dynamically checking lie angles

[Daves]

Scifisicko's recent post inspired me, so I went down to the practice fairway yesterday and hit some pen marked balls to see how my clubs and my swing measured up. I also took the opportunity to check my average club distances and used the distance checks to GPS mark our practice fairways and greens (2), and check on the accuracy of my Zelocity Pure Contact (seemed pretty much spot on). Here are some piccies of the results;

4 iron, only 3/4 shots;

http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt115/Daves_2009/Golf%20stuff/Fouriron2.jpg?t=1311480473

6 iron

http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt115/Daves_2009/Golf%20stuff/Sixiron1.jpg?t=1311480538

7i
http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt115/Daves_2009/Golf%20stuff/Seveniron2.jpg?t=1311480570

8i, sorry about the focus! but not enough to disguise the obligatory Tom Hanks!
http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt115/Daves_2009/Golf%20stuff/Eightiron2.jpg?t=1311480611

52* Wedge - seems to be a tad too flat, which explains the left bias
http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt115/Daves_2009/Golf%20stuff/52Wedge2.jpg?t=1311480674

54* Wedge, photo angle is a bit off but the marks were pretty much vertical
http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt115/Daves_2009/Golf%20stuff/54Wedge2.jpg?t=1311480720

[davepuppies]

Your impact seems more consistent in longer irons than mid/short?

[virge666]

What you are doing there is impact testing. It has nothing to do lie angles


It also tells me you clubs are too heavy

[Captain Nemo]

Tells me F'all but im a chopper!

[MegaWatty]

Why's that, Virge?

[Captain Nemo]

Looks like everything near the toe?

[timah!]

Why's that, Virge?

+2

Inconsistency in contact?

[MegaWatty]

Looks like everything near the toe?

That was what I was thinking.

[virge666]

Why's that, Virge?

The impact pattern is all over the shop.. There is nothing nice about it at all

The large gaps with the heel shots and the pattern towards the toe tells me your upper body is compensating.

[goonie]

If the ball was lined correctly all the clubs look a little flat.

[Daves]

Some comments, good what I was after.


Your impact seems more consistent in longer irons than mid/short?

Looks that way doesn't it. Might have been because of the sequence that I hit them in, the number of ball hits with each club, which was not the same. Also 4i and 6i were not full shots (perhaps less compensation, see Virge's comments), and I was testing distances at the same time, so some hard lashes in amongst them.


What you are doing there is impact testing. It has nothing to do lie angles

It also tells me you clubs are too heavy

Thanks Virge, so this method is no good for checking lie angles?

Heavy clubs?, quite possibly. D4 swingweight, not fitted just where they ended up after being extended 1/2" and fitted with midsize grips.


The impact pattern is all over the shop.. There is nothing nice about it at all

The large gaps with the heel shots and the pattern towards the toe tells me your upper body is compensating.

The spread of the impact patterns surprised me a bit. The AP2s are obviously very forgiving. There would be lots of compensations going on in my swing for sure!


If the ball was lined correctly all the clubs look a little flat.

Yeah, maybe ever so slightly, though Virge seems to think that the impact tells nothing about lie angles?. The 52 Wedge (new club just added to the bag) was the most obvious one.

[Scifisicko]

My original post was making the point that the Modus 3 is an all round sh@t fit for me. I wasnt banging on about lie angles, however i dont entirely agree with Virge. Move your lie angles and the center of contact tends to follow...ill bet you london to a brick that 54* wedge is 2* too flat. Best way to check your angles is to put a strip of masking tape across the sole and hit a few balls of a plastic chopping board. You will get a small hole in the masking tape where you make contact.

[goonie]

Thanks Virge, so this method is no good for checking lie angles?

Yeah, maybe ever so slightly, though Virge seems to think that the impact tells nothing about lie angles?. The 52 Wedge (new club just added to the bag) was the most obvious one.

I don't see why it wouldn't be accurate, as long as your hitting the ball before hitting the ground, taking a normal swing and the face is square, I wouldn't be surprised if it isn't more accurate than sole tape, surely using the grooves is more accurate than trusting that the camber on the sole is spot on?

[virge666]

However i dont entirely agree with Virge. Move your lie angles and the center of contact tends to follow...ill bet you london to a brick that 54* wedge is 2* too flat. Best way to check your angles is to put a strip of masking tape across the sole and hit a few balls of a plastic chopping board. You will get a small hole in the masking tape where you make contact.

Lie angles will never follow contact - and contact will never follow lie angles. They are mutually exclusive as one tests the ability to hit the centre of the face and the other measures the angle of the shaft.

As you say - besy way to test lie angles is with some electrical tape and a lie board. Plastic chopping board is OK - but the extra height of the board will have to be compensated for. about 2 degrees will do it. (every half inch is 2 degrees.)

But if someone came to be with that impact pattern off a handicap of 12 - i would be butchering their clubs to some thing more usable.

[goonie]

Lie angles will never follow contact - and contact will never follow lie angles. They are mutually exclusive as one tests the ability to hit the centre of the face and the other measures the angle of the shaft.

As you say - besy way to test lie angles is with some electrical tape and a lie board. Plastic chopping board is OK - but the extra height of the board will have to be compensated for. about 2 degrees will do it. (every half inch is 2 degrees.)

But if someone came to be with that impact pattern off a handicap of 12 - i would be butchering their clubs to some thing more usable.

I'm sure I've read more than once that if your lies are too flat you can tend to hit towards the toe, and vice versa.

[Scifisicko]

let us know how the lie angle on that 54* turns out...
Virge is right about needing to butcher your irons though. Changing the lie angles isnt going to help hits that are all over the face. Looks like something in your set up suits you about as well as the Modus3's suit me. Wonder what is different about your 6i vs the rest of the set in terms of weight, swing weight and actual shaft flex.

[markTHEblake]

Virge, reading between the lines here i think you may not be aware of what Daves is doing.

He makes a vertical line on the ball and hits one shot, then observes the mark left on clubface. It should be vertical if lie angle is correct.

Gary Tozer does this,, and suggests it over using tape and lieboard for us to do 'at home'. He will also use a birdie ball, make a thin cut with a hacksaw blade and put a.strip of masking tape on the face. No need for the impact decals then.

I can see that Daves spread of contact on the clubface is fairly ordinary, but i do not think that is what he wanted us to look at,though you are not wrong,, something needs fixing! There is no way that Daves is that bad.

Daves. my experience with clubmakers is that they only need to see two or three swings to check the lie angle,is it never changes from swing to swing. so they say.

[just]

Nunchuks fix this?

[virge666]

Nunchuks fix this?

Nice ! :)



Virge, reading between the lines here i think you may not be aware of what Daves is doing.

He makes a vertical line on the ball and hits one shot, then observes the mark left on clubface. It should be vertical if lie angle is correct.

Gary Tozer does this,, and suggests it over using tape and lieboard for us to do 'at home'. He will also use a birdie ball, make a thin cut with a hacksaw blade and put a.strip of masking tape on the face. No need for the impact decals then.


IMHO opinion - it is a retarded way to do it. I would not recommendit to anyone, well . . . for a total spastic so he wouldn’t annoy me .. . maybe.

Electrical tape is less than $2 and you can hit off prettymuch anything from cardboard to the black rubber on the local golf range mat.

You are measuring the difference between 0-3 degrees on an object that squishes against the clubface . . .and you are trying to do it with a hand drawn line ???

[just]

IMHO opinion - it is a retarded way to do it. I would not recommendit to anyone, well . . . for a total spastic so he wouldn't annoy me .. . maybe.

Is this what happened between Tozer and you Blake?:razz:

[vman]

IMHO opinion - it is a retarded way to do it. I would not recommendit to anyone, well . . . for a total spastic so he wouldn’t annoy me .. . maybe.

Electrical tape is less than $2 and you can hit off prettymuch anything from cardboard to the black rubber on the local golf range mat.

You are measuring the difference between 0-3 degrees on an object that squishes against the clubface . . .and you are trying to do it with a hand drawn line.
I agree, Virge. I am not sure how anyone can accurately rest the ball so that the line is absolutely vertical. As little as half a degree off and the test is pointless except maybe as an indication of whether the lie angles are WAYYY too upright or WAYYY too flat. A lie board is a far more accurate indication.

[Courty]

I see your problem, Daves... your clubs are facing the wrong way. ;)

[goonie]

I agree, Virge. I am not sure how anyone can accurately rest the ball so that the line is absolutely vertical. As little as half a degree off and the test is pointless except maybe as an indication of whether the lie angles are WAYYY too upright or WAYYY too flat. A lie board is a far more accurate indication.

Yes a lie board thats not sitting flat or thats bowed or warn, but appears level because of the golf balls dimples, is so much more fool prove, and grass and driving range matts are always perfectly flat and level, and the soles of clubs are always perfectly ground and match up to the grooves. Yeah your right lie boards are always perfect.

[Shadesy]

Electrical tape is less than $2 and you can hit off prettymuch anything from cardboard to the black rubber on the local golf range mat.



Do you just put the tape on the sole then swing so it leaves a mark?

Adlo told me this once, but I am not 100% sure.

[markTHEblake]

.and you are trying to do it with a hand drawn line ???


Nope, i never said that was a test that was precise and to rely on it for lie changes, i did qualify it as a 'do it at home' check and I only mentioned it because that is what i think Daves is doing.

Plus A birdieball lies flat on the mat, and the hacksaw cut is straight, there is no reason why that would not be a reliable test for assessing lie angle.

As for the line drawn on a ball of course its not accurate, and nobody is suggesting making lie changes as a result. Not much different to using tape on the sole as well, if i do that it home i am not going to be able to tell how much the lies are out either, and neither is anyone that is not a clubmaker.

[Scifisicko]

As for the line drawn on a ball of course its not accurate, and nobody is suggesting making lie changes as a result. Not much different to using tape on the sole as well, if i do that it home i am not going to be able to tell how much the lies are out either, and neither is anyone that is not a clubmaker.

If the center of the mark on the sole is half way between the center of the face and the end of the grooved section of the face, you are about 2* out. Not that this does you any good...Anyway, lofts are bendy too and they need checking as well, so its all rather pointless really (unless you are a clubmaker).

[virge666]

Do you just put the tape on the sole then swing so it leaves a mark?

Adlo told me this once, but I am not 100% sure.

Yep... pretty str8 forward



if i do that it home i am not going to be able to tell how much the lies are out either, and neither is anyone that is not a clubmaker.

Blakey, Tape + Ground is just easier. Talc is also good for face impact testing.


If the center of the mark on the sole is half way between the center of the face and the end of the grooved section of the face, you are about 2* out.

Exactly.

[Daves]

Lots more comments, good stuff!


My original post was making the point that the Modus 3 is an all round sh@t fit for me. I wasnt banging on about lie angles, however i dont entirely agree with Virge. Move your lie angles and the center of contact tends to follow...ill bet you london to a brick that 54* wedge is 2* too flat. Best way to check your angles is to put a strip of masking tape across the sole and hit a few balls of a plastic chopping board. You will get a small hole in the masking tape where you make contact.

Sorry, wasn't meaning to say you suggested it for lie angles, but your post got me thinking about how the method could be used. I went searching the net and found a few places where it was suggested as a valid way to check lie angles.


Lie angles will never follow contact - and contact will never follow lie angles. They are mutually exclusive as one tests the ability to hit the centre of the face and the other measures the angle of the shaft.

As you say - besy way to test lie angles is with some electrical tape and a lie board. Plastic chopping board is OK - but the extra height of the board will have to be compensated for. about 2 degrees will do it. (every half inch is 2 degrees.)

But if someone came to be with that impact pattern off a handicap of 12 - i would be butchering their clubs to some thing more usable.


let us know how the lie angle on that 54* turns out...
Virge is right about needing to butcher your irons though. Changing the lie angles isnt going to help hits that are all over the face. Looks like something in your set up suits you about as well as the Modus3's suit me. Wonder what is different about your 6i vs the rest of the set in terms of weight, swing weight and actual shaft flex.

The 54* or the 52*?


Virge, reading between the lines here i think you may not be aware of what Daves is doing.

He makes a vertical line on the ball and hits one shot, then observes the mark left on clubface. It should be vertical if lie angle is correct.

Gary Tozer does this,, and suggests it over using tape and lieboard for us to do 'at home'. He will also use a birdie ball, make a thin cut with a hacksaw blade and put a.strip of masking tape on the face. No need for the impact decals then.

I can see that Daves spread of contact on the clubface is fairly ordinary, but i do not think that is what he wanted us to look at,though you are not wrong,, something needs fixing! There is no way that Daves is that bad.

Daves. my experience with clubmakers is that they only need to see two or three swings to check the lie angle,is it never changes from swing to swing. so they say.


Nice ! :)

IMHO opinion - it is a retarded way to do it. I would not recommendit to anyone, well . . . for a total spastic so he wouldn’t annoy me .. . maybe.

Electrical tape is less than $2 and you can hit off prettymuch anything from cardboard to the black rubber on the local golf range mat.

You are measuring the difference between 0-3 degrees on an object that squishes against the clubface . . .and you are trying to do it with a hand drawn line ???



I agree, Virge. I am not sure how anyone can accurately rest the ball so that the line is absolutely vertical. As little as half a degree off and the test is pointless except maybe as an indication of whether the lie angles are WAYYY too upright or WAYYY too flat. A lie board is a far more accurate indication.


I see your problem, Daves... your clubs are facing the wrong way. ;)

Thanks Einstein;)


Yes a lie board thats not sitting flat or thats bowed or warn, but appears level because of the golf balls dimples, is so much more fool prove, and grass and driving range matts are always perfectly flat and level, and the soles of clubs are always perfectly ground and match up to the grooves. Yeah your right lie boards are always perfect.

A proper lie board is on its way, already ordered in timah!'s Golfworks order along with some impact tape etc. I have tried the electrical tape method before, using it on a bit of floor board, which would be similar to a chopping board I guess. I did wonder how much you would have to allow for the thickness of the board though?. I have been somewhat frustrated with my poor scoring of late, and seem to be struggling a little with my striking, hence the exercise.

I used a proper putter alignment tool to draw the lines on the balls, and did go to a bit of trouble to make sure they were as vertical as possible before I hit each ball. But I didn't use a Set Square of a Protractor so they could have been out half a degree I guess.

First club hit was the 7i without warm up, and the impact marks represent 35 to 40 balls, probably too many in reality. Distance to target was 135m which is my 7i 85% swing distance. I did hit a few at 100% to see how much further they would travel. Next was the 6i, hitting to the same target, so I was gripping down and hitting with a 3/4 swing. Only about 10 balls hit with the 6i. Then about 10 balls each with the 52*, and then the 54* wedge. Then 8i and a lot of balls, perhaps 35/40 again. 4i was last and only about 10 balls again. Again to same target so gripped down and about 60% swing.

I played a practice round this afternoon with some of your comments rattling around in the head. My irons SW mostly at D4 except the PW which was only D2, but had been lead taped to take to up to D4. The PW used to be my best club, but I hadn't hit a really good full shot with it for ages.

I started out OK, but again ordinary scoring with tap in bogeys on the first 2 holes. Made a good up and down on the 3rd for par, then a 2 putt par on the 4th. Another good 2 putt par on the 5th with a really good PW to 5 feet. That got me thinking, I had gripped down on it and just swung easy and it was pure. So from then on I gripped down probably a good 3/4" to an 1" on all my shots and started to really pure my irons again. Ended up with 5 birdies, 7 pars and 6 bogies for a 1 over 73. Several wedge shots to inside 6". So your collective comments have been very helpful, at least in the short term, many thanks. Looking forward to catching up with Gary T soon for a full check up.

[Scifisicko]

The one with all the pink marks on the toe (nice color). You need to hit a ball, so floor boards are probably going to upset the plasterer. Its not that difficult to get the chopping/lie board at the same level as your feet. Put the lie board on a phone book and swing while wearing roller skates.

[Daves]

The one with all the pink marks on the toe (nice color). You need to hit a ball, so floor boards are probably going to upset the plasterer. Its not that difficult to get the chopping/lie board at the same level as your feet. Put the lie board on a phone book and swing while wearing roller skates.

It was a red marker pen, but I will let you have your little fantasy!;) That is the 54* Vokey.

It was a single unattached piece of floor board, used outside without ball.

Rollerskates, now that is just sicko!:lol:

[vman]

Yeah your right lie boards are always perfect.
Goonie, I've gone back and re-read my post. I fail to see the word 'perfect' anywhere. Maybe you should read it more carefully before making silly comments. There are a few reasons why lie boards are 'BETTER' than the method shown but it would be a waste of my time trying to enlighten you as you clearly would not comprehend the post. But, if you prefer, continue to happily draw on your balls and shoot all over the place.

BTW, my lie board is set up flat, is not bowed or worn and is as level as humanly possible.

[goonie]

Goonie, I've gone back and re-read my post. I fail to see the word 'perfect' anywhere. Maybe you should read it more carefully before making silly comments. There are a few reasons why lie boards are 'BETTER' than the method shown but it would be a waste of my time trying to enlighten you as you clearly would not comprehend the post. But, if you prefer, continue to happily draw on your balls and shoot all over the place.

BTW, my lie board is set up flat, is not bowed or worn and is as level as humanly possible.

I don't think it's worth me trying to explain it to you, it will be pointless because you have made it clear that you use the lie board way and that is the only way for you, I also use the lie board method, but I am happy to look at other methods, and I don't see why this way should be any less accurate if setup correctly, just slower, and as Garry from GCI told me if you don't hit the ball/swing correctly on a lie board the readings will be out anyway.

How would you check the lie angle on woods? Including a driver someone hits off a high tee?

Note - I meant to include one of Virges posts in my previous post aswell but could not multi quote on my phone.

[Daves]

So it is a valid method!

http://www.golfwrx.com/277293/the-best-way-to-fit-lie-angle/

[markTHEblake]

I can understand that this method may not be perfect, but I think the lie board can't be perfect either, because the visual impact in the sole is still blurry.

[Toolish]

Seems valid. Only issue would be ensuring the line is set up right each time.