speeding fine, whats your opinion?

[IamViva]

While driving down Alice Street(Botanical Gardens) on my way home from the CBD a Brisbane City Bus driver pulled out from the bus stop just past Albert Street cutting across 2 lanes and almost pinned me against parked vehicles on the right hand side of the road, I accelerated to avoid collision with the bus (i was just behind its front wheel so quicker to get infront then brake and come out behind the bus) i looked back in the mirror having a slightly heated moment when i saw a flash no more then 100m George Street, i had been done speeding... i am unsure of speed but im thinking around the 50-55kph (40kph speed limit for people who are unaware).

so i have 2 questions

1. is it currently double or triple demerit points in QLD atm?
2. would this be worth contesting at court?

[TheTrueReview]

It depends how proximate the incident was to the speed camera. It would be worth considering a well constructed solicitor's letter if you receive a ticket in the mail. Make sure you make some notes of what happened & exactly where, so you can refer to them when your memory becomes grainy.

[ddasey]

QLD don't do the double demerit point thing *


Edit - I should have been clearer, not on public holidays etc. Certain offences can lead to double points if a second offence occurs within 12 months of the 1st.

[peter_rs]

http://www.tmr.qld.gov.au/Safety/Driver-guide/Speeding/Fines-and-demerit-points.aspx

[Dotty]

Was the bus driver playing Words with Friends at the time?

:)

[dc68]

Should have just let him go and be patient and you wouldn't have a problem.

And for the record I was nowhere near Alice St today.

[IamViva]

Should have just let him go and be patient and you wouldn't have a problem.

And for the record I was nowhere near Alice St today.

if it was the safest option i would have

[dc68]

If you had to increase your speed by that much to get past him you could easily have stopped. Unless you were doing over 40 in the 1st place and are just looking for an excuse.

[Moe Norman]

He shouldn't have cut off traffic and crossed 2 lanes with no regard for other motorists

[dc68]

Traffic should wise up and realise if a bus is indicating it's coming over. And I know where this is and you have to get over 3 lanes of traffic after leaving a stop in about 100 m to turn right into William St. If you don't like it I don't care.

[IamViva]

If you had to increase your speed by that much to get past him you could easily have stopped. Unless you were doing over 40 in the 1st place and are just looking for an excuse.

seen as he was pulling out from a stationary position all that was required was 10-20kph to pass the bus as i was probably 3/4 of the way passed it if i had of hit the breaks i have no dont i would have been sideswiped. i have never been in an accident and have been booked once in the past with no other traffic violations, i am not a speeder and i do not get road rage so take it which ever way you wish... i trust my judgement.

thanks for your concern though and thanks for you helpful advice...

[IamViva]

Traffic should wise up and realise if a bus is indicating it's coming over. And I know where this is and you have to get over 3 lanes of traffic after leaving a stop in about 100 m to turn right into William St. If you don't like it I don't care.

so if you're going to merge back into moving traffic from a stationary position you indicate and merge in the same motion because you've indicated? id give way to on coming vehicles myself

[Jarro]

so if you're going to merge back into moving traffic from a stationary position you indicate and merge in the same motion because you've indicated? id give way to on coming vehicles myself

... not if you're a bus driver :roll:

[Moe Norman]

Bus driver has right of way when exiting bus stop, which is fine. They don't have right of way when changing lanes though, but always drive as though they do, which is not fine.

****ing tools

[Hux]

Imagine what its like to drive for 8+ hrs a day surrounded by d'heads (and they are just the other bus drivers). Add in that its holiday time and every mum and dad with all the requisite skills of driving gained by taking the kids to sporting events on the weekend and you might have some idea of just how calm a bus driver must be to actually not pull out the M16 and cut loose.

Driving a CNG belching, underpowered lumbering POS for a living - I take my hat off to DC for being able to survive it cheerfully - they are not exactly an easy beast to drive in heavy traffic.

On Topic:
Pay the ticket you were speeding. You know you were speeding. You made the wrong decision of brake or accelerate. Bad things happen to good people. Blame Anna and Qld Transport.

[damoocow]

Bus driver has right of way when exiting bus stop, which is fine. They don't have right of way when changing lanes though, but always drive as though they do, which is not fine.

****ing tools

what exactly are the road rules as they apply to buses when pulling out?

[mike]

You must give way to them. Providing they indicate first.

[damoocow]

Do have have to indicate for a reasonable time?

[mike]

I would imagine so.

[Zeusgolf]

Bus driver has right of way when exiting bus stop, which is fine. They don't have right of way when changing lanes though, but always drive as though they do, which is not fine.

****ing tools

:smt038

[TheTrueReview]

so if you're going to merge back into moving traffic from a stationary position you indicate and merge in the same motion because you've indicated? ...

Nope, not the case. The bus can't cause a dangerous situation by forcing a right of way. Neither can it give insufficient indication of its intention. It's indication of an intention to pull out. Not indication that it is pulling out.

IMO being required to get over 3 lanes of traffic after leaving a stop in about 100 m to turn right into William St is plain lunacy & prone to causing many dangerous incidents. I feel for the bus drivers who are required to do it. The problem lies in those who created the route. Way to go City Hall.

[damoocow]

TTR - how much of an 'intention' do they require to give? - is there any specific guideline?

[kev]

TTR - how much of an 'intention' do they require to give? - is there any specific guideline?

When I got my licence I believe the rule was to indicate for 100m before changing lanes. **** knows what it is now and if it's different from state to state.

[Rooster]

Traffic should wise up and realise if a bus is indicating it's coming over. And I know where this is and you have to get over 3 lanes of traffic after leaving a stop in about 100 m to turn right into William St. If you don't like it I don't care. That sums up bus drivers attitudes. No regard for anybody else.

[Croydo]

I'm sure it isn't easy being a bus driver, there is no way i would want to deal with what they do, but something needs to done.

Down our way, I saw bus pull out when a guy on a motorbike was right beside them, actually hit the bike, it sent the rider skitling across the road. The bus driver just kept going. That stretch of road is 70kph, thankfully a few other motorists stopped to check on the bike rider. It wasn't far from Mona Vale Hospital and the rider got taken off to hospital in an ambulance. I'm sure incidences like this aren't that isolated.

[TheTrueReview]

When I got my licence I believe the rule was to indicate for 100m before changing lanes. **** knows what it is now and if it's different from state to state.

Kev,

This is the situation in Qld.

Firstly, there is a requirement to give way to buses in certain circumstances.

Transport Operations (Road Use Management--Road Rules) Regulation 1999
Regulation 77 Giving way to buses
(1) A driver driving on a length of road in a built-up area where the speed limit applying to the driver is not more than 70km/h, in the left lane or left line of traffic, or in a bicycle lane on the far left side of the road, must give way to a bus in front of the driver if--


(a) the bus has stopped, or is moving slowly, at the far left side of the road or in a bus-stop bay; and
(b) the bus displays a give way to buses sign and the right direction indicator lights of the bus are operating; and
(c) the bus is about to enter or proceed in the lane or line of traffic in which the driver is driving.
Maximum penalty--20 penalty units.


Definition of "give way", for a driver or pedestrian, means--


(a) if the driver or pedestrian is stopped--remain stationary until it is safe to proceed; or
(b) in any other case--slow down and, if necessary, stop to avoid a collision.

So, if all of the above elements are satisfied, the motorist must give way to the bus. But, and this is a big but. If a motorist fails to or demonstrates that it will not give way to the bus, the bus driver cannot force the right of way thereby driving dangerously. Nothing in the regulation permits driving dangerously because a motorist has a right of way. You can see below that the punishment for dangerous driving is a tad more than failing to give way to a bus.


Criminal Code
328A Dangerous operation of a vehicle
(1) A person who operates, or in any way interferes with the operation of, a vehicle dangerously in any place commits a misdemeanour.


Maximum penalty-200 penalty units or 3 years imprisonment.

As a final word, common sense should rule with everything. There's no sense being in the right but having a crumpled vehicle as a result. Unfortunately though, heated emotions usually have a vaporising effect on common sense.

[Daves]

I alway try to give buses lots of room and give way all the time; 1) they must be a bastard to drive around corners 2) they overhang (their wheels) more than you think 3) they are much bigger than my car and 4) I don't trust the f***** drivers!:wink:

[sms316]

Why do buses get special treatment anyway?

[AndyP]

Why do buses get special treatment anyway?Public transport gets priority because it is moving more people.

[sms316]

Public transport gets priority because it is moving more people.
Do the buses arrive on time because of this?

[AndyP]

Of course.

[Dotty]

I had a similar incident on a suburban secondary road, where a bus had it's left indicator on as I passed the rear lights. But as I was alongside, he started pulling out and indicating right in a single action. I resist swerving (unless absolutely necessary) and was able to brake sharply to avoid a collision.

From now on, I have right indicator on as I pass buses that are stopped in bus stops, with their left indicator on. Probably just a co-incidence, but never had a problem since.


(Or it could have just been 'Cranky Vic' getting me back for the school run twenty-plus years ago.)

[goughy]

Why do buses get special treatment anyway?

For the same reason as trucks. Cause they are much bigger than me and I'm the one more likely to end up dead.

[i Golf]

Whenever I see a bus stopped on the left side of the road, and I usually am looking 2-300 down the road, I'll just change into the right lane, same on the freeway if I am in the left lane and a on ramp is coming up I'll move into the right lane to allow any traffic that might be on the on ramp an easy merge onto the highway.

Too many ppl have no idea how to drive, and why is it that when you get your Ps you stick to every speed limit as if your drivers licence depended on it, but now most ppl don't seem to know what a speed sign looks like or what it actually means??

Your situation doesn't sound like intentional speeding, I'd probably send a letter with the fine to the local court with a copy of your driving history and an explanation of the event, chances are the picture you get will have the bus in it aswell.

i think you'd get it waived especially if you have a good long term driving record.

[Outcast]

For the same reason as trucks. Cause they are much bigger than me and I'm the one more likely to end up dead.

Couldn't agree more Goughy... Tis often referred to as the law of gross tonnage....

I don't fancy an epitah of " he was in the right " - have any of you folk heard of 'defensive driving' it really doesn't add more than a minute or two to your travelling time but, sure as hell makes sure you get there in one piece

[Hooker]

Just my 2 cents worth here as a bus driver . We have an active OH&S committee at the company I work for and if we had a situation were a bus driver reported having to pull out and cross 3 lanes of traffic to turn right within 100 meters in a busy city situation the OH&S committee would investigate the maneuver . If it found it to be dangerous it would recommend to the company that this maneuver would have to be changed.

[Moe Norman]

Do have have to indicate for a reasonable time? You see a bus indicating at a bus stop, it's as good as a give way sign.You see them indicating when already in traffic and driving, it's like any other vehicle on the road.

[Hooker]

That's right , so why don't cars give way to buses indicating coming out of a bus stop.

[dc68]

You see a bus indicating at a bus stop, it's as good as a give way sign.


And I bet YOU don't.

[AndyP]

You don't need to give way, as the bus will come out in the process of turning the indicator on.

[3oneday]

I don't trust the f***** drivers!:wink:this, particularly in Sydney.

[dc68]

You don't need to give way, as the bus will come out in the process of turning the indicator on.


That is not true, I know some idiots do it,but if it happened every time imagine the carnage on the road.

[ozdevil]

Traffic should wise up and realise if a bus is indicating it's coming over. And I know where this is and you have to get over 3 lanes of traffic after leaving a stop in about 100 m to turn right into William St. If you don't like it I don't care.

then something really needs to be done to have the bus stop moved to a safer location giving the bus more time to merge into the 3 lanes...

if this bus stop is only 100 metres from a 3 lane carraige way and the bus has to be in the 3rd lane then its not only dangerous to the bus driver and his passengers but is dangerous for other motorist..


if this cant be moved to a safer location then maybe the bus stop has to be removed from its current position for the safety of all motorists.


this doesnt excuse the driver from speeding however though it could have caused a major accident and the rule to give way to buses has to be relooked at as well as bus stop relocations specially when a bus needs to cross over multiple lanes in one go just to head down the next street... 100metres is not time enough for a bus to do this safely ..

yes we have to understand buses are on a time shedule but however this shouldnt give buses the right to immediately pull out from the side of the kerb across multiple lanes even in a single thouroghfare this it can be unsafe...

all parked traffic trying to merge into traffic have to giveway to the oncoming traffic so why buses can just pull out just to keep to a timetable...

sorry but i dont care if this upsets the bus drivers of this world...

sometimes bus stops are in the most stupidest places and its hard on other motorists as well as the bus drivers

this guy could have saved himself the speeding ticket if this bus stop was in another location that was safe and didnt have to increase his speed to avoid collision

even slowing down from the speeding motorist could have cause an accident by suddenly applying the brakes to avoid the bus..

[Shadesy]

I changed lanes the other day when I saw a bus wanting to pull out from a bus stop!

Driver gave me a thumbs up out the window, which was unnecessary but appreciated!

It's the feel good story of 2011! Or is that 2012 as it happened last year?

[990B Luva]

Whenever I see a bus stopped on the left side of the road, and I usually am looking 2-300 down the road, I'll just change into the right lane, same on the freeway if I am in the left lane and a on ramp is coming up I'll move into the right lane to allow any traffic that might be on the on ramp an easy merge onto the highway.

Too many ppl have no idea how to drive, and why is it that when you get your Ps you stick to every speed limit as if your drivers licence depended on it, but now most ppl don't seem to know what a speed sign looks like or what it actually means??

Your situation doesn't sound like intentional speeding, I'd probably send a letter with the fine to the local court with a copy of your driving history and an explanation of the event, chances are the picture you get will have the bus in it aswell.

i think you'd get it waived especially if you have a good long term driving record.

Intentional speeding or not, speeding is speeding. Nothing will get the fine waived. How do I know? Years of experience copping the fines has wisened me up to the way in which everything works.

[TheTrueReview]

Intentional speeding or not, speeding is speeding. Nothing will get the fine waived. How do I know? Years of experience copping the fines has wisened me up to the way in which everything works. So that's it? Based on your traffic history we should all blindly nod the nut? No thanks.

[990B Luva]

Queensland do not waive traffic infringements, a little research will show this. We have the largest tolerance in the country for speeding infringements before you get fined. 55km/h in a 40 zone is a 3 point, $220 infringement, there is no hope of getting that waived anywhere in the country. The Queensland system allows fair error on behalf of the driver and the speedometer. 35% over the limit is NOT fair error, but a lack of concentration or judgement by the driver. You can try and fight the infringement in court if you wish, but having been there myself, unless you are willing to spend big money on lawyers and experts, along with finding a miracle, you will lose and be awarded court costs along with the original fine, and possibly another for wasting the magistrates time.

[IamViva]

i am still awaiting the infringement notice, the effort in pursuing this will come down to the penalty handed down... still not happy with the whole situation

[TheTrueReview]

.... You can try and fight the infringement in court if you wish, but having been there myself, unless you are willing to spend big money on lawyers and experts, along with finding a miracle, you will lose and be awarded court costs along with the original fine, and possibly another for wasting the magistrates time.

So again ... based on your traffic history, all other motorists should accept without question or scrutiny, any infringement notice received in the mail? Again, no thanks.

[990B Luva]

I have attempted to fight a speeding ticket issued by a mobile camera. Hence why I said with Lawyers, experts and miracles. I've spent close to $15k in legal fee's attempting to get off incorrectly issued tickets, and failed. Basically unless you have PHYSICAL proof there is no chance of getting off. If you feel the need, there are specialist traffic lawyers you can see.

[TheTrueReview]

I have attempted to fight a speeding ticket issued by a mobile camera. Hence why I said with Lawyers, experts and miracles. I've spent close to $15k in legal fee's attempting to get off incorrectly issued tickets, and failed. Basically unless you have PHYSICAL proof there is no chance of getting off. If you feel the need, there are specialist traffic lawyers you can see.

There's a concept called "litigation uncertainty"; which means basically that there's no such thing as an un-winable or an un-losable case. ... and there is no magic threshold in legal fees for being successful in defending a charge; whether it's 15k or 50k in legal fees it matters not to the verdict.

What were the facts in your matter?

The particular road in question?
The speed alleged?
What speed did you maintain you were doing?
What was your argument? eg. (a) I wasn't speeding; or (b) I had a lawful excuse, justification or defence for speeding.
What was your legal advice?
Did you give evidence at a Magistrate's Court hearing?
Did the Magistrate prefer the evidence of the police over your evidence? If so, why?
The Magistrate would have read out the reasons his decision. What was it?

[markTHEblake]

I have attempted to fight a speeding ticket issued by a mobile camera. Hence why I said with Lawyers, experts and miracles. I've spent close to $15k in legal fee's attempting to get off incorrectly issued tickets, and failed.

I think you got bad advice, there are supposedly experts in this area that can help you get off speeding tickets for a few hundred dollars, and from memory its not about proving the tickets are incorrectly issued.


The Queensland system allows fair error on behalf of the driver and the speedometer.

New regulations in QLd means you can get nicked for 1km over the limit, the fine is about $135 for 0-10kmh over. Whether the clerks in the traffic office bother sending notices for the low infringements is another question.

[990B Luva]

There's a concept called "litigation uncertainty"; which means basically that there's no such thing as an un-winable or an un-losable case. ... and there is no magic threshold in legal fees for being successful in defending a charge; whether it's 15k or 50k in legal fees it matters not to the verdict.

What were the facts in your matter?

The particular road in question?
The speed alleged?
What speed did you maintain you were doing?
What was your argument? eg. (a) I wasn't speeding; or (b) I had a lawful excuse, justification or defence for speeding.
What was your legal advice?
Did you give evidence at a Magistrate's Court hearing?
Did the Magistrate prefer the evidence of the police over your evidence? If so, why?
The Magistrate would have read out the reasons his decision. What was it?



* Sandgate Road
* 95km/h in a 60 zone
* Was speeding, 70-75km/h, definitely not 95. There is no lawful excuse for breaking the speed limit.
* Legal advice was to get the fine downgraded to under 13km/h over.
* Yes I did give evidence.
* Police had "photographic evidence" of my car doing 35km/h over the limit, I could not pull GPS logs from a non existant GPS unit to prove otherwise. I couldn't prove beyond reasonable doubt that I was not doing claimed speed.
* Charge stood at 95km/h in a 60 zone. 6 month loss of licence, $400 fine, plus court costs. Conviction recorded, "hoon impound" for 3 months.


I think you got bad advice, there are supposedly experts in this area that can help you get off speeding tickets for a few hundred dollars, and from memory its not about proving the tickets are incorrectly issued.


New regulations in QLd means you can get nicked for 1km over the limit, the fine is about $135 for 0-10kmh over. Whether the clerks in the traffic office bother sending notices for the low infringements is another question.

ADR's allow those who know to utilise speedometer accuracy laws to advantages. QLD are not issuing fines for 1km/h over. I'm not posting the tolerances, but 45 in a 40 zone will land you a ticket.

[TheTrueReview]

* Sandgate Road
* 95km/h in a 60 zone
* Was speeding, 70-75km/h, definitely not 95. There is no lawful excuse for breaking the speed limit.
* Legal advice was to get the fine downgraded to under 13km/h over.
* Yes I did give evidence.
* Police had "photographic evidence" of my car doing 35km/h over the limit, I could not pull GPS logs from a non existant GPS unit to prove otherwise. I couldn't prove beyond reasonable doubt that I was not doing claimed speed.
* Charge stood at 95km/h in a 60 zone. 6 month loss of licence, $400 fine, plus court costs. Conviction recorded, "hoon impound" for 3 months. ...

Hmmm ... well it came down to the evidence. The evidence of the police was accepted over yours. You admitted speeding (breaking the law) without a lawful excuse etc. Your argument was that you didn't break the law to the extent alleged by the police; a factual dispute that could only be resolved by the evidence. I suspect that you only sought to have the charge downgraded to try and avoid loss of licence.

The position of the OP is completely different to yours. He contends that he sped as an evasive response to avoid a sudden emergency. The relevant justification/excuse is contained in this section (http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/qld/consol_act/cc189994/s25.html) of the Criminal Code. If prosecuted, whether the excuse is accepted would depend on the evidence including whether there were other safer options available to avoid the sudden emergency.

[damoocow]

I have attempted to fight a speeding ticket issued by a mobile camera. Hence why I said with Lawyers, experts and miracles. I've spent close to $15k in legal fee's attempting to get off incorrectly issued tickets, and failed. Basically unless you have PHYSICAL proof there is no chance of getting off. If you feel the need, there are specialist traffic lawyers you can see.

I fought a speeding ticket about ten years ago and won - it was for 'estimated speed' . The magistrate called the police evidence, 'manifestly unreliable'.
In the last 6 weeks though I have had $444 in speeding fines - one from a camera 60 in a 50 zone and one radar 88 in a 60 zone when on a mountain road on my bike - didn't see the change of speed zone. I was speeding alright - no point in me whinging about it - the double demerit letter will certainly see me SLOW DOWN for the next year.

[990B Luva]

Hmmm ... well it came down to the evidence. The evidence of the police was accepted over yours. You admitted speeding (breaking the law) without a lawful excuse etc. Your argument was that you didn't break the law to the extent alleged by the police; a factual dispute that could only be resolved by the evidence. I suspect that you only sought to have the charge downgraded to try and avoid loss of licence.

The position of the OP is completely different to yours. He contends that he sped as an evasive response to avoid a sudden emergency. The relevant justification/excuse is contained in this section (http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/qld/consol_act/cc189994/s25.html) of the Criminal Code. If prosecuted, whether the excuse is accepted would depend on the evidence including whether there were other safer options available to avoid the sudden emergency.

I was only giving my opinions and experiences. If the OP wishes to fight the ticket, then it is his decision. Yes I did attempt to have the charge downgraded, not to avoid the loss of licence, it would have happened anyway, but to get the mandatory 6 month suspension for high range speeding down to 3 months for point accumulation.


I fought a speeding ticket about ten years ago and won - it was for 'estimated speed' . The magistrate called the police evidence, 'manifestly unreliable'.
In the last 6 weeks though I have had $444 in speeding fines - one from a camera 60 in a 50 zone and one radar 88 in a 60 zone when on a mountain road on my bike - didn't see the change of speed zone. I was speeding alright - no point in me whinging about it - the double demerit letter will certainly see me SLOW DOWN for the next year.

Estimated speed is alot harder for police to prove than a reading from a speed gun. It is near on impossible to get off a ticket issued by a camera or officer who has used a LIDAR Speed measuring device.

In the last 3 years, my driving style has changed dramatically, to the point where I now have a clean licence. Isn't it funny what having a child does to you?