Chrome finish or not

[razaar]

With the new groove rule for the tours, will we see clubs with chrome finishes in players bags or will we see more raw finishes in forged heads or some other coating?

[TourFit]

With the new groove rule for the tours, will we see clubs with chrome finishes in players bags or will we see more raw finishes in forged heads or some other coating?

For those guys it doesn't really matter...they won't develop more spin with different finishes. It is just what is available/can do for their individual companies and also what the player personal preference is!

[grandmasterb]

I agree with TF, i dont think it will matter what finish they use the pro's will be playing the same way they were with the old wedges in no time.

I can see golf turning out like other sports with the "powers to be" changing/modifying rules to "help" the sport but all its really doing is helping those deep pockets of a select few become fuller...

[henno]

Relax club restrictions again, allow development, and implement a control ball (or balls) for the pros. It works in motorsport with hard/soft compound tyres and the like where despite the "control" nature of the tyres, racers can choose a compound they like with certain trade-offs such as durability versus grip. In golf that could be spin versus distance and/or forgiveness for side-spin and wind. Like GMB and TF have said, I expect the pros to be playing their normal game again pretty soon.

[razaar]

It is not about spin but launch angle. A smooth face has some sliding up the face on compression which converts to roll (which is the point of maximum spin) before the ball rebounds off. The square grooves will have reduced the amount of sliding particularly on chrome faces where the sand blasting has worn off. Science tells us that the rougher the face, the closer the ball will take off to the horizonal path of the clubhead.

[dhills2]

Interesting concept Henno but I think the logistics of introducing this & then policing it would be quite difficult.

Imagine the spectacle if there were an exhibition event each year on a tight links course where every player in the field had to use the same clubs (preferably persimmons & the least forgiving blades available) & the same balls (something with no distance and no spin)... once again, practically impossible to make it happen but would be awesome.

The PGA should introduce such an event which carries some Fedex pts but any prizemoney has to be donated by the player to a charity of his choice (or something similar which would almost oblige players to participate despite no money being involved). Something like this would also attract plenty of good press... as opposed to all the recent Tiger reports.

Obviously I've had too much coffee & crack for lunch today... but it seemed like a cool idea at the time :)

[henno]

Interesting concept Henno but I think the logistics of introducing this & then policing it would be quite difficult.

As opposed to the logistics of producing entirely new ranges of conforming products and then policing the groove rule at each and every event?

The USGA and R&A make it no secret that their intention is to wind back ball development. I take this to mean ball distance, eventhough we often confuse it with greenside spin as being the issue. Do you really think that the USGA cares that Tiger can rip a ball back 10 feet on a green? No. All they care about is the fact that new balls can do that as well as fly 350m straight as an arrow. There really is no trade-off between distance and spin anymore.

So, why not put out a tender for a control ball of two or three "compounds": soft super-spin with far less distance; medium spin and medium distance; low spin and long distance. Let the manufacturers fight it out for the tender, which will keep ball development going for the amateurs. They could even colour-code them so the commentators and viewers could see which ball they have chosen to play on a particular course/hole/weather condition (much like the red stripe in motorsport).

[Iain]

It is not about spin but launch angle. A smooth face has some sliding up the face on compression which converts to roll (which is the point of maximum spin) before the ball rebounds off. The square grooves will have reduced the amount of sliding particularly on chrome faces where the sand blasting has worn off. Science tells us that the rougher the face, the closer the ball will take off to the horizonal path of the clubhead.

What's your point Raz? Do you mean with chrome that's worn off they'll get more fliers?

[Iain]

As opposed to the logistics of producing entirely new ranges of conforming products and then policing the groove rule at each and every event?

The USGA and R&A make it no secret that their intention is to wind back ball development. I take this to mean ball distance, eventhough we often confuse it with greenside spin as being the issue. Do you really think that the USGA cares that Tiger can rip a ball back 10 feet on a green? No. All they care about is the fact that new balls can do that as well as fly 350m straight as an arrow. There really is no trade-off between distance and spin anymore.

So, why not put out a tender for a control ball of two or three "compounds": soft super-spin with far less distance; medium spin and medium distance; low spin and long distance. Let the manufacturers fight it out for the tender, which will keep ball development going for the amateurs. They could even colour-code them so the commentators and viewers could see which ball they have chosen to play on a particular course/hole/weather condition (much like the red stripe in motorsport).

I think that would be great, but the manufacturers would sue the USGA and R&A. But they do need to do something.

I would like them to reduce driver head size as well....

[henno]

I think that would be great, but the manufacturers would sue the USGA and R&A

Probably, which is unfortunate. I wonder how the motorsport factions do it. When Bridgestone are the control tyre on the professional circuit, we still use Michelin, Good Year, Yokahama etc on our cars. They don't automatically go out of business.

[razaar]

What's your point Raz? Do you mean with chrome that's worn off they'll get more fliers?
No not fliers Ian. Chrome being very smooth will give a higher launch angle than stainless or some of the other finishes which are a chemical reaction with either carbon steel or stainless steel for the same loft and shaft configeration. It probably doesn't mean much to us, but I am sure it does to tour players. Now that I think about it, I did notice the tour players' forged clubs at a US Open all had a rust spot in the centre where the chrome had been worn off.
With the new groove in force, tour players and golf equipment companies will be looking at a range of things to get an advantage over the competition.

[dhills2]

Henno, re manufacturing conforming products.... what Iain said. I think your way of doing it is ideal but just can't see it happening. re policing... I guess it wouldn't be as much of a problem if your 'one manufacturer (via tender)' issued all tournament balls at the start of each tournament... but once again, first hurdle is too big IMHO.

I don't think the other manufacturers would survive in the amateur market if they didn't have the slogan of the winning tenderer "Use the ball the pros use". Unless.... the winning tenderer was somehow only permitted to produce balls for professional/Tour use.

They should also ban everything but 100% blade irons and make the holes bigger so that the Aussies move up the ranks :)

[henno]

I don't think the other manufacturers would survive in the amateur market if they didn't have the slogan of the winning tenderer "Use the ball the pros use". Unless.... the winning tenderer was somehow only permitted to produce balls for professional/Tour use.

While I agree, you are making the assumption that one ball would be used on all tours. There are scores of professional golf tours around the place. Sure, the US PGA is the pinnacle (excuse the pun) of the sport, but the control tyre/s for Formula 1 aren't the same control tyre for every other motorsport circuit around the globe. It could even be marketed as a regional advantage (i.e. "The best ball for Australian conditions" or some other throw-away marketing phrase.)

[dhills2]

You're right Henno... I didn't mean to make that assumption, it has just been a long day & I wazn't tinking berry well or berry muchy at orl.

[Iain]

Probably, which is unfortunate. I wonder how the motorsport factions do it. When Bridgestone are the control tyre on the professional circuit, we still use Michelin, Good Year, Yokahama etc on our cars. They don't automatically go out of business.

Depends, because a lot of amatuers like using the same equipment. Plus it creates a different set of rules for pro's and am's, which I'm not convinced is a good thing.

[TourFit]

Why not have a set of restrictions regarding the ball (as they do now) that each manufacturer can still produce their own individual models WITHIN those new parameters...thicker cover, harder mantles, smaller cores WHATEVER...but a "tournament" ball nonetheless. Then the development of the products can still continue within & between companies but still meet the new construction guidelines. Of course the easiest way to stop the ball flying so far is to firstly increase size...perhaps increase weight...

As usual, the powers that be have got it arse about and made it all more complicated than it needs to be...the whole groove rule is useless unless control on tournament balls are made in parallel. If a player wants a little more spin from his wedges under the new rules they may just switch to a slightly softer ball model...(may even end up back with Balata - or at least heading back that way!)

[Iain]

I agree with TF, but there's still the problem of manufacturers having spent so much money over the years on the current reg's. The USGA and R&A really need to consult with them to come to a consensus of what to change.

[markTHEblake]

Depends, because a lot of amatuers like using the same equipment. Plus it creates a different set of rules for pro's and am's, which I'm not convinced is a good thing.

Plenty of sports have different equipment rules for the pro's and am's (or whatever other distinction there may be between teh world stage and the rest). Tennis, squash and I believe baseball all use a different ball.


where every player in the field had to use the same clubs (preferably persimmons & the least forgiving blades available) & the same balls (something with no distance and no spin)

Such an event would be totally unfair for many golfers. Some golfers need low spin balls, others need high spin, and other characteristics to suit. The single ball rule will never work well in golf. What Henno suggests as a range of balls but with overall limitations is the go, that way the golfer can choose the ball best suited to his game. Obviously there has to be trade offs between distance and spin (a nightmare to legislate on its own), otherwise we will end up with another "proV" that goes further and spins more, and we are right back where we started.

[Moe Norman]

Plenty of sports have different equipment rules for the pro's and am's (or whatever other distinction there may be between teh world stage and the rest). Tennis, squash and I believe baseball all use a different ball.
.

Tennis use balls that are freely available for purchase

[Yossarian]

Can you buy test match cricket balls?

[dhills2]

Plenty of sports have different equipment rules for the pro's and am's (or whatever other distinction there may be between teh world stage and the rest). Tennis, squash and I believe baseball all use a different ball.


I'm fairly sure tennis, squash and baseball all used balls that were freely available for purchase. I know that you CAN use & purchase balls with different gradings (nothing unusual, it is that way with practically every sport) but as far as I'm aware the better amateurs use the same balls in these sports & perhaps cost is about the only factor which might hold amateurs back from using the same equip by choice.

I have hit tournament tennis balls (thanks to my best mate from school playing college and satellites) against ones from Rebel & couldn't spot a difference... I have played with double dot yellow squash balls & if there are lower bounce balls then wow! Finally, baseball used to be my sport so I have used balls from Olympic qualifiers, Aussie, Jap & US pro leagues... all very similar (mainly just slight differences in stitching). In actual fact, the most noticeable thing about those balls were that they were rock hard and had more raised stitching... so actually easier to move the ball pitching and easier to hit the ball further - hence some of the ridiculous things you see in MLB.

So Blakey, I respectfully disagree with you here.

[dhills2]

Such an event would be totally unfair for many golfers. Some golfers need low spin balls, others need high spin, and other characteristics to suit. The single ball rule will never work well in golf. What Henno suggests as a range of balls but with overall limitations is the go, that way the golfer can choose the ball best suited to his game. Obviously there has to be trade offs between distance and spin (a nightmare to legislate on its own), otherwise we will end up with another "proV" that goes further and spins more, and we are right back where we started.

Limited field, all players play 4 rounds, play each of the first three rounds with a different 'Henno' ball (player's choice for when they play each ball - depending on how they see conditions for each day) and then final round played with the player's favourite ball. Plus I didn't say it'd be fair... just said it'd be an awesome spectacle/fun exhibition to watch... worst case, make it a charity event with no pts up for grabs.

[markTHEblake]

I'm fairly sure tennis, squash and baseball all used balls that were freely available for purchase.

I didnt intend to suggest that they are not, that in fact would be rather silly. My point is only that an equipment limitation is placed on the Top tier of other sports, as it should be with golf, not withstanding the difficulties to do so.

[razaar]

Talk about getting side tracked. Some of you blokes are unbelieveable.

[Iain]

You should be used to it by now Raz!! :lol:

[dhills2]

Talk about getting side tracked. Some of you blokes are unbelieveable.

Well... the discussion around the original topic seemed to dry up & this seemed to be a pretty decent sidetrackin' threadjackin' topic :)

Could be worse... could be another [Particular forum member] vs The World thread!!

[Iain]

I think pro's will still use whatever type of coating they want, it just means they'll replace there irons/wedges more often.