Damn Lies

[Daves]

Currently looking at a set of irons that I would have to get lengthened (and probably soft stepped) if I decided to buy them.

What is the effect of lengthening the shafts by say 1/2"?, would that flatten the lie by a noticeable amount? The irons are already 1* degree flat I believe. My current irons were standard lie, but have also been lengthen by 1/2", so I assume they are not quite std lie anymore!!. I think I have read somewhere that 1/2" change in shaft length would change the lie by approx 1*?? Am I on the right track?

[PShaw]

I think I have read somewhere that 1/2" change in shaft length would change the lie by approx 1*?? Am I on the right track?

Every half in longer increases the lie by 1 degree and the opposite for shortening. You are on the right track

[markTHEblake]

My clubmaking notes that i gathered from reading the Maltby Forums are;
what Shawy said
1/2" in length is 3 swingweight points.
2 degrees lie angle is 1 swingweight point (flatter increases)
1" in length is between 1 and 1.5 flex categories

[Ferrins]

What irons Dave?

[Daves]

What irons Dave?

710 AP2s. My current AP2s are the original model, so just looking at a potential model update. Version 3 model is also due out shortly I think

[Daves]

Every half in longer increases the lie by 1 degree and the opposite for shortening. You are on the right track


My clubmaking notes that i gathered from reading the Maltby Forums are;
what Shawy said
1/2" in length is 3 swingweight points.
2 degrees lie angle is 1 swingweight point (flatter increases)
1" in length is between 1 and 1.5 flex categories

Thanks guys. Hadn't really thought about the swingweight changes Blakey, but will add it to the list of things to check.

Cheers

Dave

[virge666]

The weight is what kills you.

I have two sets of clubs... 710 AP2 +1" with S300 and a set of MP33 with S300 a touch over standard.

the comparisons are obvious when swinging them. the AP2 require much more effort on the downswing to get the clubhead moving. The flight is higher with a less boring flight and the feel is dead. The MP33 is a lower flight - crisper through impact and feels a shitload better.

The AP2's hit the ball further and shorter and then further and then stupidly shorter. Flyer lies are exagerrated way more with AP2. I hit the 8 iron 164m last week into the 2nd at Bayview. (That is 20m longer than normal.) on the next shot on the 6th - the 8 iron went 130m cause i caught it heavy.

The problem is with the longer irons - you dont get the center contact as much, so your ball flight is all over the place, you get stupid high and then flat and left and then you start steering the club and then you shoot 80.

The simple answer is if you are a good player in the low singles - then do whatever you like - you know what you want and all is good. But if you are on anything above 8 or 9 - your are just going to ruin your golf swing with anything longer than +1/2". You aren't good enough to control your ball flight and you are just going to have days of shooting 10-12 over your handicap and whinging about your chipping because you didn't hit any greens.

Weight kills feel, which kills control, which kills your ability to hit the same yardage, which stops you from playing better.

And I am finally getting around to chopping the AP2's down to a proper length before they end up on here or on eBay.

[Daves]

The weight is what kills you.

I have two sets of clubs... 710 AP2 +1" with S300 and a set of MP33 with S300 a touch over standard.

the comparisons are obvious when swinging them. the AP2 require much more effort on the downswing to get the clubhead moving. The flight is higher with a less boring flight and the feel is dead. The MP33 is a lower flight - crisper through impact and feels a shitload better.

The AP2's hit the ball further and shorter and then further and then stupidly shorter. Flyer lies are exagerrated way more with AP2. I hit the 8 iron 164m last week into the 2nd at Bayview. (That is 20m longer than normal.) on the next shot on the 6th - the 8 iron went 130m cause i caught it heavy.

The problem is with the longer irons - you dont get the center contact as much, so your ball flight is all over the place, you get stupid high and then flat and left and then you start steering the club and then you shoot 80.

The simple answer is if you are a good player in the low singles - then do whatever you like - you know what you want and all is good. But if you are on anything above 8 or 9 - your are just going to ruin your golf swing with anything longer than +1/2". You aren't good enough to control your ball flight and you are just going to have days of shooting 10-12 over your handicap and whinging about your chipping because you didn't hit any greens.

Weight kills feel, which kills control, which kills your ability to hit the same yardage, which stops you from playing better.

And I am finally getting around to chopping the AP2's down to a proper length before they end up on here or on eBay.

Interesting stuff Virge. Is it the ultimate club weight, or the swingweight balance that causes the issues you mention?.

My current AP2s were bought 2nd hand and I got them extended 1/2" over std (38.5" 5i) as that is my normal fitting. The shafts are light weight Nippons (970s) and I also use slightly heavier Midsize grips. The irons swingweight at between D3 and D4.5 and I find that suits me pretty well. They feel the best of any irons I have used so far, so I assume they are pretty close to my optimum set up. The AP2s I am looking at belong to a Pro and have the Nippon 105T shafts in stiff flex in them. I am on the border line of reg/stiff I find, so would probably get them soft stepped, which would also give me the 1/2" extra length. Add Midsize grips and I am hoping they are going to swingweight somewhere near my existing set. The lie angles were the missing piece of the potential build as I have been told AP2 are a bit dicey to bend because of the insert!?

[Oldplayer]

I thought that if you lengthen the shaft you will make the lie more upright. So if they are 1 degree flat and you lenghten them they should get back to about standard.

[goonie]

1/2" in length makes lie approx 1* more upright from memory. I think total clubweight is more important than SW.

[IanO]

So Virge ... are you saying that anyone not playing single figures should not have their irons lengthened, irrespective of your height?

[Daves]

I thought that if you lengthen the shaft you will make the lie more upright. So if they are 1 degree flat and you lenghten them they should get back to about standard.


1/2" in length makes lie approx 1* more upright from memory. I think total clubweight is more important than SW.

I went and played around with a club, moving my grip up and down about 1" and that makes sense. Assuming hands are at the same height, the longer shaft forces the club head further away from you horizontally, and that kicks the toe higher. It seems to me that physically the lie angle doesn't actually change, as the hosel is unmoved, so angle between sole and shaft are the same. It is in the swing and the hand placement that the club length forces a change in effective lie angle.

[virge666]

So Virge ... are you saying that anyone not playing single figures should not have their irons lengthened, irrespective of your height?

Pretty much... being tall isn't much of an issue - tall people have longer arms than shorter people so it usually works itself out. There is a wrist to floor measurement guideline and that works out ok - check out PINGFit for more info on that.

I look for other things like hand size. A bloke with girly small hands is going to use shorter clubs because he/she is holding less of the grip which is artificially adding swing weight. Some monster with XXL gloves probably covers most of the grip so we can go a bit longer with him.

Gripping down is another answer that a chopper will come back with - it counter-weights the club and doesn't help. Yes, I know Anthony Kim does it... but he has ALWAYS done it, unlike most of use who have done it a few times. (Also, never get a club fit by soemone who tells you to grip down on an overlength club as a way of testing length)

Please don't get me started on "I cannot reach the golf ball arguement with shorter clubs" - if anyone is that bloody stupid, please take up tennis.

The problem is the lack of control and the lack of being able to release the clubhead. The longer the clubhead, the more the golfers body counterswings the weight of the club... in simple terms - instead of both the body and clubhead going towards the target - the body is going backwards to counterbalance the clubhead going forwards.

All of the above reasons are why swing speed and height is pointless way of fitting clubs. Us fitters need to see how you power the golf club, we then have a chance to give you something decent.

To answer the bit about single figures... honestly it is a guide, if you cannot play off single figure - it means you cannot Par half the holes on the golf course. It sort of says that even though you may love the game and enjoy it - you haven't really got a swing that has the basics right. So adding length to a golf club just makes the game harder.

Haysey is a good example here... the bloke is 8foot tall, built like a brick shithouse, but just doesnt release the club because his clubs are too long. We shorten them up - his hands can work properly - his body can go with the clubhead instead of and he doesn't lose any distance because things just match up.

Longer clubs hit the ball further - always have and always will, but if you can get you PW out to around 90m - and a 6 iron to anything over 140m, you can play of low single figures easily.

Enjoy

[markTHEblake]

but if you can get you PW out to around 90m - and a 6 iron to anything over 140m, you can play of low single figures easily
then how come so many golfers cant?

[Dingo]

Gripping down is another answer that a chopper will come back with - it counter-weights the club and doesn't help. Yes, I know Anthony Kim does it... but he has ALWAYS done it, unlike most of use who have done it a few times. (Also, never get a club fit by soemone who tells you to grip down on an overlength club as a way of testing length)
Enjoy

Gripping down counterweights the club? Please explain.

[virge666]

then how come so many golfers cant?

Because they cannot hit the PW 90m 4 times out of 5. It goes 100m, the 70m, then 30m right, then who knows where.

We have 14 year old boys and girls playing off low singles... We have one kid, Jack McCloud, who weighs as much as my right leg and hits his 5 iron 140m and plays off 4, and he has made reserve for the Major Pennant team this year. We have 2 girls around 15 and 16 who hit it no where and still manage to play of 5 and 6.

Golf is not about how far you hit the ball - it is about distance control. Being able to hit the PW 85-90m all day long somewhere near a target that you can two putt from and maybe even sink it.

Except when you are playing with your mates... then it is about how far you hit it, and how the distance markers were wrong, and that 8iron you hit 160m uphill into the wind with a touch of draw, and how you could have broken 80, but shot 93 because your chipping and putting was off.

:)

Enjoy.

[IanO]

That was a great explanation Virge. Makes sense to me. When I tried out my AP2's (took them out and played 9 holes with them) they were standard length and I had an absolute blinder of a round. When I bought them from my pro he extended them by an inch for me (coz that's what the fitting guides said I needed). I hit them really well since but without the same consistency. Now I am wondering if I shouldn't get the extensions taken out and try playing with standard length clubs for a while.

[virge666]

That was a great explanation Virge. Makes sense to me. When I tried out my AP2's (took them out and played 9 holes with them) they were standard length and I had an absolute blinder of a round. When I bought them from my pro he extended them by an inch for me (coz that's what the fitting guides said I needed). I hit them really well since but without the same consistency. Now I am wondering if I shouldn't get the extensions taken out and try playing with standard length clubs for a while.

Hey mate - pretty much answered your own question... rip them out and play with them for a few months and see how it goes.

It is all about distance control . . . if you make that a priority, you WILL improve - it is impossible not to. Think of the holes on your golf course... how many holes have you got where you get into trouble if you are "pin high" or thereabouts... now think how many holes you have where you are rooted long or short.

Exactly.

[markTHEblake]

Because they cannot ....

Hang about, you said that they could play off single figures easily!

[IanO]

Thanks Virge .. you just confirmed what I have been thinking. I have managed to get from 22 down to 15 in the last 18 mths but the thing I am noticing now is consistency in distance control 9 - 4 iron. I will give it a shot.

[virge666]

Hang about, you said that they could play off single figures easily!

selective editing there...

:)

I reckon with your last couple of days with Martinez, that you should be extolling the virtues on control. His swing model is rotary and will excel in controlling the trajectory of the ball when executed correctly.

[markTHEblake]

selective editing there...

wasnt being deliberately mischievous,. thats the gist i got from you, and i helped you take it further :-)
Yes they 'could' and they 'should' but they don't.

[IanO]

I couldn't bring myself to chopping a whole inch off the shafts so I took off half an inch (with the help of Chappy and his tools ... thanks mate :D ). I took them to the range today and was hitting them sweet, but hitting off matts is no real test. 7:14 am tee time tomorrow will tell (not sure how smart I am doing this mod before the 1st round of the club champs, but will see how I go :smt108 )