Ross Watson modifications to Bayview

[Jono]

I just saw the plans that Mr Watson and G69 have come up with for my home club, Bayview. I LOVE IT. The man's a genius. I hope they go ahead with the plans, because it may solve a lot of Bayview's problems. The stupid palm trees in the middle of the fairways will go and the dodgy par 5 15th and the dodgy par 4 11th will be turned into good par 4 and par 3 holes respectively. I love the plan to cut down a lot of the trees to make the course more open, and I hope they put some interesting humps and bumps instead. The 18th is going to be a much better finishing hole instead of the dicky little par 4 it is at the moment.

Good job G69. I have new found admiration for Mr Watson. 8)

I was going to move to another club, but after seeing the plans, I just might stay on at Bayview ... :lol:

[markTHEblake]

What we all want to know is which holes dicky designed?

One thing for certain it wont be a dogleg right around a lake.

[Jarro]

he doesn't actually DO anything at RW does he :?

i heard he was just the office boy that goes out for donuts at morning tea time.

Congrats Jono, must be exciting to know you're going to have a change to the course .... 8)

[drunken]

What we all want to know is which holes dicky designed?

One thing for certain it wont be a dogleg right around a lake.

=D> :smt038

[Fishman Dan]

But will he move mountains - or at least install a inclinator to the 3rd tee?

How about seeking approval to update the pokies at the bar?

[3oneday]

I was going to move to another club, but after seeing the plans, I just might stay on at Bayview ...  :lol:hmm, Fox Hills went through renovations, course was a par 64 or something for moths and months. Does the plan include length of time, contingencies for wet weather delays (on the off chance it rains again one day) and the time each "stage" will take ??

I'd investigate these before making assumptions of a great course. Yes (hopefully) it will be worth the wait, but how long is the inconvenience ???

Pete

[markTHEblake]

I went through the same tribulations, i think it took 3 years from go to whoa. Ironicaly it was 69's company that did that job too.

I think the worst was 4 temp greens and a par of 66, but most of the time it was only 2 temps, but boy did the routing change a lot - the pro shop handed out maps every time it changed otherwise we would have got lost.

[3oneday]

I think the worst was 4 temp greens and a par of 66, but most of the time it was only 2 temps, but boy did the routing change a lot - the pro shop handed out maps every time it changed otherwise we would have got lost.I remember when they shortened holes to have more temp greens half way along fairways, so that we could still play 18 holes. Scored my first and only 5 pointer, on a 170 metre par 4 :shock: :shock:

Wasn't really golf after a while.

Pete

[Fishman Dan]

I was going to move to another club, but after seeing the plans, I just might stay on at Bayview ...  :lol:hmm, Fox Hills went through renovations, course was a par 64 or something for moths and months. Does the plan include length of time, contingencies for wet weather delays (on the off chance it rains again one day) and the time each "stage" will take ??

I'd investigate these before making assumptions of a great course. Yes (hopefully) it will be worth the wait, but how long is the inconvenience ???

Pete

Fox's delays to complete the job were/are brought about by the looming threat of the Pokie Tax influence, and a somewhat inadequate board led by the Toongabbie RSL committee.

From what i've seen, Fox would do well to go through with all of the slated changes, but it would possibly result in shutting half the course down for a considerable amount of time?

But the club recently put in the concrete pathways - a permanent fixture, in locations that were likely to have been dug up should the plans proceed.

Go figure.

[3oneday]

Dan, exactly, delays yes, complete stall, should be no. How many things have been blamed upon Pokie taxes, unbelievable, anyway, so as not to thread jack Jono, I assume all these things get put to a vote Jono ?? From my memory of the course, the changes are long overdue, just a matter of coping, playing elsewhere and returning when it is completed. Sounds to me though it could be over 12 months from even starting, having experienced some of the politics involved.

Pete

[markTHEblake]

Scored my first and only 5 pointer, on a 170 metre par 4  

crikey's we didnt have any holes that short. The odd 250-270m par 4 was as short as they got.

I remember a 175m par 3 to a temp green that was a green from hell. It scared the living daylights out of me. Just prayed i would make 4 and get out of there.

IMHO the temp holes should be around minimum length, its just too hard to putt on them, like around 100, 250, and 430.

[Fishman Dan]

The common link is that Fox and Bayview are very similar - they both flood in a heavy dew. Of course, by retaining your membership (ableit at a social level) at least you shouldn't have to pay another 'Nomination fee'.

I'm glad Bayview are losing that 200 mtr par 4, that was just silly. I think that bottom-section of the course has more space than they utilised, but in the end if Par drops by a shot or two for better quality golf, the members will be the winners.

Coming from a bloke who plays on a Par 65, it's all golf  8)

And that sad thing that i touched on in my previous post, is that Fox have gone ahead - plans aside - and put in permanent structures, which a) may affect future decisions to complete the redevelopment, or b) Will turn out to be a waste of money to dig up again should development continue.

[amanda]

Good stuff Jono - Bayview doesn't have a spare golf hole do they? It looks like Ross Watson will be doing our course re-development - but we've stipulated that there must be 18 full holes in play at all times - no temp greens - luckily we have 1 spare hole to put into the rotation.

[Andrew]

Jono & Amanda,

I think both of you will be doing well to have Ross do your work. Delays will come because of club problems more than due to the architect.

Ross is extremely versatile & is building an impressive body in Sydney, which I'm sure both your courses will be included in, in the future.

Of course, it's all due to brilliant CAD work :roll:

[terryand]

Way to go coffee and donut TART

Terry.

[Fishman Dan]

Fish..scary stuff...I think we did suggest an inclinator on the way to the 4th tee.

Very clever targeting the 30-40 year old patrons. Perhaps a little portly, pretty good golfer - play with a gentle fade. The old farts (and Jono) have their powered buggies, older people have carts.

[Jono]

Had a talk with the club pro about the proposed changes. He thinks they are great and is all for the idea. Unfortunately, the club has already received some 30 letters, mostly from older members, opposing the changes. Something about waste of money, having to play temporary greens, etc. :roll:

If the changes go ahead, it will be done in stages. Probably starting around the clubhouse and working gradually towards the hills. They still have to finalise the sale of the land where the current clubhouse is, which will raise about 8 million dollars. The new clubhouse is going to cost about 2 to 3 million, and the course changes 3 to 4 million. My guess is that it won't be finished until about 2010.

There are few holes at Bayview which "aren't quite right". Par 5 3rd is an example. After a good 240 meter drive, you have to hit a PW to the corner of the dogleg and then an 8 iron into the green. So most people opt for 3 iron off the tee. The new 3rd will be a Par 4 with the tees brought right up so you hit a good drive to the corner of the dogleg. Another example of a dodgy hole is the 220 meter uphill Par 4 11th. The club champ gets on with his 3 iron. I've driven it a few times both with the driver and the 3W depending on wind conditions. It's a par 3 and a half at best. Again, the tees will be brought forwards to turn it into a par 3. So all the dodgy holes will be turned into good solid holes, and there are a couple of nice surprises as well. eg. 9th which will be turned into a par 5 with water in front of the green, making you decide whether to lay up or go for the green with your 2nd.

Anyway, next time we have an Ozgolf day at Bayview, you can have a look at the proposed changes. I think most would agree that it's a huge improvement.

[Andrew]

Jono,

All clubs that consider major changes receive complaints from members, mostly of whom are resistant to change. If the changes are for the benefit of the course & club, then whethering a few complaints is worth it.

[marcel]

 Unfortunately, the club has already received some 30 letters, mostly from older members, opposing the changes.

Invariably the case, older members aren't going to get value when you consider the length of the disruption and the time they've got left playing golf compared to younger members, somewhat selfish but understandable.

FWIW, this is a stance I will adopt for any changes my course proposes after about 2025.

[Andrew]

FWIW, this is a stance I will adopt for any changes my course proposes after about 2025.


Surely, 35 is much too young to start complaining. :lol: Of course, you are an extremely mature 15 year old. :wink:

[goughy]

I don't have time to post now, but will tonight. My course (city gc toowoomba) has been undergoing changes by ross watson for a few years now (and many years to come). I'll post about our club and some members opinions etc tonight.

[amanda]

Jono - $2-3m for a new clubhouse is damn cheap! Especially if you're building it in a different spot. Perhaps they haven't factored in hidden costs like building the appropriate electricity substations etc - that was about $800k on our plan and we're looking at a $4-5m clubhouse.

[markTHEblake]

you dont have to worry about a few old blokes resistance to change.    Rarely does a golf club's constitution require a stronger majority than 2/3's to pass a motion like this.

Chances are the old blokes will form a little voting group to make sure their objection is maximised.  So all you gotta do is make sure that 100% of members turn up to the Special General Meeting and you cant lose.

In 1983, Horton Park received an offer from a developer to build a 18 hole Peter Thomson course, for the princely sum of $1.   Most of what you see at HP now would have been a massive lake with two 9 hole loops around each side of it, and it looked to be a spectacular design.

It was put to the vote, and it fell 1 vote short of the required 2/3's majority.  And you guessed it.  There was a very large number of old people there, who I had never seen at the golf club before - and I had been playing every day for 3 years.

Dont be surprised if the same thing happens at your joint if you dont rally your younger members.

[miro]

Jono - $2-3m for a new clubhouse is damn cheap!  Especially if you're building it in a different spot.  Perhaps they haven't factored in hidden costs like building the appropriate electricity substations etc - that was about $800k on our plan and we're looking at a $4-5m clubhouse.

Amanda,

$4- $5m is a lot of freight for a building which would be unlikely to exceed 1,000 sqm. $800k is a lot of freight for an electricity sub station. As with many "club" based projects often professional advice is not obtained (i.e. the board or sub committee make decisions). I am not saying that is definitely the case in your club BUT I can assure you that unless something is extremely unusual in the design or ground for your clubhouse that this is a very high estimate.

FYI the cost PSM of residential construction inclusive of all costs other than land is around $2,000 psm (mid range stuff with no lifts). Residential should be more expensive than a clubhouse given the abundance of bathrooms / kitchens etc included. Your clubhouse at something like $4,000 - $5,000 psm (assuming 1000 sqm) seems way over the top.

Jono's number seems realistic.

[amanda]

Hi Miro

The $4-5m figure includes new electricity substation, 2 storey clubhouse - with large bar/loung area, function room for approx 200 ppl, large locker facilities, cart sheds, pro shop; swimming pool; 2 tennis courts; creche; gym; 250 space car park.

I think it may be the swimming pool and tennis courts that has pushed up our cost. But were were originally looking at $3-3.5m for the clubhouse - build in the old "sandstone" style.

The costing came from the architect (Paynter and Dixon I think it was) who said they used a registered quantity surveyor.

[BrisVegas]

Interesting how Brookwater managed to blow 6 million to build their clubhouse NOT including swimming pool; 2 tennis courts; creche; gym;

There's not even a decent member's lounge which is separate to the wedding function area. The lockers are plush though... :roll: The pool, tennis courts, creche, gym etc will be built adjacent to the clubhouse shortly, but run by the community body corporate on a pay per use basis. Needless to say, the members aren't happy with the value for money they're not getting.

[miro]

Amanda,

That explains much of it then.

Just as a matter of interest where is the club getting the sasy $8 - $10m you look like you need (clubhouse and course) as you are not at the most affluent club in Sydney. Or is that a current stumbling block?

[amanda]

Miro - we have $3m-ish in the bank from a previous deal with Boral. This is sufficient to build a basic clubhouse (or so they say).

Boral is releasing land for 950 houses adjacent to the course (the old quarry) and as part of their requirements to build community facilities, they have to supply a community pool, tennis courts, meeting hall etc. They approached NB to manage these facilities for them - so they will be meeting the cost of these additional items.

The Board's key mission is to not create long-term debts for the club - so apparently the plan requires the club to borrow very little money and does not require a special levy of any sort by members.

There don't seem to be any stumbling blocks at this point except for the very slow DA process via Liverpool Council. The Council hasn't even approved the master plan for the Boral housing estate yet (called Georges Fair I believe).

The housing people are also going to purchase some 6-day memberships (I think around the 100-200 mark) including paying the joining fee for sale with house/land packages.