Question for the spin gurus

[Webster]

I played yesterday with a mate who has one of those flash new Cleveland zip groove wedges. Using both ProV1's and Callaway Tour i balls, almost every shot off this new sand wedge was shredding the cover of the ball and leaving some of the cover embedded in the grooves.

The question that came up was, if the grooves are so sharp that they are grabbing the balls cover and ripping it off, what impact does this have on how much spin the wedge generates on say clean dry shots. ie, if the spin is caused by compression off the clubface, when the ball leaves the clubface and it has to detach the parts of the cover left behind (ie break away), does this reduce the spin rate of the ball as opposed to the same wedge that would not break the surface of the ball all other things being equal?

Hope this makes sense, as it is not all that easy to describe.

Ta, Jack.

[MegaWatty]

I was talking to Boz the other day about the Cally X20s shearing a Vision X3 and my Mizzys not.

Long and the short of it was that your explanation Jack is pretty spot on. At least it's what sticks in my mind as the same thing that Boz was saying.

[razaar]

Shouldn't have much effect on the spin but will reduce the amount of sliding the ball does on the face. The ball will come off the face at a lower angle with the sharp groove edges. Besides, the Rules of Golf state that grooves must not have sharp edges or raised lips(page 160). Your mates grooves may not conform to the R & A's design requirements for clubs.

[Webster]

razaar there is nothing non conforming about my mates wedge - its a brand new Cleveland and I have seen quite a few of them, and others , do the same thing. What I am interested in is what happens at the split second moment of time when the ball is trying to leave the clubface but has to first break itself away from being stuck in the grooves. Does this reduce the amount of spin on the ball?

[razaar]

The ball compresses on the face and begins to slide up the face because the loft is greater than the angle of the clubhead into the ball. The amount the ball slides is controlled by friction. The sldiing stops when the ball reaches its maximum spin rate at which time it rebounds off the face.

If the grooves are legal then it is not the grooves shredding the ball but the roughness of the sand blasting combined with the amount the ball is compressed.

[Webster]

razaar you are missing the point. the grooves are cutting the ball cover. What happens when the ball tries to leave the clubface but has to break first?

[razaar]

No Jack you are the one missing the point>

[Webster]

no you are

[Minor_Threat]

hahaha..

My Vokey rusties are constantly shredding the cover off V1x's. Im not sure of the physics of it, but I know that when this occurs the shot always spins like crazy. More so than when the cover isn't shredded!

[Grunt]

Hey even my R7 Draws eat balls, I still dont get much spin.

[TheTrueReview]

Jack,

Could it be his angle of attack into the ball?

[3oneday]

when the ball leaves the clubface and it has to detach the parts of the cover left behind (ie break away), does this reduce the spin rate of the ball as opposed to the same wedge that would not break the surface of the ball all other things being equal?
I would think of this in line with how a sanding belt works ? If something is brushing the surface with pace, the first thing that is affected is the painted or outer surface is it not ? You are then talking about a very fine layer of the ball, so one could argue that the tiny piece of paint or outer layer left on the face and the fact it was ripped off, would not affect spin because the strike has already effected the spin.

However, if anything the fact that the ball has potentially stayed on the face longer what MT said may be in fact more true, it spins more.

[razaar]

no you are

:lol:

[dan]

The difference would be minimal. Except he might have to change his ball to putt.... (if the cut is that bad).

[TheNuclearOne]

I can't believe you scrubbed out such a big sermon Raz!

[mint]

The question that came up was, if the grooves are so sharp that they are grabbing the balls cover and ripping it off, what impact does this have on how much spin the wedge generates on say clean dry shots. ie, if the spin is caused by compression off the clubface, when the ball leaves the clubface and it has to detach the parts of the cover left behind (ie break away), does this reduce the spin rate of the ball as opposed to the same wedge that would not break the surface of the ball all other things being equal?

Ta, Jack.

Sorry for the long answer Jack but here is the technical reason why it WILL reduce spin in the longrun.

A ball moving through air experiences two major aerodynamic forces, Lift & Drag. Dimpled balls fly farther than non-dimpled balls due to the combination of two effects.

Firstly, the dimples on the surface of a golf ball cause the boundary layer on the upstream side of the ball to transition from laminar to turbulent. The turbulent boundary layer is able to remain attached to the surface of the ball much longer than a laminar boundary and so creates a narrower, low pressure, wake and hence less pressure drag. The reduction in pressure drag causes the ball to travel further.

Secondly, backspin generates lift by deforming the airflow around the ball, in a similar manner to an airplane wing (TheMagnus Effect). A backspinning ball experiences an upward lift force which makes it fly higher and longer than a ball without spin..

So Aerodynamically if the ball is compromised in any shape or form (may it be from shredding or dimples full of dirt) it WILL effect the rate of spin wheras your club that doesnt break away ball fragments will not.

[Moe Norman]

Jack,

It's not the grooves shreddding the ball, it is the milled face.

My old 588 RTG's sometimes take a bit off a new pill, but I don't notice any extra/less spin when it happens

[razaar]

I can't believe you scrubbed out such a big sermon Raz!
Some of it may have been subject to copyright which I took from a scientific publication - to help my mate Jack find an answer to his question.;)

[3oneday]

So, did they spin betterer than his last wedges ?

[TheNuclearOne]

Some of it may have been subject to copyright which I took from a scientific publication - to help my mate Jack find an answer to his question.;)


Master Cochran i presume?

[razaar]

Master Cochran i presume?
Of course, it is the only one we have access to. Think we should tell mint?

[Webster]

Jack,

It's not the grooves shreddding the ball, it is the milled face.


No its the grooves. They are full of ball shred (?). The milled areas are clean.

Raz thanks for the revised info.

[Moe Norman]

yes Jack, but the milling rips it off the ball, but the compression then forces it into the grooves, as they are the deepest 'collection areas' for it to go.

[Webster]

moe you are full of shit...no idea...

[sms316]

They are full of ball shred (?).

Sounds ghey.

[Webster]

Sounds ghey.

could be a "plucked chicken" type of gheyness perhaps???

[mint]

Of course, it is the only one we have access to. Think we should tell mint?

yeah go on tell him :) haha

[Tex]

Postulating via a thought experiment : If you had a ball hanging stationary in the air spinning freely on a horizontal axis, and you took a particular club and struck at the ball in a manner and angle similar to that as would occur in a golf swing (excluding the influence of compression with the ground) then the club which imparted the most kenetic energy to the ball would cause it to spin more (as it left the club face).

Ergo; a club that had the capability to grip (and rip) the surface of the ball would impart more kenetic energy than one that did not grip (ref: slip) as well.

Addendum: there would be an optimum amount of grip vs rip (tendency to cut) which would depend on the strength of the ball compared with the strength of the swing

[mint]

Postulating via a thought experiment : If you had a ball hanging stationary in the air spinning freely on a horizontal axis, and you took a particular club and struck at the ball in a manner and angle similar to that as would occur in a golf swing (excluding the influence of compression with the ground) then the club which imparted the most kenetic energy to the ball would cause it to spin more (as it left the club face).

Ergo; a club that had the capability to grip (and rip) the surface of the ball would impart more kenetic energy than one that did not grip (ref: slip) as well.

Addendum: there would be an optimum amount of grip vs rip (tendency to cut) which would depend on the strength of the ball compared with the strength of the swing

Tex, although your grip vs rip theory has merit what you have overlooked is the balls movement through the air and how that impacts the backspin on the ball. The dimples in the ball allow the appropriate rotation of the ball in flight depending on the loft of the club, speed etc.

[Tex]

Tex, although your grip vs rip theory has merit what you have overlooked is the balls movement through the air and how that impacts the backspin on the ball. The dimples in the ball allow the appropriate rotation of the ball in flight depending on the loft of the club, speed etc.

Hi Mint, I never overlooked it at all, I just never took the "ball in flight" as part of the question asked, rather, only up to that point it left the club face (or at least immediately thereafter) :)


I played yesterday with a mate who has one of those flash new Cleveland zip groove wedges. Using both ProV1's and Callaway Tour i balls, almost every shot off this new sand wedge was shredding the cover of the ball and leaving some of the cover embedded in the grooves.

The question that came up was, if the grooves are so sharp that they are grabbing the balls cover and ripping it off, what impact does this have on how much spin the wedge generates on say clean dry shots. ie, if the spin is caused by compression off the clubface, when the ball leaves the clubface and it has to detach the parts of the cover left behind (ie break away), does this reduce the spin rate of the ball as opposed to the same wedge that would not break the surface of the ball all other things being equal?

Hope this makes sense, as it is not all that easy to describe.

Ta, Jack.

[mint]

ah ha

[TheBoz_fromOz]

Shouldn't have much effect on the spin but will reduce the amount of sliding the ball does on the face. The ball will come off the face at a lower angle with the sharp groove edges. Besides, the Rules of Golf state that grooves must not have sharp edges or raised lips(page 160). Your mates grooves may not conform to the R & A's design requirements for clubs.

Hey Raz, you almost had it. If the grooves are so sharp as to shear the cover the ball is therfore able to slide marginally further
up the face for a higher launch angle and the lack of grab between the grooves and the ball will marginally reduce the potential
spin of the ball at launch.

Hi Jack, what you are also seeing in the grooves is paint as it is very difficult to make extremely durable paint and sharp grooves
will rip straight into it not allowing it to flex and stay intact.

Anyway thats how I tend to see it, cheers, Boz.

[razaar]

Hey Raz, you almost had it. If the grooves are so sharp as to shear the cover the ball is therfore able to slide marginally further
up the face for a higher launch angle and the lack of grab between the grooves and the ball will marginally reduce the potential
spin of the ball at launch.

Hi Jack, what you are also seeing in the grooves is paint as it is very difficult to make extremely durable paint and sharp grooves
will rip straight into it not allowing it to flex and stay intact.

Anyway thats how I tend to see it, cheers, Boz.
Good one Boz. Jack assures us that the grooves are conforming, being new wedges.;)

[TheBoz_fromOz]

Yes Raz I thought as much and brand new grooves are still the worst for most balls as the latest rule grooves are
still quite sharp compared to V grooves but a bit of bunker practice can dull the edges up enough to reduce the
shearing. Boz.

[goonie]

I can't believe it but I have to agree with Jack on this one (mostly), I have had several different wedges over the years, some have had milled faces but my current Nike VR's and Cally X-forged (Vintage) don't, and my current wedges shred the ball more than any other wedges I have had, and it's not just paint, they can leave cuts in the ball and if I use surlyn covered balls they can remove the tops around the dimples, they make a complete mess of range balls, I can hit range balls with my 52* and I have to remove bits of ball from every groove that came into contact with the ball, then I can hit my 47* PW which has a rougher face and it doesn't cut the ball at all.
The biggest difference with these new wedges is the larger sharper U grooves. And even after 12+ months of weekly play they still cut the ball up, they also spin the ball more than any other wedges I've had by a fair margin as well. sorry jack but I can't agree with you on the less spin.

[markTHEblake]

The grooves on my wedges are full of bright green stuff, and I cant figure out why.

[markTHEblake]

Ok, here is a question for the guru's

Some times when i hit a perfectly timed pitch shot, ie ball first then divot off the fairway, why does the grass embedded in my wedges grooves have the round shape of a ballmark?

Logic tells me i must have hit it fat, but I thought I could tell the difference

[razaar]

Probably because the ball squishes on the face before it rebounds. Can you see a ball imprint on the face of your driver?

[TheBoz_fromOz]

Hi MB. Even though you might get the ball first you are still pushing the surrounding grass against the ball at contact which you
can't feel , I would think a slow motion video would show that up quite clearly or not .Cheers. Boz.

PS still working on improving the flex in the covers and therfore improving the shear resitance. Vision balls a Work in Progress.:-)

[Bushka]

But a pretty sexy looking work in progress i must say

[markTHEblake]

you are still pushing the surrounding grass against the ball

Yeah now that you mention it, makes a lot of sense, probably at least 3-5mm of grass that the club has to get through before there is any resistance from the ground, which could convert to a cm or two of horizontal movement of the club. The clipped grass moves up the clubface, then the ball is compressed into it.

Then that would explain why grooves help impart more spin even off fairways especially if they are lush, not so much if they are very tightly mowed. Therefore if someone wants to prove that new wedges are spinnier, then hit them off a pool table.