeyish golfer say 15-22 handicap the long game makes or breaks your day. If you are getting greenside in regulation you will usually take a double at worst even if you mishit a chip or hit a shocking putt. Most players at this level have a basic but reasonably reliable short game and can readily make up for a few doubles with their handicap if they keep getting close in regulation for the duration of the round.

Lower markers are more consistent off the tee and the short game is the difference between them going low or having an average round.

The really high marker needs to work on their short game as they can too readily have multiple duffed chips and a 3+ putt. Some practice with basic techniques can save a stroke-stroke and a half per hole easily if you are hitting 120+ a round.

Generalisations obviously but I think it holds true for many. At the tour level...those guys play a different game entirely. Not sure how relevant comparisons between regular golfers and those guys are.

[Ashes]

As a chopper...a wayward long game does take the fun out of a day. Rolling in a 15'er or chipping one inside a few feet to save triple bogey just doesn't get the excitement needle moving at all.

My feel is that for the bogeyish golfer say 15-22 handicap the long game makes or breaks your day. If you are getting greenside in regulation you will usually take a double at worst even if you mishit a chip or hit a shocking putt. Most players at this level have a basic but reasonably reliable short game and can readily make up for a few doubles with their handicap if they keep getting close in regulation for the duration of the round.

Lower markers are more consistent off the tee and the short game is the difference between them going low or having an average round.

The really high marker needs to work on their short game as they can too readily have multiple duffed chips and a 3+ putt. Some practice with basic techniques can save a stroke-stroke and a half per hole easily if you are hitting 120+ a round.

Generalisations obviously but I think it holds true for many. At the tour level...those guys play a different game entirely. Not sure how relevant comparisons between regular golfers and those guys are.

As a fellow hacker, I agree with you PF.

If my short game is off, it might cost me a shot hear and there.

If my long game is off, I can blow shots at a rapid rate. The comment earlier about not having to take a provisional or drop on a green rings very true for me.

Both aspects of my game need work though and have to be addressed if I'm going to improve my scoring and consistency.

[virge666]

Pieface,

Cant tell you how wrong you are... sorry mate. it doesn't work that way.

This is why.

Think of the longest, hardest par 4 you have at your golf course. I reckon 3 x 5 iron shots would get you to the green, more likely 3 x 7 iron shots would get you to the green. Then you chip and get up and down if you miss the green say half the time you get there...

if you could do this... you would be playing off low teens maybe even high singles.

NOW - let me tell you how it really happens...

Driver in the shit, the next shot sort of gets you out of the shit... next one near the green, chip it up and two putts for an easy 6, maybe 7 if you cannot putt

or Driver up the guts, next shot misses green, duff or blade the next, give up and bump and run a 8 iron to something inside 20 feet and try not to 3 putt.

repeat the above 10 times a round.

=====================

The other really cool bit about short game is that it flows to the rest of your game... you figure out just how easy it is to hit a 56 degree wedge 60m with little to no effort and then you try the same shot with an 8 iron and all of a sudden you have a knock down shot.

Your learn just how important balance is.
You learn how to lag the club.
You learn how to use your hips through impact
You learn how to control spin.
You learn to control height.
You learn to move the ball 6 feet left and right in the air
You lose FEAR around the green.

All this infects the rest of your game - and then all of a sudden you find the doubles and triple bogeys start to occur less often.

You cannot learn any of the above on a golf range or hitting shots over 100m in length.

And short game is a lot more fun than full shots...

[Yossarian]

Virge you don't understand how easy it is to hit a 5 iron or a 7 iron in the shit as a high marker.

have you ever seen as play a par 3 and miss it by miles either side? Imagine doing that 3 times on a long 4 and still being 200 metres short.

[Pieface]

Virge, I agree with you on the level that distance is not the primary issue for most golfers. I agree I most likely hit driver too often.

Unfortunately for me...

I can honestly hook or slice a 6 or 7I almost as far into the boonge as my driver. The consistent or safe club is a myth for a lot of players with inconsistent swings. The higher lofted clubs 8I up often provide enough backspin to kinda cover up the rubbish and deliver a workable result.

I think we have sort of had this conversation once or twice before so I won't bang on too much. Consistent impact is elusive for those who don't get to play or practice much and chipping out sideways 180m from the tee has delivered better results for me than chipping out sideways at 130m from the tee. Being crap is quite the cross to bear :)

[Pieface]

LOL Yoss said it for me in a fraction of the words.

[CobraSS]

IMHO, The article is retarded and mis-quotes people to suit it's own purpose. It also misses the point about momentum.

Getting up and down is one of the vital components to making a living on tour ... if Rory "never practiced" his short game - why does he have his own short game complex in his backyard with his own green keeper.



Rory never said he didn't practise his short game, Nicklaus said. "I never practiced my short game because I felt like if I can hit 15 greens a round and hit a couple of par-fives in two and if I can make all my putts inside 10 feet, who cares where I chip it?" Rory just indicated your short didn't have to be regarded as great to still win tournaments.

[idgolfguy]

Tournament golf and club are two different arenas. Improve your long game consistency and you feel good. Short game consistency gives you confidence.

A high handicapper is seldom playing for birdies. Their focus is converting bogies to pars and saving bogies. Your handicap indexes demonstrate that.

I agree with Virge as short game and technique will flow through.

[idgolfguy]

Professionals have a different focus to the club golfer. Most of us don't hit the irons as far or as well and have to rely on the short game more.

A short game is more easily improved than long game. Basic technique will give you good results sooner.

[idgolfguy]

If you can't hit your driver and irons straight or consistently perhaps you are swinging them too fast for you to control reliably.As Virge mentioned, hit less club to play to your handicap/index. If you can't hit your 7 iron straight. Go with a 5 iron and reduce your backswing until you can hit straight.

[virge666]

Virge you don't understand how easy it is to hit a 5 iron or a 7 iron in the shit as a high marker.
have you ever seen as play a par 3 and miss it by miles either side? Imagine doing that 3 times on a long 4 and still being 200 metres short.


Virge, I agree with you on the level that distance is not the primary issue for most golfers. I agree I most likely hit driver too often.

I think we have sort of had this conversation once or twice before so I won't bang on too much. Consistent impact is elusive for those who don't get to play or practice much and chipping out sideways 180m from the tee has delivered better results for me than chipping out sideways at 130m from the tee. Being crap is quite the cross to bear :)

Boys,

We are at crossed purposes.

You guys suck at golf... I get that, you can both hook and duff and chip like a total muppet - i get that too. You don't have a consistant swing... I get that aswell. I play with 20 markers every week, I have seen first hand just how bloody retarded you guys can be. I played with a 32 marker last Saturday that had 21 points and he was a good driver of the golf ball...

The reason you guys suck is that your swing depends on timing. Some days your timing is on and you play well, but most of the time it doesn't go where you want it to. And because your swing depends on timing... anything other that a full shot is a total lottery, you can blade, duff, hit it 3 clubs longer or shorter... who the hell knows what it is going to do. (and you know this... which is another problem)

The reason most low markers stay low markers even after 6-12 months off is that our swings don't rely as much on timing as your swings do. Our swings have less moving parts, better balance and more lag. We use the club design better. In a word we have better technique than you guys.

No shit - huh ?

The short game gives you that technique, as I pointed out above. You learn to load the club and control the ball. You learn to hit the ball with balance and most importantly - you learn to groove a motion through the ball without having to time your release. Your right wrist stays bent through impact which takes the timing out of it.

Timing is what you guys rely on... and it is impossible to have a good short game if you have to rely of timing. Once you learn that movement through the ball with your short game - you just put a longer version of it on your 7 iron and I promise you that it will be a lot harder to hook the ball into the shit.

This is the true merit of the short game... the ability to get up and down is just a bonus.

[virge666]

Rory never said he didn't practise his short game, Nicklaus said. "I never practiced my short game because I felt like if I can hit 15 greens a round and hit a couple of par-fives in two and if I can make all my putts inside 10 feet, who cares where I chip it?" Rory just indicated your short didn't have to be regarded as great to still win tournaments.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1123331/index.htm

"When Jack Nicklaus finally saw that his short game needed work, he called in Phil Rodgers, who even as a fellow rookie in 1962 had more shots than Jack did"

nuff said . . .

[Shadesy]

Interesting Virge.

I had a short game lesson a few months back. My weight was to even and not through the left side enough. Since I had this lesson, I have learnt all sorts of shots, as the fear of a duffed chip is gone. I've dropped from 14 to 10 in 6 rounds, purely if I get near the green I'll make a bogey at worst.

The biggest improvement has been my weight (and transfer which relied a lot on timing) distribution over a full shot. I was coming off the ball during the swing, (there is a photo of me at the WA champs with my left knee almost behind the ball) and hoping i got everything right on the way down.

Since the short game lesson, My setup is different for the full shots and I am getting through the ball (not hanging back) which means I hit very little fat and the pull hook is gone (except for Sunday, but was easy to fix half way round.)

I can relate to what your saying...

[Ashes]

The reason you guys suck is that your swing depends on timing. Some days your timing is on and you play well, but most of the time it doesn't go where you want it to. And because your swing depends on timing... anything other that a full shot is a total lottery, you can blade, duff, hit it 3 clubs longer or shorter... who the hell knows what it is going to do. (and you know this... which is another problem)

The reason most low markers stay low markers even after 6-12 months off is that our swings don't rely as much on timing as your swings do. Our swings have less moving parts, better balance and more lag. We use the club design better. In a word we have better technique than you guys.

Hadn't really thought about it that way. Thanks Virge, it's good to have a clear understanding of why I'm rubbish.

[Pieface]

On the course if I am playing 5 for my chip onto the green I would say my long game has failed. How to fix that issue...

Practicing your short game to help your long game is a learning strategy I can see the merit in. When I get to practice I spend heaps more time chipping, pitching and putting than full shots. Things improve across my game but it may well be timing as Virge describes that always responds well, to a point, with practice.

I think maybe Virge is trying to fix the problem. I'm describing it.


If you can't hit your driver and irons straight or consistently perhaps you are swinging them too fast for you to control reliably.As Virge mentioned, hit less club to play to your handicap/index. If you can't hit your 7 iron straight. Go with a 5 iron and reduce your backswing until you can hit straight.

I think this is a big problem of mine id. Trying to hit the ball too hard especially with the longer clubs. Not sure I can shorten my backswing up much more judging on what everyone tells me I look like :lol:

[LarryLong]

Here's my theory. I'm one of Virge's 'total muppets' and I agree on the point about timing and technique. I regularly hit the best shot of the day and the worst shot of the day in the group that I play. Inconsistency kills me, and I'll agree with Pieface that the number on the club has no bearing on the degree that you can miss by if you're a chopper.

A few years ago I had a pretty good long game and a diabolical short game. 2 chips and 3 putts was in no way out of the ordinary for me. I hovered around 100 and had to shoot the lights out with the irons to have a good day. I found myself with some time and spent a while just hitting quarter swings with the short clubs. I improved straight away. Taking the duffed and bladed chips out of the equation helped, but Virge is right in that it also improved my consistency in terms of impact on full swings.

However, I think my next (assuming there is one) jump will come from more control on the long ball. I don't hit enough greens, and every now and then I unleash a truly horrible swing that sends the ball into another postcode. A bad chip that doesn't get you up and down costs you one shot - a wayward drive costs you two, maybe more. Likewise for a brain fade 8 iron from the middle of the fairway. My problem is balance and weight transfer - some woeful habits there. Short game practice didn't cure this though - I think I'll be a 20 handicapper for life unless I can improve that.

So, my theory is that if you're a real chopper, you need to get to the point where you can reliably make a chip and two putts from inside 50m. This will also improve your ball striking and probably get you to somewhere around 18. Once you get that down pat, you need to learn to keep the ball in play and hit more greens, which might get you to 10. If you get that down pat, then you have to try to become a short game wizard so you can really score.

Unless you're an old bloke, in which case you just concentrate on getting up and down from everywhere so that all the young blokes hate you.

[Pieface]

Interesting Virge.

I had a short game lesson a few months back. My weight was to even and not through the left side enough. Since I had this lesson, I have learnt all sorts of shots, as the fear of a duffed chip is gone. I've dropped from 14 to 10 in 6 rounds, purely if I get near the green I'll make a bogey at worst.

The biggest improvement has been my weight (and transfer which relied a lot on timing) distribution over a full shot. I was coming off the ball during the swing, (there is a photo of me at the WA champs with my left knee almost behind the ball) and hoping i got everything right on the way down.

Since the short game lesson, My setup is different for the full shots and I am getting through the ball (not hanging back) which means I hit very little fat and the pull hook is gone (except for Sunday, but was easy to fix half way round.)

I can relate to what your saying...

I sway around like a piece of wet spaghetti. I'm sure this gives me timing issues. I really try to focus on rotating not swaying and it seems to help a lot but ingraining it is taking some time and my lazy ass body likes to do what it finds comfortable as soon as my concentration wavers. Typical 9 holes for me is 2-3 pars, 2-3 singles and the balance in ugly ugly numbers to come in around 50. Frustrating way to play golf.

[virge666]

I think this is a big problem of mine id. Trying to hit the ball too hard especially with the longer clubs. Not sure I can shorten my backswing up much more judging on what everyone tells me I look like :lol:

There is no such thing as trying to hit it too hard.
There is no such thing as too long a back swing.
You should never try and shorten your backswing.

All things told to me by various coaches over the years. Made no sense to me without context.

So think of it this way - you're a chopper with a swing that relies on timing... and these three things all do absolutley nothing other than screw up your timing.

You're not swinging too hard - you are trying to hit the club from the wrong position so you lose balance, so some idiot says swing slower so you dont lose balance.
Your backswing is not too long - you are not storing any power on your backswing so you have to go further to feel like you have any power.
Your backswing is not too long - Daly and Mickleson seem to do OK or see #2

[Dotty]

...

So, my theory is that if you're a real chopper, you need to get to the point where you can reliably make a chip and two putts from inside 50m. This will also improve your ball striking and probably get you to somewhere around 18. Once you get that down pat, you need to learn to keep the ball in play and hit more greens, which might get you to 10. If you get that down pat, then you have to try to become a short game wizard so you can really score.

Unless you're an old bloke, in which case you just concentrate on getting up and down from everywhere so that all the young blokes hate you.
Thanks Larry (I think). Theory proved.

Playing off 8-10, I rarely get a par 4 in reg., but I do have more pars than doubles. (And the young blokes hate me.)

[Jarro]

Interesting thoughts Virge ....

... thanks.

[matty]

Looking at my stats on last Saturday. 4 greens in reg, 55% fairways but still had 4 over for 35 points.

You make me sick Virge :smt078

On Monday I had an exceptional round. I had 14 GIR, 12/14 FIR, but 35 putts (no 3 putts) for 4 over. If I had your short game I would've killed it.

But I'm not consistent, the Saturday comp before was about 15 over. I was crap all around. It's probably the timing thing you talk about.

[Pieface]

There is no such thing as trying to hit it too hard.
There is no such thing as too long a back swing.
You should never try and shorten your backswing.

All things told to me by various coaches over the years. Made no sense to me without context.

So think of it this way - you're a chopper with a swing that relies on timing... and these three things all do absolutley nothing other than screw up your timing.

You're not swinging too hard - you are trying to hit the club from the wrong position so you lose balance, so some idiot says swing slower so you dont lose balance.
Your backswing is not too long - you are not storing any power on your backswing so you have to go further to feel like you have any power.
Your backswing is not too long - Daly and Mickleson seem to do OK or see #2

Virge can you elaborate on this point? I feel like the longer clubs I go after it too early...like right at the top and I'm out of shape and power by the time I get to impact. Is this what you mean by hitting from the wrong position or is it something else?

ta.

[Yossarian]

Virge I agree with all of your points except as stated telling a high marker that his scores will come down playing with a 5 iron they won't until they do the work that is required and then they might as well hit driver anyway.

[sms316]

Looking at my stats on last Saturday. 4 greens in reg, 55% fairways but still had 4 over for 35 points. off. Stats aren't everything, but are you proud of this stat or left wondering what might have been?

[CobraSS]

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1123331/index.htm

"When Jack Nicklaus finally saw that his short game needed work, he called in Phil Rodgers, who even as a fellow rookie in 1962 had more shots than Jack did"

nuff said . . .

Whats that got to do with whom said what. It was Nicklaus's quote, not Rory's, I don't give a PHUCK what he did.

[dave1]

Bottom line, you need both.

I agree. 7 years ago my long game was crap - blocks and cuts

Shortgame was ok to good.

Now driving is great but short is ok (hasn't got better)

But Im a better player now Ive gained some length and accuracy off the tee.

A bad drive will usually cost 2 a missed putt is 1 ..

But a great putt or chip can save 1 or 2


Bad chip you can still sink a putt to save par.

But on the flipside as one old golfer said "every shot is worth 1"

Confused..I AM :-)

[rubin]

I agree. 7 years ago my long game was crap - blocks and cuts

Shortgame was ok to good.

Now driving is great but short is ok (hasn't got better)

But Im a better player now Ive gained some length and accuracy off the tee.

A bad drive will usually cost 2 a missed putt is 1 ..

But a great putt or chip can save 1 or 2

Bad chip you can still sink a putt to save par.

But on the flipside as one old golfer said "every shot is worth 1"

Confused..I AM :-)

Dave - if u confuse yourself, how the **** are we supposed to follow what ur saying.

[idgolfguy]

There is no such thing as trying to hit it too hard. There is no such thing as too long a back swing.You should never try and shorten your backswing.All things told to me by various coaches over the years. Made no sense to me without context.So think of it this way - you're a chopper with a swing that relies on timing... and these three things all do absolutley nothing other than screw up your timing.You're not swinging too hard - you are trying to hit the club from the wrong position so you lose balance, so some idiot says swing slower so you dont lose balance.Your backswing is not too long - you are not storing any power on your backswing so you have to go further to feel like you have any power.Your backswing is not too long - Daly and Mickleson seem to do OK or see #2Poor choice of words when I said slow down your swing. In my case, my downswings is never slowed down. My error occurs when my backswing is too quick and out of sync/rhythm.My 58 Dec wedge is the most reliable club to 78m. It still amazes me how far it gets with relatively little effort.I'm still a chopper due to inconsistency but should be in singles in the next few weeks.I spent a fair bit of time just using sand wedge before rounds to get the timing and rhythm happening.It is still aways to go to apply the approach across all clubs. It has carried through to my 8 and 9 irons consistently. Still waiting for the swing to carry to other irons.

[virge666]

Virge I agree with all of your points except as stated telling a high marker that his scores will come down playing with a 5 iron they won't until they do the work that is required and then they might as well hit driver anyway.

Wasn't the point.

The issue is you dont need distance as a chopper. You can swing driver all you like - and the good bit is that you dont have to swing off balance to get your 5/2. Put that 3/4 short game swing on your driver - stay in balance and the ball will still go 200m easily. Then build it up keeping your balance and work on that nice follow through over your left shoulder.


Virge can you elaborate on this point? I feel like the longer clubs I go after it too early...like right at the top and I'm out of shape and power by the time I get to impact. Is this what you mean by hitting from the wrong position or is it something else?


Have you ever seen a young girl or a young kid try and throw a tennis ball ?

They wind up everything - feet, knees, wrists, fingers, shoulders, everything. The look all contorted and when they eventally unwind all that mess - the ball goes off in a stupid direction with bugger all power. That is where you are at. You are doing what feels powerful, but in essence is just really slow and laborious.

Now watch a good cricket player throw a ball from half way to the boundary to the keeper. The action is short, economical, accurate and powerful. NOW - here is the kicker... When the cricketer is further back towards the boundary - the mechanics of his throw doesn't change... it is just a bit longer. He still doesn't throw off balance. He just throws it a bit further.

There is a different mindset at work here - he is not throwing as hard as he can - HE IS THROWING TO A TARGET. You guys don't have this... you see a fairway and your mindset is bash this mother-****er as hard as you can.

But i digress... (i'll come back to this later)

If you are in crap position at the top - both bodywise and "coiled" wise, you cant go hard at the ball with the club. You have to shift your hips, slide a bit, move behind the ball or whatever, until you can finally go hard at the ball. BUT, by that time, you have lost all the lag on the downswing, your off balance, so all you have is arm speed, which is weak as piss.

Marty Ayers did a great thing on this is his video about fidning THAT position at the top, THAT position where you dont have to slide or twist or whatever to attack the ball with the club. You have to find that, and you do that by working on your pitching because the mindset changes to HITTING A TARGET and not bashing the living shit out of the ball.

Grabbing a 7 or 8 iron and hitting alternating shots 70 and 100m away is great way to learn balance. Within half an hour- you will find it hard to not hit the ball past 100m with some pissy little half swing. Then say every third shot - hit a full shot, not by swinging harder, just by swinging a little longer and a little faster, KEEPING THE BALANCE.

But you won't do this . . . you might hit a few shots maybe 3 minutes worth till you get your swing timed well, then start hitting full shots and 5 mins later you will be back to timing your golf swing under the delusion that "That was a really good drill", whilst missing the point entirely.

In conclusion, we are not better golfers than you because we hit it further or straighter or sink more putts or chip better. We have a totally different way of playing the game than you guys do. And as you get better, you learn this.

The annoying thing is that I play off 3, and the boys I speak to who can really play, say exactly the same thing to me about my game. This is why when you play good golf, it is so easy, and when you play bad golf, it is so friggin difficult.

[Johnny Canuck]

Yoss and Pieface definitely do not try and hit it too hard.

Pieface has less than a 3/4 takeaway.

[virge666]

Yoss and Pieface definitely do not try and hit it too hard.

Pieface has less than a 3/4 takeaway.

As i said it is not about hitting too hard or too soft, it is about where we are at the top.

Check out Courty's swing... it is short, deliberate and slowish. But once he starts to come down - he has to make all manner of adjustments to get to the club the ball.

if you want to hit the ball hard - you need to be in a position at the top where you can hit at the ball hard.

[Pieface]

Yoss and Pieface definitely do not try and hit it too hard.

Pieface has less than a 3/4 takeaway.

Crap mechanics/technique and crap flexibilty. I rule :D

[Johnny Canuck]

Virge, Pieface has no top. Only a "just short of middle".

[Ashes]

I'm sold Virge. Have only had a few lessons (time and money mainly goes to playing rather than lessons) but my coach explained it in a similar way in terms of throwing a cricket ball. I think I've improved but still a fair way to go. I had to do a lot of slow motion swings, and even horizontal baseball type swings, to get the coiling bit happening.

I'm sold - will hit the range tonight with just a 7 iron and see how that goes.

Do you think a good iron swing should naturally translate into a good driver swing? When I'm hitting my irons well, my driving struggles, and vice versa.

[Johnny Canuck]

Yes.

[Jarro]

Thanks Virge, you've got me motivated again to try out the RSS.

I'm another who has terrible balance throughout the swing....and one who tries to blast the cover off the ball !!

I've tried the Edwin method before, and found i had much better balance throughout the motion .... probably due to the fact that i remained fairly well static over the ball instead of moving off of it.

Off to the range to try hitting some punch 9 irons (when the rain pisses off) 8)

[Captain Nemo]

I dont know where i stand on this.
BUT
I played with meh, and my Club Pro's son (he's 15 and off 2)
I know that if i had 1/2 his short game id be playing off 5-6 (i shot 9 over off the stick).

[Johnny Canuck]

The slower technique referenced by Virge is exactly what one of the pros at my club told me to do when adopting a swing change he had recommended.

[virge666]

Crap mechanics/technique and crap flexibilty. I rule :D

Take a number...


Virge, Pieface has no top. Only a "just short of middle".

BWahhahah



I'm sold - will hit the range tonight with just a 7 iron and see how that goes.

Do you think a good iron swing should naturally translate into a good driver swing? When I'm hitting my irons well, my driving struggles, and vice versa.

The hard bit is to push pas the boredom. Try hitting little cuts and fades, or high and low shots. try and get that backswing shorter and shorter and shorter but still have the distance control.

And a massive YES


Thanks Virge, you've got me motivated again to try out the RSS.


Are you a memeber of the site ?

[Pieface]

Take a number...


I usually do. Typically looks like a snowman or a moose :lol:

[Johnny Canuck]

I usually do. Typically looks like a snowman or a moose :lol: Generally on par 3s, from our last match.

[Jarro]

Are you a memeber of the site ?

No mate i'm not.

[virge666]

No mate i'm not.

You need to be...

300 vids on there for about $50

[virge666]

Stats aren't everything, but are you proud of this stat or left wondering what might have been?

It means even though I am struggling to get my old Edwin swing back . . . my short game stopped me from shooting 80.

I liked you analogy BTW, long game to go low... shortgame to keep it low.

[idgolfguy]

I'm sold Virge. Have only had a few lessons (time and money mainly goes to playing rather than lessons) but my coach explained it in a similar way in terms of throwing a cricket ball. I think I've improved but still a fair way to go. I had to do a lot of slow motion swings, and even horizontal baseball type swings, to get the coiling bit happening.I'm sold - will hit the range tonight with just a 7 iron and see how that goes.Do you think a good iron swing should naturally translate into a good driver swing? When I'm hitting my irons well, my driving struggles, and vice versa.Use your sand or gap. After about 10mins, you won't be trying to hit your 7iron 150m. And it helps with execution standing closer to the ball. To overcome the effect of bounce, you have to keep your weight forward.

Btw I play the pitches and some chips, same as my driver, inline with left heel.

Used the SW for my pregame warmup and build it from 10m to 70m. It sets me up for my round as I am usually a few shots up on the front 9 before I get into the over hitting and experimentation in the middle of round.Near the end I start to get back on track and play to handicap or press to hard and blow out.

[virge666]

Used the SW for my pregame warmup and build it from 10m to 70m. It sets me up for my round as I am usually a few shots up on the front 9 before I get into the over hitting and experimentation in the middle of round.Near the end I start to get back on track and play to handicap or press to hard and blow out.

Great idea !!

[Ashes]

Virge, just so you know your advice isn't falling on deaf ears, had a hit with the 52.5 wedge at the range tonight. I'd say I hit around 60% that I was happy with, which for me is basically:

Shoulder turn initiating club takeaway
Slight forward weight shift and hips leading downswing
Arms fairly relaxed and passive

The good ones were slight fades dropping within maybe 3m of the 75m target. Misses were either thin, or straight pull about 10-15m to the left. I think the pull comes from falling back into actively swinging the arms, which was my former approach.

I can see the benefit in the suggestions. I think I'm a better chance of getting rid of old habits this way than hitting 4 or 5 different clubs on the range.

[Courty]

Check out Courty's swing... it is short, deliberate and slowish. But once he starts to come down - he has to make all manner of adjustments to get to the club the ball.

Damn straight... and I'm still trying to work out where that correct position at the top is. :?

[dave1]

Dave - if u confuse yourself, how the **** are we supposed to follow what ur saying. Ok short game is bloody important....But some will argue its not...Both could be right...Also not everything is meant to make sense! (Quote from somewhere)

[rubin]

Ok short game is bloody important....But some will argue its not...Both could be right...Also not everything is meant to make sense! (Quote from somewhere)

Yes Dave, but the difference is that not much - if any- of what u post makes sense.

[Veefore]

Virge, Pieface has no top. Only a "just short of middle".

Is it shorter than Holty?

He's the only person I know who could make a full swing under a table. If you stood behind him your balls might be at risk but your chin would be safe.

[markTHEblake]

No one swings shorter than GC. His backswing is barely a waggle.

[Bruce]

Poidda used to be pretty short but I think his club head occasionally got higher than his actual head.

[Pearler]

You need to be...

300 vids on there for about $50

What's the site?

[virge666]

garyedwin.com

[Jarro]

It's a bit more than $50 to join up now too Virge.

[Puji]

do that by working on your pitching because the mindset changes to HITTING A TARGET and not bashing the living shit out of the ball.


This really resonated with me. Thanks Virge.

Whilst I don't bash balls at the range, and I actually try to work on things - I basically always try to do the work on my full swing. My swing is pretty loose, inconsistent and un-repeatable so it is very ahrd to know whether I am doing what my coach wants me to do.

My coach has told me to do this on little shots - which I do when I am at home chipping, but it isnt until I've heard this that it has really meant something to me.

Cheers Virge.

[Pieface]

I chipped a few balls before teeing off yesterday really trying to feel accelerating through the stroke. Took half a dozen onto the range with my SW and hit 4 of them as half shots focussing on starting my takeaway with a shoulder turn and feeling the same acceleration through the ball and hit the last two as full swings. Was sending them rightish but good solid contact. Tried to take that feeling out onto the course and focus on my shoulder turn and taking an extra club on all my shots.

Had my best ball striking day in ages. Only one mishit shot (fat) off some mulch if I discount the couple of tee shot brainfarts. Of course by mishit I mean a flub. I did push them right most of the day but it was consistent and I could play to it.

[idgolfguy]

Great start to a new swing approach.

[sambo]

Boys,

We are at crossed purposes.

You guys suck at golf... I get that, you can both hook and duff and chip like a total muppet - i get that too. You don't have a consistant swing... I get that aswell. I play with 20 markers every week, I have seen first hand just how bloody retarded you guys can be. I played with a 32 marker last Saturday that had 21 points and he was a good driver of the golf ball...

The reason you guys suck is that your swing depends on timing. Some days your timing is on and you play well, but most of the time it doesn't go where you want it to. And because your swing depends on timing... anything other that a full shot is a total lottery, you can blade, duff, hit it 3 clubs longer or shorter... who the hell knows what it is going to do. (and you know this... which is another problem)

The reason most low markers stay low markers even after 6-12 months off is that our swings don't rely as much on timing as your swings do. Our swings have less moving parts, better balance and more lag. We use the club design better. In a word we have better technique than you guys.

No shit - huh ?

The short game gives you that technique, as I pointed out above. You learn to load the club and control the ball. You learn to hit the ball with balance and most importantly - you learn to groove a motion through the ball without having to time your release. Your right wrist stays bent through impact which takes the timing out of it.

Timing is what you guys rely on... and it is impossible to have a good short game if you have to rely of timing. Once you learn that movement through the ball with your short game - you just put a longer version of it on your 7 iron and I promise you that it will be a lot harder to hook the ball into the shit.

This is the true merit of the short game... the ability to get up and down is just a bonus.
to put it bluntly lol