Should amateur golfers win cash?

[sms316]

Why not? Amateur lawn bowlers do. In fact quite a lot of amateur sports give cash as prizes.

I know I'd rather win $50 in cash than a voucher which can only be spent in a limited number of places which don't really stock anything worthwhile.

I know that the Rules of Golf are quite clear about this, but really, couldn't they do with so updating?

[WBennett]

No - cash encourages cheats.

You can't cheat in lawn bowls (I count playing sober as cheating)

[Hawkers2008]

It would be great to have that option. In the real world having cash prizes would create too many problems with all forms of cheating (not just handicap management).

[Daves]

No cash, but more widely accepted "vouchers" would be a good option.

I have noticed a few clubs that to me are "milking" the prizes methodology. Reddie Bay is an example, a visitor's prize is treated differently to a members. The club takes control of the prize allocation, you can't pick it up from the pro shop. They then downgrade the ball rundown prize to cheap and nasty distance balls. I think they rely on a high level of non prize collection as well. I wonder how much of the prize pools get syphoned off like this?

[3oneday]

You can put vouchers on the bar, works for me 8)

[LarryLong]

There would be no cash, no prizes, and no comp fees if I ruled the world.

[razaar]

Amateur golfers win cash every day. Money games and side bets have been part of amateur golf since forever.

[mike]

There would be no cash, no prizes, and no comp fees if I ruled the world.
Excellent point.

[Veefore]

Amateur golfers win cash every day. Money games and side bets have been part of amateur golf since forever.

And that works because the person they are taking cash off is there watching.

Every club has its cheats and in my opinion that situation would only get far worse if outright cash was involved.

[Sand Save]

The incentive of cash may not be the answer due to the overwhelming concern about cheating (fair point) but the prize threashold of $1200 is archaic. There are sponsors and advertisers out there just waiting for the day when they can offer excellent incentives to bring huge numbers back to golf and the old (prehistoric) guard behind the walls of most clubs and district associations won't even consider lobbying to GA for change. Most sporting bodies change their look and feel to keep up with changing times and maintaining membership...... seems change falls into the too hard basket for them.

[Hawkers2008]

The problem of cheating is bad enough now. Sure its only a few people but these guys are basically stealing from all the honest guys, especially when there is something thats worth winning. Add cash to the mix and these guys will have even more reason to practice their dark arts plus it will be more tempting for others to join them.

In general I would say the same about upping the amateur limits. It might be okay if your playing off the beater without handicaps, but what would be the point of that at club level.

I don't totally blame the cheats, I really blame the clubs who don't know their members and/or are too spineless to deal with these guys.

I think SMS like me used to live in Canberra, he probably remembers the infamous Ski Club - they would really have a picnic if prize values went up and/or we played for cash

[Minor_Threat]

If you want cash, sell your prizes..

[PeteyD]

Is cheating really that rife? Doesn't seem to be that much going on that I see.

[razaar]

Is cheating really that rife? Doesn't seem to be that much going on that I see.
Not returning good scores, intentionally playing for high scores and focusing on increasing one's handicap is not in the spirit of the game. It is cheating IMO.

[PeteyD]

How many people do that?

[Pegasus2357]

An example for you relayed to me yesterday at the golf club. 4 golfers playing in a group played for a ball pair against pair. One pair returned net 145 the other pair returned net 154.
Winner of the Balls, pair with net 154.
Better at manipulating their handicaps, winning the holes that mattered and when loosing the hole made sure that they lost the hole.
Prospect of these sort being allowed to play for cash. No thanks

[razaar]

How many people do that?
Honour Board and ambrose events seem to give an insight into who may be guilty of doing this. They may not win but they will be close.;)

[AlexMc]

Other than the resident burgulars that reside in most clubs, do people really play comp golf for the prizes? Isn't it more about the battle between you and your handicap and the course?

[mike]

intentionally playing for high scores and focusing on increasing one's handicap is not in the spirit of the game. It is cheating IMO.
Ray, I agree with this 110%.

[sms316]

Perhaps they should only give cash for scratch events. Come to think of it, let's do away with nett prizes altogether.

:wink:

[mike]

SMS I hate to say this but I agree with you there.

A few years ago when I was club captain I chased up sponsorship to give the GROSS winner of the monthly medal something. (Normally a high/mid handicapper won the MM).
It ended up being a sleeve of Pro V's but it was better than nothing. I don't think low handicappers get enough out of comps.

[razaar]

Perhaps they should only give cash for scratch events. Come to think of it, let's do away with nett prizes altogether.

:wink:
Put it on the agenda for the next staff meeting at RQ.:lol:

[virge666]

Perhaps they should only give cash for scratch events. Come to think of it, let's do away with nett prizes altogether.


Becasue there would be no point turning pro... it is not like the professionals are good good coin !


There would be no cash, no prizes, and no comp fees if I ruled the world.

Yep - it is called America.

=============

If you bring cash prizes in - you bring in the real low markers. It doesn;t help the majority of players who are B graders.

I am a low marker and hate the fact I never win anything other than the odd ball and $25 for scratch...

Shit me to tears.

[grandmasterb]

I wouldn't mind if we were able to use the vouchers to pay for fees rather than have to use them in the bar or overpriced pro shop!!!

[markTHEblake]

Why not? Amateur lawn bowlers do. In fact quite a lot of amateur sports give cash as prizes.

I have a father who played high level amatuer golf and higher in bowls, and an uncle who is a professional bowler so this is a often discussed subject - the lawn bowls comparison has its own issues as well. If my father and uncle win cash in a pairs tournament, dad pockets his half, uncle gives 30% to the taxman.

Golf is played by yourself, so you are "on your honour", the concept is that if we played for money then the honour would become compromised, because simply the refereee that watches over our game, cannot be trusted enough.

Of course some of the events we play for have large enough prizes to make people cheat anyway but the number of incidents are quite low compared to how many people play, simply because the 'honour' underpins our game from the lowest levels. If that gets screwed with, the game of golf will fall apart.

You simply cannot compare golf to Lawn Bowls, as you always have a direct opponent to verify your scoring, and in most cases there are several. There is no issue of being 'on your honour' in Lawn Bowls with respect of handing in that score.

[razaar]

Well said MTB.8)

[sms316]

I have a father who played high level amatuer golf and higher in bowls, and an uncle who is a professional bowler so this is a often discussed subject - the lawn bowls comparison has its own issues as well. If my father and uncle win cash in a pairs tournament, dad pockets his half, uncle gives 30% to the taxman.

Golf is played by yourself, so you are "on your honour", the concept is that if we played for money then the honour would become compromised, because simply the refereee that watches over our game, cannot be trusted enough.

Of course some of the events we play for have large enough prizes to make people cheat anyway but the number of incidents are quite low compared to how many people play, simply because the 'honour' underpins our game from the lowest levels. If that gets screwed with, the game of golf will fall apart.

You simply cannot compare golf to Lawn Bowls, as you always have a direct opponent to verify your scoring, and in most cases there are several. There is no issue of being 'on your honour' in Lawn Bowls with respect of handing in that score.
Maybe I have been thinking about this from a different angle as I was predominantly thinking from an open tournament view. One where you do not choose who you play with.

One thing I have always stood by in my work life is I have never given in to a request for a competitor to play with whom they request. I'll always put them at a similar time, but never together. 2 very simple reasons - 1. takes away the cheating factor, and 2. - playing with your mates is hardly playing under tournament conditions.

I guess OzGolf should be glad they never have to deal with me as a Tournament Director. :wink:

[sms316]

SMS I hate to say this but I agree with you there.
I bet you feel dirty. :wink:

You still owe me a beer though. :lol:



A few years ago when I was club captain I chased up sponsorship to give the GROSS winner of the monthly medal something. (Normally a high/mid handicapper won the MM).
It ended up being a sleeve of Pro V's but it was better than nothing. I don't think low handicappers get enough out of comps.

Under the incoming handicap system low markers are going to get reamed. Clubs should put up a prize for best gross but I doubt it will happen.

[PeteyD]

In what way?

[sms316]

In what way?
Low markers will generally become lower (personally 0.5 will become +1.6 atm). High markers will generally become higher.

Not a complaint as such personally because what gets my juices flowing is open scratch tourneys (not that this exists atm due to work). Basically I will be pretty much paying comp fees to maintain a handicap.

[Hawkers2008]

In what way?

Because (and this is a generalisation) as we transition to new system low handicaps will find their handicaps will stay the same or reduce and mid to high handicappers will stay the same to increase.

Other things being equal low handicap players will be a bit less competitive. That said their consistency tends to give them a bite of an edge at the moment so maybe this is just evening things out.

[PeteyD]

I reckon your calculating is wrong.

I think I get it. The quick blowout theory. ONce it settles I doubt it will be much different.

How do low cappers get reemed when you play in different divisions anyway?

[sms316]

I reckon your calculating is wrong.

I think I get it. The quick blowout theory. ONce it settles I doubt it will be much different.

How do high cappers get reemed when you play in different divisions anyway?
Seems to be a Qld thing, but I have found that all golfers play in one open grade more often up here, but that could be because I never play on Saturdays.

Honestly, I have never been more tempted to blow out my handicap intentionally than I am right now. I won't do it because I want to get as low as possible and push for rep stuff (as unlikely as that is).

[razaar]

Under the incoming handicap system low markers are going to get reamed. Clubs should put up a prize for best gross but I doubt it will happen.
In my view, low markers should get a better shake of it than under the existing system, because the slope index is calculated on a scratch rating (how a scratch player is expected to score)and a bogey (18 h'cap is expected to score) rating based on course difficulty as against how 12% of the field play the course. The system should (in theory) provide a handicap applicable to your playing level on all slope rated courses. Time will tell how it works in a competition oriented environment as against a mainly social environment (USA).

[Dr Turf]

Low markers will generally become lower (personally 0.5 will become +1.6 atm). High markers will generally become higher.

Not a complaint as such personally because what gets my juices flowing is open scratch tourneys (not that this exists atm due to work). Basically I will be pretty much paying comp fees to maintain a handicap.


Don't pay comp fees and just play socially and have your score verified which is allowed (unbelievably) in the new system.

[Iain]

I didn't think they were bringing that part in?

[Daves]

I didn't think they were bringing that part in?

Eventually they are intending to, but not for a year or two I believe.

[adlo]

According to the last thing I read we can use social scores.

[markTHEblake]

Maybe I have been thinking about this from a different angle as I was predominantly thinking from an open tournament view. One where you do not choose who you play with.

My view remains the same.I am not saying that I dont want more money in golf but I understand the fundamental behind the R&A's position, they will never concede the amateur rules issue.

One doesnt have to play with mates to be able to cheat.Peter McWhinney is in charge of discipline at the PGA and apparently he is busier than ever 'counselling' golfers basically being accused of cheating.



It is interesting what you say about sponsors itching to pour money into the game. The amount of money going into lawn bowls is enormous, as a result it is today one of the hottest sports for young people.

Perhaps this My Perfect Round concept is going to allow sponsors to tap into that national market, that they just wouldnt get with local club sponsorship. if the money is really there on tap, this could get it out.

[Yossarian]

Lawn bowls is popular with young people because you get beer at 1950's prices.

[virge666]

It is interesting what you say about sponsors itching to pour money into the game. The amount of money going into lawn bowls is enormous, as a result it is today one of the hottest sports for young people.


Sponsors don't support the Pro-Am circuit, why would they sponsor amateur golf ?

[Oldplayer]

I play Lawn bowls and in the premier pennant divisions in my district the great majority of the players are under 30.

[sms316]

It is interesting what you say about sponsors itching to pour money into the game. The amount of money going into lawn bowls is enormous, as a result it is today one of the hottest sports for young people.
I never said anything about sponsors itching to throw money at amateur golf.

[LarryLong]

Surely kids who play lawn bowls are still getting beaten up these days, aren't they?

What's the world coming to?

[virge666]

Surely kids who play lawn bowls are still getting beaten up these days, aren't they?

What's the world coming to?


Exactly - it is like going to the golf course to only putt for four hours... no wonder there aren't sober.

[Sand Save]

Is cheating rife in the professional ranks??? I would think not due to the concequences that they would face if caught, what happens to members if caught? NOT enough!

[virge666]

Is cheating rife in the professional ranks??? I would think not due to the concequences that they would face if caught, what happens to members if caught? NOT enough!


On the Pro Am circuit - I can name 3 guys that were "known" to have questionable scorecards.

The pressure is quite high when you are struggling to make $400 a week and then have to pay traveling expenses...

[Hawkers2008]

Is cheating rife in the professional ranks??? I would think not due to the concequences that they would face if caught, what happens to members if caught? NOT enough!

Things are pretty tough on the pro-am circuit. The total value of the pro-am circuit was probably more 20 years ago than it is today and it would cost something like 3 times to play it now as it did then.

Its easy to get tempted and people can have moments of weakness. There is a former world number 1 player who got himself into some bother in Australia over both cheating and bad debts when he was younger and foolish.

[IanO]

One social club I am involved with have really crappy prizes for the round but great prizes that are drawn as a raffle. So the good prizes are a matter of luck and the good scores are for bragging about.

[Hawkers2008]

One social club I am involved with have really crappy prizes for the round but great prizes that are drawn as a raffle. So the good prizes are a matter of luck and the good scores are for bragging about.

I play a bit with a social club that is run by a guy as a part of a business - Bushranger Golf (www.bushrangergolf.com.au (http://www.bushrangergolf.com.au)). They have smallish prizes which helps to keep the cheats at bay. The owner is trying get bigger though and is running a series of parallel events that have much bigger prizes. I am hoping that it doesn't attract the cheats or he manages to keep a tight rein on them.

[markTHEblake]

Is cheating rife in the professional ranks???

didnt i just say a page ago that cheating is rife in the professional ranks with qualification!

[Johnny Canuck]

On the Pro Am circuit - I can name 3 guys that were "known" to have questionable scorecards.

The pressure is quite high when you are struggling to make $400 a week and then have to pay traveling expenses...

I have a mate that was doing some caddying on the pro-am/smaller pro ranks. He told me that there are a few known cheats out there and the others turn a blind eye to it. No one wants to be the whistleblower.

[zigwah]

I have a mate that was doing some caddying on the pro-am/smaller pro ranks. He told me that there are a few known cheats out there and the others turn a blind eye to it. No one wants to be the whistleblower.

But do they sort their own out?

I have never heard of anyone not putting in a good card, i've suspected guys have put the breaks on.

[markTHEblake]

No one wants to be the whistleblower.

You may be right there, on the other hand, the cheats are taking money off others.

mate of mine handed his playing partner his scorecard back and told him to leave the course. The cheat was the one who complained to the pga officials, and denied everything, so his score stood.

A month later its heard the same guy has been up before the officials two more times.

check out a few tournament scores and see how many DQ's there are, how many really are sore feet? It seems a lot of them are players withdrawing their scores voluntarily.

[Webster]

On the Pro Am circuit - I can name 3 guys that were "known" to have questionable scorecards.


so name them then.

[adlo]

so name them then.


Would pics suffice?

[Johnny Canuck]

But do they sort their own out?

I have never heard of anyone not putting in a good card, i've suspected guys have put the breaks on.

I asked the same question and why it didn't happen.

My mate said that one of the guys was one of the biggest bastards out there.

[zigwah]

I asked the same question and why it didn't happen.

My mate said that one of the guys was one of the biggest bastards out there.


the bigger they are the harder they drop.

Driver right behind the knee

[markTHEblake]

My mate said that one of the guys was one of the biggest bastards out there.

There is indeed a cloud over one very big bastard right now (not from the west though)

[Sydney Hacker]

There is indeed a cloud over one very big bastard right now (not from the west though)

Did this gent get a lot of attention not long ago ? Shortly after winning a few pro-ams ?

[3oneday]

There is a former world number 1 player who got himself into some bother in Australia over both cheating and bad debts when he was younger and foolish.

Vijay was accused but always claimed innocence.

There is always rumour and innuendo about cheats, unfortunately easily perpetuated on golf forums. Unless you see it yourself most of what you hear is probably chinese whispers.

[Hawkers2008]

I never actually said it was Vijay although there were accusations against him that were published in AGD and/or GA magazines years ago and I vaguely recall that the artcile mentioned that he had been sanctioned by the PGA of Aust.

[markTHEblake]

SH - too close to home to say more. But just talk on the street wondering why so many DQ's

[Daggs]

On a different tangent how much are your comp fees ? How many play n pay? and what are the prizes worth? Ours are good percentages but ive heard of some that are a blatant rip off.... pro shop and club making a killing every week!!!