Some Swing Myths.

[virge666]

Quite liked this...

Question One: What gives the ball its initial direction: clubface angle or path?

Answer: Clubface angle is the primary determinant for starting direction, upwards of 85 to 90%. Data from Doppler radar-based launch monitors such as Trackman and Flightscope has confirmed this. A surprising number of pros will tell you that the swing path determines the starting line, but as is often the case in golf instruction, what the pros tell you and what they actually do in reality are two very different things.

Question Two: If a golfer wants to hit the biggest draw - would he move the weight the furthest forward or the furthest back?

Answer: Forward. Players whose weight is the furthest back are the biggest slicers of the ball. This simply has to do with the arc of the swing, a semi-circle transcribed on the ground. Players who hit a push-draw hit the ball on the back side of the circle when the club is still swinging outward and downward to the golf ball. Players who hit deflected slices hit the ball on the forward side of the circle while the club is moving more out to in. Moving the weight forward moves the centre of the circle forward.

Question Three: Does the spine's actual angle taken at address (flexion from the hips) stay that way throughout the backswing? Or does the spine extend/straighten as the hips come out of their anterior tilt?

Answer: The spine goes from flexion to extension as the hips come out of their anterior tilt. The spine tilts to the left at the same time the extension is happening. This is how the golfer stays in their inclination to the ground.
If you've ever been told to "maintain your spine angle" then your instructor is committing perhaps the most serious sin in golf instruction. Nobody on the PGA Tour truly "maintains their spine angle."

Question Four: The correct hand path is more a) circular or b) straight back and then down the target line in order to keep the clubhead online longer?

Answer: a) circular. Golf is not croquet - we play to the side of the ball on a tilted angle. The circular arc is a byproduct of that. Moving the hands in too much of a linear manner is the slowest way to swing the club and predisposes the golfer to lifting the arms an excessive amount.

Question Five: Which is a true commonality of all the game's greatest players: a) grip b) posture c) hitting the ground in front of the ball?

Answer: c) hitting the ground in front of the ball. The game's greatest players have played with grips and postures completely across the board, from strong to weak and hunched to erect, but they all hit the ground in front of the golf ball.
By contrast the poorest players hit the ground in a wide area of dispersion behind the ball. It is also worth noting that many average or poor players have better grips and setups than some touring professionals.

Question Six: To square the clubface at impact a golfer should a) feel a conscious release of the club through a rolling and rotation of the wrists and forearms b) feel passive wrists and forearms to hold the club square to the arc the club is swinging on?

Answer: b) feel passive wrists and forearms to hold the club square to the arc - a conscious release is something that, in itself, tips the club shaft out and over the top causing the golfer to hit too much out to in or across the ball.

Question Seven: During the backswing the right handed golfer's right knee should straighten (not lock but become straighter) to allow the hips to turn completely and on a tilted angle? True or false?

Answer: True. If the golfer's right knee stays flexed the hips cannot turn to the proper extent and they do not maintain their tilted angle. It is at this point that the arms lift excessively and the beginnings of an over-the-top motion are in place.

Question Eight: The center of the golfer's hips must be in front of the golf ball (assuming a baseline ball position) at impact. True or false?

Answer: True. Don't take my word for it. Simply watch video of the game's greatest players.

[TheNuclearOne]

The sandtrap comes up with some great articles.

[markTHEblake]

Keeping your eye on the Ball.

[virge666]

Q2 and Q3 are the only ones I am a bit "iffy" on...

[3oneday]

Yep, all of these I have thought deeply about.

[TheNuclearOne]

Yep, all of these I have thought deeply about.

Which one would you say was most important to your own golfing endeavours 3?

:mrgreen:

[3oneday]

Which one would you say was most important to your own golfing endeavours 3?

:mrgreen:



Question Six: To square the clubface at impact a golfer should a) feel a conscious release of the club through a rolling and rotation of the wrists and forearms b) feel passive wrists and forearms to hold the club square to the arc the club is swinging on?

Answer: b) feel passive wrists and forearms to hold the club square to the arc - a conscious release is something that, in itself, tips the club shaft out and over the top causing the golfer to hit too much out to in or across the ball.
Undoubtedly the answer to question 6.

[Toolish]

Question 1 always generates some good arguements.

[TheNuclearOne]

Undoubtedly the answer to question 6.


:smt046

[razaar]

Didn't get past Q1 without a 'WTF'.

Initial direction of ball hit with clubface oblique to swingpath is determined by lots of factors -loft, clubhead speed /compression, point of impact on the clubface (in relation to the centre of gravity) point of impact on the ball (downward, upward, sideways), lie angle (topography).

How do you explain a drive that starts off right of target and draws back to target and one that starts left of target and slices off the fairway etcetera.?

Conversely a putt will go where the putter face is aiming on a flat surface.

[3oneday]

Conversely a putt will go where the putter face is aiming on a flat surface.really ? even if I put a slice or hook stroke on it ?

Do I need to google oblique ? I've never heard the word used in golf talk... ever !

[PeteyD]

Ray, basic physics says it will be square to the clubface initially, exactly the same as the putter. Has nothing to do with further flightpath. Not sure how this idea is affected by twisting of the clubface on toe hits etc. Note that it does say it is the major determinant, not the only one.

[Scottt]

If the answer to Q2 is true, why do I only hit enormous next-fairway hooks when I get stuck on my back foot?

[PeteyD]

If the answer to Q2 is true, why do I only hit enormous next-fairway hooks when I get stuck on my back foot?

Probably because that is what you think happened, whereas you really are just a spastic.

[Iain]

Didn't get past Q1 without a 'WTF'.

How do you explain a drive that starts off right of target and draws back to target and one that starts left of target and slices off the fairway etcetera?
A push draw has the face open at impact and the swing path is from in to out, but the swing path must be more in to out than the face is open, so that the face is closed to the path. Creating the push draw. Opposite for the cut.


really ? even if I put a slice or hook stroke on it ?
The friction of the grass will void any hook or slice spin you think you can put on a putt..


Do I need to google oblique ? I've never heard the word used in golf talk... ever !

let me know what it is when you do!!

[razaar]

really ? even if I put a slice or hook stroke on it ?

Do I need to google oblique ? I've never heard the word used in golf talk... ever !
That's because it is not a ho word.:wink:

[Scottt]

Probably because that is what you think happened, whereas you really are just a spastic.

:-s

[3oneday]

Initial direction of ball hit with clubface hoblique to swingpath.


That's because it is not a ho word.:wink:

ok, fixed it ;)

[razaar]

Q3. Make up your own mind on this one...best to select the back view of the swings.

http://www.pgatour.com/swingplex/02/19/61/index.html

[razaar]

Q 8. Again make up your own mind on this one from the swingplex vids.

[razaar]

Ray, basic physics says it will be square to the clubface initially, exactly the same as the putter. Has nothing to do with further flightpath. Not sure how this idea is affected by twisting of the clubface on toe hits etc. Note that it does say it is the major determinant, not the only one.
Almost missed your post Pete.:)

The more the ball is compressed the longer it will stay on the clubface. Even if it is only for one inch, both ball and clubface are travelling in the same direction until the ball pushes itself off the face. IMO the greater the compression the more influence the swingpath will have on the initial direction of the ball.

[Iain]

Almost missed your post Pete.:)

The more the ball is compressed the longer it will stay on the clubface. Even if it is only for one inch, both ball and clubface are travelling in the same direction until the ball pushes itself off the face. IMO the greater the compression the more influence the swingpath will have on the initial direction of the ball.

It just means initial direction is decided by clubface at seperation rather than impact.

Pretty sure that it's been proven, that the original post is correct...

[virge666]

Ray,

Iain is all over you here and he is correct, not quite sure why you are arguing... No-one cares about impact - it is all about seperation. if the clubface is closed at seperation - then the ball goes left. if swing path is in to out, it goes "lefter", if swingpath is out to in, the ball cuts and you get a "pull-cut".

Even golf machine had this sorted in the 70's.

The other questions seem to depend on swing pattern. 2 & 3 are very iffy, this guy sounds a bit "Stack and Tilt", especially the spine angle and weight question. Does he mean upper body weight or lower body weight ?

As Scott said you can hang behind with your upper body and flip your hands for huge hook, so I guess this stuff just matches his swing pattern and better players. So maybe if you can hook it with your weight on your front foot - you are doing OK.

I am and have been a fan of any swing pattern that has an almost impact like setup position, stable lower half and a solid right shoulder, for me it is sort of the "holy grail" of a golf swing as it teaches the bit that is connected to the club what to do. Hence the reason I don't rate handsy players like Bubba Watson and Hank Kuhene.

So depending on what you believe - depends on your priorities. I posted this because if you follow them - you wont be that far off...

[razaar]

Anthony

I agree with Ian 100% in fact I stated the exact same thing in another thread. If I want to hit a straight draw (one or two metres of draw), I want the clubface to be square on target and wipe the ball from inside to out with the clubface. The ball starts out right of target and move back on target. You may be the only one to see it move but it is there. Another to contemplate is closing the face of a wedge (or any high lofted iron)to the target with an inside to out swing path. Do you know what happens?

[markTHEblake]

Do you know what happens?


lie angle gets messed up?

[razaar]

The ball starts out a fraction left of target with a straight penitrating flight and some run. The loft overrides any side spin and the ball running at an angle up the face keeps it almost straight to target. It is a shot well worth experimenting with in short game practice for playing into a head wind or a left to right wind (for righties).

[virge666]

Anthony

I agree with Ian 100% in fact I stated the exact same thing in another thread. If I want to hit a straight draw (one or two metres of draw), I want the clubface to be square on target and wipe the ball from inside to out with the clubface. The ball starts out right of target and move back on target. You may be the only one to see it move but it is there. Another to contemplate is closing the face of a wedge (or any high lofted iron)to the target with an inside to out swing path. Do you know what happens?


That is old thinking mate - sorry. or it could be a definition/communication thing.

I have bolded two points, the first being square clubface - this mean the ball will start straight, it has to. The inside out clubpath just puts hook spin on the ball. If the ball leaves a square clubface it HAS to go straight. The ball does not start out right unless the clubface is open. Anyone remember the old adage, closing clubface through impact . . .

2nd bit as I said is definition... "wiping" the ball from in to out will HOOK the ball - not draw it. Wiping it up will draw the ball. Again - you have your right hand going inside out, and I have my right hand going up with my body. Old Swing method vs new swing ideaology. They both work but each has his preference.

The RULE still stands though... if the clubface is square to the target line the ball will start straight, your path will have little change on the initial direction of the ball.

As for your last question - the ball will start left and go "lefter", the loft will hide it a bit as there is so much of it... but it will be the wedge equivilent of a duck hook.

You can use the same methodogy with Tennis, the softer ball and friction from the felt and strings changes it slightly - but the basic principles are still there.

Your thoughts ?

[razaar]

Have no idea what my right hand is doing coming into impact. I know what it has done through impact by my follow through position though. Practice always includes follow though positions for shot shapes in my sessions at the range.

I think you will be surprised how similar our swing methods are.:)

[s12raider]

Well mine is just screwed beyond belief. 2nd time at range and still the slice is there. I'm convinced I'm bringing my right arm in (a la chicken wing) (left handed) when making contact and when it goes straight (some of the time) it seems because I'm firing my hips quicker than before.

[virge666]

I think you will be surprised how similar our swing methods are.:)

It is more what your upper and lower body are doing... and I reckon we are going to be very different. Especially in lower body and hence hand action.



Well mine is just screwed beyond belief.

There is always a lot going on with your swing - as I get better I will be down at Warringah chipping and pitching... Your coming as well.

:)

[s12raider]

Excellent - i'll bring some Ardbeg.

[moree golfer]

I just read this article and it seems to contain a lot of sense. I still struggle to get my swing path on track and consequently I get a right shaped shot, the degree of which depends on if I get the clubface square or slightly open.

Ball Flight Laws (http://thesandtrap.com/playing_tips/ball_flight_laws)

[virge666]

"For decades, the PGA Teaching Manual has contained some incorrect information pertaining to a golf ball's flight. That information can be summed up as follows: "The golf ball starts on the direction of the swing path and curves back to where the clubface was aimed at impact."

Thats what I mean - 1960's thinking...

[zigwah]

can someone explain seperation please :)

Is it seperation of the ball from the clubface?

[zigwah]

Ray,

Iain is all over you here and he is correct, not quite sure why you are arguing... No-one cares about impact - it is all about seperation. if the clubface is closed at seperation - then the ball goes left. if swing path is in to out, it goes "lefter", if swingpath is out to in, the ball cuts and you get a "pull-cut".

Even golf machine had this sorted in the 70's.

The other questions seem to depend on swing pattern. 2 & 3 are very iffy, this guy sounds a bit "Stack and Tilt", especially the spine angle and weight question. Does he mean upper body weight or lower body weight ?

As Scott said you can hang behind with your upper body and flip your hands for huge hook, so I guess this stuff just matches his swing pattern and better players. So maybe if you can hook it with your weight on your front foot - you are doing OK.

I am and have been a fan of any swing pattern that has an almost impact like setup position, stable lower half and a solid right shoulder, for me it is sort of the "holy grail" of a golf swing as it teaches the bit that is connected to the club what to do. Hence the reason I don't rate handsy players like Bubba Watson and Hank Kuhene.

So depending on what you believe - depends on your priorities. I posted this because if you follow them - you wont be that far off...

is this at address or impact virge?

[henno]

can someone explain seperation please :)

When a mummy doesn't like that a daddy plays golf every weekend, she decides to run away with half of daddy's stuff and find a newer, younger daddy.

[Peter]

Then they get divorced and she takes the other half.

[razaar]

can someone explain seperation please :)

Is it seperation of the ball from the clubface?
Yes Zig, when the ball leaves the clubface.

[zigwah]

When a mummy doesn't like that a daddy plays golf every weekend, she decides to run away with half of daddy's stuff and find a newer, younger daddy.

Does the daddy get to keep his golf gear?

[virge666]

is this at address or impact virge?

Throughout the swing.

Right elbow stays connected and the right shoulder stays solid

[virge666]

When a mummy doesn't like that a daddy plays golf every weekend, she decides to run away with half of daddy's stuff and find a newer, younger daddy.

:smt038 :smt038 :smt038

[zigwah]

what feeling are you lower handicap guys getting in your hands and arms?

I have been trying to work on this, at trying to get my arms and hand to fall into not collapse the hitting area, just wondering about this feeling, just soooooo hard to get those hands to drop just by gravity and not hit early, leaving the hands way in front of the clubface

[razaar]

You go first.;)

[virge666]

Hands nothing - I try to swing my upper half on my lower half.

I like to keep my lower half very solid and level. I turn my hips - but I try not to let the right hip drop.

[Nick E]

The RULE still stands though... if the clubface is square to the target line the ball will start straight, your path will have little change on the initial direction of the ball.

but only IF??????

[virge666]

The RULE still stands though... if the clubface is square to the target line the ball will start straight, your path will have little change on the initial direction of the ball.

but only IF??????

That is not the arguement though . . . see post 33.

This is a MAJOR change of thinking with regards to the golf ball laws...

[razaar]

Hands nothing - I try to swing my upper half on my lower half.

I like to keep my lower half very solid and level. I turn my hips - but I try not to let the right hip drop.

I just saw this post Virge. Do you still think this way? If you watch the swings of all the members of the last European Ryder Cup side you will observe that they all have similar lower body actions where the left leg is almost straight at impact with the left hip higher than the right. This is to accomodate the steep shoulder tilt of the downswing. The right hip hasn't dropped but has remained level and turns to the left on that level because the right knee stays at the same level. The left hip drops back to its previous level well into the throughswing past impact.

I had this on a vid. but the host site removed it.

[razaar]

The RULE still stands though... if the clubface is square to the target line the ball will start straight, your path will have little change on the initial direction of the ball.

but only IF??????
That rule only applies with a direct hit. A direct hit is considered to be a strike with a low lofted driver because the ball rebounds off the face from where it makes contact with the clubface. With lofted clubs the ball slides up the face. If the face and the swing path are at odds to each other the ball will slide up the face diagonally so the swing path will have some influence on the rebounding golf ball. With a driver of 10* the influence is 80% clubface 20% swing path.

[virge666]

I just saw this post Virge. Do you still think this way?

Always have mate - the left hip has to get out of the way - I have no trouble with the left hip being higher as long as the right rip stays level and doesn't drop.

If the right hip goes down then it is a SLIDE/TILT. If the right hip stays level then it is rotation.

The last part of this puzzle for me is the hip/pelvic/core area and spine angle staying "connected" and moving as one - this takes all the pressure off the lower back, which to me is rather important.

Think Hogan and Trevino - that kind of lower body action is my preference, where all the lower body rotation is done prior to impact and the shoulders look as though they are square.

[razaar]

Always have mate - the left hip has to get out of the way - I have no trouble with the left hip being higher as long as the right rip stays level and doesn't drop.

If the right hip goes down then it is a SLIDE/TILT. If the right hip stays level then it is rotation.

The last part of this puzzle for me is the hip/pelvic/core area and spine angle staying "connected" and moving as one - this takes all the pressure off the lower back, which to me is rather important.

Think Hogan and Trevino - that kind of lower body action is my preference, where all the lower body rotation is done prior to impact and the shoulders look as though they are square.
The trick here is to maintain the same hip angle as at address until just past impact. It is easy to do for a shorter person, a bit more difficult for the taller player who has to bend more at the hips. Therefore, for the taller person to maintain the hip angle, the resistance part of the lower body has to be the feet and knees. There will be some rotation of the hips depending on individual flexibility, but it is important to fully turn the shoulders 90* on full shots against the resistance of the feet and knees.

It is advisable to release the back past the ball by allowing the head to move over the left hip.

[virge666]

The trick here is to maintain the same hip angle as at address until just past impact. It is easy to do for a shorter person, a bit more difficult for the taller player who has to bend more at the hips. Therefore, for the taller person to maintain the hip angle, the resistance part of the lower body has to be the feet and knees. There will be some rotation of the hips depending on individual flexibility, but it is important to fully turn the shoulders 90* on full shots against the resistance of the feet and knees.

It is advisable to release the back past the ball by allowing the head to move over the left hip.

Again mate - this is where we differ - this to me is trying to fix a movement without find the cause.

To me - it would be much easier to find out why the body is sliding as opposed to working on the technical stuff you have outlined. Put the body in a position where it does't need to slide to get to the ball and your apples. And that usually comes from setup and take away.

And please don't use the term 90* shoulder turn around me . . . pisses me off almost as much at "clubshaft parallel at the top" and "keeping your head still".

[razaar]

Again mate - this is where we differ - this to me is trying to fix a movement without find the cause.

To me - it would be much easier to find out why the body is sliding as opposed to working on the technical stuff you have outlined. Put the body in a position where it does't need to slide to get to the ball and your apples. And that usually comes from setup and take away.

And please don't use the term 90* shoulder turn around me . . . pisses me off almost as much at "clubshaft parallel at the top" and "keeping your head still".

I'm not understanding what you mean Virge about trying to fix a movement and the rest of it too has me scratching my head.
The 90* shoulder turn is better insurance of getting back to square at impact than an under turn, especially if the hands get to head high and above in the backswing. Over to you.:)

[Toolish]

Don't think this has been posted before here..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eEHiY5iv5u4&

Also razaar do you have any evidence of the ball sliding up the clubface. I just don't believe it.

[virge666]

Over to you.:)

OK, lets see if I can make sense. Let's start with a few of my beliefs.

1. I don't want to rely on my hand eye co-ordination to play the game
2. I don't want to rely on timing to hit the ball well.
3. I want to be consistant, even though I practice for about 1 hour a week on a range with little to no short game or putting practice. My aim is to play of 3 or thereabouts.

I strongly belive that if you just create the correct angles in your body, you can release the clubhead with out extra movements such as sliding, flipping or saving the shot with your hands. I am also a strong believer in controlling the spin and the trajectory of the shot.

Now with all that being said... where you and I differ is that you want to control the clubhead with your hands and let your body find out how to get to a position that suits that hand action. All the tuition to offer here is of a technical nature based around "educating the hands" and controlling the clubface and path with your hands and arms. This works, but it is not my preference due to rule #1 above.

The difference again is that I do not release the clubhead with my hands - I release the clubhead with my body rotation. This means that most of the advice you offer me will not work as my hands are not controlling the release of the clubhead. So for me to fix issues and problems in my golf swing, I will adjust the way my body works through impact and just leave my arms and hand alone to follow my body rotation.

So let's take getting stuck . . . every good players problem.

Fixing it your way - You can take the club more outside on the backswing, or start rotating your left wrist on the down swing ealrier to get the club more in front of you, you can introduce some "casting" also to get the clubhead in front of your body, there are a few other drills in hitting low cuts to sort the problem out.

To me - getting stuck caused by two things - the upper body being to far behind the ball at impact and/or the lower half stopping through impact. So I would fix the problem by covering the ball more through impact and really getting that lower half starting the downswing. For mine, the arms and hands are a constant - I don't want them to do anything other than store lag and hold the rubber end.

As for 90* shoulder turn - 90* to what ?? The shoulder is a hyper mobile joint, You cannot give a 2 dimension measurement to a joint that can move in 3 dimensions. Not to mention that 99% of players cannot get a true 90* shoulder turn without reverse pivoting or tilting the hips. Friggin stupid instruction as it doesn't encompass the 5 feet of body action below it.

You and I need to get together in person ! :)

[razaar]

Virge what are you going on about? My comments in post #50 were meant to be helpful in the context of your words "The last part of this puzzle for me is the hip/pelvic/core area and spine angle staying "connected" and moving as one - this takes all the pressure off the lower back, which to me is rather important."

[virge666]

Virge what are you going on about? My comments in post #50 were meant to be helpful in the context of your words "The last part of this puzzle for me is the hip/pelvic/core area and spine angle staying "connected" and moving as one - this takes all the pressure off the lower back, which to me is rather important."

Easy - those three pieces rotate together and stay in their spine angle. The WHOLE hip and core rotates, the left hip does not pull away from the right, the body does not "stand up" and lose it's spine angle, and when this happens you will see your left hip go higher during the rotation due to the lower body weight transfer to the left.

For me it is a feeling of the ENTIRE hip and core section rotating whilst trying to leave the arms and hands behind.

The rest of the blurb is to show why I hate the 90 degree thing... it just doesn't mean anything cause it has no frame of reference.

[McMw]

#2 sounds like the Stack/Tilt method - which many have switched off it - Weir & Badds the 2 more notables...

[virge666]

#2 sounds like the Stack/Tilt method - which many have switched off it - Weir & Badds the 2 more notables...

Yeah mate - it is Stack and Tilt, everyone who release the clubhead with the body is S&T.

FFS

Have a look at your Avatar - see how your hands release high and upwards, that is a hands released swing... You come from the inside and the hands cross over and the club shaft goes vertical. Phil is the same and so is Fowler - you can see it tomorrow on the Memorial.

When you get the chance - watch guys like Hogan, Trevino, Els, Stenson, Westwood, Casey, Scott, Appleby and Allenby. They won't have a follow through like that, they will finish with less "Reverse C" in their body and the club shaft a lot lower and around the body. This is a body release...

It isn't S&T, it isn't hitting vs swinging, it is just the body releasing the clubhead instead of the hands.

One isn't better than the other, they are just different.

[razaar]

Virge what you are describing is sequencing. Is it possible that you are just beginning to understand it as it relates to your own swing? Mate, none of us swing the same, none of us wish to swing the same. Good ball strikers get it right through impact and surprisingly they all have similar positions through impact though they may go about it a different way. Whatever swing method gets you perfect through the ball position is the method for you (you used in the plural).

[PeteyD]

You guys make my head hurt. Hit the ball and find it and hit it again!

[3oneday]

Nah, keep them in here, stops them from elsewhere ;)

[IanO]

You guys make my head hurt. Hit the ball and find it and hit it again!

+1 but it has been really interesting as I now understand what I need to do to hit a draw (and the cause of my fade). The other day I asked my pro what I needed to do to hit a draw (before I read this post) and not once did he mention swinging inside to outside. :o

[LeftyHoges]

+1 but it has been really interesting as I now understand what I need to do to hit a draw (and the cause of my fade). The other day I asked my pro what I needed to do to hit a draw (before I read this post) and not once did he mention swinging inside to outside. :o

Seriously???

Get a different pro, dude.

[Bushka]

Yeah thats the first thing that I got told when i said i want to start hitting a draw. It's also one of the reasons my swing is screwed most of the time. I started tucking my right elbow into my body and swing back so ridiculously far inside that I can't hit anything consistently.

It's all swings and F*******g roundabouts.

[razaar]

Virge what you are describing is sequencing. Is it possible that you are just beginning to understand it as it relates to your own swing? Mate, none of us swing the same, none of us wish to swing the same. Good ball strikers get it right through impact and surprisingly they all have similar positions through impact though they may go about it a different way. Whatever swing method gets you perfect through the ball position is the method for you (you used in the plural).

Tommy (two gloves) Gainey won the Nationwide event today. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dIzdtLcoSgc

;)

[virge666]

Virge what you are describing is sequencing. Is it possible that you are just beginning to understand it as it relates to your own swing? Mate, none of us swing the same, none of us wish to swing the same. Good ball strikers get it right through impact and surprisingly they all have similar positions through impact though they may go about it a different way. Whatever swing method gets you perfect through the ball position is the method for you (you used in the plural).

Never said we did mate . . . I understand how it works for most swing types. My own swing is part of the learning process and also part of your question, but I have a couple of players who use their hands to release the club and one bloke who holds it off through impact a lot like Ricky Barnes and it is not a problem - you just match up the action to the swing pattern.

As for the the bit that is underlined . . . if you really think this to be true, I really don't. I am looking at Ricky Barnes on TV right now and he looks very very different to Phil who looks very different to Tiger who looks very different to Petrovik. If you take a still shot of them at impact, they might be similar - but the actual motions through impact and how they control the clubhead through impact are very different IMO. Especially their upper body.

And whilst sequencing is part of it - players of all calibers have different sequencing so trying to bring that back to your "ideal" player also doesn't work. Though you could probably dumb it down to "Hips, then shoulders, then hands then clubhead", but that is pretty simplistic for someone to follow...

[virge666]

Another idiot out there telling lies . . .

http://www.ussog.com/aboutus/mr_teach_com/lessons/Ball-Flight-Laws.asp

[IanO]

Seriously???

Get a different pro, dude.

Yup ...

[Nick E]

Thats what I mean - 1960's thinking...


Angle of attack that is the secret to the new ball flight laws and what I was trying to get at..... swinging in to out will create a straight ball as will swinging out to in but it all depends on your angle of attack the more you hit down the further left you need to swing to hit it straight the more you hit up the further right you must swing
The club is traveling in three dimensions not two that’s where the old ball flight went wrong

[razaar]

New ball flight laws...what are they?

[razaar]

Found this gem in a golf instruction book published in 1933, about the forearms in the grip.
"the right forearm in the swing should roll at the elbow but not hinge. It should function exactly as it would in bringing the racket back preparatory to making a forearm drive at tennis. Put another way, the arm from shoulder to elbow should move backwards at the same rate as the forearm. That is why tennis players make good golfers. The farther back both arms move above the elbow the longer can the wrist action be deferred and the greater will be the power in the stroke."

Most people don't have the flexibility in their rotator cuffs to get in the right backswing and forward swing positions. Check your flexibility-

Hold a club skywards in your left hand with the arm to shoulder extended horizontally to the side with the elbow to hand vertical and the shaft and clubhead pointing to the sky. Let the shaft fall back behind the forearm so that you can reach across with your right hand and hold the clubhead. The shaft should be touching the back side of the left elbow and the grip held in the fingers (left). Now lever the club head forwards with the right hand pulling the left hand backwards. If you can get the left forearm to a horizonal position in this strertch then your left rotator cuff will allow you to get into the correct follow through position without compromising other muscles in the shoulder. The same applies to the right side for the backswing.