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View Full Version : Special: Houston WE HAVE A PROBLEM!!!!!



nudgee
20th October 2011, 07:07 PM
I was just talking to my pro friend on the phone about the Oz Golf Champs and was giving him the low down of my weekend. I told him how I went walkabouts in the middle of the second round before rallying in the last three holes. I told him about the bad luck I had on the 16th hole which went something like this.

Hit 20* hybrid off the tee (yes I know that was ghey) and hit it long and down the middle. I could not reach the green in two so I hit a 6 iron intending to land it in flat area short of the greenside bunkers, however I tugged it a little and it took a bitch of a bounce left into the trees. Fortunately I found the ball and whilst it was against a big tree root, I still had a shot and managed to blast it out. The ball just stopped short of the green side bunker, basically 1 cm from dropping in - a very sandy lie. Unfortunately with my chip I didnt pick the ball up cleanly, fluffed it a bit and it did not make it onto the green - and to add insult to injury it plugged at the face of the bunker about 1 foot from the lip!!! I cracked it and proceeded to throw my wedge at high speed into the bunker (yeah I know, another cranky moment!). The wedge head plugged into the bunker like an axe but was away from the ball. I grabbed the wedge and took a funky stance outside of the bunker and proceeded to play a blast shot that propelled the plugged ball 20 feet into the air and it landed 1 foot from the hole so got away with a bogey. At the time I had joked with the guys that thank god I let go of the wedge before it hit the sand as otherwise it would have been deemed to be a case of testing the bunker conditions.

However to my great horror, my Pro mate INFORMED ME that as the Wedge head was plugged in the sand, the mere action of lifting the wedge should be deemed as testing conditions and should therefore have attracted a 2 shot penalty!!!! ****!!!

I must admit I don't know the rules that well and as I did not get much of a reaction from my group (even when I made the comment about testing sand conditions) as to a potential breach of the rules I thought it was all good. However I don't want to win the Champs if I was wrong in my assessment and should have incurred a two shot penalty.

Is my Pro friend correct in his assessment??? I don't want to add any further drama to this but I cannot accept the Champion tag and Trophy if I was in clear breach of the rules and should have incurred a two stroke penalty.

For the record, I am serious about this.

Marto65
20th October 2011, 07:16 PM
Ok , I'll start.

Wow.

Tomson
20th October 2011, 07:17 PM
I tip my hat to you sir for being honest.

Sydney Hacker
20th October 2011, 07:18 PM
I tip my hat to you sir for being honest.<br />
<br />
+1, would of been very easy to keep it to yourself!

live4golf
20th October 2011, 07:20 PM
Proof that this is truly a gentleman's game....

Can we call you Dustin?

just
20th October 2011, 07:21 PM
The champs was so last week. The results are in and the tournament finished and as per any other comp, that would be the final result. But you are a champion fella.

live4golf
20th October 2011, 07:23 PM
ohhh yeah, just is right...changes nothing. Still want you to be known as Dustin though :)

PeteyD
20th October 2011, 07:24 PM
Yep. You are champ, the tournament is already called.

Bruce
20th October 2011, 07:24 PM
Ummm.. really.

You do have a problem.

13-4/35 Hitting Sand in Bunker with Club After Failing to Extricate Ball
A made a stroke in a bunker and failed to get the ball out. He then swung his club into the sand, but his action did not affect his new lie in the bunker. However, since A had to make another stroke in the bunker, was he in breach of Rule 13-4?

Yes. None of the Exceptions under Rule 13-4 apply to A's action.

live4golf
20th October 2011, 07:25 PM
Extricate...sounds dirty :)

WBennett
20th October 2011, 07:26 PM
nudgee, it was not a Kenny Perry cheat. Your marker did not pick it up, and neither did your markers. Nudgee, without controversy, wins

Yossarian
20th October 2011, 07:30 PM
Ummm.. really.

You do have a problem.

13-4/35 Hitting Sand in Bunker with Club After Failing to Extricate Ball
A made a stroke in a bunker and failed to get the ball out. He then swung his club into the sand, but his action did not affect his new lie in the bunker. However, since A had to make another stroke in the bunker, was he in breach of Rule 13-4?

Yes. None of the Exceptions under Rule 13-4 apply to A's action.

He didn't make the fluff in the bunker but just outside it, then threw his crub into the bunker?

PeteyD
20th October 2011, 07:41 PM
Anger managment

Ned
20th October 2011, 07:42 PM
No brainer....nudgee wins the champs but he has to repay me the $20 he "won" off me.
The bookies pay on podium positions in motor racing even if there are post race protests.

wanker...........

nudgee
20th October 2011, 07:48 PM
He didn't make the fluff in the bunker but just outside it, then threw his crub into the bunker?

You are correct

jaybam
20th October 2011, 07:52 PM
Thank god for that. Could you imagine having to all go back up there for another presentation??

TourFit
20th October 2011, 07:54 PM
Well, as I see it (after looking it up of course), the question isn't about the club going INTO the bunker as the previous shot was played from ouside of the hazard...it is as Nudgee saw it and the question will be whether it is deemed that the removal of the club from the sand is constituted as testing the lie.

It would be a pretty harsh crowd to take away the Champs title based on that, especially considering common rules breaches that no doubt would have occured naturally over the weekend...such as dc's 'strictly illegal' drop from the temporary hazard of sand, ice and can. We gonna ping him for that?

Don't worry about it.

In the spirit of the game, it would be likely that your INTENT was not to test the lie, but to merely retreive your club!!!

td42t
20th October 2011, 07:56 PM
Is that what happened, I thought you fell into the bunker.

virge666
20th October 2011, 08:03 PM
Isn't the problem the grounding of the wedge into the hazard ?

AndyP
20th October 2011, 08:11 PM
We're not playing for sheepstations.

It's not like you intentionally cheated like iPhone DMD users.

Hux
20th October 2011, 08:15 PM
Nudgee you really need to get better club throwing technique.....firstly you lose a tour issue hybrid, then a tour issue TVD wedge and now the Champs!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1


Dicky Dicky Dicky Dicky Dicky Dicky Dicky Dicky Dicky Dicky Dicky Dicky Dicky Dicky Dicky Dicky Dicky Dicky Dicky Dicky Dicky Dicky Dicky Dicky


Seriously - if Dicky didn't have a problem then and doesn't now **** IT. Its not an intentional testing of the sand but a need to get some shit off your liver (and golf towels) by throwing the club.

matty
20th October 2011, 08:41 PM
The results are null and void and we'll have to do it all again next weekend.

Ned
20th October 2011, 08:41 PM
Is that what happened, I thought you fell into the bunker.

Loves his kitty litter................

Webster
20th October 2011, 08:44 PM
DQ. 69er wins.

shavey
20th October 2011, 08:47 PM
DQ. 69er wins.

Could be on to something there Jack as Dicky would have signed an incorrect scorecard :razz:

AndyP
20th October 2011, 08:51 PM
Just add it to the list of things that 69er choked on over the closing holes.

Eag's
20th October 2011, 08:53 PM
It's done and dusted Nudgee, nothing to concern yourself about.
Move on people, nothing to see here.

KristianJ
20th October 2011, 08:55 PM
Thank god for that. Could you imagine having to all go back up there for another presentation??

I can't imagine Mildura Marty would relish another 17 hour odyssey so soon.

Marto65
20th October 2011, 08:57 PM
Blue Balls anyone?

Ferrins
20th October 2011, 09:13 PM
Fess up if you cheated in the birdie comp virge.

As for Jamie


s my Pro friend correct in his assessment??? I don't want to add any further drama to this but I cannot accept the Champion tag and Trophy if I was in clear breach of the rules and should have incurred a two stroke penalty.


Fair enough, Dickie wins.

Ferrins
20th October 2011, 09:23 PM
A thousand apologies.

Outcast
20th October 2011, 09:31 PM
Mate, I tips me hat to you for your honesty but, as others have alluded to, no-one picked it up at the time, you did not intentionally cheat and after all we did not play for sheep stations.

I think the result is done and dusted..... Next time take more care with your club throwing so as to avoid the situation completely; to assist you in your endeavours I have included this wonderful instructional video:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UYb0XAb7yFk.

markTHEblake
20th October 2011, 09:36 PM
Is my Pro friend correct in his assessment???

Not sure, and its unusual for a Pro to know the rules :-)


I don't want to add any further drama to this but I cannot accept the Champion tag and Trophy if I was in clear breach of the rules and should have incurred a two stroke penalty.

Rule 34-1. You cant be penalised after the competition has closed and the result announced. There are exceptions to this rule but they do not apply here. Basically you must have consulted with your playing partners and arrived at the decision you all thought was correct at the time.

BTW you are not the only competitor to have made a similar breach of the rules that would have impacted results , but I aint sayin' so dont ask! (by similar I mean thought they acted correctly but didnt, and nobody else in the group considered otherwise)

So suck it in champ, you still da winna!

Dotty
20th October 2011, 09:49 PM
The player placed a club in a bunker (albeit with extreme velocity) and discussed with those present whether it constituted testing the condition of the hazard.

So it could be allowable under 13-4 exception 1b.

Keep the sheep station.

Shadesy
20th October 2011, 10:00 PM
If I pick up a rake out of the bunker to bring it closer to the ball before my shot , is that illegal? Could that be testing the sand?

Shadesy
20th October 2011, 10:21 PM
Is there a difference then if you lift the club out of the bunker? Or was it because it required a bit of force to get the club out therefore could of constituted testing the sand?

Johnny Canuck
20th October 2011, 10:38 PM
The player placed a club in a bunker (albeit with extreme velocity) and discussed with those present whether it constituted testing the condition of the hazard.

So it could be allowable under 13-4 exception 1b.

Keep the sheep station.

Exactly.


If I pick up a rake out of the bunker to bring it closer to the ball before my shot , is that illegal? Could that be testing the sand?

No. You can even throw it.

Just don't be a dumbass and rake your footprints before you play...


I believe it is if you rake with it. I was told that once as I raked the footprints en route to my ball in the bunker.

... like he did.


Is there a difference then if you lift the club out of the bunker? Or was it because it required a bit of force to get the club out therefore could of constituted testing the sand?

That's what they are arguing, but it is not covered explicitly in the rules. You could safely argue that Nudgee wasn't testing the sand.

solarman
21st October 2011, 08:35 AM
I think that the wedge in question should somehow become a trophy for future events e.g. sportsmanship award.
Mounted on one of those boards someone is advertising their father does.

LarryLong
21st October 2011, 11:06 AM
Maybe we need to inaugurate the 'Golden Helicopter' award in honor of this event?

Sounds to me like Nudgee deserves the win and gets bonus points for coming clean.

Hypothetical: Assuming it is a two-stroke penalty to pick up the wedge after throwing it into the face of the bunker, what would you do if it interfered with your intended stance or swing? Would you have to leave it there, grab another club and try to hack it out without snapping your wedge? What if you moved the club in the act of taking your stance?

Johnny Canuck
21st October 2011, 11:40 AM
Maybe we need to inaugurate the 'Golden Helicopter' award in honor of this event?
Sounds to me like Nudgee deserves the win and gets bonus points for coming clean.
Hypothetical: Assuming it is a two-stroke penalty to pick up the wedge after throwing it into the face of the bunker, what would you do if it interfered with your intended stance or swing? Would you have to leave it there, grab another club and try to hack it out without snapping your wedge? What if you moved the club in the act of taking your stance?

You can also argue that it is a moveable obstruction, which gives you free relief. I saw that in a ruling somewhere.

just
21st October 2011, 11:47 AM
I have constant hope for a ruling that gives me free daily relief from a movable obstruction.

Ferrins
21st October 2011, 12:36 PM
I'll buy the wedge for $20 and you can back date the sale to just after you slammed it into the bunker, so then the wedge was mine and you were removing a removable obstruction.

virge666
21st October 2011, 12:48 PM
Hypothetical: Assuming it is a two-stroke penalty to pick up the wedge after throwing it into the face of the bunker, what would you do if it interfered with your intended stance or swing? Would you have to leave it there, grab another club and try to hack it out without snapping your wedge? What if you moved the club in the act of taking your stance?

Bit lost on this gents...

Played shot and flubbed it into the bunker...
Threw Tanty and chucked wedge into said bunker . . .

Is this not a two shot penalty for ground a club in a hazard ? Forget removing it, the fact that it is in the bunker in the first place is the problem.

Am I missing something ?


(and it is done and dusted... Nudgee still wins, has to be brought up before award handed out.)

Johnny Canuck
21st October 2011, 12:54 PM
Not a grounded club if you are not holding it.

virge666
21st October 2011, 01:00 PM
Not a grounded club if you are not holding it.

Not on my watch . . .

If I walk into a hazard with 3 clubs, then drop 2 of them next to me in the hazard, it is regarded as grounding your club.

I only know this due to my 2007 pennant semifinal at the Australian golf club.

Johnny Canuck
21st October 2011, 01:11 PM
Not on my watch . . .
If I walk into a hazard with 3 clubs, then drop 2 of them next to me in the hazard, it is regarded as grounding your club.
I only know this due to my 2007 pennant semifinal at the Australian golf club.

The rules state that you can place clubs in bunkers. The decisions book states that you can throw a rake into a bunker.

There is nothing that defines throwing a club into a bunker or the difference between placing and throwing.

Sounds like you got burned when you should not have.

rubin
21st October 2011, 01:27 PM
I think that a lot of it comes down to you, and your playing partners, interpretation of the ruling and the intent of the player. This is not a rule that is clear cut, but JC is right. There is nothing that specifically defines the throwing of a club into a bunker, the removal of a club, or the difference between placing and throwing.

virge666
21st October 2011, 01:51 PM
I think that a lot of it comes down to you, and your playing partners, interpretation of the ruling and the intent of the player. This is not a rule that is clear cut, but JC is right. There is nothing that specifically defines the throwing of a club into a bunker, the removal of a club, or the difference between placing and throwing.

So by your definition... I can stand there in the bunker and test the sand by throwing clubs at the sand to see how deep it is and how hard packed it is ?

Let me try that this weekend in front of the match committee. I can't wait to see their faces !

CobraSS
21st October 2011, 02:07 PM
So by your definition... I can stand there in the bunker and test the sand by throwing clubs at the sand to see how deep it is and how hard packed it is ?



The rules state that it depends on your "Intention" so if you are deliberately throwing clubs into the bunker to test the sand as stated above, then you are subject to a penalty, however if in the act of throwing your club into the sand, it was not your intention to test the sand coditions, then you are not subject to a penalty, under that rule.

Johnny Canuck
21st October 2011, 02:08 PM
In your example you are intending to test. At least you would deserve it this time.

There is nothing in the rules that states if you drop a club it is a penalty, unless you are intending to test.

What is the difference between throwing a rake into a bunker or a club? Surely they could tell you the same thing if you intended to test.

rubin
21st October 2011, 02:08 PM
So by your definition... I can stand there in the bunker and test the sand by throwing clubs at the sand to see how deep it is and how hard packed it is ?

Let me try that this weekend in front of the match committee. I can't wait to see their faces !

kind of missing the first sentence there and taking it a bit far - but go for it and tell me their reaction.

LeftyHoges
21st October 2011, 02:12 PM
So by your definition... I can stand there in the bunker and test the sand by throwing clubs at the sand to see how deep it is and how hard packed it is ?

Let me try that this weekend in front of the match committee. I can't wait to see their faces !

Was thinking the same thing as I read the previous comments. Would have been bloody handy down at country week in melbourne a fortnight ago with the varying conditions of sand from bunker to bunker.

Dotty
21st October 2011, 02:15 PM
Interesting what the decision would be (with regards to testing), if a similar incident took place on the first visit to a bunker on the weekend (rather than the 34th hole).

Johnny Canuck
21st October 2011, 02:21 PM
Doesn't digging your feet in give you a decent indication of the conditions?

CobraSS
21st October 2011, 02:24 PM
Doesn't digging your feet in give you a decent indication of the conditions?

It does, but one would have to prove that your action of digging your feet in, was solely to test the sand conditions, rather than just the action of taking your stance, and that quite simply isn't going to happen.

Daves
21st October 2011, 02:30 PM
Clearly no intention to test, seems to be all OK and in line the wording of Rule 13 (13.4 more specifically).

http://www.randa.org/en/Rules-and-Amateur-Status/Rules-of-Golf.aspx#/rules/?ruleNum=13&subRuleNum=4

You can place clubs in a hazard, providing there is no intent to, and no further action that would constitute testing. Excessive digging in (of stance) is considered testing.

Johnny Canuck
21st October 2011, 02:32 PM
It does, but one would have to prove that your action of digging your feet in, was solely to test the sand conditions, rather than just the action of taking your stance, and that quite simply isn't going to happen.
Sorry Cobra, was just referring to Lefty's post.

jaybam
21st October 2011, 02:32 PM
Cheat !!!!!












I dont mean it nudgee but someone had to say it :)

LeftyHoges
21st October 2011, 02:34 PM
Doesn't digging your feet in give you a decent indication of the conditions?

Usually it does but the bunkers that I encountered down in Melbourne had me ****ed. No rhyme or reason to them.

They'd feel soft enough under foot but were actually incredibly firm. So then you'd play the next one that way and it was soft. Cost me a lot of strokes.

And I consider myself to be a good bunker player. Not great, but more than solid.

Johnny Canuck
21st October 2011, 02:36 PM
My home course can be similar. It's a crappy situation if you don't know what you are getting.

Daves
21st October 2011, 02:38 PM
So by your definition... I can stand there in the bunker and test the sand by throwing clubs at the sand to see how deep it is and how hard packed it is ?

Let me try that this weekend in front of the match committee. I can't wait to see their faces !

Your intent is to test, so you are pinged.

As I understand it The Champ wasn't in the bunker when he threw the club. Club was thrown indiscriminately and not specially aimed (anyone who has played with Nudgee know how indiscriminate he is in his throwing!!). A certain Hybrid ending in a watery grave is exhibit 1 for the defence your honour!

goughy
21st October 2011, 03:02 PM
All is moot. Tournament is over, closed, finished. Would have to have been brought up before winners announced. Weiner is declared and it's days later now so that's that.

Ps. Swype spelled winner as weiner, but I thought I'd leave it as it is.

Well done nudgee! A Deserving Winner!

Sent from my GT-I9000 using Tapatalk

LeftyHoges
21st October 2011, 03:11 PM
My home course can be similar. It's a crappy situation if you don't know what you are getting.

Yeah, nothing worse than having to play out of a bunker with no idea what could happen.

My home track has possibly the shittest sand you could ever play out of but I must give it this, its always soft. At least its consistent.

Johnny Canuck
21st October 2011, 03:17 PM
We had 2 bunkers with super fluffy sand that they tried as an experiment. I couldn't get out of them.

BrisWesty
21st October 2011, 03:56 PM
Salutory reminder to not throw clubs, especially anywhere near bunkers.

Moe Norman
21st October 2011, 04:05 PM
Nudgee retains title

Punishment is to act as rules official at 2012 Champs and track down nasty iphone cheaters, or caddy for Dicky

PeteyD
21st October 2011, 04:05 PM
Nudgee retains title

Punishment is to act as rules official at 2012 Champs and track down nasty iphone cheaters, or caddy for Dicky
In a matching Canary Yellow Outfit

Eag's
21st October 2011, 04:12 PM
Congrats again Nudgee.

Daves
21st October 2011, 04:12 PM
Of far more importance, I would like to lodge a late protest on the first round of Coins against the wall on Friday night. I clearly won and Dickie, like a thief in the night, suddenly declared it a practice round FFS!!!. The money involved was inconsequential, but the bragging and sledging rights that should have come with my clear win should have been forever! Absolutely gutted!!

Shadesy
21st October 2011, 04:31 PM
This rule is the closest I can find.

JC's issue of Intent is very pertinent in this issue, much like Kevin Na's INTENT not to hit the ball. The intent was not to test, so therefore is fine in this instance.

http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Decision-13/#13-4/21

Love a good rules debate.

edit: Daves had it spot on:



http://www.randa.org/en/Rules-and-Amateur-Status/Rules-of-Golf.aspx#/rules/?ruleNum=13&subRuleNum=4


Even more specifically, Rule 13-4 Exception 1b.....1. Provided nothing is done that constitutes testing the condition of the hazard or improves the lie of the ball, there is no penalty if the player (b) places his clubs in a hazard.

Sounds like you were Ferked Virge!

Congrats Nudgee.

BTW, did anyone use an Iphone as DMD?

PeteyD
21st October 2011, 04:33 PM
No all i-Phones were smashed with a hammer on Saturday morning, before the remnants were cast upon the murky waters of duckpoop lake.

MegaWatty
21st October 2011, 04:52 PM
No all i-Phones were smashed with a hammer on Saturday morning, before the remnants were cast upon the murky waters of duckpoop lake.

Is that like the lake at Windaroo with the island that's inhabited with bird shit? That thing ****en stinks!

Marto65
21st October 2011, 09:21 PM
Daves, that was my fault. I intentionally threw the coin against the wall not knowing that it was an illegal move. Dickie was just looking after a champs virgin.

Secondly, how does the rules distinguish between intent to test the sand and the intent of iPhone users to use the compass feature?

LarryLong
21st October 2011, 09:36 PM
What about intent to throw the coin against the wall?

Marto65
21st October 2011, 09:59 PM
What about intent to throw the coin against the wall?

Forgivable first offence.

kingslayer33
22nd October 2011, 03:29 AM
...Secondly, how does the rules distinguish between intent to test the sand and the intent of iPhone users to use the compass feature?

Maybe "intent" as a grey area only becomes valid because the original club (and rake) makers paid their kick-back to the USGA and R&A, and the compass inventor did not. :)

Moe Norman
22nd October 2011, 09:20 AM
Secondly, how does the rules distinguish between intent to test the sand and the intent of iPhone users to use the compass feature?

Completely different. One is avoidable, and is an active choice to use something outside the rules of golf.

Intent once you're out there is completely different. The iphone DMD rule is more comparable to carrying 15 clubs, but only intending to use 14.