Cutting Down Putters

[Outcast]

Okay, I know this is a contraversial question with lots of thoughts and opinions but, I would like those in a position of knowledge (particularly the clubfitters among you) to read my post fully and then provide a considered answer to the questions I actually ask at the end.

I know that Scotty Cameron subscribes to the belief that for every inch removed from a putter in length 10g should be added to the head. Hence his putters have variable head weights dependant upon length. I actually have no problem with this theory and subscribe to it myself however, I note that Ping apparently don't agree because in a question asked in another forum, Ping's response to an email was they use exactly the same putter head (in a given range) no matter the length with no additional weight added.

So, what's my question, well bear with me a little longer if you could: Putting is singularly the worst part of my game! Of late I have been reading alot about putting fundamentals and trying to get back to basics. In addition, I read a lot on ensuring the putter fits you the person and your puttiing stroke. Happy with my selection of putters for stroke type, becoming less happy about length in relation to me.

Ideally, I would get personally fit for my putter but, can't really access someone with the kit and knowledge locally. So, went to the Ping and Callaway websites, plugged my various body measurements in and arrived at 33.75 inches...

So, went to the practice green today with one of my 35" putters, basic drills (gate drill, two ball drill, etc..) and being careful to set putter up on its correct lie angle, eyes over ball, etc... I gripped down on my putter and, it seemed much better in terms of setup, eyes over ball, stroke feel, consistency & ultimately results albeit on a practice green.

So here comes my question: If chopping 1.25" off a putter changes it's overall weight characteristics (and I'm happy it does) would not gripping down 1.25" effectively do the same thing as you have now changed the putter heads fulcrum??

Part Two of the question: If part one of my question is true and if the putter still feels good despite the weight characteristic change and my putting results are good, then would actually removing the 1.25" of extra shaft material be a good idea??

I know there will be many opinions on this, I encourage you to give me your honest views but, please be prepared for dumb questions in response. I already have two very different opinions from two of our club pros but, want to gather as many opinions as possible to assist me in reaching a well researched, thought out and considered decision that I might not regret.

Cheers

[Captain Nemo]

Outcast, where/are you using the Del Mar?
Im of the belief of cutting it down and getting the headweight to how you feel purely so that you grip it in the same spot all the time.
ie 33" @ 350/360 gm's?
JAT:smt017

[Outcast]

Happy with that if I cut the Del Mar down I can get heavier weights and restore it's swing weight to that which Scotty designed. However, I would argue also that feel is a personal thing and whilst I know his work is well researched, who says 330g, 340g or whatever weight is ideal for me? So I could cut down the Del Mar and add weight, or not or add more weight in fact to get the feel I want in the length that suits.

The putter I am specifically looking at shortening at the present is not the Del Mar or a Scotty that has adjustable weights, it is an Oil Can Laguna so, if I cut it down, short of adding lead tape or tungsten powder I'm stuck with however it feels...

And there in lies the basis of my question... If in gripping down it still feels good to me then, if I cut it down, it should feel the same as if I only grip down it and as you point out, cutting it down will assist me greatly in consistenly gripping it in the same place

Cheers

[rodders]

I have actually cut down most of my putters and I just add weight until it feels good.

Last week I cut a squareback from 34 to 33 and ended up adding an extra 27 grams as that is what suited me. (it already had two 15gm weights).

I'm 6ft tall but I just prefer the 33inch and love the feel of the heavier weights.

[reg]

I'm 6ft 3in and use a 32in squareback, best thing I ever did cutting it down. Bought the 33in with the 20g weights then cut it another inch, put 2 layers of thick 1in wide lead tape on the sole to add weight and put a light weight grip on.

With a 35in putter my elbows would always get caught bumping into my ribs, now my arms are free.

[IanO]

Why not pull the Scotty shaft and replace it with another (cheap) shaft and cut down the non-Scotty shaft to try it out? That way you can always change your mind and go back to the original length.

PS. I swapped the shafts in the mid-slant so could send you a shaft back

[Outcast]

Why not pull the Scotty shaft and replace it with another (cheap) shaft and cut down the non-Scotty shaft to try it out? That way you can always change your mind and go back to the original length.

PS. I swapped the shafts in the mid-slant so could send you a shaft back

Thanks Ian, I must admit I didn't really think of that option and frankly it's really obvious (Doh!). Thankyou for the offer of sending the other shaft back but, I never actually took a shine to those shafts. In theory they sound great, in practice I found them to be dead in feel and it just didn't work for me. So, thanks for the offer but, please don't trouble yourself with sending it back.

Thankyou to everyone else so far and it seems the consensus is to shorten it and then add weight as necessary to gain / regain the feel that I like. So have i got this right and if so, if the shortened putter with no weight added feels right is it fair to say that for me it would then be unneccessary to add any more weight?

Also, I note there is a couple of ways to add the weight back if so desired; one option is the weights in putters like the Del Mar & Studio Selects, another is lead tape and another is Tungsten powder; where interchangeable weights is not an option and perhaps the look of the putter is of concern; how useful is Tungsten powder as a method for adding weight at the bottom of the shaft?

Last question for this post; how did you all determine how much weight to add back for you? Did you do it using SC concept of 10g back on for every inch of length removed or did you simply do it by experimentation and feel?

[Veefore]

I think I am a pretty decent putter and I always cut my putters down. Then IF I feel that it needs some weight, I'll add some. I don't really think that there is a "correct" weight for putters anyway. They weighed what they weighed in the beginning because that's what that size lump of metal ends up at. Not because there was any particular scientific or other reason for it. And people just got used to that "feel".

Chop it down if you want but it will definitely feel different than if you just grip it down. Gripping down means it has the same overall weight but a lighter swing weight. Cutting it will give a slightly heavier swingweight (than gripping down) but a lighter overall weight.

[IanO]

you can also get lead plugs of different weights that you put in the end of the shaft. That way it is invisible.

Work out the right weight by using lead tape and then pull the shaft put in the lead plug and re-glue the shaft.

[Captain Nemo]

Happy with that if I cut the Del Mar down I can get heavier weights and restore it's swing weight to that which Scotty designed. However, I would argue also that feel is a personal thing and whilst I know his work is well researched, who says 330g, 340g or whatever weight is ideal for me? So I could cut down the Del Mar and add weight, or not or add more weight in fact to get the feel I want in the length that suits.

The putter I am specifically looking at shortening at the present is not the Del Mar or a Scotty that has adjustable weights, it is an Oil Can Laguna so, if I cut it down, short of adding lead tape or tungsten powder I'm stuck with however it feels...

And there in lies the basis of my question... If in gripping down it still feels good to me then, if I cut it down, it should feel the same as if I only grip down it and as you point out, cutting it down will assist me greatly in consistenly gripping it in the same place

Cheers

Thats the beauty of the Select line and is prob what Scotty intended to do.
Id guess most tour pro's have lengths of varying degree's, and remember you can get 25 and 30gm weights!

[Dotty]

I experimented with a cut down (to 33") and weighted up a Ping Anser. Liked it so much, that it was replaced with a 375g Scotty belly putter that was cut down to 33" with great success.

During the autumn cored greens, I went back to the Anser (less the extra lead) and now prefer the lighter weight.

Currently, using a 340g Rife anser clone cutdown to 34".

[Outcast]

I think I am a pretty decent putter and I always cut my putters down. Then IF I feel that it needs some weight, I'll add some. I don't really think that there is a "correct" weight for putters anyway. They weighed what they weighed in the beginning because that's what that size lump of metal ends up at. Not because there was any particular scientific or other reason for it. And people just got used to that "feel".

Chop it down if you want but it will definitely feel different than if you just grip it down. Gripping down means it has the same overall weight but a lighter swing weight. Cutting it will give a slightly heavier swingweight (than gripping down) but a lighter overall weight.

Thanks Veefore, all that you have said coincides perfectly with my line of thought (so of course I like what you have said) but, validates in my mind that I'm not a moron (on this issue) and it really is going to be a bit of a trial and error process to see what feels good for me.

Thankyou to the others on weighting methods and advice on how to experiment with weight before adding a shaft plug, some of it I had thought of, some of it I hadn't so, its all been very helpful. Still happy to hear more opinions though but, so far, I'm heading further down the 'I'll cut them down path'

I'm about to play in our yearly 54 hole tournament... I have two putters to take to the practice green tomorrow before I play. The Laguna at 35" that I used today and gripped down to make it sort of a 33.5" putter and a Yes Sophia that is 34" and will only require a very slight grip down to produce the effect. I'm gonna try both and then pick one to use for the tournament; I will then continue my thoughts (after the tournament ends) and do a little experimenting. The only thing I dislike with the Sophia though is no sight line, only a dot... I've fixed it temporarily by using a set square and a permanent marker but, may in time have someone mill a line on the top..

The plan is to pick the putter tomorrow morning, remember basic putting fundamentals and get on with it; no more thoughts on the subject until after the tournament

[Veefore]

I "milled" the sight line into my hand made custom putter with a hacksaw. You just have to be really careful and go very slowly. Also, put masking tape down first and draw the line on it to follow. This gives the teeth of the saw something to bite into so it doesn't slide off sideways and scratch the head. Add a little paintfill and it'll look like it was done by the factory.

[dave1]

Took an inch of a ping zing g2 that was in my shed.
..From 35 to 34 inches

Feels heavier in the head.But putts the same really.Just feels more comfortable

[TheNuclearOne]

Taking an inch off and having the putter feeling heavier in the head is a rarity. I added loads of lead tape until i wa happy with headweight feel again. Couldn't barely feel the head until i weighted it.

[Outcast]

Okay, the consensus is (and I am in full agreement), if you cut it down the head will feel lighter..

Now a final question (perhaps, depending on answers) - does the feeling of the putter when you grip it down 1 - 1.5 inches equate to how the putter will feel if you cut it down 1 - 1.5 inches?

[Captain Nemo]

I have heavier Select weights!!!!!
Spare set of 20's, in stock red!

[Outcast]

I have heavier Select weights!!!!!
Spare set of 20's, in stock red!

Thanks mate, I got that, several times... I haven't made the decision to cut down anything yet; particularly not the Del Mar or my Fast Back:lol:

But, since you are persistent and have looked after me in the past; how much are the weights & do you stock the tool to fit them? How much is the tool?

Cheers

Outcast

[nadg63]

Wilson Staff were doing this yonks ago with their range of Kirk Currie putters - came supplied with 3 different sole weights and combi weights for the grip end you could use in whatever configuration; I still use my KC-1, only club not to have been given the flick over the years!

[TourFit]

OK...here goes.

Cutting down a putter is neither good OR bad. Losing headweight and a heavier feel is generally what happens, but again that is not necessarily bad. It is only bad if the result is MORE PUTTS or poorly struck putts. Swingweight's biggest contribution is to feel and to quality of ballstriking...I like the idea of another putter shaft, gripped up at the new, shorter experimental length. Try it and see...add lead tape to get it heavier if needed (and add it bit by bit, hitting putts in between). I don't much like tungsten powder or lead tip weights in putters much, especially in long hosels (such as plumbers necks).

I cut down a Ping Anser Redwood and lost HEAPS of headweight...it feels really light. I can still putt with it fine...and on fast greens I love it!

[Outcast]

Thanks Fit & to all the others for thoughts. Advice & suggestions.

I'm playing a 34" fastback today, my old staple that prob spends the most time in the bag. I will get hold of a cheap shaft & lead tape & experiment & see how that goes. Will prob try different weights (tape initially) on the fast back too.

If all good then I'll look at 'customising' all my putters. If not I'll see if the Willows does putter fitting using SAMs putt lab a d of course I will put significant effort into drills on the practice green. I'm gonna fix my putting no matter what coz it's costing me 4 shots on a good day & unto 10 on a bad day.

Cheers Outcast

[rodders]

I have heavier Select weights!!!!!
Spare set of 20's, in stock red!

Titleist, if you're interested in letting those weights go, let me know.

Cheers.

[Sydney Hacker]

Stupid question Outcast, but have you had a putting lesson at all?

[Outcast]

Stupid question Outcast, but have you had a putting lesson at all?

Not a stupid question at all SH; the answer is yes I had one a few months back, was told that fundamentally my putting stroke was sound and given some drills to practice distance control. The thing is my putting stroke is still reasonably sound and generally my distance control is pretty good but, and this is a big but, sometimes I leave 40 footers, 20 feet short or 15 feet beyond and I don't know where it comes from and some times I miss 5 - 10 footers, only just but, because I pushed or pulled the putter offline (or left the face open or closed at impact) and these occurances are random and dynamic and can appear anywhere in a round. The only consistent thing is that they will appear enough times in a round to be absolutely annoying and somewhat score demolishing...

Last Weekend: 92 / 83 with 40 putts
Yesterday: 84 / 75 with 36 putts
Today: 82 / 72 with 32 putts

32 is my about my consistent highest standard, not greedy but, would like that to come down to below 30; 34 is my average and would like to see that down around 30 - 31; 38 (and now 40) is my average worst but, need to get the damage down to 36; If I can do that then I should be able to get down to a hcp of around 4 or 5 (min) and stay there... I don't think I need a lesson as such, just need to get consistency in the stroke, tempo and face angle at impact which I know takes practice. As I get stuck into that practice, I just wanna make sure I am at least starting with the right size and type of tool

[Daves]

May sound like a silly question, but do you wear Sunnies when you putt OC?

[Outcast]

Daves,

no but, I do wear multi focal vision correcting glasses

[Daves]

May sound like a silly question, but do you wear Sunnies when you putt OC?


Daves,

no but, I do wear multi focal vision correcting glasses

OK. I have found recently that my distant control and ability to read breaks correctly have improved significantly by removing my Sunnies whilst I putt. I have not yet pinpointed why i.e. whether it was the light or some visual distortion but it has made a noticeable difference. And that difference breeds confidence which helps you step up to the next level.

[Outcast]

OK. I have found recently that my distant control and ability to read breaks correctly have improved significantly by removing my Sunnies whilst I putt. I have not yet pinpointed why i.e. whether it was the light or some visual distortion but it has made a noticeable difference. And that difference breeds confidence which helps you step up to the next level.

Well, my vision is not actually that bad, the lower part of my glasses are really for reading and the top part is so I can see clearly at long range (ie: where the hell my ball went at the end of the drive).. I may try removing my glasses to putt as it is quite possible that I am getting some level of distortion particularly at either the crossover point of the two grinds or, in the lower part when standing over the ball. I'll give it a crack tomorrow and see if anything changes.

[IanO]

How did you go in the 54 hole comp?

[Outcast]

Day one average, day two very average front 9, awesome back 9 (even par) last day shite for the four holes before I pulled the pin (db,db, qb, qb, quit before losing the plot completely)

Putting was mixed - 36 day one, 32 day 2 (19/13) no idea day 3 as putting was the least of my problems!

Considering the Boomerang thingymajig before I do anything else. Had a couple of healthy email exchanges with Alex on the subject.

Thanks for asking

[IanO]

I have the Boomerang "thingy" and I find it has really helped me to get a much more consistent stroke. I used to have the issue where I would putt halfway to the hole on one green and then 15' past on the next and not know how it happened. Now my distance control is pretty good and I rarely have more than 3' for my 2nd putt no matter how far away I start out (in fact most of the time it is less than a foot)

[Progolfgear]

If you remove 1" of shaft from the putter, you lose maybe 1 or 2 grams out of the top, so if you add 10 grams to the head, you are increasing the overall (or static) weight of the putter. Of course, if we are speaking strictly of keeping the swingweight to scale, then sure, this might keep it close, but a swingweight is measured @ 90 degrees from verticle, wheras the putter is held only approximately 18 degrees from verticle. Because a putter is held so upright, the effects of swingweight are no-where near as important or noticable.

So when I shorten a putter, I measure the weight of the piece removed from the putter and add that onto the head, this keeps the OVERALL weight the same, the fact that the weight is being put onto the head and not the butt (where the weight was removed) does keep the swingweight close to similar anyway.

[matty]

Personally I'm not convinced about swingweights and shaft lengths being organised into some sort of swingweight formula. The formula Scotty uses, who says it is right?
I cut my TM Spider down to 33" or 32.5". I kept stickytaping small fishing sinkers of varying weights to the top of the putter until it felt right. I then weighed them and ordered the weights to screw in.
I've gone from a shite putter to one that is reasonably confident and scaring the hole a lot more.

[Hawkers2008]

Another option for adding weight is to get yourself a short section of a shaft and glue it inside your putter shaft.

[Outcast]

I have the Boomerang "thingy" and I find it has really helped me to get a much more consistent stroke. I used to have the issue where I would putt halfway to the hole on one green and then 15' past on the next and not know how it happened. Now my distance control is pretty good and I rarely have more than 3' for my 2nd putt no matter how far away I start out (in fact most of the time it is less than a foot)

My putting ability seems pretty random & dynamic; I can go a few holes putting like a demon (or in the case of the 9 holes at even par for 9 holes) but then randomly leave a 30 footer 15ft short or hit a 15 footer, 10 feet too far or, simply miss an easy 3 footer; It's not consistently bad putting or even a consistent miss it's just random moments of shite that are all most guaranteed to happen at some point or points in a round and is very frustrating. I've been following the thread on the Boomerang 'thingy' and I think it may help me significantly with achieving a consistent putting stroke without the acts of randomness.

[Captain Nemo]

Looks like you need the boom!
I'd get the eyeline putting mirror

[Outcast]

Personally I'm not convinced about swingweights and shaft lengths being organised into some sort of swingweight formula. The formula Scotty uses, who says it is right?
I cut my TM Spider down to 33" or 32.5". I kept stickytaping small fishing sinkers of varying weights to the top of the putter until it felt right. I then weighed them and ordered the weights to screw in.
I've gone from a shite putter to one that is reasonably confident and scaring the hole a lot more.

Thanks, I'm not overly convinced of the actual affect of the formula used; I accept the mathematics of what is said and I relate it to using a hammer (not a disimilar act to putting). A hammer is designed to be easiest to use if gripped at a particular spot; the hammer is less effective and feels lighter the further up toward the head you hold it. However, the precise point at which an individual feels comfortable holding that hammer and using it effectively is, an individual thing. Obviously one would not hold it right up close to the head because that would be ineffective but, you may hold the hammer at a slightly different point to me and still find it quite effective.

I think the same is true for a putter and I also note that there is no 'optimum' swing weight for a golf club, it comes down to what suits you best and in the full swing this can be measured to some degree by looking at the effectiveness of your ball striking with differing swingweights, lies, shaft length, etc... ie: custom fitting.

With a putter I would venture that the weight and length is a very personal thing; whilst a putter may come at a particular weight for a particular length, who is to say that length and weight combination is right for you; again, I accept that SC and others do a lot of research and I would say they base their formula on the work they do with professional and other golfers and come up with the most common figures. Whilst that certainly sets a good baseline to work from, it doesn't necessarily make the baseline number correct for a particular individual.

Thankyou for your information and your advice on finding the right weight for me; similar advice was provided with the use of lead tape initially then for those putters where weights can be changed, order new weights accordingly. I can see this is going to take a little trial and error and I have some trains of thoughts about what to use to quantify the success of any trial and error undertaken.

No-one has commented as yet on what I feel is the most important question I have asked; or if they have, I have failed to see the answer and that is: Does gripping down on the uncut putter provide a guide as to what the putter will feel like after it has been cut down without adding any supplementary weight. I think the answer is yes but, would like to hear what others think because I don't know that I am right in this theory

[Hawkers2008]

No-one has commented as yet on what I feel is the most important question I have asked; or if they have, I have failed to see the answer and that is: Does gripping down on the uncut putter provide a guide as to what the putter will feel like after it has been cut down without adding any supplementary weight. I think the answer is yes but, would like to hear what others think because I don't know that I am right in this theory

Gripping down - I think this gives you a good idea of how the lie angle changes and some idea of the weight effect. Depending on how you grip the putter the 'overhang' can get in the road so puttting whilst gripping down might not give you a great idea of how the putter will be cut down.

I think its a matter of trial and error to find the right fit. You can trim a little bit of length off and keep doing that till you get it right. As for adjusting the wight if the head weights are easily adjusted then that will be easy. If you don't have that option I strongly reccomend bunging a bit of old shaft inside the shaft - its easy and cheap to do by trial and error.

[Outcast]

Thanks Hawkers...

I probably implied in previous posts that I knew the answer and, I sort of did or at least suspected I was on the right track. Was looking here to see if I could get some validation of my thought process.

I'm intrigued by your suggestion of placing a bit of old shaft inside the shaft; do you mean placing it in the upper part of the shaft (grip end) or are you saying that you get a piece small enough to push down toward the head end of the shaft. I ask this because in many of the responses the adding weight bit always seems aimed at the head end of the putter so it's not clear to me what adding some extra weight at the grip end will do except of course it replaces the weight lost at that end caused by cutting a bit off.

Cheers

[Hawkers2008]

Yep in the grip end - works a treat. I have a 32 1/2" 2 ball its got from memory about a foot or so of an old shaft glued in at the top end.

You don't need a piece that long but I prefer a bit of extra weight.