One for the rules gurus.

[bergsey]

A scenario for you guys -

Stroke comp

Player hits tee shot into thick scrub about 20m from tee.

Player goes forward to search for the ball, can't find it quickly, so goes back to the tee to hit a provisional while partners continue search.

Before hitting provisional partners find ball.

Ball is in unplayable position, so player calls it unplayable and then hits shot from tee with the original ball (playing 3 from the tee).

Player hits this shot into the same area, ball is declared lost.

Player plays new ball from the tee (playing 5 from the tee).

Is all of this kosher as per the rules?

[mike]

Well if that happens on the first tee you shake hands and go home.

[Yossarian]

I'd think so.

[Johnny Canuck]

All is good.

However, he can't hit a provisional after going forward to search. If he had hit the provisional in this instance and then the partners found the first, the provisional would have automatically been the ball in play.

[TheTrueReview]

I bet he wished it was a stableford.

[markTHEblake]

Player goes forward to search for the ball, can't find it quickly, so goes back to the tee to hit a provisional while partners continue search.

It would seem obvious that this all occurred inside the 5 mins, so;

A golfer definitely cannot decide to hit a provisional once he has left the tee (basically) The rules define that as moving forward to look for the ball or something like that.


Before hitting provisional partners find ball.

If he had hit the ball, it would be considered the ball in Play. Based on the fact that it was his intention to unknowingly put the ball in play, does not count as a players spoken words does not make a ball lost - see rules definitions "Lost Ball"



Ball is in unplayable position, so player calls it unplayable and then hits shot from tee with the original ball (playing 3 from the tee).

Sounds right to me. Though I can see how this situation could have got quite messy if things got out of order, like if he hit the intended provisional, or found the original ball after 5 mins, and then went to the tee again.

[David Williams]

A scenario for you guys -
Player hits this shot into the same area, ball is declared lost.

You can't "declare" a ball lost... it only becomes lost if not found within 5 minutes OR another ball is put into play.

In this case, if he thinks the ball cannot be found so doesn't bother looking he is really just putting another ball into play...

It astounds me the amount of times I hear... "I declare that ball lost". The discussion that usually follows is an amusing one... (to me not them)

Decisions of the Rules of Golf 27/16

[bergsey]

It would seem obvious that this all occurred inside the 5 mins, so;

A golfer definitely cannot decide to hit a provisional once he has left the tee (basically) The rules define that as moving forward to look for the ball or something like that.



If he had hit the ball, it would be considered the ball in Play. Based on the fact that it was his intention to unknowingly put the ball in play, does not count as a players spoken words does not make a ball lost - see rules definitions "Lost Ball"



Sounds right to me. Though I can see how this situation could have got quite messy if things got out of order, like if he hit the intended provisional, or found the original ball after 5 mins, and then went to the tee again.

Yeah all happened in about 5 mins as the field was backing up... a bit of a calamity.

I said to the guy that one option was to re-hit from the original location (i.e. the tee). The others in the group didnt think this was the case though and said that he had to drop it within two clublengths or go back in a line between the ball and the pin.

Checking the rules again looks like i was right re the third option of hitting from the original spot. Can be re-teed as well if on the teeing ground....

[David Williams]

It can be re-teed.

It's amazing the amount of people that don't know the rules. Bergsey, well done for knowing the correct rule but you should've put your foot down and stood up for what you know is right :)

And to think each club gives out free rule books, but do you think anyone carries, reads or refers to them?

I love pulling out the rule book when the old guys have played by their version of the rules for years, and try to tell me I've done something wrong, and then won't listen when I tell them I haven't.

[IanO]

Yup .. I carry a rule book in my bag for exactly that reason ... these old guys who have played by what they think are the rules for years (without ever checking the rules book)

[bergsey]

Yup .. I carry a rule book in my bag for exactly that reason ... these old guys who have played by what they think are the rules for years (without ever checking the rules book)

One of the comments i got back was 'yeah i know they updated the rules recently so that one must be in there...' :)

[MegaWatty]

Two for you:

1. You bump the ball with your marker whilst marking it or removing the marker. I don't mean you drop your marker on the ball.

2. You have an unplayable so you take the two club lengths. You drop your ball inside the two club limit but it bounces outside of that limit.

[Johnny Canuck]

Two for you:

1. You bump the ball with your marker whilst marking it or removing the marker. I don't mean you drop your marker on the ball.

2. You have an unplayable so you take the two club lengths. You drop your ball inside the two club limit but it bounces outside of that limit.

1. Read this wrong the first time. No penalty, as long as you replace it.

2. Fine as long as it doesn't roll more than 2 clublengths or nearer to the hole.

[MegaWatty]

Number 1 is because of Padraig and Poults recently.

Number 2. So basically you can get 4 clublengths relief.

[Johnny Canuck]

Number 2, you can if you drop it right at the 2 clublength limit. It's 2 clublengths roll from where it strikes the course. I used to take advantage of this at KBay from time to time. You can get good roll off that short grass.

[MegaWatty]

That's exactly what I thought.

My thinking on 1 is that you can (have to) replace it without penalty but can't find the ruling.

[simmsy]

you were right then Mega! does that mean we can claim a refund on our losses yesterday?:D

[MegaWatty]

And rule 20-1 says I'm right about number 1.

[MegaWatty]

Also, if Yoss jumps into this thread, you're words of re-creating the lie in the bunker when we were next to each other were spot on.

[TourFit]

you were right then Mega! does that mean we can claim a refund on our losses yesterday?:D

Ehhh?



Also, if Yoss jumps into this thread, you're words of re-creating the lie in the bunker when we were next to each other were spot on.

Ehhh?

[MegaWatty]

You re-dropped your ball on 2 yesterday. I was thinking it was because it bounced outside of the 2 club relief point but wasn't sure of the rule.

And, I had to mark my ball in the bunker and we were discussing whether I get to rake the bunker back to how it was before replacing.

[Johnny Canuck]

Fit cheated?

10689

[TourFit]

Is there a penalty though for redropping your ball WITHIN the two clublengths...? I think not...it clearly states that you must be within TWO clublengths of the original position. So when I dropped it bounced OUTSIDE of where my tee marked the two clublengths limit. So I re-dropped WITHIN that two clublength limit...as far as I know you there is no pseudo 4 clublength limit. It can roll more than a clublength but only WITHIN that two clublength limit, but as soon as that distance is breached the ball must be redropped inside.


28 - BALL UNPLAYABLE

The player may deem his ball unplayable at any place on the course, except when the ball is in a water hazard. The player is the sole judge as to whether his ball is unplayable.
If the player deems his ball to be unplayable, he must under penalty of one stroke:
Play a ball as nearly as possible at the spot from which the original ball was last played (see Rule 20-5); or
Drop a ball behind the point where the ball lay, keeping that point directly between the hole and the spot on which the ball is dropped, with no limit to how far behind that point the ball may be dropped; or
Drop a ball within two club-lengths of the spot where the ball lay, but not nearer the hole.
If the unplayable ball is in a bunker, the player may proceed under Clause a, b or c. If he elects to proceed under Clause b or c, a ball must be dropped in the bunker.
When proceeding under this Rule, the player may lift and clean his ball or substitute a ball.
PENALTY FOR BREACH OF RULE:
Match play – Loss of hole; Stroke play – Two strokes.


As for your bunker shot on 8...

20-3 PLACING AND REPLACING

b. Lie of Ball to be Placed or Replaced Altered
If the original lie of a ball to be placed or replaced has been altered:
(i) except in a hazard, the ball must be placed in the nearest lie most similar to the original lie that is not more than one club-length from the original lie, not nearer the hole and not in a hazard;
(ii) in a water hazard, the ball must be placed in accordance with Clause (i) above, except that the ball must be placed in the water hazard;
(iii) in a bunker, the original lie must be re-created as nearly as possible and the ball must be placed in that lie.

[MegaWatty]

I never said he cheated. I don't know why he re-dropped.

[Johnny Canuck]

As long as the ball strikes the course within 2 clublengths of where it originally lay, it can then roll up to another two clublengths and still be in play. Technically, you can just about get 4 clublengths away from the original position where relief was taken and have the ball in play.

Once you drop it, you cannot pick it up until it stops rolling, or unless it is virtually certain that it will not roll back inside the two clublength limit.

In your instance, you were incorrect in redropping as the ball did not roll more than two clublengths from where it struck the course. Penalty should be applied in this instance as soon as you picked up your ball after a legal drop.

I am so disappoint.

[Johnny Canuck]

Fit has a history of questionable attempted rulings at KBay.

[TourFit]

JC, so this is what you're saying...


20-2 DROPPING AND REDROPPING

c. When to Re-Drop

A dropped ball must be re-dropped, without penalty, if it:
(i) rolls into and comes to rest in a hazard;
(ii) rolls out of and comes to rest outside a hazard;
(iii) rolls onto and comes to rest on a putting green;
(iv) rolls and comes to rest out of bounds;
(v) rolls to and comes to rest in a position where there is interference by the condition from which relief was taken under Rule 24-2b (immovable obstruction), Rule 25-1 (abnormal ground conditions), Rule 25-3 (wrong putting green) or a Local Rule (Rule 33-8a), or rolls back into the pitch-mark from which it was lifted under Rule 25-2 (embedded ball);
(vi) rolls and comes to rest more than two club-lengths from where it first struck a part of the course; or
(vii) rolls and comes to rest nearer the hole than:
(a) its original position or estimated position (see Rule 20-2b) unless otherwise permitted by the Rules; or
(b) the nearest point of relief or maximum available relief (Rule 24-2, 25-1 or 25-3); or
(c) the point where the original ball last crossed the margin of the water hazard or lateral water hazard (Rule 26-1).
If the ball when re-dropped rolls into any position listed above, it must be placed as near as possible to the spot where it first struck a part of the course when re-dropped.
Note 1: If a ball when dropped or re-dropped comes to rest and subsequently moves, the ball must be played as it lies, unless the provisions of any other Rule apply.
Note 2: If a ball to be re-dropped or placed under this Rule is not immediately recoverable, another ball may be substituted.
(Use of dropping zone - see Appendix 1, Part B, Section B)
PENALTY FOR BREACH OF RULE 20-1, 20-2 or 20-3:
Match play – Loss of hole; Stroke play – Two strokes.



AND YOU'RE CALLING ME A CHEAT...WITH A HISTORY OF CHEATING, (or attempted cheating!).

[MegaWatty]

That's what JC said. Two club lengths roll from where it hits the ground. I can see a shit fight about to happen here. I pre-empt it by saying I was unsure. Fit, JC is gonna come after you. Please don't bite!

[TourFit]

He's obviously got nothing better to do...



...not with Golfnuts' missus tonight then???

[TourFit]

That's what JC said. Two club lengths roll from where it hits the ground. I can see a shit fight about to happen here. I pre-empt it by saying I was unsure. Fit, JC is gonna come after you. Please don't bite!

Bite you or bite at his baiting...?



If it proves to be the correct ruling, then I will happily call KB and get them to apply the specified penalty and hence disqualify me for signing an incorrect card. If I have been in breach, then I can do no more, no less.

[Johnny Canuck]

Is there a penalty though for redropping your ball WITHIN the two clublengths...? I think not...it clearly states that you must be within TWO clublengths of the original position. So when I dropped it bounced OUTSIDE of where my tee marked the two clublengths limit. So I re-dropped WITHIN that two clublength limit...as far as I know you there is no pseudo 4 clublength limit. It can roll more than a clublength but only WITHIN that two clublength limit, but as soon as that distance is breached the ball must be redropped inside.







JC, so this is what you're saying...


20-2 DROPPING AND REDROPPING

c. When to Re-Drop

A dropped ball must be re-dropped, without penalty, if it:
(vi) rolls and comes to rest more than two club-lengths from where it first struck a part of the course;




AND YOU'RE CALLING ME A CHEAT...WITH A HISTORY OF CHEATING, (or attempted cheating!).

It sounds like you are a little confused Fit. If you cheated, it was unintentional.

Let's examine your first post: Tourfit said: "it clearly states that you must be within TWO clublengths of the original position." - No it doesn't. Your dropping radius is two clublengths of the original position, no nearer to the hole.

Tourfit said: "So when I dropped it bounced OUTSIDE of where my tee marked the two clublengths limit." - Once you drop the ball, the tee that marked the two clublength limit is irrelevant, provided the ball first struck the course inside of the two length limit. It can then roll up to another two clublengths. Please refer to the rule you quoted: "(vi) rolls and comes to rest more than two club-lengths from where it first struck a part of the course"

Tourfit said: "So I re-dropped WITHIN that two clublength limit" - A re drop was not required as the first was legit. Your ball was in play and you picked it up. Penalty. One stroke, replace your ball.

Tourfit said: "It can roll more than a clublength but only WITHIN that two clublength limit, but as soon as that distance is breached the ball must be redropped inside." - It can actually roll up to two clublengths. As previously stated, you must wait for the ball to stop rolling, unless you are certain it won't roll back inside the 2 clublengths. Appleby got done for this a few years back.

The only way you could have redropped by the sound of things Fit is if your original drop struck the course outside of the two clublength tee that you had put down.


On a side note, I hope you placed a tee in the ground when you declared the unplayable and picked up your ball. Otherwise, you're looking at another penalty there too.

[MegaWatty]

It's not sheep stations and it was behind the ladies tees. Don't stress. I simply put it in here because I wasn't sure. Bloody Simmsy opened his keyboard mouth.

[Johnny Canuck]

That's what JC said. Two club lengths roll from where it hits the ground. I can see a shit fight about to happen here. I pre-empt it by saying I was unsure. Fit, JC is gonna come after you. Please don't bite!

No shit fight at all. I am not coming after Fit. I am 100% sure on this ruling and am trying to nicely explain it. For once, no sarcasm.


He's obviously got nothing better to do...



...not with Golfnuts' missus tonight then???

Who is baiting who here? =P~


Bite you or bite at his baiting...?



If it proves to be the correct ruling, then I will happily call KB and get them to apply the specified penalty and hence disqualify me for signing an incorrect card. If I have been in breach, then I can do no more, no less.

I not saying to go to that length, it is not my intention at all.

The confusion seems to stem from the fact that the ball does not need to finish inside the original two clublengths that you mark off before you drop the ball, which is a common misconception.

I actually called out a pro who thought it was only allowed to roll 1 clublength before it was re-dropped, in a club championship, nonetheless. I'm very familiar with this ruling, as a result.

[Johnny Canuck]

It's not sheep stations and it was behind the ladies tees. Don't stress. I simply put it in here because I wasn't sure. Bloody Simmsy opened his keyboard mouth.

Jug City!

[TourFit]

Actually, I did place a tee in the ground at the original point BEFORE picking up the ball. I always do. I placed a second tee at one clublength (no nearer the hole), and the final tee at two clublengths (no nearer the hole).

I dropped the ball from shoulder height, and it landed within the two clublengths.

However, the reason I re-dropped was because it bounced closer to the hole than the original position, by about 6 inches.

Now why don't you go back to bed...I suggest you let Golfnut cuddle his missus tonight and just spoon him instead.

[Johnny Canuck]

Two for you:

2. You have an unplayable so you take the two club lengths. You drop your ball inside the two club limit but it bounces outside of that limit.


Is there a penalty though for redropping your ball WITHIN the two clublengths...? I think not...it clearly states that you must be within TWO clublengths of the original position. So when I dropped it bounced OUTSIDE of where my tee marked the two clublengths limit. So I re-dropped WITHIN that two clublength limit...as far as I know you there is no pseudo 4 clublength limit. It can roll more than a clublength but only WITHIN that two clublength limit, but as soon as that distance is breached the ball must be redropped inside.




I dropped the ball from shoulder height, and it landed within the two clublengths.

However, the reason I re-dropped was because it bounced closer to the hole than the original position, by about 6 inches.

Now why don't you go back to bed...I suggest you let Golfnut cuddle his missus tonight and just spoon him instead.



The story has changed now that you understand the ruling. Highly amusing. Someone can't admit he made a mistake. It's ok Fit. I still love you.

But I am still disappoint.

[markTHEblake]

Do you get it yet TF - yes you have potentially up to 4 clublengths releif depending on how much roll you can get on it.

Now here is another one for ya. If you are taking an unplayable lie - lets say your Prov1 is up against a tree, can you chuck it away and drop a Bridestone 330s under the unplayable rule?


28 - BALL UNPLAYABLE
The player may deem his ball unplayable at any place on the course, except when the ball is in a water hazard. The player is the sole judge as to whether his ball is unplayable.
If the player deems his ball to be unplayable, he must under penalty of one stroke:
Play a ball as nearly as possible at the spot from which the original ball was last played (see Rule 20-5); or
Drop a ball behind the point where the ball lay, keeping that point directly between the hole and the spot on which the ball is dropped, with no limit to how far behind that point the ball may be dropped; or
Drop a ball within two club-lengths of the spot where the ball lay, but not nearer the hole.
If the unplayable ball is in a bunker, the player may proceed under Clause a, b or c. If he elects to proceed under Clause b or c, a ball must be dropped in the bunker.
When proceeding under this Rule, the player may lift and clean his ball or substitute a ball.
PENALTY FOR BREACH OF RULE:
Match play – Loss of hole; Stroke play – Two strokes.

[Johnny Canuck]

Fully legal Blakey. When taking an unplayable, you can substitute a ball.

[markTHEblake]

Yes, something I learnt at the rules seminar i went to recently. The main thing they were highlighting this time was that the rules are very explicit when referring to "the" ball and "a" ball, and the exam had several questions on that topic.

I think it is something most golfers would never have noticed in the rules.

[MegaWatty]

I realised the use of words in the rules a couple of years ago when I thought it was compulsory to use a coin like object to mark the rules. The rules use definite phrases, optional phrases and best practice phrases.

[Yossarian]

What did I say about the bunker?

[MegaWatty]

Re-create the lie.

[TourFit]

The story has changed now that you understand the ruling. Highly amusing. Someone can't admit he made a mistake. It's ok Fit. I still love you.

But I am still disappoint.


So you're STILL calling me a cheat then...AND NOW A LIAR AS WELL.



If the ball hadn't moved forward of the original position, in truth, I would have re-dropped it anyway because it was outside the two clublengths, which was what I perceived to be right.

The fact that I originally forgot to mention that it HAD rolled forward from the drop (I was starting to see the red mist by then!!!) is neither here nor there in terms of this story. Forgetting to mention something is not cheating, it is forgetting something....

As soon as the ball moved forward of the original position, my perception of the two clublength rule becomes a moot point. I got lucky, in reality, because as I just mentioned, I would have re-dropped anyway EVEN IF IT HAD BEEN BEHIND THAT ORIGINAL POSITION.

And I would, under those circumstances, have copped a penalty resulting in DQ (again, happy to cop if that had been the case).

[bergsey]

I had any interesting one the other week in Stableford comp.

Most weeks i carry my bag but this time took my buggy. I left the buggy part way down one of the fairways and went to tee off.

The tee shot collected trees about 50m down the fairway and dropped down and landed on my buggy - penalty

Move the buggy and played the next shot - clipped a branch and rolled under the buggy again - took a penalty and picked up the ball !

I was glad it wasn't a stroke round, one of those things that you think would never happen but remember folks to keep your buggy etc out of the way !

Actually it would have been an interesting ruling on the second one, the ball rolled under the buggy but i couldn't tell whether it had actually touched it or not on the way thru. No one else could verify. I gather i could have just played it without penalty and moved the buggy as a moveable obstruction?

[IanO]

The ruling talks about the ball being deflected or stopped, so if no one believed it had been deflected or stopped by the buggy then it should not be a penalty (IMO)

I am not sure whether the buggy then becomes a movable obstruction as the rule book seems to define it as equipment or an outside agency, but if it can be defined as a movable obstruction you can move it without penalty. If the ball moves as a result of moving the buggy the ball is replaced without penalty.

Definitely interested in hearing other points of view on this.

[Johnny Canuck]

So you're STILL calling me a cheat then...AND NOW A LIAR AS WELL.



If the ball hadn't moved forward of the original position, in truth, I would have re-dropped it anyway because it was outside the two clublengths, which was what I perceived to be right.

The fact that I originally forgot to mention that it HAD rolled forward from the drop (I was starting to see the red mist by then!!!) is neither here nor there in terms of this story. Forgetting to mention something is not cheating, it is forgetting something....

As soon as the ball moved forward of the original position, my perception of the two clublength rule becomes a moot point. I got lucky, in reality, because as I just mentioned, I would have re-dropped anyway EVEN IF IT HAD BEEN BEHIND THAT ORIGINAL POSITION.

And I would, under those circumstances, have copped a penalty resulting in DQ (again, happy to cop if that had been the case).

Not calling you a cheat, just saying that you unintentionally cheated. There is a big difference.

I just find it funny how you would fail to state that the ball was closer to the hole as everyone knows this ruling. You also highlighted #6 in the rules and #7 was about moving closer to the hole.

Plus, Mega and Simmsy said it definitely didn't move closer to the hole.

I am getting even more disappoint.

[MegaWatty]

I didn't say it didn't move closer. I was simply unaware of why it was re-dropped.

[Johnny Canuck]

That's not what you sms'd me. nice message from beiber, by the way. what a little poof.

[MegaWatty]

You're such a dick. I knew you'd struggle to not try an fire up fit a little. Now you say I SMS'd you. I am sitting here giggling knowing that you probably are too and fit's probably raging.

For the record, I haven't SMS'd or PM'd the Canuck about this. :)

[Johnny Canuck]

Don't believe Fit. He is just trying to cover his wobbling 3-striped duck ass. There is no way the ball moved forward. Simmsy agrees . I don't think he's forgiven fit for not gluing the head on his driver. Don't tell Fit I said this unless you really have too. I am very disappoint too.

You didn't message? What's this?

[MegaWatty]

LOL. WAnker.

[TourFit]

Quality sledging all around...

[Zeusgolf]

Like :smt023

[Cosmopolite]

geez I need Rubin to sum this up for me. too hard to troll through all of the posts lol.

for those that would like the answer in pics:

http://www.randa.org/en/Playing-Golf/Quick-Guide-to-the-Rules/Lifting-Dropping-and-Placing-the-Ball.aspx

[Johnny Canuck]

Fit unintentionally cheated not knowing the rules.

Canuck informed him of the correct ruling.

Fit objected.

Canuck clarified.

Fit changed his story.

Canuck called him on it.

Blakey told fit he was wrong.

Mega SMS'd Canuck confirming the unintentional cheat.

Numerous people are disappoint.

[Cosmopolite]

Fit unintentionally cheated not knowing the rules.

Canuck informed him of the correct ruling.

Fit objected.

Canuck clarified.

Fit changed his story.

Canuck called him on it.

Blakey told fit he was wrong.

Mega SMS'd Canuck confirming the unintentional cheat.

Numerous people are disappoint.

ok, need the short version of how he cheated and what correct ruling is

[Johnny Canuck]

Took unplayable. Two clublengths. When dropping, it can then roll up to 2 clublengths from the point it strikes the course.

Fit thought that once it rolled outside the original two clublengths it had to be redropped. He picked up his ball on a legal drop, which is where the penalty would have occurred. He should have played it from where it stopped.

After the dust settled, he understood the rule and then said that his ball bounced nearer to the hole. Mega said it didn't.

[MegaWatty]

GGF you dirty Canadian stirrer! I bet Simmsy SMS'd you.

[Johnny Canuck]

He said you'd try and blame him!

[Cosmopolite]

ah got it now

[MegaWatty]

I've worked it out. ****en Yoss!!!

[MegaWatty]

Canuck, I knew I'd seen you on TV previously!

http://www.cheaters.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/JoeyGreco_camera_lg.jpg

[Johnny Canuck]

:mrgreen:

[Yossarian]

I am almost positve TF initial drop rolled closer to the hole.

[Johnny Canuck]

Boooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!

[rubin]

it looks as though, when all else fails.................


blame YOSS!

[TourFit]

I am almost positve TF initial drop rolled closer to the hole.

Wooohooo. Vindication.

Free grip removals for Yoss.

[Yossarian]

I was standing the closest and I am about 95% sure it did in fact kick forward.

Simmsy also got a free drop from burrowing kangaroo paws.

[MegaWatty]

A new one:

Say your ball is stuck high in a tree like Jerry Kelly's was today. Where does he get to drop the ball. Within two club lengths assuming the ball was on the ground directly below?

[Bruce]

Decision 28/11
Q - A player's ball is eight feet off the ground, lodged in a tree. The player deems the ball unplayable. May the player proceed under option c of Rule 28 which permits him to drop a ball within two club-lengths of where his ball lay unplayable?

A - Yes. The player would be entitled to drop a ball within two club-lengths of the point on the ground immediately below the place where the ball lay in the tree. In some instances this may allow the player to drop a ball on a putting green. (Revised)

[MegaWatty]

Cheers.

[PeteyD]

Oh Bruce, we had a golden chance to really confuzzle him then.

[MegaWatty]

Cheers Petey. ;) I actually saw the ruling after it took them 15 minutes to identify the ball using a camera.

I'd like to see this thread used a bit more. It's good to discuss odd sort of rulings.

[PeteyD]

Had a good one on Saturday. Bloke believed an unplayable in a bunker could be dropped outside it (as per normal unplayable rules). Considering he DQ'd himself later it didn't matter, but I hope he does look up the rule to check now.

The other one is playing a provisional ball (second and subsequent shots) until it is closer to the hole than the original is likely to be. I am not sure of this is an RandA rule and not USGA or if it was changed sometime recently, as you can find advice that says the second stroke on a Provisional makes it in play.

[hocko]

Had a good one on Saturday. Bloke believed an unplayable in a bunker could be dropped outside it (as per normal unplayable rules). Considering he DQ'd himself later it didn't matter, but I hope he does look up the rule to check now.

The other one is playing a provisional ball (second and subsequent shots) until it is closer to the hole than the original is likely to be. I am not sure of this is an RandA rule and not USGA or if it was changed sometime recently, as you can find advice that says the second stroke on a Provisional makes it in play.
I had always thought you could play the second ball until it is closer to the hole than the original balls suspected position.
Is this now not the case?
Also many people are not aware that a player cannot declare a ball lost, they just hit a second ball and complete the hole with that one, or on a non stroke round, wipw the hole.

[MegaWatty]

How good a look do you have to have for the first ball after you've hit a provisional?

[PeteyD]

You are right, you can play the provisional until it is closer.

[MegaWatty]

Petey...

b. When Provisional Ball Becomes Ball in Play

The player may play a provisional ball until he reaches the place where the original ball is likely to be. If he makes a stroke with the provisional ball from the place where the original ball is likely to be or from a point nearer the hole than that place, the original ball is*lost and the provisional ball becomes the ball in play * under penalty of stroke and distance (Rule 27-1).

[Minor_Threat]

How good a look do you have to have for the first ball after you've hit a provisional?
You don't have to search at all if you like.


You are right, you can play the provisional until it is closer.
Yep this is how I always understood the rule also.

[MegaWatty]

Thanks MT. That's why I told my playing partner the other day. He can declare the first ball lost at any time.

[PeteyD]

Meh, I know the rule, was just pointing out that not everyone does.

[MegaWatty]

Oh. I thought you meant you couldn't find it.

[PeteyD]

Easy to do.

[Johnny Canuck]

Had a good one on Saturday. Bloke believed an unplayable in a bunker could be dropped outside it (as per normal unplayable rules). Considering he DQ'd himself later it didn't matter, but I hope he does look up the rule to check now.

The other one is playing a provisional ball (second and subsequent shots) until it is closer to the hole than the original is likely to be. I am not sure of this is an RandA rule and not USGA or if it was changed sometime recently, as you can find advice that says the second stroke on a Provisional makes it in play.

He can take the unplayable and play from where he last played a stroke from. That could have been his only option.


I had always thought you could play the second ball until it is closer to the hole than the original balls suspected position.
Is this now not the case?
Also many people are not aware that a player cannot declare a ball lost, they just hit a second ball and complete the hole with that one, or on a non stroke round, wipw the hole.

Exactly. It's not actually where the original ball is found, it is where it is "likely to be", as Hocko says.

MEga, regarding the original ball being lost, if you play a provisional and decide not to look, I could be a dick and look for it. If I find it inside of 5 minutes and you haven't played a shot from past where the original lay, you would have to play it. I had it happen in a match play.

[MegaWatty]

So a ball cannot be declared lost until the 5 minutes is up. It is out of play once you play the provisional in front of where it is expected to be.

[simmsy]

He can take the unplayable and play from where he last played a stroke from. That could have been his only option.



Exactly. It's not actually where the original ball is found, it is where it is "likely to be", as Hocko says.

MEga, regarding the original ball being lost, if you play a provisional and decide not to look, I could be a dick and look for it. If I find it inside of 5 minutes and you haven't played a shot from past where the original lay, you would have to play it. I had it happen in a match play.

wow, your opponent would be a right WAnker wouldn't he.

[Courty]

I'd like to see this thread used a bit more. It's good to discuss odd sort of rulings.

Me too, although I highly recommend downloading the R&A Rules of Golf iPhone App (not sure if you can get it for Android). Very handy whilst on the battlefield!

[MegaWatty]

Got it. It's awesome!

[Minor_Threat]

I have one that I am not certain about.

Our course has a lot of sand waste type areas in the rough and beyond. I saw a bloke a few weeks back moving sand from in behind his ball, so it ended up basically being teed up, as there was a hollow in behind the ball. Is this allowed? I would have thought it would be somewhere around the "building a stance" ruling, although to be honest I have not done much research on it.

[Courty]

Off the top of my head it sounds like the 'improving your lie' one.

[rubin]

I would agree. Had to pull a guy up on this last week. Landed in a sandy spot just off the fairway. He then used his club to wipe away some stick etc which was cool, bu the did it 3 or 4 more times until he had dug a little hollow.

Unfortunately the other guy in the group had no idea of the rules and had to pull out the trusty rule book to show them.

[Minor_Threat]

Just had a quick search of the R&A site and found it at Rule 13-2 "Improving Lie, Area of Intended Stance or Swing, or Line of Play"


A player must not improve or allow to be improved:
• the position or lie of his ball,
• the area of his intended stance or swing,
• his line of play or a reasonable extension of that line beyond the hole, or
• the area in which he is to drop or place a ball,
by any of the following actions:
• pressing a club on the ground,
• moving, bending or breaking anything growing or fixed (including immovable obstructions and objects defining out of bounds),
• creating or eliminating irregularities of surface,
• removing or pressing down sand, loose soil, replaced divots or other cut turf placed in position, or
• removing dew, frost or water.
However, the player incurs no penalty if the action occurs:
• in grounding the club lightly when addressing the ball,
• in fairly taking his stance,
• in making a stroke or the backward movement of his club for a stroke and the stroke is made,
• in creating or eliminating irregularities of surface within the teeing ground (Rule 11-1) or in removing dew, frost or water from the teeing ground, or
• on the putting green in removing sand and loose soil or in repairing damage (Rule 16-1).
Exception: Ball in hazard – see Rule 13-4.

PENALTY FOR BREACH OF RULE:
Match play – Loss of hole; Stroke play – Two strokes.

Definite penalty! The guy was not in my group and if I was confident that I knew the rule I would have said something to him..

[rubin]

another good one for guys if you dont have an Iphone is the pocket rules guide. I think most Pro-Shops and golf shops have them. Its got the rules and penalties for each, but doesnt have the HUGE detail of the official R&A book.

[markTHEblake]

Our course has a lot of sand waste type areas in the rough and beyond. I saw a bloke a few weeks back moving sand from in behind his ball,

From the Definitions: "Sand is a loose impediment on the putting green, but not elsewhere"

[Minor_Threat]

Toronto had a 2 local rules I have never come across before on the weekend:

1. 30cm prefered lie in your "own" fairway
2. If ball lies on loose rocks, the ball can be lifted, rocks swept away and ball replaced. If rocks are embedded, ball can be dropped at nearest point, no closer to the hole.

[rubin]

I've come across the preferred lie on the fairway before. Rockingham plays that quite a bit

[hocko]

Obviously you have to read the local rules at the pro shop or on the card....Melville has a policy that there are no cart paths on the golf course.
I have had to hit off concrete in previous games.

[markTHEblake]

Toronto had a 2 local rules I have never come across before on the weekend:
It is not compulsory for a club to use the example local rules listed in the Rules Appendix. However it is recommended that they do, because it removes any ambiguity which is common when a club makes up its own local rules - followed sub-sequentially by the players.

My club seems to have some local rules that are not on the local rule board "its always been the rule here"

[Johnny Canuck]

wow, your opponent would be a right WAnker wouldn't he.

I wasn't happy. Deep kack, left side of 9 at KB. We had both hit in, so I was quite happy to go 3 off the tee and play it out.



So a ball cannot be declared lost until the 5 minutes is up. It is out of play once you play the provisional in front of where it is expected to be.

Technically, yes. You can instantly take it out of play by dropping, not declaring a provisional, and playing another shot.


I would agree. Had to pull a guy up on this last week. Landed in a sandy spot just off the fairway. He then used his club to wipe away some stick etc which was cool, bu the did it 3 or 4 more times until he had dug a little hollow.

Unfortunately the other guy in the group had no idea of the rules and had to pull out the trusty rule book to show them.

Give me the initials of the member. I've had a chat with one guy there before about a similar thing.

[markTHEblake]

MEga, regarding the original ball being lost, if you play a provisional and decide not to look, I could be a dick and look for it. If I find it inside of 5 minutes and you haven't played a shot from past where the original lay, you would have to play it. I had it happen in a match play.

the interesting aside from that scenario is if Dick finds a ball, then the player is obligated to identify whether it is his or not. He cant brush it off with a 'forget about it'.

Hey there is an idea, walk in there with half a dozen old balls and leave them lying around. Then point them out to him one by one - very slowly.

[rubin]

I wasn't happy. Deep kack, left side of 9 at KB. We had both hit in, so I was quite happy to go 3 off the tee and play it out.




Technically, yes. You can instantly take it out of play by dropping, not declaring a provisional, and playing another shot.



Give me the initials of the member. I've had a chat with one guy there before about a similar thing.

I dont actually know his last name, only the first. He's only been there for about 8 months or so.

[Johnny Canuck]

Not the same guy then. You see some interesting things out there.

[rubin]

absolutely.

Local rule regarding ball plugged in bunker face etc, etc. The bloke was adamant I had to play it as it lies. Its even got the rule on the scorecard as per rule 22, but he refused to sign the card if I took relief. Thats a name i'll be looking out for.

[IanO]

Me too, although I highly recommend downloading the R&A Rules of Golf iPhone App (not sure if you can get it for Android). Very handy whilst on the battlefield!
I got it on the iPhone and it is excellent

[Bruce]

I sent a question to the R&A, apparently they are generating a flash based rules app for mobile devices first then making an android specific version.

[IanO]

I had the situation the other day where I chipped my ball to about 18" and one of the guys in my group was to chip next and I thought that there was a good chance that his chip might hit my ball and deflect closer to the hole. I said hang on while I mark my ball, he said leave it as it may help stop his ball. He then chipped before I could get to the ball to mark it. He missed my ball, but my understanding is that I have to mark it (especially as he wanted me to leave it to help him). I reckon rule 22 is pretty clear on it and we had quite a bit of discussion as a group over the next few holes.

[3oneday]

You don't have to mark it, but he can't ask you to leave it there either.

[rubin]

You don't have to mark it, but he can't ask you to leave it there either.

+1. According to rule 22. Auto dis-qualification.

[IanO]

I just re-read the rule. If he asks me to leave it there and I agree we can both be disqualified by the Committee, but normally it is a two stroke penalty. But to him or me?

[rubin]

It would be to him.

By the sounds of it though, you didnt agree to leave it there.He just played it before you got a chance to mark.

[IanO]

If he had hit my ball I would have asked that he take a 2 stroke penalty, as it was he got no where near it so it was academic.

[PeteyD]

There is no penalty for hitting your ball, assuming he was off the green. Agreeing between you to not lift the ball is DQ. That didn't happen as you wanted to mark it.

I think the key word in the rule is May. Pretty sure the breach of rule would be for not replacing it correctly, or cleaning it when not allowed to?? Not sure that he is obligated to wait for you to mark your ball. anyone have a decision? Longwinded thread on ISG about it.

[Minor_Threat]

If he had hit my ball I would have asked that he take a 2 stroke penalty, as it was he got no where near it so it was academic.You can't enforce a penalty on him for hitting your ball. All that happened is he hit before you were able to mark it, a breach of etiquette, but not a breach of the rules.

[rubin]

Similar to something hocko has mentioned before... I played a course onetime (i believe its Kwinana) who had a local rule in effect that 'every shot was to be played as it lies'. Apparently this was due to some members taking ridiculous amounts of relief so they could have perfect lies.

Anyway, my Uncles drive found its way into a grass tree (blackboy tree, whatever you want to call it) and was nestled in there at about waist height. The old guy we were playing with agreed to allow him relief, but the other younger guy (about mid to late 30's) said it was play it as it lies. Even though this would mean playing it from a tree.

What would have been correct in that situation? I would have thought it was an obvious unplayable lie and relief can be taken? and at what point do the official R&A rules 'over-rule' the local rules?

[PeteyD]

Declare it unplayable. You are not allowed relief, you take a penalty stroke and then proceed according to the rules. You can call the ball unplayable anywhere (except in a water hazard). I doubt that a local rule can be used to alter that.

[Minor_Threat]

IMO there are possibly three options available in this scenario:

1. An unplayable lie can be taken - 1 stroke penalty
a) Go back to where last stroke was played
b) Go back on line with ball and flag and drop
c) Drop 2 club lengths from where the ball lay

2. There could possibly have been a local rule for "Ornamental Trees - Staked or Under 2 club lengths in height" - Free relief can be taken

3. Try to play as it lies.

You can declare your ball unplayable at any time (unless in a water hazard) regardless of the local rules. I think in this case the young bloke is taking "Play as it lies" too literally. What if the ball was stuck in a 20m high tree, is he expected to climb it and hit the ball?

[AndyP]

Playing it as it lies didn't stop Happy Gilmore.

[rubin]

Playing it as it lies didn't stop Happy Gilmore.

we'll try that at the WA champs.

Pieface can be the giant.
Yoss can be happy.

[markTHEblake]

but he refused to sign the card if I took relief
He is not entitle to refuse to sign your card if he thinks you breached a rule - no matter whether he is right or wrong.
See Definitions, Marker: ..."He is not a referee" and also page 56.
In a nutshell the marker signs to attest that is the score that the competitor said he had. If the marker disagrees he must report this to the committee. If in the case the marker refuses to sign the card because he being a nob, the committee will sign the card for the player anyway. Thus the threat " i will not sign your card" is an empty one.


All that happened is he hit before you were able to mark it, a breach of etiquette, but not a breach of the rules.
My interpretation is that the player can be disqualified by the committee. Rule 22-1b, i read the last sentence competitors as also meaning competitor.


and at what point do the official R&A rules 'over-rule' the local rules?
The Committee cannot modify or waive the rules of golf without approval from the R&A. such actions in extreme circumstances could a club to lose its affiliation and rounds played at such a course could be handicapped.

[Minor_Threat]

My interpretation is that the player can be disqualified by the committee. Rule 22-1b, i read the last sentence competitors as also meaning competitor.Having just re-read what IanO posted I have to agree. It seems both players were in agreement that the ball could assist another ball and therefore it should have been marked.

[markTHEblake]

I just read the Rule 22 decisions, and I am less certain now.

Its also clear there is no penalty if a player asked for a ball to be replaced. Decision 22/5

[Minor_Threat]

I just read the Rule 22 decisions, and I am less certain now.

Its also clear there is no penalty if a player asked for a ball to be replaced. Decision 22/5How can another player ask for a ball to be replaced? What reason other than to be of asstance would the player want a ball replaced? I can't see how you can force a player to replace their ball?

[markTHEblake]

you will need to read the decision yourself to get it.


How can another player ask for a ball to be replaced?
Asking is not against the rules.


I can't see how you can force a player to replace their ball?
a special blend of psychology and extreme violence would probably work quite well.

[Minor_Threat]

you will need to read the decision yourself to get it.

Asking is not against the rules.

a special blend of psychology and extreme violence would probably work quite well.Ahhh ok I get it now. You can ask and not be penalised and the player is nor required to replace to the ball. Is the decisions book available in an online version?

[rubin]

there is indeed.

http://www.randa.org/en/Rules-and-Amateur-Status/Rules-of-Golf.aspx

[markTHEblake]

Is the decisions book available in an online version?

yes, and it took me ages to find it in the new layout :-(
you just look up a particular Rule, and the decisions are in the same panel.

[mike]

Here's one regarding my home course that has always confused me.

Hole #5. The grey line is the desired path. The yellow line represents a mesh fence that acts as protection for players on the 4th tee and 3rd green.

http://i512.photobucket.com/albums/t325/yumbotto/mba5-2.jpg

Let's say you **** up your tee shot and end up against the mesh fence. The path you would take from there is to bunt it out on a line parallel to the fence to get back in play.
However, if I were to go directly at the green the fence would impede my swing. So technically I get a free drop away from the fence. Correct or not.

[mike]

You don't have to mark it, but he can't ask you to leave it there either.What about in a 4BBB. Can you ask your partner to replace his ball?

[markTHEblake]

However, if I were to go directly at the green the fence would impede my swing. So technically I get a free drop away from the fence. Correct or not.

Depends, is it reasonable for you to go directly at the green or not?

Rule 24-2, Exception.

In any case it is unlikely that such a drop is going to get the player a shot at the green anyway, as he would still have to hit over it.

[mike]

Depends, is it reasonable for you to go directly at the green or not?

No. The fence is ten foot high. But dropping away may get you a better angle at getting back on the fairway.

Last year sometime I saw someone in the group ahead take a drop on the GREEN SIDE of the fence. (I was waiting on the 4th tee) I asked if he can do that and he said he could drop on that side providing he was no closer to the green. How does that one sound?

[markTHEblake]

No. The fence is ten foot high. But dropping away may get you a better angle at getting back on the fairway.

It depends on whether the shot he intended to play which is being obstructed, was reasonable. By virtue of the fact that he claims he wanted a drop because he wished to aim at the green, and then does not aim at the green after taking relief, would be enough to prove his intentions were not reasonable.



How does that one sound?
if that was his nearest point of relief not nearer the hole, then fine.

[mike]

It depends on whether the shot he intended to play which is being obstructed, was reasonable. By virtue of the fact that he claims he wanted a drop because he wished to aim at the green, and then does not aim at the green after taking relief, would be enough to prove his intentions were not reasonable.Fair enough but wasn't Ian Poulter involved in something like this last year. Had no intention of doing something or other but took relief anyway? I'll look it up.




if that was his nearest point of relief not nearer the hole, then fine.Nearest point of relief was not on the green side of the fence.

[mike]

I'll look it up.Cancel that. I was thinking of something else.

[Sasquatch]

If a bunker is GUR what is the reference point for the drop? Point of entry, balls finishing position or the whole bunker itself?

10975

[Minor_Threat]

If a bunker is GUR what is the reference point for the drop? Point of entry, balls finishing position or the whole bunker itself?

10975The reference point is the nearest point of relief to where your ball lay, no closer to the hole.

[Sasquatch]

Thanks MT.

[markTHEblake]

Fair enough but wasn't Ian Poulter involved in something like this last year. Had no intention of doing something or other but took relief anyway? I'll look it up.

The best example I can give you is this;
My ball us up a tree, and I cant take a normal stance at all, so i elect to chip it out lefthanded. In the left handed stance, a protective screen interferes with my backswing.

As my intention to play a left handed shot is a reasonable one, I am entitled to relief from the screen. Now that I have taken my drop, there is no obligation for me to play my shot left handed anymore.

A point worth noting is that the nearest point of releif from the ball washer my well be further into the tree than my ball originally was, but then i have 1 clublength from that point to drop it, plus roll. Many golfers seem to think that nearest point of relief from an obstruction excludes any other kind of obstruction - definitely not.

[markTHEblake]

Nearest point of relief was not on the green side of the fence.
As long as he dropped within 1 club length of the nearest point of releif and it rolled less then 2 club lengths and provided complete relief from the obstruction then its ok. If not then he has breached.

A clever golfer could easily manufacture a way to get on the other side of the fence, even I managed to do it once

[mike]

Wow MTB you know a lot about rules.

What happens if my ball is vapourized by an alien spacecraft half way through my downswing? Air swing?

[markTHEblake]

Wow MTB you know a lot about rules.
plenty i dont know, i have been caught out about 3 times this year.


What happens if my ball is vapourized by an alien spacecraft half way through my downswing? Air swing?


Rule 18.1 "it is a question of fact whether a ball has been moved by an outside agency"

Therefore:
If Aliens exist, then you can replace with another ball without penalty, and the stroke did not count (see definitions of a stroke, you cant attempt to hit a ball that does not exist).

If Aliens do not exist, That would be a Lost ball (Rule 18-1 'Note',), no stroke (see definition of a stroke), and then you take a stroke and distance penalty and return to where you played the previous shot from. But if i was your playing partner I would be telephoning the rubber bus as soon as possible.

[mike]

Thanks for that.

[Daves]

So theoretically, I have flown the green on the last hole and ended up in the trees in a pile of shit covered by a Cardno towel. It is obvious someone ( to remain at this stage unnamed) has already taken relief on this spot!, am I allowed relief also?

Should we have posted signs on the spot for the next poor bastard that ends up there?

In matchplay are you allowed to "take relief" before finishing the match? or do you have to hold it in?

Are turtleheads outside agencies?

Is continually have to take relief like this at various courses, a sign of other problems? How many Cardno towels can you have left?


:twisted::twisted::mrgreen::mrgreen:;)

[MegaWatty]

ROFL!

[markTHEblake]

So theoretically, I have flown the green on the last hole and ended up in the trees in a pile of shit covered by a Cardno towel. It is obvious someone ( to remain at this stage unnamed) has already taken relief on this spot!, am I allowed relief also?

The towel is a movable obstruction, the poo i think no. The rules only define animal poo as a an abnormal ground condition.


In matchplay are you allowed to "take relief" before finishing the match? or do you have to hold it in?read the rule " 6.8(iv)


Is continually have to take relief like this at various courses, a sign of other problems? How many Cardno towels can you have left?i once had to shit after the 1st and 3rd holes, and was close to walking off after 4 cos i had run out of towels. I take plenty of towels these days

[Ned]

Mobile Phone GPS Devices ?

Whats your interpretation of the R and A Ruling ?

[rubin]

Mobile Phone GPS Devices ?

Whats your interpretation of the R and A Ruling ?

I may be incorrect, but in terms of general usage, as long as it shows distance only (and not wind conditions, due points etc.) they are allowed.

Having said that, i've seen some courses in WA saying that GPS devices of any kind are not allowed during competition rounds (local rulings)

[markTHEblake]

Mobile Phone GPS Devices ?
Allowed


Whats your interpretation of the R and A Ruling ?
Allowed.

[markTHEblake]

Having said that, i've seen some courses in WA saying that GPS devices of any kind are not allowed during competition rounds.
What a bunch of wankers. Thats like saying 'kicking your ball" is not allowed during competition rounds.

[razaar]

The Rules of Golf permit Committess to make a local rule allowing players to use devicesthat measure or guage distance only. Any other function such as wind speed, gradient, temperature etc is not permitted under the Rules. If there is no local rule then the measuring device is not permitted.

[Ned]

Ok,

Played an event last year where mobiles were permitted as long as it was comfirmed that the sim card removed and held by the official or the phone was inoperable.

Ive got an old HTC phone that still works fine as GPS but wont work as a phone. (Bounced it on the concrete too many times)

[Courty]

Any other function such as wind speed, gradient, temperature etc is not permitted under the Rules.

Temperature? Really? Haven't heard that before. What possible advantage could be gained from knowing that it's 32 degrees?

[Johnny Canuck]

One of the big factors in the argument is that the iPhone has a compass. There's no way that they will be outlawed with the money behind then.

[markTHEblake]

Played an event last year where mobiles were permitted as long as it was comfirmed that the sim card removed and held by the official or the phone was inoperable.
Wankers.

http://www.randa.org/RandA/News/News/2010/August/Joint-Statement-on-Electronic-Devices.aspx

[MegaWatty]

One of the big factors in the argument is that the iPhone has a compass. There's no way that they will be outlawed with the money behind then.

In case you case find the green? It'd come in handy to find the next tee at North Lakes though!

[markTHEblake]

Temperature? Really? Haven't heard that before. What possible advantage could be gained from knowing that it's 32 degrees?

Ball will fly further/shorter depending on humidity levels. Temperature might have an impact on that too.

[mike]

So, what if I had one of these in my bag?

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_sWD6U0OjPK0/S8V__vWmSfI/AAAAAAAAACM/OFW9A6SMHVc/s1600/thermometer.jpg

[adlo]

Bloody hell Mike, ask a more obvious question why don't you. :roll:

[mike]

joke.

[adlo]

No shit.

[adlo]

Your sarcasm meter is broken Mike.

[mike]

Yeah it goes on the blink at times.

I have one of those in my golf bag too. It's in the same pocket as my thermometer. Also have a altimeter and a barometric pressure sensor.

[adlo]

Oh well, I guess Mike Spag is officially DQ'd from the "Most Popular Ozgolf Bag" race.

[PeteyD]

Temperature can effect how far the ball goes. In climates where it drops rapidly at the end of the day (like Scotland). In QLD it is kinda pointless.

[timah!]

So, what if I had one of these in my bag?

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_sWD6U0OjPK0/S8V__vWmSfI/AAAAAAAAACM/OFW9A6SMHVc/s1600/thermometer.jpg

I used to have one on my old wilson bag....

[razaar]

Temperature? Really? Haven't heard that before. What possible advantage could be gained from knowing that it's 32 degrees?
No idea, but it is mentioned in Decisions on the Rules of Golf.

[Ned]

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/_vW-f8QS75wg/TZV73vLvMsI/AAAAAAAABcM/CaBg6XH9S8w/s640/Demo%20Score%20Card.jpg

Would this card be legal to accept in a competition ?

[Minor_Threat]

Its not signed!

[Johnny Canuck]

No handicap!

[PeteyD]

Unless that is a signature on the RHS. Not in the correct place I guess. Aside from that any issues? each hole has a score.

[henno]

So he shot 1 over (I think?) and doesn't know how to mark and sign a card?

[paulyboy]

It's got crap writing on it

[Shadesy]

Can sign a card anywhere

[Yossarian]

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/_vW-f8QS75wg/TZV73vLvMsI/AAAAAAAABcM/CaBg6XH9S8w/s640/Demo%20Score%20Card.jpg

Would this card be legal to accept in a competition ?

It is illegal to us MS Paint to score a round?

[Ned]

It is illegal to us MS Paint to score a round?

Dunno, didnt use MS Paint!

[AndyP]

No date or handicap listed either.

[PeteyD]

Date is the responsibility of the comittee not the player (there is a ruling on that one. Oddly enough the names are as well). The big 4 could be a handicap.

[AndyP]

I seem to remember Gaz getting DQ'd for not putting his handicap down, but still lost the shots for a good round.

[Dotty]

Assuming those are the player and marker signatures in the 'marker' columns, and his handicap is 4, the only thing missing is the date.

Whether is a committee or player error, depends on how the committee handles Rule 33-5. (The committee must provide each player with a scorecard with date and the competitor's name ...) and the Note for 33-5. (The committee may request that each competitor records the date and their name ...)


Ooops. Too long typing long-winded response.

[AndyP]

Oh, it's a '4'. I thought it was separation lines or something.

[mike]

Haha. I think I know the story behind this. That's damn funny.

[PeteyD]

Out with it, or I'll find a Pinky answer again.

[mike]

"I think so, Brain, but what if the hippopotamus won't wear the beach thong?"Thanks again for the link PD.

[markTHEblake]

Would this card be legal to accept in a competition ?

well legal is not the right word, but I'd go with Dotty, if that is 4 for the handicap and the two squiggles are both signatures, then the committee has to accept that scorecard, even though it seems ridiculous with so many 2's and 1's as well.

However the committee has every right to call A Golfer, a wanker.

[Daves]

Is the card from the Rules Seminar that is doing the rounds at the moment?

[Ned]

Is the card from the Rules Seminar that is doing the rounds at the moment?

No, it's a replica from a past District event.

[Daves]

No, it's a replica from a past District event.

You should send them a copy. It would be a great exhibit to stir up the old farts at the Seminars!:evil:

[Ned]

You should send them a copy. It would be a great exhibit to stir up the old farts at the Seminars!:evil:

Golf Australia ruled on this senario!

[PeteyD]

And what was their ruling?

[mike]

Mossman Open a couple of years ago. 36 hole stroke event. Major event is gross, nett is meh.

Mr A. Golfer has a blinder on Saturday but fails to put his handicap on the card. He's disqualified. He argues that he shouldn't be disqualified from the gross event as handicap doesn't come into it. He's disqualified anyway.

On Sunday he plays because he's already paid for 36 holes and writes his handicap as above and signs in small writing somewhere.

Disqualified again.

My opinion is; he shouldn't have been disqualified in either instance. But that's just my opinion. I'm entitled to an opinion.

Should he have been DQ'd?

[PeteyD]

Pretty sure failure to put HC on card can be a DQ offense. Although as you say for a gross comp it is not really relevant.

[henno]

Mossman Open a couple of years ago. 36 hole stroke event. Major event is gross, nett is meh.

Mr A. Golfer has a blinder on Saturday but fails to put his handicap on the card. He's disqualified. He argues that he shouldn't be disqualified from the gross event as handicap doesn't come into it. He's disqualified anyway.

On Sunday he plays because he's already paid for 36 holes and writes his handicap as above and signs in small writing somewhere.

Disqualified again.

My opinion is; he shouldn't have been disqualified in either instance. But that's just my opinion. I'm entitled to an opinion.

Should he have been DQ'd?

Perhaps there was a max handicap for the event? (Like 10 and under, or something.)

Not saying I agree with the decision, jut throwing it out there as a silly reason they might have DQed him.

[markTHEblake]

mike. are we talking about steeley bloke again?

the rules are specific about recording handicap on a card, but i think this question came up in general discussion at the rules seminar i went in at the start of the year. might have been along the lines that gross and event are seperate competitions.

on the other hand if it is an amateur event then it is required that you have a handicap to be able to play even if it is a scratch event.

i am pretty sure when i played in the qld am. the scorecards had our handicap on them.

unless this decision is written down somewhere it remains ambiguous as everyone has a different answer, even i cant remember the official answer from a couple months ago.

[dc68]

What is the score written down on the 12th? a reverse c? Surely you can't accept it for that alone?

[andigold]

Mossman Open a couple of years ago. 36 hole stroke event. Major event is gross, nett is meh.

Mr A. Golfer has a blinder on Saturday but fails to put his handicap on the card. He's disqualified. He argues that he shouldn't be disqualified from the gross event as handicap doesn't come into it. He's disqualified anyway.

On Sunday he plays because he's already paid for 36 holes and writes his handicap as above and signs in small writing somewhere.

Disqualified again.

My opinion is; he shouldn't have been disqualified in either instance. But that's just my opinion. I'm entitled to an opinion.

Should he have been DQ'd?

I think you're right Mike and there is even a decision to support that view.

33-1/13 Competitor Disqualified from Handicap Event Claims Gross Prizehttp://www.usga.org/assets/0/1181/1514/5e6357ca-4421-4dab-a626-4a0fc8b9062c.gif
Q. In a stroke-play event, a competitor played off a higher handicap than that to which he was entitled. Although the event was primarily a handicap one, there was also a gross prize, and the competitor concerned had the lowest gross score.
The competitor was disqualified from the handicap competition under Rule 6-2b (http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14264#6-2), but he claimed the gross prize. Should he receive the gross prize?
A. Yes.

[Ned]

Mossman Open a couple of years ago. 36 hole stroke event. Major event is gross, nett is meh.

Mr A. Golfer has a blinder on Saturday but fails to put his handicap on the card. He's disqualified. He argues that he shouldn't be disqualified from the gross event as handicap doesn't come into it. He's disqualified anyway.

On Sunday he plays because he's already paid for 36 holes and writes his handicap as above and signs in small writing somewhere.

Disqualified again.

My opinion is; he shouldn't have been disqualified in either instance. But that's just my opinion. I'm entitled to an opinion.

Should he have been DQ'd?

Were you running this event mike ?

[TheNuclearOne]

Quick one


If a guy holds the stick straight as it's leaning prior and a player holes out from off the green with the stick still being held it's a penalty right?

[henno]

You have to be "fairly taking your stance" don't you. So I say, penalty.

Disclaimer: I know nothing.

[AndyP]

Another player is holding the flag, henno.

[henno]

Another player is holding the flag, henno.

Whoops. I read it as "holding a stick" thinking he was holding a branch with one hand while he swung with the other.

[mike]

Perhaps there was a max handicap for the event? (Like 10 and under, or something.)
No it was just a graded event. A grade up to 10. B grade 11 to 17. C grade 18 and up.



mike. are we talking about steeley bloke again?
Who?



What is the score written down on the 12th? a reverse c? Surely you can't accept it for that alone?The scorecard is a duplicate. It's not even the Mossman card.



Were you running this event mike ?I don't understand the relevance of this question. Of course I wasn't running the event.

[mike]

I think you're right Mike and there is even a decision to support that view.

33-1/13 Competitor Disqualified from Handicap Event Claims Gross Prizehttp://www.usga.org/assets/0/1181/1514/5e6357ca-4421-4dab-a626-4a0fc8b9062c.gif
Q. In a stroke-play event, a competitor played off a higher handicap than that to which he was entitled. Although the event was primarily a handicap one, there was also a gross prize, and the competitor concerned had the lowest gross score.
The competitor was disqualified from the handicap competition under Rule 6-2b (http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14264#6-2), but he claimed the gross prize. Should he receive the gross prize?
A. Yes.
Kapow !!

[TheNuclearOne]

Whoops. I read it as "holding a stick" thinking he was holding a branch with one hand while he swung with the other.

I believe this was altered a while back to allow a player to do so, but like you i know little lol

[Ned]

I don't understand the relevance of this question. Of course I wasn't running the event.

You played the event ?

[markTHEblake]

Who?
you know who, they guy i fingered as the cheat in one of the opens there, when you gave me 10 mins and i took 11, even though i only started after 5 mins.

[AndyP]

Quick one

If a guy holds the stick straight as it's leaning prior and a player holes out from off the green with the stick still being held it's a penalty right?Not necessarily. It depends on whether the player authorized the attending of the flag.

You can assume that he did unless the guy appeared out of nowhere. In that case, there is a penalty.

See rule 17-3.

They built Forum Runner on rock and roll

[haysey]

you know who, they guy i fingered as the cheat in one of the opens there, when you gave me 10 mins and i took 11, even though i only started after 5 mins.

Mareeba open. Half moon bay member. (allegedly)

[PeteyD]

No penalty for tending the flag. Pretty sure you can have it tended from wherever, now, although most people still think it is only when you are on the green. Might need s bit more of an explanation as to leaning etc.

[AndyP]

No penalty for tending the flag. Pretty sure you can have it tended from wherever, now, although most people still think it is only when you are on the green. Might need s bit more of an explanation as to leaning etc.

I've assumed that the ball has hit the flag while it was being held, which it must have since the flag is in the hole and the ball went in. This is a penalty.

They built Forum Runner on rock and roll

[Bruce]

A tended flag MUST be removed.

Andy is correct on rule 17-3. 2 shot penalty or loss of hole.

[mike]

you know who, they guy i fingered as the cheat in one of the opens there, when you gave me 10 mins and i took 11, even though i only started after 5 mins.I remember now. No it wasn't him. I don't think he's shown his face here since.

[Firey]

No penalty for tending the flag. Pretty sure you can have it tended from wherever, now, although most people still think it is only when you are on the green. Might need s bit more of an explanation as to leaning etc.
The rule is fairly plain on this one.

Rule 17-1 : Before making a stroke from anywhere on the course, the player may have the flagstick attended, removed or held up to indicate the position of the hole.

The words "held up" encompass situations whereby a leaning flagstick is straightened.

Also interesting to note that Decision 17-1/4.5 covers a situation where a flagstick is not only held upright behind the hole, but the end of the flagstick is touching the ground. Whilst it is allowed under the rules it not a recommended practice.

[mike]

Were you running this event mike ?No. I thought you were.



You played the event ?No. Why this line of questioning? If I didn't run the event or play in it does that mean I can't make comment?

[mike]

Here's one.

3rd hole at Mareeba has a water carry on the dogleg. Playing a practice round last Friday I went to clear it from the tee, clipped a branch and saw a splash.
I took a drop and played my shot. As I was walking to the green I found my ball on the fairway.
The splash must have been a branch.

By taking the drop and playing my third does that mean I've declared my tee shot lost?

[haysey]

By taking the drop and playing my third does that mean I've declared my tee shot lost?

I'll play. Yes. Did I win?

[Minor_Threat]

Here's one.

3rd hole at Mareeba has a water carry on the dogleg. Playing a practice round last Friday I went to clear it from the tee, clipped a branch and saw a splash.
I took a drop and played my shot. As I was walking to the green I found my ball on the fairway.
The splash must have been a branch.

By taking the drop and playing my third does that mean I've declared my tee shot lost?Did you call it a provisional?

[Johnny Canuck]

Did you drop at the original spot?

Did you find the original within 5 minutes of "looking".

[mike]

I'll play. Yes. Did I win?I don't know. That's why I'm asking you guys.


Did you call it a provisional?Was playing on my own. I'm just wondering what would happen if it was in a comp. I took a drop near the hazard. I had no idea my ball traveled as far as it did.

[mike]

Did you drop at the original spot?No. I dropped near the water.


Did you find the original within 5 minutes of "looking".I didn't bother looking. I thought it was in the water. fwiw I did find it well within 5 minutes.

[Johnny Canuck]

You can't hit a provisional if it is known or virtually certain that you are in a water hazard.

Mike, here's your ruling:

http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Decision-26/#26-1/3

26-1/3

[Minor_Threat]

As suspected it wouldn't matter if you called it a provisional because you thought it was lost in a water hazard. Rule 27-2 states a provisional can only be played when a ball might be lost "outside" a water hazard.


a. Procedure
If a ball may be lost outside a water hazard or may be out of bounds, to save time the player may play another ball provisionally in accordance with Rule 27-1 . The player must inform his opponent in match play or his marker or a fellow-competitor in stroke play that he intends to play a provisional ball, and he must play it before he or his partner goes forward to search for the original ball.
If he fails to do so and plays another ball, that ball is not a provisional ball and becomes the ball in play under penalty of stroke and distance (Rule 27-1); the original ball is lost.
(Order of play from teeing ground – see Rule 10-3)

*Edit* JC beat me to it.

[Ferrins]

Last Saturday I hit my tee shot on the 8th at Tenterfield and the after a good search was found 365metres from the tee. There was a fair bit of discussion about the carry and whether somebody from another group had moved it. In the end, I just played it.

Is this a grey area or is it just play as it lies?

[mike]

Far out. How do you guys find these rules so quick?

[Minor_Threat]

Far out. How do you guys find these rules so quick?A bookmark to R&A "Rules Explorer" --> http://www.randa.org/en/Rules-and-Amateur-Status/Rules-of-Golf.aspx#/rules/

[TheNuclearOne]

A tended flag MUST be removed.

Andy is correct on rule 17-3. 2 shot penalty or loss of hole.


Cheers guys.

[markTHEblake]

By taking the drop and playing my third does that mean I've declared my tee shot lost?
Initial reactions to this confusing scenario might be;
(a) your ball on the fairway is in play and you have incurred a two stroke penalty for playing a wrong ball from the hazard.
(b) As you declared your ball lost "in the hazard" the new ball you put into play under one penalty remains the ball in play, but you are penalised further for playing a ball from the wrong place, and have to rectify that, but how.

Neither.
As there was reasonable evidence that your ball was in the hazard, the ball you dropped under one penalty stroke becomes the ball in play regardless of the fact that the original was later found. Its a case of stiff bikkies, because once you put the new ball in play there is no turning back. There is no subsequent penalty for playing from a wrong place.

A perfect example of the rules of golf being sensible.

[Ned]

Why this line of questioning? If I didn't run the event or play in it does that mean I can't make comment?

Clariiying.

Where did I say you couldnt comment ?

So you didnt take part in the running of the event,

You didnt play in the event,

When did you find out about it and where ?

[mike]

Initial reactions to this confusing scenario might be;
(a) your ball on the fairway is in play and you have incurred a two stroke penalty for playing a wrong ball from the hazard.
(b) As you declared your ball lost "in the hazard" the new ball you put into play under one penalty remains the ball in play, but you are penalised further for playing a ball from the wrong place, and have to rectify that, but how.

Neither.
As there was reasonable evidence that your ball was in the hazard, the ball you dropped under one penalty stroke becomes the ball in play regardless of the fact that the original was later found. Its a case of stiff bikkies, because once you put the new ball in play there is no turning back. There is no subsequent penalty for playing from a wrong place.

A perfect example of the rules of golf being sensible.Thanks. I was confused. Then I wasn't, then I was confused again.

[mike]

Clariiying.

Where did I say you couldnt comment ?

So you didnt take part in the running of the event,

You didnt play in the event,

When did you find out about it and where ?Why ask this? You know very well where I heard it.

[MegaWatty]

Blakey's post is the easiest to understand.

[Johnny Canuck]

Mike and Ned's should be in a WA thread.

[markTHEblake]

Blakey's post is the easiest to understand.

thats why I took so long to write it, you gotta go the extra mile for mikey.

[MegaWatty]

And me.

It's easier to read it in the thread than an external page.

You done well. ;)

[markTHEblake]

its annoying that you cant copy/paste from Randa.org though, I suspect that is because if the rule changes the prefer people go to the source rather than copies. Still they do not even seem to make it easy to link a URL

[Minor_Threat]

its annoying that you cant copy/paste from Randa.org though, I suspect that is because if the rule changes the prefer people go to the source rather than copies. Still they do not even seem to make it easy to link a URLI copy and pasted the text from 27-2 earlier tonight in this thread?

[mike]

mike. are we talking about steeley bloke again?


Who?


you know who, they guy i fingered as the cheat in one of the opens there, when you gave me 10 mins and i took 11, even though i only started after 5 mins.Just so people know what we're talking about read this thread. (http://www.ozgolf.net/showthread.php/9517-Leather-Wedge/page2?highlight=mareeba) Read posts #43 thru #62.

Nothing gets past blake.

[markTHEblake]

Nothing gets past blake.

except so it seems the ability to copy and paste from randa.org :-(

Limitation of Firefox+Flash/Operating system (Ubuntu) I expect, so I shall let myself off this time.

[PeteyD]

I've assumed that the ball has hit the flag while it was being held, which it must have since the flag is in the hole and the ball went in. This is a penalty.

They built Forum Runner on rock and roll

Didn't realise the ball hit the pin. That is the penalty. Ball going into hole with tended flag, is a penalty, as the ball hits thd pin.

[TheNuclearOne]

Heard a great one today, this rule has supposedly been changed in recent history.

If your ball is sitting resting against a stick (on a hardpan side slope as it so happened) the mate said you can now mark behind it, move the stick and if your ball moves you simply replace it for no penalty. I was extremely dubious and quite concerned as this pair were on +11 in a 4ball scratch with 3 to play. Unbelievably the ball did not move when the stick was picked up and either way things worked out by the book and another + was gained as they powered to +13 which will surely win the day.

Can anybody verify this new take? I am still extremely dubious but totally in the dark.

[MegaWatty]

+1 dubious. I say no way!

[Dotty]

Sounds like he has forgotten the 'On the putting green' qualifier in both Rules 23-1 (Loose Impediments - Relief) and 18-2a (Ball at rest moved - By player, etc.)

It has all the credibility of Hopoate's Rugby League brainwave a few years ago.

[TheNuclearOne]

The mate is reknowned for rooting rules up. Thank christ the ball didn't move. The younger lad took his word for it but myself and his dad were standing 5 meters away saying noway. The mate still thinks he can break branches off and pats down the rough with the FW behind the ball setting up.

[markTHEblake]

that is not even one for the rules gurus I am afraid.

[Bruce]

A rules novice should be able to handle that one.

There's nothing there even remotely difficult to get right.

[Daves]

Did he keep a straight face whilst he told you the "rule" TNO?

[markTHEblake]

Here is an case for discussion for the same rule

I Played in a pro-am with my old boss (in civilian life) who is now a pro. He had an impeccable career as an amateur, played for QLD for over 10 years, and became a mature age professional in his late 30's, thus on all accounts I'd always concede to his wisdom on anything golf. (thats a key point for this incident)

We wandered into the sticks to look for our respective balls, we saw mine first covered by a huge fallen branch. It was going to be impossible to move without moving the ball and equally impossible to hit it. My initial reaction was I would need to take an unplayable lie to improve my line.

Before I had a chance to do or say anything, as he was walking well ahead of me, he picks up said branch tosses it to the side and puts my ball back where it was. I said something like "hey" and he just says something like that I cant do that, but he can, so I shrugged my shoulders and played the ball as it lies.

Does anyone think that any particular ruling here is relevant, or is it just the 'rub of the green'. By definition he is an outside agency, and I did not ask him to do that, nor could I have prevented it.

[Sydney Hacker]

Has to be something more then rub of the green surely???

I played a couple of weeks ago and left a putt 2 inches short on the first hole, one of my group tapped it in.

Going on the above could I have claimed it as a birdie since it was an outside agency who I didn't ask to touch my ball ?

For the record I asked him to replace it so I could putt out.

[markTHEblake]

Going on the above could I have claimed it as a birdie since it was an outside agency who I didn't ask to touch my ball ?

No you couldnt claim that going on the above.

[rubin]

wouldn't you have to re-create the lie blakey?

[markTHEblake]

anyone remember where we discussed whether Smartphones were conforming devices to be used as DMD's
am pretty sure it was an off-topic one.

[rubin]

i believe its on pg 6 of this same thread