Bushka's Swing

[Bushka]

Been playing about 12 months now so don't worry about being gentle I understand the road is long.

Driver (only image i got that really had me in it....first effort with video ipod theres a good lesson in check where the things pointing before pressing record.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=reGAMGEzSeY

9 iron at my clubs range.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DJdxJby_HBc

I pull the ball a lot, not massively but i tend to start on target line, then it moves 10 mtrs to the left.

Appreciate any feedback from those that know.

[henno]

That's the best swing I've ever seen on a 26-handicapper. I'm sure the swing gurus will eventually pipe up with areas to work on, but for only just picking up the game I think you're doing very well.

[JohnLLL]

Yeah looks very nice. Great swing to start off with..very natural. What lessons have you had?

[razaar]

Good stuff, you are doing real well for such a short time. Couldn't see much to comment on the swing itself except that the clubface looks to be very open at the top (the face is facing horizontal) which means you have to loop the swing inside at the start of the downswing to get the clubhead on the ball/target plane. That is why it is so important to have the shoulders square (parallel)to the target line. Yours look to be pointing left of target. Hope this helps.

[Iain]

Good stuff, you are doing real well for such a short time. Couldn't see much to comment on the swing itself except that the clubface looks to be very open at the top (the face is facing hoizontal) which means you have to loop the swing inside at the start of the downswing to get the clubhead on the ball/target plane. That is why it is so important to have the shoulders square (parallel)to the target line. Yours look to be pointing left of target. Hope this helps.

Look's pretty square to me?? Hard to tell, but if anything it's maybe shut slightly? ie clubface pointing to the sky? Edit - But they may be because of the flat swing plane??

[Daves]

Look's pretty square to me?? Hard to tell, but if anything it's maybe shut slightly? ie clubface pointing to the sky?

I thought that too!?

Nothing much I can add other than your driver tempo looks better than your iron tempo which seems a tad rushed.

[Bushka]

Awesome.

The pro down at Manly is a great teacher and he has overhauled me in the past couple of weeks making me concentrate totally on being relaxed loading up with soft hands and being natural with it, and trying to get lag on the club head.

My main issue is as I mentioned I Pull to the left a bit, the flight is great and distance is consistent but it's not going straight.

@Daves.

Thanks for the feedback mate. Tempo's something i've struggled with.

[Daves]

Been playing about 12 months now so don't worry about being gentle I understand the road is long.

Driver (only image i got that really had me in it....first effort with video ipod theres a good lesson in check where the things pointing before pressing record.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=reGAMGEzSeY

9 iron at my clubs range.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DJdxJby_HBc

I pull the ball a lot, not massively but i tend to start on target line, then it moves 10 mtrs to the left.

Appreciate any feedback from those that know.

Are you describing a pull or a heavy draw? If it starts on the target line and gradual moves left, that is a draw. A pull would something like 10 to 20 degrees left but pretty much straight.

[Iain]

Shoulders look pretty open to me, like Raz said, that could be causing the pulls?

[razaar]

Look's pretty square to me?? Hard to tell, but if anything it's maybe shut slightly? ie clubface pointing to the sky? Edit - But they may be because of the flat swing plane??
Look at the left hand at the top of the backswing; the clubface will follow where the back of the left hand is pointing. This means he is outside the correct plane if the hands don't drop down and slightly behind with the back of the left hand pointing more towards the sky (the clubhead lagging well behind the hands instead of above them).

[Bushka]

Razarr good stuff thanks for that. I think i see what you mean with the clubface. So i'm going back inside and then not dropping hands down inside along that line. I noticed on slowing it down that the return plane is shallower.

Theres a waggle the pro has shown me lately that i think i'm going to adopt where you move your wrists to the right and your hips/shoulders/spine slot into alignment naturally...if that makes sense.

I guess it's a draw but the thing is I'm starting with my alignment as square as i can get it at present but when i aim right of the target the ball tends to go straight and not gently waft in which kind of annoys me.

The shoulders not being square is something I hadn't noticed. I'm going to try that tomorrow afternoon and see if it makes the difference.

[Iain]

Only if you're left hand matches your clubface though??

He has a cup in his left hand, but the clubface is square (matching his arm), meaning he's using a slightly stronger grip.

[Bushka]

Yeah my grip is slightly strong. I started out with the usual massive slice and changed my grip to try to promote pronating through it, I have since reigned in what was a ridiculously strong grip to be just slightly clockwise on the grip.

This has been excellent feedback. Really given me some things to go forward with. I hadn't noticed the shoulders being a little open and I totally get what your saying with the hands not dropping inside on the way down.

Awesome will work on this stuff.

[razaar]

Only if you're left hand matches your clubface though??

He has a cup in his left hand, but the clubface is square (matching his arm), meaning he's using a slightly stronger grip.
Setting up with the right wrist straight at address with the left kinked will do the same. That's why many teachers recommed a straight left wrist in the address position with a kinked right wrist, which is what you want at impact. A kinked left wrist at impact is always on the cards with supernated wrist position at the top (forearm rolled anti-clockwise from the player's view).

[MegaWatty]

Wow! That's a fantastic swing for a 26 'capper!

Nice practice fairway. I wish I had access to an area to hit my own balls on.

[henno]

Strong grips and flat swings: a thing of beauty. :razz:

[MegaWatty]

Strong grips and flat swings: a thing of beauty. :razz:

I'm with you H.

[Bushka]

I'm going to try to get some side on video done, which will probably take the shine off it and give me even more to work on.

I have only had 4 rounds of comp and never get into a natural tempo during the round, I think that will change if I ever get the opportunity to play more.

I work about 5 minutes drive from my front door just up the road from the course so even though I never get to play I practice about 5 times a week during lunch or for an hour after work sometimes.

Thank you all so much for the feedback got more to focus on now :) Will update it as I progress.

[Iain]

Strong grips and flat swings: a thing of beauty. :razz:

Indeed.

[ParMaster]

It is a great swing you got there for a "26 handicapper." (BULLSHIT) ;)

You a member at Manly mate? They have pretty good practice facilities.

[Eag's]

Bushka, you have a swing a lot of low markers would be proud of mate.
You will improve in leaps and bounds if you stick with your current teacher :smt023

[LarryLong]

That looks a pretty good swing to me. Very fluent and relaxed. Either you chip and putt like a four year old using his Dad's clubs, or you're due for a big drop from your 26 handicap.

I watched it with the sound down, so I'm going to assume that you yell "Bushka!" every time you hit the driver. If you're not doing that, I suggest you do.

[ParMaster]

That looks a pretty good swing to me. Very fluent and relaxed. Either you chip and putt like a four year old using his Dad's clubs, or you're due for a big drop from your 26 handicap.

I watched it with the sound down, so I'm going to assume that you yell "Bushka!" every time you hit the driver. If you're not doing that, I suggest you do.

WTF :lol:

How far do you hit it Bushka? Tell us why you play off 26 mate?

[LarryLong]

You've never tried it Pup?

It's worth at least five metres. :)

Also works well if you yell it while other people are swinging.

[KristianJ]

WTF :lol:


You and him could compare reactions to pured down the guts shots if he does, Pup.

[ParMaster]

;)

I'm trying to refrain from commenting in my swing videos now. Instead I'm getting others to. (View my next video in 1 hour.)

;)

[henno]

9:01pm AEST... synchronise swatches!

[Bushka]

Yes i'm a member at Manly. The only problem is that the practice fairway is about 150 mtrs so the most I get to hit is an 8 iron.

I am off 26 because basically i never get to play comp due to young child and the fact that I work in real estate. So i work Saturdays and only get Sundays as a family day.

I practice heaps, but I end up putting too much pressure on myself when i do play comp and just loose my rhythm.

I hit it a pretty long way I'm about 6'5 and pretty hefty though so i've just focused in on trying to learn how to control the ball without going max out for distance.

I've only really started to get my swing together in the past month before that it's been all over the shop.

I went to the range tonight and took some side on vid and noticed that my weight distribution is rubbish I'll post it up when i get a chance and maybe that'll explain why i'm off 26 )

P.S Thanks everyone for the encouragement and the feedback. I tried keeping my hands inside as they dropped down from top of swing and for some reason my left leg goes totally wierd when i do this hahah. The leg bones connected to the....Hogan elbow?

[ParMaster]

I meant what part of your game makes you off 26? Your swing looks fine so why are you off a hcp that high. Do you have a bad short game or is it something else?

[Bushka]

No my short games better than my long game. Manlys only got 150 mtrs worth of range so I spend half my time chipping and pitching, and half my time hitting wedges 9 and 8 irons.

Mostly it's my inconsistent driving.

I loose rhythm and up until a few months ago was always fighting a slice, now it's fighting a draw and i don't get to play enough rounds of golf to have figured out how to put a score together.

Hopefully in the next few months i'll get that going.

[KristianJ]

9:01pm AEST... synchronise swatches!

Pup must be out skipping...

[Bushka]

heres 8 iron swing from side
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H1wIYg59bxM

Driver swing from side
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hcbi96DPdX4

My left leg /hip seems an issue.

Happy with my ball flight today and last night, trusting the draw seems to be helping, but the drivers still inconsistent.

[razaar]

heres 8 iron swing from side
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H1wIYg59bxM

Driver swing from side
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hcbi96DPdX4

My left leg /hip seems an issue.

Happy with my ball flight today and last night, trusting the draw seems to be helping, but the drivers still inconsistent.
Looks good bush. One suggestion - ensure the shaft and left forearm form a straight line at address with the right wrist showing a bit of flex. Check that the face is square by raising the shaft until it is parallel with the ground, the grooves should be 90* vertical.
The feeling you should have with this grip is chopping a tree down with an axe from a side on action with all the power going forwards. With your present action there is a hint of chopping the tree up as it lies on the ground. If that makes sense to you. Your left leg action looks fine to me in those swings.

[Toolish]

Overall mate that is a very solid swing for a 26 capper. A little bit of OTT (not bad by any stretch) could cause your pulls depending on what you are doing with the club face.

Sounds like mental game is a bit blocker for you...have you read bob rotella books, do you have a pre shot routine, have you read about clear keys.

Keep it lose and you will blow that handicap out of the water.

[Bushka]

Great feedback guys thanks very much.

I am going to start a solid pre shot routine, will practice it this afternoon. I think that could be one of the things that hurts my rhythm/tempo when i do eventually play 18 holes.

Raz. More great tips. I never noticed that left hand thing but your dead on. Can't wait to get down to the range this arvo and give it a run.

Really glad i joined the forum.

P.S Raz could that have something to do with where the ball is in my stance or should I be raising my left shoulder a little?

[Bushka]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l4mOtC_IVRc

Latest effort. I need to turn and fire my hips...I just freaking Can't this golf bats thing must require practice.

[henno]

I will repeat what I said earlier: you have the best swing on a 26-marker I've ever seen. I'd love to see where you are wasting all of your shots.

Obviously it's not perfect, but on a 26-cap I doubt it's your swing that is stopping you from dropping another 10 shots or more. Unless that swing just doesn't hold up once on the course?

[Bushka]

I will repeat what I said earlier: you have the best swing on a 26-marker I've ever seen. I'd love to see where you are wasting all of your shots.

Obviously it's not perfect, but on a 26-cap I doubt it's your swing that is stopping you from dropping another 10 shots or more. Unless that swing just doesn't hold up once on the course?

I drive like a lunatic and have no idea how to put it together in a comp. Plus i'm inconsistent anywhere but the practice range.

Virge is going to rip it to bits on Thursday i reckon.

[haysey]

Virge is going to rip it to bits on Thursday i reckon.


If he can help me out. (My swing is far worse than yours) I don't think you'll give him to many problems.

[virge666]

Bushy had no chance of playing decent golf.

His irons were 2.5" over standard which means he has absolutley NO CHANCE of releasing the clubhead. And guess what - he doesn't release the clubhead. His wedges were standard, his driver had a whippy Regular shaft in it, the 3 wood doesn;t have enough loft and the 5 wood was mint.

I grabbed all his clubs today, shortened them to 1/2" over STD, reshafted his Driver with an SST Pured shaft in Stiff, and weighted the wedges so they all match.

Lets see how we do on Thursday, but he was a mess.

[henno]

2.5 inches over? Sweet lord, no wonder. Watch that 26 handicap become 16 overnight.

[virge666]

2.5 inches over? Sweet lord, no wonder. Watch that 26 handicap become 16 overnight.

You should have seen him after I gave him a demo ping 7 iron... STD length.

He just kept telling me how much "EASIER" it was... he hit some good shots too, the boys around all couldn't believe he was of 26. They wanted him as a fourball partner.

[Bushka]

My wifes birthday next thursday Virge so I'm going to be doing some romancing instead of hitting the long ball.

The thursday after if you are there i'll be all over it.

Thanks a heap again, can't believe how they felt to hit yesterday at Manly. I never realised how much effort I was putting into just staying on plane or moving the club head round.

[Bushka]

After meeting Virge on Thursday and getting my shafts length / weight sorted out across the board I started doing some drills he advocated.

Heres me hitting 3 wood using an exaggerated hip turn. I'm trying to really engage my hips in the swing but it looks kind of silly.

The upshot is though that i hit the three wood far better than i've ever hit it before. Long straight really nice high ball flight with very little spin.

I stuck the driver in there as the final frame because I wanted to show the issue I have with my follow through. It's very high and I think that's not meant to be happening :)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=44QyyO2I6wc

[virge666]

After meeting Virge on Thursday and getting my shafts length / weight sorted out across the board I started doing some drills he advocated.

Heres me hitting 3 wood using an exaggerated hip turn. I'm trying to really engage my hips in the swing but it looks kind of silly.

The upshot is though that i hit the three wood far better than i've ever hit it before. Long straight really nice high ball flight with very little spin.

I stuck the driver in there as the final frame because I wanted to show the issue I have with my follow through. It's very high and I think that's not meant to be happening :)



It looks fine mate - now we can work on some hand speed with the lower clubs.

Does anyone out there think that swing belongs to a 26 marker ?

Anyone . . . Anyone . . .

[KristianJ]

Heck no...looking much more solid for sure!

[Bushka]

Had a run at range with a mate last night, and just couldn't get over how much easier it is to hit my irons.

Been smacking balls and concentrating on tempo and contact.

Will refrain from posting any more vids for a few months now till I get things really grooving :)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_dr16RHYzY

[Bushka]

So you can see from the last swing vid how far inside my hands the club head is on backswing. Its literally a foot behind my arse when the club is at waist height.

So i have been trying to fix that, to get the club on plane throughout the swing, and now..I am lost...I am a lost soul in the desert without water looking directly down the barrel of death by slice.,,,.

I embarked on this change just after playing to 17 and have now developed the most massive lame fade(lets be honest i'm amongst friends..it's a horrible slice) with my driver, I am

shanking stuff everywhere and ..i slice EVERYTHING i am so not enjoying this. I can't draw the ball anymore to save myself and only a month ago that was my stock shot shape.

Should I go back to what was working even if it means snap hooks every once in a while? I couldn't play to 37 right now let alone 22.

Even worse since this started, I have been shanking short game shots to the right(stuff from within 15 mtrs)....it's a freaking pile of poop tickets.

[virge666]

You know the drills . . . you know what to work on.

Stop looking at your swing and trying to fix bullshit little things with your hands. I have repeatedly told you that your hands do NOTHING in a good golf swing.

Now - gte your head in a better place and practice properly.

[Bushka]

Fair enough i will flick the driver and forsake all the other freaking clubs until i can get things working with an easy 9 on my range at Manly.

Be back in a week and or 3000 balls.

Just so I'm specific though, it's not my hands I am worried about, it's the fact that the clubhead is so so far inside on the take away, but yeah i'll just concentrate on drills and grind through it.

[virge666]

Be back in a week and or 3000 balls.

Just so I'm specific though, it's not my hands I am worried about, it's the fact that the clubhead is so so far inside on the take away, but yeah i'll just concentrate on drills and grind through it.

You don't need to hit so many balls - you are just ingraining the wrong stroke - it is also the reason why it is hard for you to make a change and also why I can get you sorted on a range and then you are straight back to shanks and hooks without me.

You are sucking it inside on the backswing becasue you are too active with your knees, trying to fix this with your arms or hands is very counter productive.

BACK TO THE DRILLS...

:)

[Bushka]

Right i went and hit balls with my legs together and just half swings on a pw. Will do it again this arvo and for the rest of the week. Either that or I'll go watch Manly play West Harbour down at Manly Oval and sink a dozen schooners.

[virge666]

Right i went and hit balls with my legs together and just half swings on a pw. Will do it again this arvo and for the rest of the week. Either that or I'll go watch Manly play West Harbour down at Manly Oval and sink a dozen schooners.

Watch manly smash west harbour !!

[Bushka]

Dear me...lol

Watched my swing for the first time in weeks thinking i was smoothing out lol look at the Driver head at the top of my backswing, it's about a foot past my face.

At least HopeIhititstraight can See i'm getting value for money out of the cobra.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lC0jo4C6XsU

[henno]

It sounds like a Cobra too.

[virge666]

Dear me...lol

Watched my swing for the first time in weeks thinking i was smoothing out lol look at the Driver head at the top of my backswing, it's about a foot past my face.


It aint about how long the back swing is - it is about how across the line it is.

That dont look good . . .

[Bushka]

It aint about how long the back swing is - it is about how across the line it is.

That dont look good . . .

Yeah looks like something died to me :)

You can flog me thursday night mate.

[dan]

Nice OTT.

[Bushka]

I think in this case it's actually a nice OTfngT.

[razaar]

FFS mate, swing down along your hip line and under your left shoulder.:)

[s12raider]

So I'm just screwed then Virge aren't I! I look at this swing and it seems so many miles better thna mine - I'm just going back to playing right handed I think.....

[Bushka]

Heya Raz,

Went to the range today and had much better results. See thing is I smoked that drive so i immediately went to look at it on vid and just freaked out hahaha. Wierd how you stop looking at video and reality takes a daytrip.

s12 don't sweat it, I promise you can swing better than that if you pay any attention to Virge at all :)

[Bushka]

Thank...god...for Virge


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qVD6EKd4rh4

Better take away, better rhythm, top of my swing position is 1000% improved and the clubs pointing along the same line as the my alignment club, impact position is 1 zillion % better.

now i need to repeat last nights lesson for about 3 years and i'll be well on the road.

Cheers Virge.

[virge666]

Thank...god...for Virge

Better take away, better rhythm, top of my swing position is 1000% improved and the clubs pointing along the same line as the my alignment club, impact position is 1 zillion % better.

Cheers Virge.

All good mate,

Please don't watch the golf this weekend and decide to add something "special", Striaght 140m+ with an 8i is actually fine and doesn't need to be fixed. The aim is now to hit 160m+ 6i straightish...

S12, lighten up - it is just a game. once your stop strangling the clubs and start actually swinging them - you will make some real progress and very quickly.

Life is good.

[Jono]

Better take away, better rhythm, top of my swing position is 1000% improved and the clubs pointing along the same line as the my alignment club, impact position is 1 zillion % better.



Really?


6550

[dan]

FFS mate, swing down along your hip line and under your left shoulder.:)
Easier said than done.

ps, you're still OTfngT.

[virge666]

Really?


6550


Easier said than done.

ps, you're still OTfngT.

Baby steps gents - Bushy plays off 23.

How many 23 markers have you seen with a swing like that ?

[LarryLong]

Looks nice and relaxed Bushka - no really whacky moves and you look to be quite balanced. Definately don't need to try to hit the cover off it if you can hit an 8 iron 140m with that swing.

[Bushka]

Cheers larry.

I know it aint perfect fellas, but compare it to 48 hours previously and you'll see why i felt so much more comfortable with the swing.

it's not nearly as over the top as it was. Jono your dead on it's actually not square yet, it's just better :)

If you watch those swing vids though the part i like best is that the balls going straight.

Can't thank Virge enough though he is one patient helpful machine :)

[davepuppies]

looking good bushy..... hopefully i can be down the range next thursday to catch up again.....

And yes, virge is a very patient man

[Jono]

Bushka, all I'll say is this. You shouldn't be off 23. :)

BTW, have you tried drills where you take the club back outside (ie. exaggerating it)? Anyway, your overall swing looks good. Just pointing out that our perception oftens differs from reality when it comes to the golf swing.

[virge666]

Bushka, all I'll say is this. You shouldn't be off 23. :)

BTW, have you tried drills where you take the club back outside (ie. exaggerating it)? Anyway, your overall swing looks good. Just pointing out that our perception oftens differs from reality when it comes to the golf swing.

He doesn't need to. Everything is fine on the backswing, if he wants to get rid of the "across the line look" he just needs to "un-cup" the left wrist. Pronating the left wrist on the down swing will also get rid of the OTT look.

Taking it outside will just pull him off the ball and screw up his body action which is the part of his swing that I like, a lot. Watch his right hip through impact and tell me that isn't perfect !!!

As I said - baby steps. This week will be passive wrists drills.

[Jono]

He doesn't need to. Everything is fine on the backswing, if he wants to get rid of the "across the line look" he just needs to "un-cup" the left wrist. Pronating the left wrist on the down swing will also get rid of the OTT look.

Taking it outside will just pull him off the ball and screw up his body action which is the part of his swing that I like, a lot. Watch his right hip through impact and tell me that isn't perfect !!!

As I said - baby steps. This week will be passive wrists drills.

Couldn't disagree more.


6558

[razaar]

He doesn't need to. Everything is fine on the backswing, if he wants to get rid of the "across the line look" he just needs to "un-cup" the left wrist. Pronating the left wrist on the down swing will also get rid of the OTT look.

Taking it outside will just pull him off the ball and screw up his body action which is the part of his swing that I like, a lot. Watch his right hip through impact and tell me that isn't perfect !!!

As I said - baby steps. This week will be passive wrists drills.
Just a suggestion Virge...check his clubface is square to the target at address and have him return the clubface to the address position immediately after the shot. There has to be a reason for that open position - if the clubface is closed or open when he returns it to the address position the second time then the club has twisted in the hands during the swing. If this proves to be the case then Bush will need to learn how to place his fingers on the grip so that the club won't twist when the grip tightens.

[virge666]

Just a suggestion Virge...check his clubface is square to the target at address and have him return the clubface to the address position immediately after the shot. There has to be a reason for that open position - if the clubface is closed or open when he returns it to the address position the second time then the club has twisted in the hands during the swing. If this proves to be the case then Bush will need to learn how to place his fingers on the grip so that the club won't twist when the grip tightens.

No. And here is why.

If you look at his first swing, he is all hands and compensations and his body tilts instead of rotating around his spine. He brings the club more and more inside (to fix the OTT move) and then gets more and more OTT on the way down because his body tilting towards the target. This shows a very dominant right arm and right hand trying to control the clubface AND also deliver power to the ball. This is what needs to change first. The poor bastard needs to work out that the right arm doesn't need to do everything, if we can just get that right arm passively holding a bit of lag and let his body release the club through impact . . . then, once he gets that feeling, we will see what his hands look like on the backswing. (I reckon they will be a lot better :) )

IMHO, Until he can get some kind of solid motion through impact, and more importantly changing his PECEPTION on how to create power and control through impact, changing what his backswing and grip looks like and all the other periphery stuff is just adding more handsy stuff when the aim of the game is to make them as passive as possible. Not to mention that these compensations rarely work under pressure.

As Butch Harmon said, "There is no point changing the parts that hold the club . . . when the parts that hold the parts that hold the club should to be improved first !"

[razaar]

Butch said that.. when the ultimate goal is to square the clubface to the target at impact while swinging down the line.;)

[virge666]

Butch said that.. when the ultimate goal is to square the clubface to the target at impact while swinging down the line.;)

No idea what that means mate !

[razaar]

No idea what that means mate !
Isn't that what we all try to do when we tee it up.

What is more important in your opinion for Bushy at this stage - working on squaring the clubface or working on the direction of his swing? Your previous post suggests to me that you put swing direction ahead of clubface control?

Don't take this the wrong way Virge, I consider you are doing a great job with Bush, I am just interested in your methods.

[idgolfguy]

Not a swing guru myself but wouldn't direction come first? Hands get smarter if they are moving in the right direction first.

I know that if my alignment is off, my hands and arms start trying to compensate to get the ball in the right direction from the start of the swing.

[Bushka]

I know I take the club head back inside, I drilled it in before I ever had anyone look at my swing because i thought for some odd reason your right elbow had to be in contact with your right side throughout the entire swing, now it's like breathing. It is actually better than it was, it looks worse because my ipod has a pretty severe fish eye effect to it. My feet are parallel to the shaft on the ground which is parallel to both the lines in the mat on the right hand side, which all look to be at different angles.

I also know i'm years away from being where I want with a golf swing, and that I have plenty of time to fix that stuff, but that I'm going to let Virge drill the basics into me for as long as he is willing, then we can work on the other stuff. When he gets a hold of me on Thursday nights I've had to re do the same lesson three times because I've tried to over complicate things and move forward before I've actually ingrained the new stuff. So yeah for the moment i'm going to learn 2 + 2 = 4 drill it in, then when i get that, learn what 3+3 gets me.

[virge666]

What is more important in your opinion for Bushy at this stage - working on squaring the clubface or working on the direction of his swing? Your previous post suggests to me that you put swing direction ahead of clubface control?


I let the body and right forearm rotate to square the clubface up. I try to keep the hands and especially the right shoulder passive. I like that bend in the right wrist to be there as much as possible holding the lag.

As per Gary Edwin, Peter Cowan, Butch Harmon, Gary Barter to name a few.

I find it much easier to teach a body release than to teach the hands to rotate over as per Phil, Vijay and Leadbetter.

A good comparison is Ernie a couple of years back with Leadbetter and now with Butch, the right elbow and shoulder do bugger all and his power comes from unloading that right forearm and clearing the hips to create the right angle on the way down. You would have seen Matt Jones doing right arms drills yesterday in the second round of the Valero. I love that stuff !

:)

[razaar]

OK. Most golfers who have an out to in swing direction can trace it back to an open clubface at address coupled with a swing that is steep and right side dominant. Just like our star Bushie. The correction should always be with the clubface first followed by the path of the swing. A slightly closed clubface at address will encourage an inside attack on the ball because an outside attack will be a pull or pull hook left. Best way I know on the course to stop an over the top/steep action with the longer clubs. Otherwise you will run out of balls.:wink:

Working on the direction of the swing before the clubface may work on the practice fairway but it won't work on the course where we tend to revert to old habits.

[virge666]

Working on the direction of the swing before the clubface may work on the practice fairway but it won't work on the course where we tend to revert to old habits.

Yep - that is where we differ - I am not working on direction. I couldn't give a rats arse about direction, I also couldn't give a shit about open clubfaces, on plane, under plane, any plane really, closed club faces, cupped wrists or any of that kind of stuff. It is just compensations that Bushy has to make the ball go straightish.

The problem starts with his hips and legs. He needs to learn how to turn back and through whilst holding a golf club. I start with the lower body and then get the upper body right.

Bushy hips and legs were absolute garbage, he was sliding his hips to the right and then sliding hips the left in his swing. So if I went off and changed his hand action as you and Jono want to do... the end result is still a tilting hip action that will rely on his hands to square the club.

There is no point IMO in changing the hands so it looks good on camera, when his body STILL isn't rotating around his spine. You will play much better golf with a good body action and shitty hand action than the other way around. So my choice is to always change the body action first. Only then can we see what the arms and hands are really doing.

Once we get his right hip going backwards and his right shoulder lower as per a real turn - we can then start to turn of his hands and wrists OFF and get them to HOLD lag as opposed to throwing / Casting / OTT moves on the downswing. As I said - it is a progression, once he learns that you don't have to throw/drive/hit the club with the right hand to get power and that the body will do most of the job for you - then the OTT move should disappear without changing the hand action.

Your trying to fix the hands and then hoping the body will get some kind of idea what to do with a good hand action . . .

My preference is that the Body is the engine room of the golf swing, you have to get it right first.

[razaar]

Hahaha..I had to reread my posts to check about changing hand action, couldn't find it. The suggestion was to check his cluface at address and after the shot to guage what the club was doing in his hands. Quite a simple thing which is generally overlooked.:lol:

[virge666]

The correction should always be with the clubface first followed by the path of the swing. A slightly closed clubface at address will encourage an inside attack on the ball because an outside attack will be a pull or pull hook left

This is fixing the hands to get the student to swing on a different plane.

A way of doing it - but not my preference.

[Bushka]

Virge is on the money, but he has had the joy of watching me side on which is where all the crazy **** is happening :)

Just watched some video of me side on today. Looks a hell of a lot uglier than the rear shot :)

To illustrate the point....

At Address

http://img8.imageshack.us/img8/4046/addressc.jpg

Rotated past 90 and tilting with no seperation between me and the damn club :(

http://img38.imageshack.us/img38/9805/tiltl.jpg

You can see the movement away from that impact line pretty clearly.

Seems to be more prevalent when I try to "hit" the ball rather than when i let my core unwind and release the club with my body which I guess makes sense.

Watched that and spent the rest of the session working on my rotation a'la last thursdays lesson with Virge:) Did much better with staying behind the ball, and set my angles earlier so I didn't need to make such a big turn, was hitting it great by the end of another 50 balls. Had a couple of 160 mtr 8 irons which is for me smoking.

You are dead on Virge about the cupping on the wrist at the top never really looked hard at the top but I can see how that drags the clubhead across the line. I'm not even going to try to fix it, drills till Thursday :)

http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/9515/atthetop.jpg


One other thing i noticed, i'm really bowing my 8 iron when i come down at the ball is this meant to be the case? Never really looked at my swing from side on before just wondering if the shafts are a little soft?

http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/6348/8iron.jpg

[PerryGroves]

Fourball with me down at MGC when you are ready Bushka. I have a couple of clowns I wouldn't mind taking some folding off. I can shoot in the 70's with a shite swing and no short game, you will kill it, but you gotta get out there. It's going to 9 holes shortly.

[Bushka]

Mate nothing would give me more pleasure, hopefully will get a chance for a run before the 9 hole kicks in. Just got to find the time to get on the course with young bubs and real estate (no Saturdays / Wednesdays). Plus my old man plays every Wed/Friday so someone has to be in the office. You going to Brooky tonight? :) I see Bobby Faulton there on your Avatar hah.

[PerryGroves]

Yeah, I see the old boy doesn't miss too many $10 school Wednesdays. No Brookvale on a school night plus it looks pretty ordinary, would be best described as a fair weather supporter these days

[virge666]

Bushy - the bowing is just the crappy camera. It doesn't actually bend THAT much

Perry - You are dead on, can you imagine playing with him and every couple of holes, he get 2 shots on a hole. He could easily be on the green for zero.

Very Scary

[KristianJ]

Mate nothing would give me more pleasure, hopefully will get a chance for a run before the 9 hole kicks in. Just got to find the time to get on the course with young bubs and real estate (no Saturdays / Wednesdays). Plus my old man plays every Wed/Friday so someone has to be in the office. You going to Brooky tonight? :) I see Bobby Faulton there on your Avatar hah.

Oh boy...:lol:

[Bushka]

lol ahem Fulton......

Terry Randall will be round later to give me an uppercut

[Jono]

Bushy hips and legs were absolute garbage, he was sliding his hips to the right and then sliding hips the left in his swing. So if I went off and changed his hand action as you and Jono want to do... the end result is still a tilting hip action that will rely on his hands to square the club.


I didn't say anything about changing his hand action in this thread either. :?

What I was trying to show was that Bushy's across the line look doesn't just come from cupping of the left wrist at the top as you implied.


He doesn't need to. Everything is fine on the backswing, if he wants to get rid of the "across the line look" he just needs to "un-cup" the left wrist. Pronating the left wrist on the down swing will also get rid of the OTT look.

[PerryGroves]

Bushy - the bowing is just the crappy camera. It doesn't actually bend THAT much

Perry - You are dead on, can you imagine playing with him and every couple of holes, he get 2 shots on a hole. He could easily be on the green for zero.

Very Scary

Virge, I showed a bloke from work (2 marker) the Bushka swing in stills. The lag shot has him thinking he's low singles. Your job is done, get him out there.

[Bushka]

I am getting such a fat gut...looking at those photos is really rubbish lol

It's nice to have a discussion on my swing from you guys, can be depressing but also very cool :))

The more I see my swing the less I like it, but I get that I can't try to change everything at once. Would love to improve my lower half get a wide strong base going on with good hip rotation.

Anyway will post some stuff up in a few weeks if theres any radical changes.

Otherwise thanks everyone for the info and the discussion, it's all good as far as I'm concerned :)

[Bushka]

Trust me Perry, it aint there yet.

My contact is inconsistent, and that to me feels all about spine angle and crap legs.

I reckon in a few weeks if I keep focuses i'll start seeing some improvement. It looks ok from stills but the reality is very ugly and i am still having long periods of shanking.

Will see how things go this Thursday.

I really wish there was a mirror on the range down at Manly so I could work it out a little easier on the fly.

[virge666]

What I was trying to show was that Bushy's across the line look doesn't just come from cupping of the left wrist at the top as you implied.

Yes it is - you can see how his left arm hardly gets above his shoulder, he just cups his wrist to get the feeling of completing the backswing without any real shoulder turn.

Your snapshot shows his left wrist already cupped and over rotated - which also gives the impression of being inside the plane on the backswing. He will then lift it straight up and cup it more, again because he has no rotation of the body.

[Jono]

Yes it is - you can see how his left arm hardly gets above his shoulder, he just cups his wrist to get the feeling of completing the backswing without any real shoulder turn.

Your snapshot shows his left wrist already cupped and over rotated - which also gives the impression of being inside the plane on the backswing. He will then lift it straight up and cup it more, again because he has no rotation of the body.

The cupped wrist is not the cause of Bushy bringing the club inside too early. You can cup your left wrist and still take the club outside. Arm/forearm rotation contributes to it, and also the fact that he moves his hands across to the right side of (ie. behind) his body too early in the backswing.

[virge666]

The cupped wrist is not the cause of Bushy bringing the club inside too early.

Never said it did, what is said was . . .


if he wants to get rid of the "across the line look" he just needs to "un-cup" the left wrist.


I don't care about him bringing the club inside too early...that will sort itself out when he starts to rotate his body instead of sliding his hips right.

Your turn . . . :)

[Jono]

Virge, whether you call it "across the line look" or not, Bushy is across the line at the top. The cupped wrist is not the cause of being across the line at the top or the "across the line look".

Good body action is easy ... if you know where the hands and the club needs to go.

[virge666]

Good body action is easy ... if you know where the hands and the club needs to go.

Good hand action is even easier - if the body is rotating correctly. As I said - you will play much better golf with a good body action and shitty hands ... that the other way around.

There are heaps of guys on tour who have weird and wacky hand actions, I can name 20 without getting off the couch... but you are going to struggle to find a tour player that reverse pivots, tilts or loses his levels.

Hence the reason I like to teach the body action first . . .

[Jono]

Good hand action is even easier - if the body is rotating correctly. As I said - you will play much better golf with a good body action and shitty hands ... that the other way around.

There are heaps of guys on tour who have weird and wacky hand actions, I can name 20 without getting off the couch... but you are going to struggle to find a tour player that reverse pivots, tilts or loses his levels.

Hence the reason I like to teach the body action first . . .

I disagree.

Show me one pro that has their club in this position on the way back ...

6610

then in this position on the way down.

6611

I think the swing should be taught more wholistically, especially to high handicappers, rather than body first than hands second or vice versa.

[razaar]

Bushie's backswing action is not unlike Fred Couples position at the top. I made it my business to watch Freddie hit balls at Hope Island in 1997 (Johnny Walker Classic). These are some of the things about his swing I committed to memory:
. a shut clubface at address.
. alignment left of target
. takeaway inside to alignment but on plane to the ball target line
. clubface vertical at the top (open position)
. hands drop straight down and clubface shifted to 45* ( leasurely pace)
. extremely fast leg and hip action (much faster than it looks on TV)
. ball starts slightly left of target with a hint of fade.
. stays down a long time.

[Bushka]

Jono I think that it's an admirable goal but not a realistic one (to teach the swing holistically that is).

We all know that any teacher student relationship in this case between me and virge is going to be time poor due to 1. the fact i'm not paying him anything and 2. the fact I have a young family/job (as does Virge):)

So it's got to be step by step, especially when we are only really hooking up every 2nd week, and i'm only really playing a round of golf bats once per month.

I'd love to be a Freddie clone RAZ !

[Jono]

Jono I think that it's an admirable goal but not a realistic one (to teach the swing holistically that is).

We all know that any teacher student relationship in this case between me and virge is going to be time poor due to 1. the fact i'm not paying him anything and 2. the fact I have a young family/job (as does Virge):)

So it's got to be step by step, especially when we are only really hooking up every 2nd week, and i'm only really playing a round of golf bats once per month.

I'd love to be a Freddie clone RAZ !


Bushka, what I mean by wholistic teaching is this. If you were to teach a person to throw a ball, would you teach the body action first and not care about what the arms/hands do? I think knowing what you need to do with the hands/arms lends itself to a good body motion.

Good example of wholistic teaching is Ernest Jones' "Swing the Clubhead" approach.

[Bushka]

Bushka, what I mean by wholistic teaching is this. If you were to teach a person to throw a ball, would you teach the body action first and not care about what the arms/hands do? I think knowing what you need to do with the hands/arms lends itself to a good body motion.

Good example of wholistic teaching is Ernest Jones' "Swing the Clubhead" approach.

I take your point, but it's not like I don't already have a method for delivering the hands to the ball, it might not be where it's going to end up but it is a method. If Virge is looking at my swing in person and the biggest issue to him is the way i'm moving my body then I'm happy to work on that.

Plus remember i'm about 18 months into holding a club, I can't process more than I am right now I just get frustrated all to hell. I'd love to be good enough to work on that much at once but I am not.

To me the hips and rotation don't feel natural at all it's hard and trying to get my hands involved as well right now would be like putting me on suicide watch i'd just loose my ***t.... :)

[virge666]

Bushka, what I mean by wholistic teaching is this. If you were to teach a person to throw a ball, would you teach the body action first and not care about what the arms/hands do? I think knowing what you need to do with the hands/arms lends itself to a good body motion.


Because throwing a ball is no where near as complex as a golf swing... only a couple of levers and you are not bent over confusing the brain...

The golf swing is not a natural movement, never has been. you need to break it down into parts and steps, with each step complimenting the next step. This way the student gets lots of "Aha" moments and not lots of confusing and robotic movements.

Proof is in the pudding though . . . lets see in a few weeks . . . I think Justin will be the easy one. A real test of the method is S12Raider, his brain and patterns are really blocking his progress and he is going to be a hard one to teach.

[dan]

We should formulate some sort of challenge to motivate the Bush and make this thread more interesting.

Virge do you think you could get him to single figures within a year?

[Bushka]

We should formulate some sort of challenge to motivate the Bush and make this thread more interesting.

Virge do you think you could get him to single figures within a year?

Lets rock that one out!

[virge666]

Virge do you think you could get him to single figures within a year?

Dunno - He is like me with kids and only an hour or so to practice each week... this would be OK if he was a single figure maintaining a low handicap, but to bring it down that much . . .

I reckon very low teens without much drama. S12 I would like to see in teens some time soon.

[Jono]

I take your point, but it's not like I don't already have a method for delivering the hands to the ball, it might not be where it's going to end up but it is a method. If Virge is looking at my swing in person and the biggest issue to him is the way i'm moving my body then I'm happy to work on that.

Plus remember i'm about 18 months into holding a club, I can't process more than I am right now I just get frustrated all to hell. I'd love to be good enough to work on that much at once but I am not.

To me the hips and rotation don't feel natural at all it's hard and trying to get my hands involved as well right now would be like putting me on suicide watch i'd just loose my ***t.... :)

Thats precisely the point. You seem to think learning the swing wholistically is more complex than learning it piece by piece. It's the other way around.

[Yossarian]

This is like watching a tennis match, but minus the fit chicks.

[virge666]

Mmmmmmmmmm . . . . Tennis chicks . . . Woznacki does amazing things for me . . .

[s12raider]

Because throwing a ball is no where near as complex as a golf swing... only a couple of levers and you are not bent over confusing the brain...

The golf swing is not a natural movement, never has been. you need to break it down into parts and steps, with each step complimenting the next step. This way the student gets lots of "Aha" moments and not lots of confusing and robotic movements.

Proof is in the pudding though . . . lets see in a few weeks . . . I think Justin will be the easy one. A real test of the method is S12Raider, his brain and patterns are really blocking his progress and he is going to be a hard one to teach.

Go on you love the challenge!!

you love me being the "angry man" because you get the chance to mock the c### out of me and I just go home with my tail between my legs.

THAT IS UNTIL LAST NIGHT!!!!!! F%$##king AWESOME. The ligth has gone on - and it 's not a train approaching.

[dan]

Has zig come back? :-s :roll:

[s12raider]

I take it that comment is aimed at me? I'll tone it down if you like. However I reserve the right to "lose the plot" from time to time

[Bushka]

Well heaps of stuff is improving. My hip rotation is better after doing some heavy weather rain work with Virge last thursday i'm in a better place balance wise coming more from behind the ball with my left shoulder a little higher and rotating round it rather than dipping it...the issue for me is still i am miles across the line at the top.

Heres a swing I wasn't really happy with but which really illustrates the across the line in a big way.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hWlElXPuiWs

I watched the shadow lines for hip turn and that's improved a heap i am getting less slide since Thursdays drills.

Heres my query is the inside the line take away being so sever causing the across the line at the top which is in turn causing the over the top on the way down i.e i have to come in on a shallower plane because i've stuck the club so far behind me that once my hip turn starts it's getting dragged directly over and down?

Discuss thanks..

[dan]

is the inside the line take away being so sever causing the across the line at the top which is in turn causing the over the top on the way down
Bingo!

(wish youtube had a better slider to see frame by frame).

[Bushka]

going to try to hit balls tomorrow and concentrate on firstly uncupping the wrist and then really pushing the club head out along the target line to start the swing see if I can successfully sort out some kind of thing to fix this. I feel like if i can get this on the road forward i'll clear up a heap of my issues.

[virge666]

going to try to hit balls tomorrow and concentrate on firstly uncupping the wrist and then really pushing the club head out along the target line to start the swing see if I can successfully sort out some kind of thing to fix this. I feel like if i can get this on the road forward i'll clear up a heap of my issues.

Please don't.

[Bushka]

Fair enough, i'll stick with the programme, I'll practice putting / chipping until thursday night then and work on it there.

[razaar]

Looks to be too much bend in your right elbow in the backswing...Virge has mentioned this I'll bet. This suggests to me that the right hand/arm/shoulder are doing work that is the job of the left shoulder/arm. If the right side gets involved too early in the swing it will take over, with the swing changing to a pushing action and very unstable. A stable swing has the leading side in control in a pulling action. My suggestion is to concentrate on the left arm in the bachswing.

[Bushka]

It's the whole right arm sucked in hard to start the backswing thing again. I drilled it into my brain last year when i started out. Had the chicken wing syndrome going on and someone said I should be able to hold a tissue into my right side all the way through the swing.

I am pretty sure thats where the insanely inside take away came from. A few weeks of drilling that in has done me. Virge has been trying to get my lower half working mostly which has been excellent and has really improved my tempo and contact, but we have not really worked on the across the line thing yet. My legs were so shite and one thursday night every two weeks doesn't really allow him to get through that much especially when half the time i'm redoing the same lesson from the last time I was there.

[virge666]

The "sucked inside" comes from both your hips and shoulders turning at the same time to start the backswing. it i also called a fake turn and is the reason why you "TILT".

The same drill we did last Thursday will fix it, the bit where I held your shoulders still whilst you brought the club to your right hip. We can do some video to show you the difference.

[virge666]

A stable swing has the leading side in control in a pulling action. My suggestion is to concentrate on the left arm in the bachswing.

Yep - we can try that as well.

[razaar]

It's the whole right arm sucked in hard to start the backswing thing again. I drilled it into my brain last year when i started out. Had the chicken wing syndrome going on and someone said I should be able to hold a tissue into my right side all the way through the swing.

I am pretty sure thats where the insanely inside take away came from. A few weeks of drilling that in has done me. Virge has been trying to get my lower half working mostly which has been excellent and has really improved my tempo and contact, but we have not really worked on the across the line thing yet. My legs were so shite and one thursday night every two weeks doesn't really allow him to get through that much especially when half the time i'm redoing the same lesson from the last time I was there.

I am sorry to say this but your approach to learning a reliable swing may be back the front. Attack the upper part of your body, those parts that have a direct influence on how the club is weilded, before learning the lower movements. In most cases the lower body will react correctly if the top half does all the right moves. Most teachers of the game advocate learning the fundamentals of the short game before serious work is undertaken on the long game.

[virge666]

I am sorry to say this but your approach to learning a reliable swing may be back the front. Attack the upper part of your body, those parts that have a direct influence on how the club is weilded, before learning the lower movements. In most cases the lower body will react correctly if the top half does all the right moves. Most teachers of the game advocate learning the fundamentals of the short game before serious work is undertaken on the long game.

We aren't going through this again are we...

Ray - Sit down, shut up and stop conflicting the poor bloke. I have to spend the first 20 minutes of each lesson undoing what he thought he saw some pro doing on TV last week. I have enough on my plate simplifiing his process and sequencing without you contradicting everything with a different method of teaching.

He is a C grader, and I do not know any C grader out there with a swing that looks as good as his. The sooner we all stop comparing him to single figure player, the sooner his brain will come and join the party and the easier it is for me to convince him that a 150m 8 iron that goes straight is OK, even if you are taking it inside on the takeaway and the club is across the line at the top.

Gimme till the end of July, then we can see how it looks - sound fair ?

[Bushka]

My fault i'm on here soliciting advice just because i'm a little frustrated (or rather way too ambitious ) with my swing.

Patience being the virtue it is i'll just hold off for a while and will stop constantly videoing my shwing.

[virge666]

Lets do one a month instead . . And you have to stop all the videos from the back - the front will show the things I want to change . . . . gradually.

The back is only good for Spine angle and plane and that is not going to look any good for a while yet...

[dan]

I'd kill for an 8 iron that goes 150m.

ps. the challenge still stands. Single figures within a year. Chop chop boy!

[razaar]

We aren't going through this again are we...

Ray - Sit down, shut up and stop conflicting the poor bloke. I have to spend the first 20 minutes of each lesson undoing what he thought he saw some pro doing on TV last week. I have enough on my plate simplifiing his process and sequencing without you contradicting everything with a different method of teaching.

He is a C grader, and I do not know any C grader out there with a swing that looks as good as his. The sooner we all stop comparing him to single figure player, the sooner his brain will come and join the party and the easier it is for me to convince him that a 150m 8 iron that goes straight is OK, even if you are taking it inside on the takeaway and the club is across the line at the top.

Gimme till the end of July, then we can see how it looks - sound fair ?

Just another view Anthony, to throw into the mix. As for the 150 m 8-iron, I would be more impressed if he could control a 75m 8-iron.:)

[Bushka]

I can hit it 75 mts right or left any time you like razoo

[razaar]

Well lets see a vid. of you hitting a 75 m 8-iron. A straight one at your selected target; none of that left or right stuff.

[LarryLong]

Bushka must be feeling like one of the kids in a custody battle right about now. :)

FWIW I think you should stick with the teachings of Sensei Virge - if only because he's taking the time to watch you hit lots of balls and has seen enough of your swings over time to make a more valued judgement. I've got no idea who's right though, but I did want to add one thing...

Can you please change your avatar? Every time I scroll through a thread at work and see one of your posts I think "Oh crap" and have to look around to make sure nobody thinks I'm a pervert. As if the new "Look everybody, I'm doing something non-work-related" skin wasn't bad enough. :)

[virge666]

I would be more impressed if he could control a 75m 8-iron.:)

Me too mate - but like most B & C graders... getting them to do drills for more than 30 seconds is rather trying.

I might bring my 9mm Beretta on Thursday and see how that goes. (That would look good on video !!)

[razaar]

Larry, my comments are made not so much for Bushko (he has Virge tearing his hair out) but for the benefit of forum members who are interested in the fundamentals of the golf swing.

[Bushka]

Will change the avatar :) it's an album cover from the Black Crowes by the way but i'll find something more work friendly :)

[grandmasterb]

Will change the avatar :) it's an album cover from the Black Crowes by the way but i'll find something more work friendly :)

Looks more like orange camel to me???

[s12raider]

Jason , you know I have little hair left and I'm still tearing it out.

Hang in there - the light should come on very soon for you.

For me, I seem to like the dark.......

[idgolfguy]

More than one way to skin a cat. However, you can only skin one cat at a time.

Best to stick to the same teacher and follow one approach. Both are very good but you cannot be the student of two masters (a little poetic licence).

[Bushka]

yeah i'm on that boat igg.

Virge has really worked on the first movements in my swing and getting my left shoulder higher to stop the tilt. It's the tilt thats killing me and you can see it in my legs when i dip, have some good drills now that will lead me clear eventually.

[idgolfguy]

Not sure if this would apply but when I use to perform, I applied a body awareness technique by Alexander (Alexander Technique). One of the methods was tense every muscle in the surrounding area while practising until you got tired. Only then could you really develop the sense of each, individual muscle and what it was doing.

You need to be able to feel what you are going to change before you can let it go. It's a little Zen but it works.

[Jono]

The "sucked inside" comes from both your hips and shoulders turning at the same time to start the backswing. it i also called a fake turn and is the reason why you "TILT".

The same drill we did last Thursday will fix it, the bit where I held your shoulders still whilst you brought the club to your right hip. We can do some video to show you the difference.

http://img714.imageshack.us/img714/4816/bushtakeaway.jpg

Bushy takes the club inside with his hands and arms with the shoulders following. The hips haven't moved much here.

[Jono]

Lets do one a month instead . . And you have to stop all the videos from the back - the front will show the things I want to change . . . . gradually.

The back is only good for Spine angle and plane and that is not going to look any good for a while yet...

I think the best view for looking at the body movements during the swing is the rear view (ie. rear of the player at address).

[Jono]

Because throwing a ball is no where near as complex as a golf swing... only a couple of levers and you are not bent over confusing the brain...


A good throwing action is just as complex as the golf swing, or just as simple to people who are good at it. Some people are natural at it and some aren't.

If you were to teach Bushy how to throw the ball fast and straight, wouldn't you first take a wholistic approach? Get the general feel of the throw first before getting down to all the body movements?

Bushy takes the club back in one direction and brings it back down in another direction. Wouldn't you want to get him taking it back and bringing it down in similar direction before you get into the body movements?

[Eca]

Nice swing definitely for a 20s capper! Virge has got this one. Bushka is doing the common 'initiating' the downsing with the powerful turning/unwinding of the shoulder first causing him to throw the hands out which normally results in the ball starting left. Keep that shoulder quiet while you start uncoiling from the bottom up. Your hands will come from the inside and your shoulder will turn by itself to square at impact. I see the error only in the 1st 20% after transition. All other aspects is so natural and awesome!

[razaar]

What you say Eca is spot on when you describe a good golf swing. Doing it, for a 20 marker particularly a player who has backswing thoughts in his head, is damn near impossible. In fact I'd say any attempt to start the downswing with the legs or the arms first will lead to mistiming errors that ruins the swing. So how do you get inside a 20 marker's head to change the sequencing of his forward swing?

[Bushka]

I've got more vid which i'm not going to post because it's exactly the same issue still :) I know what i'm trying to achieve but making it happen is ridiculously difficult. I've had the same conversation with Virge 50 times and it must kill him. I understand what he is saying, he is getting the point across and demonstrating it wonderfully for me, but my body is so ingrained that it just goes back to the 50000 balls it's already hit in one particular fashion.

This is the first sport i've ever been involved in where you can't seemingly just throw hours at the problem to fix it.

I am feeling incredibly frustrated lol. The reason i'm dropping strokes is for the most part improved short game and cleaner more consistent contact, but not really a consistent ball flight. I feel like i could end up down in the mid teens by years end if i played enough comp rounds and still not have a freaking clue...which makes me wonder just how much work it must be to get to single figures...

[dan]

No one said it was going to be easy.

Keep it up! ;)

[Eca]

Bring one of ur golf club box or shoe box next time u go to the range. Set it parallel to ur stick alignment on the other side of the ball with leading end of the box in line with ur ball. The box should be fairly close. About an inch away from the leading edge of ur club. This will force u to come from the inside to out (it's impossible to overdo the out bit). You will look silly if you throw that hand out early as you will clip the box b4 u hit the ball & make a hell of a noise :)

[razaar]

I've got more vid which i'm not going to post because it's exactly the same issue still :) I know what i'm trying to achieve but making it happen is ridiculously difficult. I've had the same conversation with Virge 50 times and it must kill him. I understand what he is saying, he is getting the point across and demonstrating it wonderfully for me, but my body is so ingrained that it just goes back to the 50000 balls it's already hit in one particular fashion.

This is the first sport i've ever been involved in where you can't seemingly just throw hours at the problem to fix it.

I am feeling incredibly frustrated lol. The reason i'm dropping strokes is for the most part improved short game and cleaner more consistent contact, but not really a consistent ball flight. I feel like i could end up down in the mid teens by years end if i played enough comp rounds and still not have a freaking clue...which makes me wonder just how much work it must be to get to single figures...
Bush
I can understand your delema with trying to correct a tipping shoulder plane on the backswing. It is probably the most difficult backswing fault to change.

The difference between your backswing and say Tom Watson's (who also has a high hands position) is Watson turns his shoulders fairly horizontally (in plane with his spine angle) where yours tips towards the vertical. Watson's backswing is a high swing, yours is a steep swing. His is made with the left arm movement (not the shoulders); yours makes the up and down movement with the shoulders. This steep shoulder action produces a steep attack on the ball, which may work OK with the short iron shots. Where it comes unstuck is with the longer clubs - but you already know that.

The common reason why players get into a steep habit, is they start off with their upper body too vertical or leaning towards the target because of a forward ball position. They were told to keep their head still and watch the ball so the shoulders tip too enable them to get a real good view of the ball.

If you can see your feet when you look down at the top of your backswing with the driver and fairway woods, there is a fair chance that your shoulders have tipped in the backswing. The exceptions are very tall players who have to bend more at the hips to get down to the ball. The rest of us should at best see a point 10cms inside the ball with the driver in hand. You don't need to visit the range to work on this aspect of your swing. Practice 10 mins every day with a driver trying to flatten the plane, can be done at home by lifting the left shoulder trying to hide the ball position with the left arm in full control in lifting the club. Ensuring that you follow Virge's address set-up.

The other issue with the cupped wrist can be attacked at the same time. If you keep the right hand out of the takeaway the left wrist will hinge correctly. It is a weakness in the left arm that causes the left wrist to collapse into a cupped position. Swinging a club with only the left hand to the top of the backswing over and over, will give a firm, straight back to the left hand.

[Bushka]

yeah virge has been trying to drum that out of me, i really raise my arms steeply and give up on the rotation in relation to my spine. I cannot stop it, just punishs me seeing it on video again and again even when i think i've finally got it gone. Will probably not a have a chance to do any drills prior to thursday night but if i get a spare 15 minutes at home will give the left hand swing thing a go.

[KristianJ]

How's the swing coping with the new driver? :)

[Bushka]

Disregard whinge fest. Have Man Flu and not had a chance to really work properly on swing the past few weeks.

I love the driver, but alas it may be too much wang for me, that and the fact that it is a little open and I do not struggle to send the ball right AT all lol.

Going to have to move to a 10.5 Degree at some point if i can't get it working and lets be honest i'm a 21 chopper as Virge has repeated to me ad nauseum I don't need a 9.5 degree low trajectory death laser :)

Lovely bit of hardware though and I will attempt great things with it hopefully when the rain stops :)

[Bushka]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tAUnfpyu3NI&list=UUba2fWNOy1-9LyQdNUNDiLg&index=1&feature=plcp

Latest iteration of frustration :)

For the life of me i cannot stop rolling my hands at take away. I seem to now move them away from my body in an attempt to get the club to stop going inside but it doesn't work as they roll anyway and the hands are now inside and away as well. Victory.

From there on in, everything is going to be broken regardless.

I can take it to position 1 (parallel to target line and slightly shut or neutral at hands height ) without performing a full swing no probs once i start swinging, the wrists roll or the forearms whichever it is, it's as certain as death and taxes.

I feel like my contacts better, or my timings just got better. I'm hitting 9 iron about 130 and 7 irons over 150 but i'd give up the distance to see one swing that went back on plane and not inside...it's like trying to stop breathing..

Anyway onwards and upwards. I fully understand where I want to go :) just having issues getting there. I hit an awful lot of balls in the backyard kudos to Virge for letting me steal his net when he moved house :)

[virge666]

See me thursday, stupidly easy fix.

FFS, give me something difficult.

This is awful . . . you may as well throw the bloody thing.

15781

[IamViva]

looks like my old body shape lol :D

[Bushka]

15800

still coming over the top. But my hands are kind of slotting in now since I had a chat to A.C after playing at Bayview yesterday.

Stopped worrying about them and tried to rotate my body in a different manner and voila much more powerful, athletic position at the top (all the yoga im doing actually gets used rotating like this) and my hands are just naturally going into the slot a lot better on the way up in the backswing which has made me nearly cry with joy :)).

WIll post a video up in a week once i get this over the top **** sorted.

How l337 is it hitting balls in ya thongs.

[virge666]

How l337 is it hitting balls in ya thongs.

Your a real estate agent, get your own language !

:)

[dan]

Not a bad position Bush. Forming the triangle nicely.... hands over right shoulder.

[Bushka]

I was a quake and half life kid before I ever turned to real estate. I can 1337 it up with a clear conscience

[Bushka]

Working on new parts spending heaps of time in the net. Hands are higher and takeaway better but doing some crazy stuff at the top.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ZaR7kszSN4&feature=youtube_gdata_player

On iPad at present but looking forward to solidifying the takeaway and figuring out more over the next week

[Bushka]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mO6UoaZHebo&feature=youtube_gdata_playerFinally getting consistent in the first three feet. My right elbow is the next port of call. Been hitting so many balls lately and working on posture and tempo after the elbow I'm moving onto the over the top move hopefully the elbow work will contribute towards that. I want to stop the vertical rise after I get the shaft to waist height and really let the elbow work naturally, almost like a waiter carrying a tray of drinks without getting disconnected.I have to say breaking the bad habit I formed in my first six months with a club of basically rolling my hands inside at takeaway was a monumental undertaking. It's out of all proportion just how crazy it was to get my body to give it up. Have spent months now getting golf fit and flexible with yoga and weights does to a volte 111 kegs, I'm going to get a functioning swing if it kills me.

[virge666]

backswing looks better, get your hands a bit closer to your ribcage on the backswing.

THEN . . .

Now get the arms down to about hip height before you clear the hips on the downswing.

Your losing all your lag and flipping it madly to get power.

[Bushka]

Yeah i'm a flipper :( i realised that when i saw the over the top move yet was still getting good distance (150 mtr 8 irons with range balls), i'm basically making my living with handsy timing instead of coil right? Which is frustrating since i've never had a stronger core to take advantage of.

So yeah, it's on the list. If theres one thing i've learnt so far it's that i need to get to average first before i can get to good :)

[virge666]

Thursday @ narabeen...

[Bushka]

So i'm really trying to get a better tempo and rhythm. I've noticed that when i get fast i get such shit results, and when i slow down i lose no distance and actually have much nicer misses.

Focus for me has been on the right elbow trying to get my hands higher above my right shoulder and get the elbow in front of me rather than hands to the right of my shoulder and elbow out wide and behind me.

Downswings a tragedy still but the takeaway feels much more about my body now, like a natural turn which brings my hands into a better position instead of a manipulation.

The difference is more evident when I look at the two top of the swing positions side by side.

16571



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V6n86HRaN3E&context=C49d4d6aADvjVQa1PpcFMr TQwRPTfotSa1ZjaYw4c9ohoHy1siMsc=


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oobc67hLe5c&feature=context&context=C49d4d 6aADvjVQa1PpcFMrTQwRPTfotSa1ZjaYw4c9ohoHy1siMsc=

[virge666]

Same problem with the lower half mate.

hands work better in the bottom one though...

[razaar]

Bush, WTF are you trying to do? Don't fall into the trap that 99% of golfers make in trying to copy swing positions. The positions they try to copy are those that occur as a result of suptle actions the elite player makes consciously at the very start of the takeaway, at the top and transition to the downswing and through impact. It all happens in less than 2 seconds and in sequence. It is a mistake to try and copy positions that the elite player does unconsciously without including the key actions that cause those moves. In most cases the keys occur so quickly that that it is difficult to pick them up from a video unless you know what to look for. An example is the trail elbow position at the top and its ideal position during the downswing is a consequence of the takeaway before the hands pass the the trail leg. It happens so quick that the eyes can't pick it up. I could tell you but what would be the fun in that - best you research it yourself. That way you will get a good understanding of what makes a swing work.

[virge666]

What Raz said.

:)

[Bushka]

I'm not copying positions Raz, I never even mentioned that. What I'm doing or trying to do via trial and error stuff for the most part is to get some control over this wild ****ing bronco.

The last two times out i've been doing the Shawn Clement thing and just letting the big nuts swing in the breeze, no swing thoughts just naturally taking it back and letting it fall. It's worked great and my contacts better and better, however this look is something i've wanted to get into the swing for a little while now though because i have an enormous tendancy to randomly stick the club 3 feet behind my arse rolling my wrists on the take away and it's overrrrr from there. When i get My arms up higher and rotate there without manipulating it the club can't be going 3 feet behind me and I don't get teh crazy 50 mtr pulls and duck hooks.

Here is what I mean watch my fclub head and this is NOT a severe example. By the way this video is only about 6 weeks old. I prefer where I am now exponentially.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tAUnfpyu3NI

I don't know much about the swing admittedly, but I know for the life of me that if i didn't get rid of that shitting inside rolling the hands move this year I was every chance of going on Rusty Razor Blade watch in H wing at Pentridge.

One final thing.

The takeaway is where i've been making these adjustments. I understand that holistically, I don't just put my hands where I saw Lee Westwood put his hands....srrymrswestwood...

I basically practiced keeping my hands in the same slot at address and beginning my swing by rotating that whole arm / club unit with my shoulders. Thats the difference between a few weeks ago and now, and why my hands are higher and over the shoulder.

I wanted to fix the takeaway it's why nearly all the videos on the youtube channel are called "takeaway something", i tried to fix it by manipulating the hands before and it was no good.

[Bushka]

Same problem with the lower half mate.

hands work better in the bottom one though...

specifically with the lower half what are you referring to? The sequence of the move from right side to left side in relation to my downswing?

[virge666]

specifically with the lower half what are you referring to? The sequence of the move from right side to left side in relation to my downswing?

Just look at your hips...

You tilt to the left on the back swing and then tilt to the right on the downswing.

#2: please dont roll your wrists, let the momentum do that for you. If it isn't rolling then ask yourself why it isn;t rolling and find a motion that makes them release.

#3: Just to confuse things. . . . The wrists dont actually roll. they release. Check out Hogans book for a better information and pictures.

Or get your big 8 foot arse down to Narra on Thursday

[Bushka]

Hah. Yeah I see the hip thing. The point I was making about the wrists was to do with me rolling them on takeaway which I managed to stop with this new wrinkle as to narra I've not been in ages Thursday's the only night in the week I can do my yoga which is typical. It's the only real exercise I'm doing at the moment

[virge666]

Hah. Yeah I see the hip thing. The point I was making about the wrists was to do with me rolling them on takeaway which I managed to stop with this new wrinkle as to narra I've not been in ages Thursday's the only night in the week I can do my yoga which is typical. It's the only real exercise I'm doing at the moment

If you want to do Yoga instead of hit Golf balls . . . then I am sure you and your husband will be very happy.

[Bushka]

Bikram baby the 39 degree stuff only thing keeping my knees happy
Ps. Most insane perve. Inhistory

[razaar]

Righto mate, just about everybody trys to copy swing positions, thought that maybe you were trying to do the same. Looking at the stills in your post you look to be in dire need of the strap. The strap is a belt drill with the belt around your waist and upper right arm just above the elbow, tying the elbow to the right side. Hit half shots with this set-up ensuring the back of the right wrist bends directly back to the back of the forearm at the start of the takeaway. This is referred to as dorsal flexion of the right wrist and palmer flexion of the left wrist. This drill will highlight how much tension is involved in the correct backswing and how you need to turn your shoulders. After a while the tension disappears as the body gets used to it. The next belt drill is to belt the elbows together in their address position to maintain this distance at the top of the swing and try to get the elbows to touch. You won't be able to but that is the feeling you need to have. Have fun.:lol:

[Bushka]

I have to admit i love the idea of something that puts me in the right position. I was talking to Dave Saunders (the teaching pro at the driving range in narrabeen), the other day who has just joined Manly (and who i've had a few lessons with thanks to a voucher i got at xmas for the narrabeen driving range). He was saying some stuff that is quiet similar re flat left wrist and such. He also thinks i swing too far back and then try to swing out at the ball still which is obvious after looking at the videos again.

Always good to get feedback on here from you rampant humans. Its hard to look at it in isolation and ignorance and get a clue :)

Cheers boys.

P.S Going to hit youtube up for that belt drill im sure some randoms done it on there :)

[LarryLong]

Any chance of a video from yoga?

[Bushka]

I'd have to hide a camera in my footy shorts. Could look slightly suspect.

[Bushka]

Was on way out to Bayview to spend some vouchers Tuesday (They need to stock more 13 EEE shoes...I went home empty handed )and stopped in to have a hit at the range
Dave Saunders said g'day on the way through spent 2 mins moving my arms about and basically everything changed immediately. Was talking about doing almost a bicep curl action away from my body on the way down, and a little change to my hands on the way up. I'm going to be working on this action for the next few weeks but it feels way different.

Left wrist is flat and my hands seem to work back down to the ball rather than me throwing them at the ball,plus club gets on a much steadier less...violent? plane.

I only had one video and only had time to really hit one or two balls the new way as I was nearly finished by this point.

Driver swing before change.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xvK48aVZeaY&feature=youtu.be


Driver swing after change

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=09rdDixiuB0

Any thoughts?

I know the lower body needs work, but theres only so many hours in the day.

[virge666]

Honestly...

Laid off and shut. OTT on the way down. Don't like it.

It is all just very weak and handsy.



Left wrist is flat and my hands seem to work back down to the ball rather than me throwing them at the ball,plus club gets on a much steadier less...violent? plane.

None of the above is true. This is your downswing...



16609

[Bushka]

Flat left wrist at top* was what I was alluding to.

You are spot on about the downswing obviously transition is a shambles as per normal but in my defence it was the very first time i'd ever swung the club that way, it was always going to look like the spazcoptor.

It is laid off, not sure if thats something thats easier to sort than my normal swing which is massively across the line and always has been. Drivers remains a huge issue for me. Playing the view yesterday off the Blues and I used Driver 9 times and missed the fairway every single time. Slice, pull, block, hook, I play all the shots.

I am willing to give it a shot because what i'm trying to do right now is not going anywhere.

It is bloody shut though isn't it. Well ****. I have to be honest this golf thing is so much harder than i envisioned. I've never had to work so hard at something for so little noticeable improvement.

Going to try to mix and match a little. Work on my standard swing and takeaway but push more of the transition and downswing with this right bicep curl idea and see how it goes. Want that flat left wrist and then also want to hold it all through the downswing so i can get soem power through.

[virge666]

Playing the view yesterday off the Blues and I used Driver 9 times and missed the fairway every single time. Slice, pull, block, hook, I play all the shots.

I am willing to give it a shot because what i'm trying to do right now is not going anywhere.


OK,

Well drop me a line when you get that out of your system and we shall actually fix it.

:)

[Bushka]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_EmpvJ8KKEw&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Hands go directly back now which is huge for me and my lower half is much quieter early in the takeaway. Working hard on tempo and really happy with my rhythm. Still struggling with transition but improving takeaway has had immediate results in improving transition which would seem obvious to everyone but me.

I feel like I am on the verge of lopping a few shots off the handicap in the next few games.

Ps 7.30 net session was only 9 or 10 degrees hence the beanie on a sunny Sydney morning

[Bushka]

Been a long time since I posted on the swing journey front.

I went off the rails the past six months trying to do massive shoulder turn body swings with little to no involvement from my arms. Finally went and saw saundo at narrabeen and realised I've wasted six months when I could have just paid him 60 bucks.

So many things I don't love about my swing but he has really got me minimising hip turn in takeaway and I've made big strides in staying off my left side on the backswing. A lot more efficient.

I've been trying to emulate sneds methodology over the ball couple of waggles and a singular swing thought then just hit smooth.


Feel like I can start playing again after a pointless detour of duck hooks and pulls. Ball flight is pretty strong distance is good and direction is immeasurably better with a swing that's got a lot less moving parts.




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o4ZCd-BHNFE&feature=c4-overview&list=UUba2fWNOy1-9LyQdNUNDiLg


Obviously I'm not claiming a finished product but its nice to finally step in the right direction. Can't emphasise enough how pointless struggling on in the dark is spending cash on clubs that I should be spending on coaching.

[Bushka]

Side View getting better at minimizing the old reverse pivot which has been a long time issue.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lsoVSSHFZJA&feature=c4-overview&list=UUba2fWNOy1-9LyQdNUNDiLg