Forged Irons from Japan vs US or China – The Facts...according to Tom Wishon

[TourFit]

Found this blog from Tom recently...thought some of you guys may be interested.

An interesting read....



Forged Irons from Japan vs US or China – The Facts

If you’re into golf clubs or spend time reading the various golf equipment internet forums, there are occasional discussions from which you could get the impression that forged carbon steel iron heads made in Japan are superior to those made anywhere else in the world.


As a veteran of clubhead design and production with more than 25 yrs of head design experience including a whole lot of forged ironhead designs, I’m here to tell you this buzz about Japanese made forgings is simply not true. But first, a brief time out – sadly as an American I have to tell you that the US forging factories used to rule the roost in this area of clubhead production, but since the late 90s, the US forging companies have either gone out of business or no longer play a significant role in the forging of clubheads. Cornell of Chicago and Hoffman of Memphis, the two forging factories that ruled the golf industry for most of the 20th century are sadly gone. I can’t tell you if Wilson’s forging factory in Tennessee is still in business, but as of 1998 when I last worked with them on a project related to my work on helping Golfsmith buy the Snake Eyes name, their business was pretty much gone then.
I also had a brief experience with Smith & Wesson, the US firearms manufacturer who had a short lived stint in the golf business when Snake Eyes contracted with them to make a forged carbon steel iron in the late 90s. While the man who supervised the project for S & W very definitely wanted to continue the project, he insisted they would not do so unless S & W re-made the forging dies. Snake Eyes had contracted with a lower cost company to make the forging dies for this project and then handed the dies to S & W to forge the heads. According to the S & W supervisor, the poor quality of the forging dies caused all sorts of problems, such that S & W admitted these heads were not even close to showing what they could do. Long story short, I did not re-up the project because the cost for S & W to remake the forging dies was far more expensive than we were willing to pay to continue that project.
So that leaves China as a competitor to the Japanese forging factories. It was 1994 when I became aware of the first serious attempt by a Chinese based company to do forged clubhead production. By 1998 this company (Virage Tech Industrial) was a serious contender in the forging production business in the golf industry.
In 2002 before I started TWGT, I served as a design and production consultant for the Virage Tech company. Based in western China, Virage Tech began business in 1994 and now counts a number of the well known US and Japanese golf companies as customers for their forged iron head production. During the time, I had the chance to live, eat and breathe every possible part of clubhead forging design and production. With my experience in clubhead design and specifically in forged clubhead design, I know nothing of any other China based forging companies, but I can tell you that Virage Tech most definitely knows what they are doing and does produce forged ironheads which are every bit as good as and better than any of the Japan forging companies. The sheer fact Virage Tech does produce forged iron heads for some of the largest golf companies is itself a strong testimony on behalf of their skills.
But time out number two here for a moment before we get into any specifics about the actual forging process. First and foremost, with ANY clubhead design, whether forged, formed or cast, the ultimate outcome of the quality and performance of the design lies far more with the designer or the clubhead product manager of the golf company than it does with the production factory. This is just as the software people like to say, “garbage in means garbage out.”

Continued below...

[TourFit]

Continued...


Design wise, if the creator of the head model doesn’t do his job to design each head in the set so all the dimensions and mass properties are perfect, doesn’t verify this on the tooling masters, doesn’t check it on the first raw forging runs, and doesn’t ensure it on the first production runs of the finished heads, it isn’t going to matter how much skill and experience the production factory has – the head model will not perform as well as one that has been managed perfectly through all its pre-production development. Period.
Now let’s talk specifics of the forging process itself.
Carbon Steel Quality. Tons of the mavens on the golf forums like to say that the steel used by the Japan forging factories is better. Malarkey. Any metallurgist will tell you that the typical carbon steel alloys used to forge ironheads are the easiest to formulate of any metal – meaning getting the right percentages of the Carbon, Manganese, Phosphorus, and Sulfur to mix in with the base Iron are very easy to achieve. What’s more, any decent steel supplier will always ship specification documents with each mill run of the steel which verify the +/- tolerances for every chemical and mechanical property of the steel based on international standards. In short, if you buy carbon steel for iron head forging from a Japanese mill or a Chinese mill which possesses the proper certifications from the various international metal standards organizations, you get the same exact steel. Period. Having seen the shipments of carbon steel at the Virage Tech factory with their mill spec certification paperwork, I can testify that in no way is the carbon steel used by the Japan forging companies any better or any different.
Forging Die Quality. Both the Japan forging companies as well as Virage Tech routinely make their forging dies from a very hard tool steel called SKD-61 alloy, which has a Rockwell hardness of HRC55-57. Here again, the chemical and mechanical properties of SKD-61 steel are verified by international certifications. As to the quality of each forging die with respect to making each head correctly, this again is a dual responsibility between the head model designer/manager of the golf club company in combination with the forging companies’ tooling supervisor. If the raw forgings come out of the die at the correct weight, loft, lie, face progression, shape requirements and within the required +/- tolerances for each, the die quality is assured.
I remember when I worked briefly with the Wilson forging factory that had been the main supplier of the original Snake Eyes forged irons and wedges, upon measuring the weight of the raw forgings for each like iron or wedge head, I saw a raw forging weight tolerance of +/- 30 grams and more! Inspecting raw forging quality at Virage Tech, I saw their weight tolerance for the raw forgings as they come out of the last forging step to be +/-5 grams – which is considered to be extremely tight for a raw forging. Wide weight tolerances in the raw forgings are a product of poor die construction as well as poor control of the actual forging process itself.
Forging Process. In hitting the most important points of the process, first of all, a quality made raw forging has to achieve the following requirements; 1) a very tight weight tolerance so that when the raw forging is processed into a finished head ready to be electroplated, no real variation has to be done in the machining, grinding and finishing processes and the heads can end up with a tight finished head tolerance. 2) the surface condition of the raw forging has to be of very high quality so that the minimum amount of material is removed in the machining, grinding and finishing processes to again achieve a very tight finished head quality. 3) the internal grain structure is as uniform and isotropic as possible with the least number of “tiny holes” which are called internal voids.
To achieve this, Virage Tech and the Japan forging companies use both an 800 ton and 1000 ton forging press in the production of the forged carbon steel ironheads they produce. Using a higher level of forging pressure does not ensure quality in the raw forging. Using the RIGHT forging pressure with the forging dies made precisely to match with the specific forging pressure for each forging step is what ensures the raw forgings come out with a more uniform grain structure and with a minimum of voids.
One thing I might add – to my knowledge Virage Tech was the first forging company to increase the number of forging die steps to be able to improve the outcome of all three forging requirements I listed above. The Japan forging companies followed suit after Virage Tech inaugurated this change in their forging production. I am proud to say that I had a hand in this decision when I was serving as a production consultant to Virage Tech in 2002.
The first project I was handed by Virage Tech was to figure out how to improve the head to head shape consistency for a forged iron model they were making for one of the larger OEM golf companies. This particular golf company had been trying to get tour players to use this forged iron model and was hearing complaints from the pros that there were variations in the leading edge and toe profile shape of one set vs another of the same model.
In studying the model through production, I could see that after the completion of the usual 4th and last forging step to make the raw forgings, the excess flashing material squeezed to the outer edges of each head was large enough that the Virage Tech workers could make a mistake and grind too much steel off the outer edges of the toe and sole and change the profile slightly. The workers had tried using face profile templates to guide their final grinding of these surfaces, but this was not solving the problem.
I suggested that if they added on one more forging step, this would reduce the excess flashing on the outer edges of the head to a much smaller section that could more easily be ground off by the workers without touching the actual profile edges of each head. A 5th forging die was made for each head and the result was far less material to grind off the edges of the heads, which in turn meant all heads of the same number came out of production looking the same.
Not only did this 5th forging step improve the density consistency of the raw forgings, which in turn tightened the +/- weight tolerance of the raw forgings, but this additional forging step further reduced the number of internal voids and improved the consistency of the grain structure of the carbon steel.
Add it all up and I tend to think the one thing that the Japan forging companies actually do which leads many technically uninformed people to form the opinion the Japanese forgings are better is the simple fact the forging companies in Japan charge a much higher price than does Virage Tech for its forgings. Marketing wise, it’s a simple but ill formed conclusion to assume when you pay more money, a product is better. Plain and simple, the price difference comes chiefly because of the labor cost differences between Japan and China.
So those are a few of the high points in this ongoing discussion of China vs Japan forgings. As always, if any of you have comments, that’s what our TWGT Blog is for.
Until next time, best wishes in this great game,
TOM

[MegaWatty]

I made it through the first post.

[Webster]

so which feel softer?

[live4golf]

Can someone please dumb this down and condense it into 3 fairly simple lines.

Thanks

[MegaWatty]

Tom uses a Chinese forging house. He believes they are as good as a Japanese forging house.

I have actually heard that TW forgings are of very high quality.

I guess he's also protecting he's own interests.

I like TW. I am not trying to discredit him.

[Ferrins]

Is TourFit about to flog off some way cool Chinese forged blades, Jack will be all over them.

[TourFit]

Those who want it dumbed down are obviously NOT the same guys who argue about such things as "Jap is better" and "soft as butter" and such like...

L4G...here goes.

"You won't notice the difference numbnuts!"

[live4golf]

perfect, thanks :)

[TourFit]

I think what should be said at this point, is that (to me) the argument should NOT really be about the place etc, but rather the care and quality control within the entire process...

The difficulty with the Chinese market in relation to golf club manufacture is the wide range of quality and care between the very best and the the very worst...in many ways it is THAT which may form most of the problem of public opinion (which is very often NOT very well informed)

[Ferrins]

My Bridgestone are premium forged so they must be good.

[MegaWatty]

Those who want it dumbed down are obviously NOT the same guys who argue about such things as "Jap is better" and "soft as butter" and such like...L4G...here goes."You won't notice the difference numbnuts!"Is this true fit?

[Yossarian]

But the JDM stuff is better right.

[TourFit]

My Bridgestone are premium forged so they must be good.

Some Bridgestone's are now made in Thailand...at the Endo factory there!!! Same as some Titleists.



Is this true fit?

Pretty much, yes. All of us on this site could NEVER tell the difference. In fact pretty much none of us could definitively tell between a 1025 forged head and a 1025 cast head!!! (Vokeys are cast, as are the older Clevelands...and we still play them!)

The differences become apparent IN QUANTITY...say a couple of hundred heads or more, carefully measured and recorded.



But the JDM stuff is better right.

JDM stands for Japanese Domestic Market...which is where it is sold...to people willing to pay big bucks...and it is marketed that way. For 99%+ of golfers the real differences are virtually none.

It is mostly EGO based performance enhancing, as Tom mentions in the text. If you pay more you think it is better, and therefore it WILL be better...WRONG!

[timinsa]

I think someone needs to post this in the Mizuno thread.


My iPhone 4 has Tapatalk but no compass. Just great.

[MegaWatty]

I hope PTP doesn't read this whilst flying!

[rubin]

But the JDM stuff is better right.

Regardless - some if it looks awesome, and is almost worth the extra for that alone.

[TourFit]

I think someone needs to post this in the Mizuno thread.

They wouldn't listen...



I hope PTP doesn't read this whilst flying!

Neither would he...

[TourFit]

Regardless - some if it looks awesome, and is almost worth the extra for that alone.

Like the gimmick of the R11 'WHITE' clubs, right...in what possible way can changing the PAINT give better performance? It is merely marketing hype.

It is a quote that is far more accurate in relation to hookers!!! But in relation to clubs...meh.

[rubin]

nah - not so much the clubs. but the bags, and covers etc. some of the clubs look cool.

And i agree on the r11. the white did in no way whatsoever improve "alignment" as they referred to. And i got sick of it very quickly.

[dean0820]

geesh, where should i start?
this guy knows golf, but nothing about international business.

put it this way,
if i was gonna buy a car, or a dvd player, or some baby food, or a phone,
would i prefer one from japan, or from china?
the answer is easy.
if it's made in japan, the chance of getting a dud is next to nothing.
if it's made in china, you are worried (or you should be).
the attention to detail in research and design and the quality of raw material in production in japan is second to none.
china's best product might be as high quality as your average japanese product,
but to believe that a china made product will be of consistently high quality is simply naive.

[MegaWatty]

Why do Japanese companies manufacture products in China then?

[BrentonJ]

Like the gimmick of the R11 'WHITE' clubs, right...in what possible way can changing the PAINT give better performance? It is merely marketing hype.

It is a quote that is far more accurate in relation to hookers!!! But in relation to clubs...meh.

Actually I think looks play a big part. If you like the look of a club it can inspire confidence, and if you are confidence with a club you going to play better with it.

[Yossarian]

geesh, where should i start?
this guy knows golf, but nothing about international business.

put it this way,
if i was gonna buy a car, or a dvd player, or some baby food, or a phone,
would i prefer one from japan, or from china?
the answer is easy.
if it's made in japan, the chance of getting a dud is next to nothing.
if it's made in china, you are worried (or you should be).
the attention to detail in research and design and the quality of raw material in production in japan is second to none.
china's best product might be as high quality as your average japanese product,
but to believe that a china made product will be of consistently high quality is simply naive.

We are talking about golf clubs here no? How is the other stuff relevant?

Wishon talks about a system or certification to ensure quality in the production. Is there a reason to doubt that?

[TourFit]

Cost...rents are higher, labour is more expensive etc etc etc (Endo in the Thailand factory have Japanese management and supervisors, apparently). The Chinese Govt also give some pretty HUGE incentives to overseas companies to invest in China in their Special Economic Zones, such as Shenzhan or Xiamen in South China (cheap long term leases, building subsidies, power subsidies etc, abundance of cheap labour)

Deano, I have no argument with what you said....but that is more a question of the PROCESS and the quality control etc. In the Endo example above, they are taking the IMPORTANT issues that make the Japanese stuff so revered and using cheaper labour and site costs to make their products more competitive.

The graphite shaft company I deal with are Taiwanese, and while the admin etc is all in Taipei, the ACTUAL factory is in China...run by Taiwanese managers but with cheaper Chinese labour.

[MegaWatty]

I know fit. That's what I was eluding to. A lot of the factories in China that are producing goods for Japanese companies have been tooled by those original Japanese companies.

[dean0820]

Why do Japanese companies manufacture products in China then?

i think a man of your stature might be able to figure that one out by yourself.

[MegaWatty]

i think a man of your stature might be able to figure that one out by yourself. Rhetorical.

[dean0820]

We are talking about golf clubs here no? How is the other stuff relevant?

you really can't see it?


Wishon talks about a system or certification to ensure quality in the production. Is there a reason to doubt that?

bwaa haa haa, what do you reckon?

[dean0820]

Rhetorical.

glad.

[MegaWatty]

Hey fit. Those nice wedges you sell are Japanese forged. They're nice.

Do you have Chinese forged clubs in your range?

[just]

Dean
You are going beyond a joke. To suggest one country can do pressed metal way better than another country is ridiculous. The only difference may be in the end quality control processes, but I would suggest to you that there a manufacturers in China whose standards are the same as Japan, much as Wishon has just described.

[Yossarian]

you really can't see it?



bwaa haa haa, what do you reckon?

I am quite stupid.

I just lost a massive reply cause my net crashed, in essence what just said.

[Veefore]

Dean
You are going beyond a joke. To suggest one country can do pressed metal way better than another country is ridiculous. The only difference may be in the end quality control processes, but I would suggest to you that there a manufacturers in China whose standards are the same as Japan, much as Wishon has just described.

I agree with Just. Squashing a bit of metal between other bits of metal isn't rocket surgery.

In the end, quality is whatever the paying (wholesale) customer is willing to pay for and specify. It is irrelevant which country that bit of metal was squashed in if the quality control is carried out correctly.
When I was with Eagle, we had products made in China to the exact same quality (as per our aircraft specification) at far cheaper prices than we could get them from Japan.

Geez, it wasn't that long ago that people considered EVERTHING made in Japan to be of the lowest quality in the world. How times (and perceptions) have changed.

[Veefore]

By the way 'Fit, where are the Tourfit blades made? I was looking at them the other day and they looked real nice.

[goughy]

Maybe they're better for that same reason as this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EQa4HHkhwVg

[3oneday]

Like the gimmick of the R11 'WHITE' clubs, right...in what possible way can changing the PAINT give better performance? It is merely marketing hype.

It is a quote that is far more accurate in relation to hookers!!! But in relation to clubs...meh.you mean like 100 gram driver shafts being sold for $200 ?



;)

[timinsa]

Seriously. It's a lump of metal on a stick. The type of ball you use & how the club is assembled is waaaaay more important to the feel of the club than where the head is made.

Japanese forging belongs in the " fads you did/didn't succumb to" thread. Although once again, as in the case of Scotty Cameron, the inherent value of IWF cannot be overestimated.

[TheTrueReview]

TF, Kudos for creating the thread & going to the trouble with your posts.

[Johnny Canuck]

I hope PTP doesn't read this whilst flying! He already heard it for 18 holes in a cart.

[markTHEblake]

He already heard it for 18 holes in a cart.

but did he listen?

[TourFit]

OK...I've been out for a couple of hours. The pot of stew seems to have been simmering nicely, however.



We are talking about golf clubs here no? How is the other stuff relevant?

Wishon talks about a system or certification to ensure quality in the production. Is there a reason to doubt that?

He is talking about the quality and mill spec of the steel bar, Yoss. The %'s of the chemical composition & hardness of the steel. It is what happens from there that is important...



A lot of the factories in China that are producing goods for Japanese companies have been tooled by those original Japanese companies.

Quite correct. Most of the Jap/Korean/Taiwanese investment uses tooling & equipment from their respective countries (and often the expertise/research as well). As Tom eluded to, in forging a head it is the TOOLING OF THE DIE that is most important. That is a quality control thing.



you really can't see it?
bwaa haa haa, what do you reckon?

There are standards Dean...the reference was to the steel bars. There is PLENTY of excellent quality Chinese steel mills. They are super specialised in heavy industries like these. They have a massive construction demand for it and they are geared up to produce a lot of steel.



Hey fit. Those nice wedges you sell are Japanese forged. They're nice.

Do you have Chinese forged clubs in your range?

No, I don't. I could get some if I wished, but I inherited the contacts with the Japanese suppliers. They provide an excellent product. For what I do it wouldn't really matter (that's really the point of the whole argument). And yes, I am very happy with the wedges, they are terrific. Thanks for the vote of confidence on them



Dean
You are going beyond a joke. To suggest one country can do pressed metal way better than another country is ridiculous. The only difference may be in the end quality control processes, but I would suggest to you that there a manufacturers in China whose standards are the same as Japan, much as Wishon has just described.

You are correct...in a way. There are top notch Chinese forgings at very tight tolerances and excellent quality. But as I said earlier, it is also the case that the DIFFERENCE between those top notch companies and the lesser ones is bigger in China, so there are more variations on quality overall from the Chinese suppliers as a whole.



By the way 'Fit, where are the Tourfit blades made? I was looking at them the other day and they looked real nice.

They are Japanese Veefore. 1025 carbon steel. They are excellent heads.



TF, Kudos for creating the thread & going to the trouble with your posts.

Thanks. Can of worms, and all that!



He already heard it for 18 holes in a cart.

No, he didn't. He was asking too many questions about his JDM driver head and getting a better shaft fit for it...

[markTHEblake]

I heard that there used to be a steel works or foundry somewhere around Bendigo that made most of the heads eventually manufactured by several the leading golf clubs in USA (but in Mexico actually) I cant recall as to what stage, whether it was just the rectangular blocks or the raw forged heads, but they were considered one of the best in the world at it. That was in the 90's not sure if they still do it.

Doesn't matter where the steel is from, as Mr Wishon points out, but there is obviously varying degrees in the finish and the aesthetics.

[matty]

Maybe you pay the extra for the knowledge that the end product is the best it can be and not what it is capable of being. Miura's are still the best.



I've seen the YouTube videos.

[Webster]

Why are Miuras the best?

[just]

You are correct...in a way. There are top notch Chinese forgings at very tight tolerances and excellent quality. But as I said earlier, it is also the case that the DIFFERENCE between those top notch companies and the lesser ones is bigger in China, so there are more variations on quality overall from the Chinese suppliers as a whole.
You really do like to crap on. At no point did I claim all Chinese manufacturers produce quality stuff, so I am correct, not "in a way", just correct.

Jack
Muiras are made by the "hand of God", I've read it on multiple forums so it must be true.

[Webster]

Jack
Muiras are made by the "hand of God", I've read it on multiple forums so it must be true.

Really? I'm sure the blokes at Honma wouldn't be too happy to read that.

I must dig up that "softest forging" thread again for a chuckle one of these days...

[markTHEblake]

I thought many of the top grade japanes brands have their irons made by Endo,, who have manufacturing plants outside of Japan, Thailand and or China.

[matty]

I told you. It's in all the YouTube vids. ;)

I'm about to purchase a set based on the knowledge it's a top product with a top reputation. There is never a question about the quality of their finished product. That means a lot to me.

That's not to say some Chinese forged heads are not as good. It's just that I know I'll get the end product I want with the Miura's. For that I am willing to pay more. Will it help my game? Maybe a little bit. Will the complete swing change and weekly lesson I'm doing at the moment help? Definitely.

I believe it's the Indian, not the arrow, that leads to good golf. But knowing the arrow is top notch helps upstairs, which they tell me makes up a large portion of golfing success.

[petethepilot]

My take on this.

Miura's are NOT the softest feeling blades I have ever used (The Baby blades in fact feel slightly harsh unless impact is right in the middle). I think Mizuno's have it over Miura for feel by miles. In fact, TF's clubs (I hit some on the range at LKCC) felt considerably softer. Saying that, I use Miura's for the head shape, the lack of offset and the consistency of distance control (probably due to the denseness ie small solid head). By virtue of being blades, they are easier to shape than shovels!

Being forged in China would not put me off if the shape/performance was right. What it does effect is the RESALE! JDM gear holds its value greater than other stuff (ie TM, Callaway) although obviously the entry price is considerably higher. Call it the Mercedes Benz effect!!!

If it works, I am happy to pay for it and use it! Hell, I even fly an aircraft that is made in France, Spain and Italy!

Pete

[dean0820]

just so you know, you've all agreed with me in varying ways.
you just don't have enough japan and china specific knowledge to state it as clearly as i did.
chinese products are considerably less reliable than japanese. buy at your own risk.

[TheTrueReview]

... buy at your own risk.

That would be an English paraphrasing of the aeons old maxim Caveat Emptor. Nothing new there. Applies to any product or property for sale

[Pieface]

e·ludeVerb/iˈlo͞od/1. Evade or escape from (a danger, enemy, or pursuer), typically in a skillful or cunning way: "he managed to elude his pursuer".
2. (of an idea or fact) Fail to be grasped or remembered by (someone
al·ludeVerb/əˈlo͞od/1. Suggest or call attention to indirectly; hint at.
2. Mention without discussing at length


I can readily believe that the best Chinese manufacture is up to the Japanese standard.

[Shadesy]

I Honestly couldn't care less about the subject personally...


However it was a very interesting read Tourfit and a great Subject Matter. Thanks for posting!

[just]

just so you know, you've all agreed with me in varying ways.
you just don't have enough japan and china specific knowledge to state it as clearly as i did.
chinese products are considerably less reliable than japanese. buy at your own risk.
So you admit you agree with us. Good to see you finally came to your senses.

[TourFit]

You really do like to crap on.

That may be true...but it's still a bit rich coming from you. You are a Master at it. You are the Mr. Miura of crapping on...:razz:


just so you know, you've all agreed with me in varying ways.
you just don't have enough japan and china specific knowledge to state it as clearly as i did.
chinese products are considerably less reliable than japanese. buy at your own risk.

Oh...OK, Deano-san. You are now the omnipotent one. :-s

[rubin]

The way I read the article/blog, Im inclined to think that his comments are more directed at the major OEM's, i.e Mizuno's flow forged, Bridgestone Precision etc. its not the how, because at the end of the day a forged club is a forged club. It comes down to quality control (of the original materials as well as the accuracy and consistency in the process). Just because it is a japanese brand, doesnt make it better.

I can see what deano is saying - to a point. There are indeed some products that a Japanese brand is the leader, but they are not the leader because they are japanese. If you consider the smaller ones like Miura, or Epon for example, they make qaulity products, because of very strict quality control from start (with the material choice) through to the end. The fact that they are Japanese is secondary.

Unfortunately deano, you kind of killed your argument with the point that he doesn't know much on international business. if you look at his history with some of the major players in the industry - he's got the Midas touch.

just my 2 cents.

[just]

That may be true...but it's still a bit rich coming from you. You are a Master at it. You are the Mr. Miura of crapping on...:razz:
Oh really? Let's see 6100 posts in 5.5 years versus 5250 posts in under 3 years. Hmmmmm:-k

[MegaWatty]

Oh really? Let's see 6100 posts in 5.5 years versus 5250 posts in under 3 years. Hmmmmm:-k

:-"

[3oneday]

These bought yet ?

[Captain Nemo]

Ill take 2!:)

[virge666]

Jap clubs just look better - and no tacky bits of plastic attached to them.

[dean0820]

That would be an English paraphrasing of the aeons old maxim Caveat Emptor. Nothing new there. Applies to any product or property for sale

bwaa haa haaa! are you really gonna try teaching an English teacher the entomology of idioms?
you might wanna think about WHY it was used, not make half arsed comments about how "new" it is.

[Webster]

I thought you'd be a Japanese teacher deano...

[petethepilot]

He's both....and a good bloke from personal experience. I also know he lived in Japan for many years!

Pete

BTW Epon irons feel the best IMHO but I don't like the head shape!

[Peter]

Jack, with an attitude like that he had to be a teacher of some kind.

[idgolfguy]

I just know when I lived in Japan, you would pay a premium and get quality. No question, no disappointment.

I have not had that experience anywhere else. If stuff is made elsewhere and licensed by Japanese company, I can expect the quality to be the same

[Webster]

Jack, with an attitude like that he had to be a teacher of some kind.

Go easy on him Peter, he's probably on holidays.

[3oneday]

Toppies are pure too 8)

[Peter]

Go easy on him Peter, he's probably on holidays.
:lol:

That's a very good guess!

[markTHEblake]

chinese products are considerably less reliable than japanese. buy at your own risk.

which Chinese products are considerably less reliable?

[Peter]

which Chinese products are considerably less reliable?
The steel used to build the western grandstand at WIN Stadium?

[just]

Surely that was home grown Illawarra Steel?

[MegaWatty]

Surely that was home grown Illawarra Steel?<br />
<br />

Chinese bolts.

[Peter]

http://www.illawarramercury.com.au/news/local/news/general/western-grandstand-no-help-for-bluescope/2269647.aspx

[just]

I heard they Miura bolts, soft as butter.

[LarryLong]

This argument is a bit like buying your apples from the supermarket because they are always the same size and shape. Supermarkets have fantastic quality control.

[petethepilot]

which Chinese products are considerably less reliable?

Their Pilots!!!!!

[rubin]

which Chinese products are considerably less reliable?

Their cars.

[MegaWatty]

Their cars.<br />
<br />

Really? Which ones?

Genuine q.

[Shadesy]

Their Pilots!!!!!

A lot of them are trained in Perth??

[petethepilot]

'Trained' is an interesting somewhat open-ended statement!

[Shadesy]

Well that says more for Australian instructors and the CASA syllabus and requirements ;-)

[rubin]

Really? Which ones?

Genuine q.

Jeely or however it's spelt has just had their second model recall due to safety features. I also know that in terms of insurance premiums they cost more for the simple fact that they dont the same safety ratings.

The other one in aus - great wall are a little better but not by much.

[TourFit]

Oh dear, in typical fashion this has gotten outta hand.

Just...didn't you see the 'giggle' smilie at the end of my post? Chill out mate, it's all in good fun. And the number count REALLY is irrelevant. (But then again Yoss HAS posted a helluva lot more than me...and he does crap on with literally no useful information at all)

[Veefore]

Jeely or however it's spelt has just had their second model recall due to safety features. The other one in aus - great wall are a little better but not by much.

Only a few dozen more to match Mercedes and the rest of the car making world then. :)

It wasn't long ago that Landrover (by far) and Mercedes topped the list of most warranty repair claims for new cars sold in Australia. In the late 90's the top three for lowest number of warranty claims were Honda, Hyundai and Toyota (according to an MTA publication at the time).

[rubin]

Only a few dozen more to match Mercedes and the rest of the car making world then. :)

It wasn't long ago that Landrover (by far) and Mercedes topped the list of most warranty repair claims for new cars sold in Australia. In the late 90's the top three for lowest number of warranty claims were Honda, Hyundai and Toyota (according to an MTA publication at the time).

True, but you compare the 2 manufacturers for history and number of models in the current line-up. Secondly, the Jeely recall was the entire model, not just a select few, and it was for safety features.

[dean0820]

jack, pete, etc. > lovely work lads, you had me cracking up.
not on holidays until next week i'm afraid :)

[Webster]

dean0820, who makes the worst Japanese forgings you have seen?

[dean0820]

dean0820, who makes the worst Japanese forgings you have seen?

haven't seen a bad one yet ;)

[Webster]

Of those you have seen, please rank them in order from best to worst.

[petethepilot]

I can't comment on the quality of the steel, but some of the Jap companies make some weird looking stuff! Also Jack, don't trust the shaft flexes!! S means R in Oz!

Pete

[Webster]

I though R meant L ?

[Johnny Canuck]

Jeely or however it's spelt has just had their second model recall due to safety features. I also know that in terms of insurance premiums they cost more for the simple fact that they dont the same safety ratings.<br />
<br />
The other one in aus - great wall are a little better but not by much.

I think you are getting Geely confused with Chery, who just had their second recall.

These Chinese vehicles are designed as a cheaper alternative. The safety ratings are lower, but that does not mean the overall vehicle is crap. That remains to be seen.

You would never catch Toyota recalling over 9 million vehicles.

[TourFit]

The Toyotas are forged in Japan...the Chery's are made in China...someone please email Tom Wishon.

[Steve57]

The Toyotas are forged in Japan...the Chery's are made in China...someone please email Tom Wishon.

:lol:

[rubin]

I think you are getting Geely confused with Chery, who just had their second recall.

These Chinese vehicles are designed as a cheaper alternative. The safety ratings are lower, but that does not mean the overall vehicle is crap. That remains to be seen.

You would never catch Toyota recalling over 9 million vehicles.

U might be right. I didnt read the update completely, just briefly glanced at it. another interesting fact - there are a significant number of insurers who are opting to not insure them as a result of the poor ratings.

[markTHEblake]

Wankers! A car is a machine with thousands of parts. a forged clubhead is a lump of metal. Ridiculous comparison, and its all that pilots fault for going off topic.

[Scifisicko]

Based on the title and first paragraph (zzzzzz), there is no way a guy who sells clubs that are forged in china is going to argue anything different. London to a brick this opinion piece was written as a marketing initiative to counter the widely held perspective that forging houses who have been making Samurai swords for the last 500 years, are better at it than a bunch of Chinese Johny Come Lately's who not surprisingly can forge for a hell of a lot less $$$

[just]

Bwahahaha, this comedy routine is getting better.

[Yossarian]

that is gold. Cause the Chinese never forged swords.

[Yossarian]

Based on the title and first paragraph (zzzzzz), there is no way a guy who sells clubs that are forged in china is going to argue anything different. London to a brick this opinion piece was written as a marketing initiative to counter the widely held perspective that forging houses who have been making Samurai swords for the last 500 years, are better at it than a bunch of Chinese Johny Come Lately's who not surprisingly can forge for a hell of a lot less $$$

I am so unsure who is trolling in this thread.

[PeteyD]

It is like a troll feeding frenzy.

[Dotty]

that is gold. Cause the Chinese never forged swords.
They used to, but the Samarai manufacturers sent their ninjas over there to close down the factories.

It was during the Nasi Goreng Dynasty.

[Johnny Canuck]

Do the Chinese have a version of Breaking Bad based around forging?

[3oneday]

They used to, but the Samarai manufacturers sent their ninjas over there to close down the factories.

It was during the Nasi Goreng Dynasty.Weren't they overrun with rabbits ?

[TourFit]

Hence the Great Wall...which, BTW, was built much better than the cars.

[rodders]

Hence the Great Wall...which, BTW, was built much better than the cars.

Not really - both look shite close up.

[Veefore]

edit. Hit the reply button and started typing before I realised that I don't care enough to bother.

[MegaWatty]

Wow. This has evolved beautifully!

Didn't Toyota recently have a mass of product recalls?

[rubin]

Wow. This has evolved beautifully!

Didn't Toyota recently have a mass of product recalls?

Yep - depending on which model it was as they all had varying problems.

I did get your point veefore, I just chose to ignore it :D

[Golfnut]

Wow. This has evolved beautifully!

Didn't Toyota recently have a mass of product recalls?

Bad forged pistons?

[Dotty]

Wow. This has evolved beautifully!

Didn't Toyota recently have a mass of product recalls?
No. Like cycling doesn't have a drug problem. It just has more thorough testing.

[Veefore]

I did get your point veefore, I just chose to ignore it <img src="images/smilies/icon_biggrin.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Very Happy" smilieid="3" class="inlineimg" /><br />
<br />
Whatever makes you happy.q

[Yossarian]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GiHdpAVIHgo

[MegaWatty]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GiHdpAVIHgo

Such a great song. One of my all times faves.

[Yossarian]

This thread seems to be divided into wankers and yobs. I'm a ****in yob mate!

[TheTrueReview]

This thread seems to be divided into wankers and yobs. I'm a ****in yob mate!

But you name's not "Davo", "Macca", "Johno", "Thommo", "Dingo" or "Spider". Most yobs couldn't spell Yossarian.

[MegaWatty]

But you name's not "Davo", "Macca", "Johno", "Thommo", "Dingo" or "Spider". Most yobs couldn't spell Yossarian.

Yosso and Shazza.

[idgolfguy]

Yourrrzzzaaahh!