Are Club Golf Comps a Competition?

[lucky]

Just want to get some opinions on the above topic. I am seeing more and more indescretions on the course that has prompted my little rant and it seems that the weekly comps are more of social hit than a real competition. Am I wrong or?
I was amazed the other day when playing a single stab, we had had a little wager against the other pair. On the last hole one of our opposition picked up his partners ball that was in the first cut of rough and placed it nicely on the turf claiming he was identifying his own ball, even though we all saw his ball down the middle of the fairway. Now his partner is a long hitter and with a nice lie was able to reach the par5 in 2 and had a nice eagle putt. I made a few snide remarks about improving the lie etc etc and then the guy snapped at me for having a go at him for what I thought was not in the spirit of the game. Especially after we had won the cash and played skins for the last couple of holes to give them a chance to get their money back.
So the point, are the weekly comps becoming a bit of a joke when, and I know I am not alone, we see very loose interpretations of the rules,most of which I know are not intentional, but it is a competition after all isn't it? I am interested in what everyone else thinks with their local club comps.

[3oneday]

I would be telling him to put it back, or simply adding two to whatever he tells you.

[Tongueboy]

I think this a legacy of the same four blokes playing at the same time every time they play comp. get into their own little comfort zone and of course take liberties because they are all mates

[ParMaster]

The rules are there for a reason and if you break them then you ought to be penalised.

[Webster]

cheating for sure.

[lucky]

I think this a legacy of the same four blokes playing at the same time every time they play comp. get into their own little comfort zone and of course take liberties because they are all mates
Have never played with the guy in question before ( and will not again), but I think you are spot on with the regular group scenario and comfort zone for sure - like the gimme's from 3-4-5 foot.

[pom]

Just want to get some opinions on the above topic. I am seeing more and more indescretions on the course that has prompted my little rant and it seems that the weekly comps are more of social hit than a real competition. Am I wrong or?
I was amazed the other day when playing a single stab, we had had a little wager against the other pair. On the last hole one of our opposition picked up his partners ball that was in the first cut of rough and placed it nicely on the turf claiming he was identifying his own ball, even though we all saw his ball down the middle of the fairway. Now his partner is a long hitter and with a nice lie was able to reach the par5 in 2 and had a nice eagle putt. I made a few snide remarks about improving the lie etc etc and then the guy snapped at me for having a go at him for what I thought was not in the spirit of the game. Especially after we had won the cash and played skins for the last couple of holes to give them a chance to get their money back.
So the point, are the weekly comps becoming a bit of a joke when, and I know I am not alone, we see very loose interpretations of the rules,most of which I know are not intentional, but it is a competition after all isn't it? I am interested in what everyone else thinks with their local club comps.
Quite simply put. They are both cheats. The game is meant to be played to a given set of rules & should be at all times. A little known rule of golf . If a player knowingly lets another competitor break the rules of golf & does not report the breech , He can be penalised too.Hard one to prove but it is there. I think that I would have politely asked him to replace the ball exactly as he found it. Otherwise the penalty would be 2 strokes for hitting from the wrong spot & then DQ if he does not correct his initial mistake! His partner could easily be DQd for agreeing to disregard a rule of golf.

[just]

If a player knowingly lets another competitor break the rules of golf & does not report the breech , He can be penalised too.
Which rule number is this, Pom?
cheers
just

[dc68]

Just want to get some opinions on the above topic. I am seeing more and more indescretions on the course that has prompted my little rant and it seems that the weekly comps are more of social hit than a real competition. Am I wrong or?
I was amazed the other day when playing a single stab, we had had a little wager against the other pair. On the last hole one of our opposition picked up his partners ball that was in the first cut of rough and placed it nicely on the turf claiming he was identifying his own ball, even though we all saw his ball down the middle of the fairway. Now his partner is a long hitter and with a nice lie was able to reach the par5 in 2 and had a nice eagle putt. I made a few snide remarks about improving the lie etc etc and then the guy snapped at me for having a go at him for what I thought was not in the spirit of the game. Especially after we had won the cash and played skins for the last couple of holes to give them a chance to get their money back.
So the point, are the weekly comps becoming a bit of a joke when, and I know I am not alone, we see very loose interpretations of the rules,most of which I know are not intentional, but it is a competition after all isn't it? I am interested in what everyone else thinks with their local club comps.

Names? PM if you like.

[peter_rs]

If you do nothing you are no better.

[Moe Norman]

you should have pinged him, the only thing reducing comps to social hits is blokes not having the balls to call stuff like that.

[markTHEblake]

Interesting point Lucky, i dont think this is limited to clubs though.

Had this discussion with a pro mate today, and he was shocked by what he saw by a fellow pro golfer in a recent four rounder. He was watching him carefully after a suspicious incident earlier in the round and basically called the guy out on blatantly put another ball on the ground in the rough in a spot where a few mins before there was no ball, and there was a another ball outside the fence nearby.

He told him to leave the course now, but the golfer refused, played out the round, faced the match officials at the end, neither golfer backed down, so he wasnt DQ'd or penalised, but he is a marked man now, as all the other golfers were asking about 'what happened there'. Would seem that the apparent cheat was complaining to everyone about being accused of cheating.

Add to that there is another new golf pro, began in a blaze of glory on the proam circuits, but upon playing in larger events is mysteriously being DQ'd a lot.

He also mentionedPeter McWhinney, who is in charge of the disciplinary issues with the PGA is having very very busy this year, lots of private 'sessions' with many many tour players. Seems that the magic pencils and foot wedges are becoming a very popular strategy these days.

[Hux]

Don't have this crap in our club - score is made when the rattle is heard in the cup. Deliberately improving someone's lie would be called all the time. Can't honestly believe someone would try that to be honest!!

[lucky]

you should have pinged him, the only thing reducing comps to social hits is blokes not having the balls to call stuff like that.
Interesting comment - it was recent and not being his marker has left me with only one alternative, so please do not make a rash statement like "not having the balls to call stuff like that" before things have played out.

[Fishman Dan]

I blame Tiger.

[lucky]

If you do nothing you are no better.
See post #14

[lucky]

What happened in this instance in my mind is not in question - What I am interested in is, is this an isolated case or are the comps in your club glorified social games?

[lucky]

Don't have this crap in our club - score is made when the rattle is heard in the cup. Deliberately improving someone's lie would be called all the time. Can't honestly believe someone would try that to be honest!!

Can not believe it either, especially when playing partners are standing 5m away:shock:

[markTHEblake]

I not being his marker has left me with only one alternative.

The marker has no special responsibility in cases like this - it is a common fallacy that the marker has some sort of special jurisdiction or authority (over and above anyone else)

We often hear about a marker refusing to sign a scorecard, however that is a threat that really carries no weight officially. The marker *must* attest to the scores he agrees with, then on the subject of the dispute report the facts to the committee. If the marker still refuses to sign the card, like obviously when the committee rules in favour of the player, then the committee can accept anyone else to authenticate the score and if none will accept the players word.

This is affirmed in the situation i reported above at a recent pro tournament, the marker was refusing to sign the card, but was told by the PGA that it wouldnt matter, because if he didnt, they would sign it and the players score stands.

So what I mean is, even a spectator can report a rules breach, ie the famous Craig Stadler incident!

[Minor_Threat]

I dont understand why you didnt take it any further? You are stating that your mid week comp is turning into a sham, yet you let this blokes mate prefer his lie right in front of you?

We have no problems at my club with the issues you mentioned above!

[lucky]

I dont understand why you didnt take it any further? You are stating that your mid week comp is turning into a sham, yet you let this blokes mate prefer his lie right in front of you?

We have no problems at my club with the issues you mentioned above!
Please read post #14, things have not played out fully yet. Nowhere have I said I am NOT going to report the matter.

[Minor_Threat]

Please read post #14, things have not played out fully yet. Nowhere have I said I am NOT going to report the matter.If you were that concerned about it, you have reported it already!

Each to their own, I would have handled it much differently...

[henno]

If you were that concerned about it, you have reported it already!

Maybe he has?

[3oneday]

Nowhere have I said I am NOT going to report the matter.


Maybe he has?

I read this as hasn't.

I reported someone for cheating once, got the same sort of reaction as what MTB says, where the guy went around complaining about being called a cheat.

Probably the only difference is that the cheater no longer plays.

[dc68]

Phil... names please.

[lucky]

If you were that concerned about it, you have reported it already!

Each to their own, I would have handled it much differently...
With respect, you do not have all the details as to how I have handled it so not really fair for you to make that call.

[lucky]

Phil... names please.

Will catchya next week and have a chat.

[Grunt]

I reported a guy once, who happened to be the Captains Son.
I was first removed off the Match Committee, then from the B grade Pennants team & then was told of the Captains intent to get me removed from the club. Things can get ugly.

Did me a favour in the end, I left the club before I did or said anything that would have meant no club taking me as a member that had been barred from a club.

[PerryGroves]

Lucky,

We don't have the problem as you described (which I consider blatant), or at least I haven't seen it. I know people say there is no difference in "cheating" but I still consider that most people do not do things deliberately. What we do have is what every club has, punters who simply do not know the rules. I would consider myself better than most yet it is amazing when the situation crops up how little I know

I did see one of the younger guys taking what I considered a very dodgy drop on an adjacent fairway. I approached him after the game and asked him the circumstances. In this case he had taken the advice of his marker ( I then made my concerns known to the marker). I also quietly chipped an older bloke for pushing down grass behind his ball, on his way to a rousing 25 points. Said to me he needed to do it because the grass was too long to get his putter behind it, had to laugh.

How do you judge intent, it's impossible and thats why its not covered in the rules. Nevertheless I will continue to play it the way I have, no sense making a song and dance if the guy isn't going to win a ball, simply make it known to them.

This picking up the ball thing is becoming more prevalent, when did you need to lift your ball 3ft off the ground to identify it. Bad trend

[Moe Norman]

Blake your example is a good one, because the other pro immediately called him and also reported (outed) him, which is the correct action.

Lucky, why don't you tell us what your action has been, intead of getting defensive when we suggest you should have reported him immediately?

[dhills2]

Whether one considers it a competition or just a social round the rules should be adhered to if you are playing in a competition field. I don't mind if someone makes an honest mistake & breaks the rules but it gives me the sh*ts when someone goes around the course blatantly cheating. The other week I had an elderly lady play in our mixed comp & she was taking preferred lies from 2 metres off the fairway, not counting strokes when she accidentally touched the ball before taking her putting stroke etc. Then her husband had the hide to accuse the other member of the foursome of cheating when he clearly wasn't & THEN his wife got back to the clubhouse & started ranting about how she was recently beating 12 markers when she was off 24... I wonder why!

[lucky]

Blake your example is a good one, because the other pro immediately called him and also reported (outed) him, which is the correct action.

Lucky, why don't you tell us what your action has been, intead of getting defensive when we suggest you should have reported him immediately?
I am hardly being defensive, just interesting people making judgement calls without all the facts.

For the record: As the 1st post said a few remarks were made by me to the player about the indescretion. I spoke to a comittee member about the incident after the round who advised me to put it in writing, which I am yet to do.

My topic was intended to see if players from other clubs feel that competitions are more of a social game, not really anaylse the breaking of a rule and the subesquent course of action.

[GolfBallWhackerGuy]

I may be wrong but isnt it proper procedure to place a tee into the grass right behind the ball (similar to marking ball on the green with a coin/marker) if required to pick the ball up to identify it?

[3oneday]

Yep, ball must be marked if taking a preferred lie.

[henno]

Yep, ball must be marked if taking a preferred lie.

:razz:

[markTHEblake]

Lucky, I have seen this begin to happen in the mid week comp at Emerald Lakes some time ago. It would seem that a culture had grown to allow 'gimmes' and probably we are talking 6" putts if you like so rather insignificant in respect of score improvement (but hey i missed a 1" putt at the ozgolf champs) and I dont recall seeing anyone being rather generous with any gimme, so it wasnt if it was every holes perhaps a handful for the group for a round I suppose.

One time a bloke threw my ball back at me when it was a few inches away. As they were all walking off the green, i took the flag out and completed my putt, amidst comments of "dont worry about it" but i wasn't going to be a part of that. Funny that i didnt get sledged about doing that - especially considering I am not exactly immune from being sledged! I guess I made a point.

It wasnt really long after that a club newsletter made it clear that such rule breaches have become common and wont be tolerated ever, and I never saw this happen again.

I never told anyone about this officially - might have mentioned it in passing though, that I cant remember. This is the perfect example of such a situation that is difficult to report as a breach of the rules, because the one that did the reporting is going to come out of the situation the worst, particularly as the golfers doing it are a combination of one of more of low markers, big drinkers and loud mouths. All of them lovely blokes on their own but as a group they are worse than women.

[Sydney Hacker]

Yep, ball must be marked if taking a preferred lie.

You sure about that ?

[markTHEblake]

You sure about that ?

There is a reason the actual rule is referred to is 'mark, lift and place' or something very much like that.:wink:

[Grunt]

Is one of the most breached rules in golf that I see. The non marking of preferred lies and also the replacing when it rolls off the tuft of grass that the person has preferred it too.

[Sydney Hacker]

There is a reason the actual rule is referred to is 'mark, lift and place' or something very much like that.:wink:

I am far to lazy to look it up for myself so I may (and most probably am) be wrong. But they way it was explained to me was "it is recommended that clubs enforce marking the ball" but it is not compulsory.

Different clubs I have played at down here have different local rules, basically one club you have to mark it and the other club says you don't have too.

I know that you can not have a local rule which contradicts a rule of golf and that is why I asked the question.

[lucky]

Lucky, I have seen this begin to happen in the mid week comp at Emerald Lakes some time ago. It would seem that a culture had grown to allow 'gimmes' and probably we are talking 6" putts if you like so rather insignificant in respect of score improvement (but hey i missed a 1" putt at the ozgolf champs) and I dont recall seeing anyone being rather generous with any gimme, so it wasnt if it was every holes perhaps a handful for the group for a round I suppose.

One time a bloke threw my ball back at me when it was a few inches away. As they were all walking off the green, i took the flag out and completed my putt, amidst comments of "dont worry about it" but i wasn't going to be a part of that. Funny that i didnt get sledged about doing that - especially considering I am not exactly immune from being sledged! I guess I made a point.

It wasnt really long after that a club newsletter made it clear that such rule breaches have become common and wont be tolerated ever, and I never saw this happen again.

I never told anyone about this officially - might have mentioned it in passing though, that I cant remember. This is the perfect example of such a situation that is difficult to report as a breach of the rules, because the one that did the reporting is going to come out of the situation the worst, particularly as the golfers doing it are a combination of one of more of low markers, big drinkers and loud mouths. All of them lovely blokes on their own but as a group they are worse than women.

A few points to make:
1. This is why every game I have had with OzGolfers is great, everyone seems to be more aware of the rules and plays in the spirit of the game - fun but serious at the same time.
2. When reporting a breach it seems you are dammed if you do dammed if you don't
3. Always interesting when Club/Matchplay Champs come around there is a whole different feel around the course and it is more like a real comp.
4. Maybe it is just in my eyes that our club comps are glorified social games, good to see most other clubs everyone plays by the rules.:)

[Johnny Canuck]

I am far to lazy to look it up for myself so I may (and most probably am) be wrong. But they way it was explained to me was "it is recommended that clubs enforce marking the ball" but it is not compulsory.

Different clubs I have played at down here have different local rules, basically one club you have to mark it and the other club says you don't have too.

I know that you can not have a local rule which contradicts a rule of golf and that is why I asked the question.

Think about taking relief from damage on a green. You must mark before doing so.

The fairway is no different.

Any time you are picking up the ball, it must be marked.

[3oneday]

Different clubs I have played at down here have different local rules, basically one club you have to mark it and the other club says you don't have too..
I won't look it up but I remember when the "rule change" came in regarding preferred lie. I assumed it was changed, or maybe he correct way to do it was simply being policed.

Makes sense to me to mark, although I doubt I'd quibble over a cm or two.

[AndyP]

Makes sense to me to mark, although I doubt I'd quibble over a cm or two.
Cheat!

[3oneday]

Cheat!
sorry, I'm not familiar with 15 cm ;)

[Sydney Hacker]

I won't look it up but I remember when the "rule change" came in regarding preferred lie. I assumed it was changed, or maybe he correct way to do it was simply being policed.

Makes sense to me to mark, although I doubt I'd quibble over a cm or two.

I remember when the rule was changed also and they brought in that you had to mark the ball.

Then a year or so later people at Gordon were saying that you no longer had to mark the ball. I don't normally just take peoples word for it and make a habit of marking my ball anyway so I can give it a quick clean.

I really should pull out the rule book and have a look at some stage...

[razaar]

If a player fails to mark his ball's position under the "preferred lies" local rule and or fails to place it on a spot specified by the local rule & the rules of golf, then he/she incurs a penalty of one stroke. The ball can only be replaced once. Refer page 132/3 of the Rules of Golf 2008 - 2011.

[3oneday]

of the Rules of Golf 1908 - 1911.

Just grab one outa the cupboard Raz ?


;)

[razaar]

Nah, got sick of reading about it and happened to have a rule book nearby.

[markTHEblake]

Are the sample local rules in the appendix the ones that must be used, or the ones that are recommended?

I think its the latter. Clubs should use the the local rules from the rule book and not make up their own. Some do that, or simply dont make it clear enough and thats why we see the variances to the application of preferred lies.

Question: from the speciman local rule for preferred lies.

Does the "closely mown area" include the putting green?

[pom]

Which rule number is this, Pom?
cheers
just

Sorry it took so long but the rule is not in my 04-05 decisions book. But asked the right person & the answer came back:-)
Rule no is 33-7/9 & is a fairly new rule.

[just]

Thanks Pom, I'll look it up.

[henno]

Sorry it took so long but the rule is not in my 04-05 decisions book. But asked the right person & the answer came back:-)

I think this particular phrase in that ruling is important:


...if it becomes apparent that he has failed to advise the player, his marker or the Committee of a Rules breach with the clear intention of allowing that player to return an incorrect score.

[matty]

Can't say I have noticed any 'gimmes' or things like that. I have noticed a few older blokes taking massive preferred lies and while I should pull them up about it I just don't care when they are 60 plus years old playing off 25 or 30 plus and in a different grade. They are only cheating themselves and in the end they know it.'

I usually book in with whoever in the comp and it's usually the guys who constantly play together that are the worst. I find the better golfers are sticklers for the rules and have never seen any cheating although it's obvious from this thread it happens at all levels.

[LarryLong]

I don't really understand the mentality of cheating in a bid to win three balls and a Callaway hat. I've never cared enough about the outcome of any sport that I've been involved in to make cheating worthwhile, and I can't really understand why anybody does.

I also don't understand the attitude of the rules police coming down hard on Lucky for not taking it upon himself to blow the whistle. I wouldn't bother doing it myself if I was in his shoes. Life's too short to waste your energy on things that don't matter.

Maybe we just need less comp golf?

[pom]

I think this particular phrase in that ruling is important:
Surely , if you do not report the breach your intent is to let him submit an incorrect card. The difficult side of this rule would really be that if you said nothing to the player or marker it would be difficult to prove that you identified the breach.If I was a witness to the example in the initial post I would find it difficult not to report itIf I saw someone accidently move his ball a couple of MM i would probably ignore it.
It all depends on the intent & that can be difficult to prove I agree.

[Minor_Threat]

With respect, you do not have all the details as to how I have handled it so not really fair for you to make that call.


For the record: As the 1st post said a few remarks were made by me to the player about the indescretion. I spoke to a comittee member about the incident after the round who advised me to put it in writing, which I am yet to do.

This is what I suspected and was alluding to. It appears to have been a few days at least since it occured and you have not submitted an incident report to the committee.

[Scottt]

And the longer it takes for that report to materialise, the less force it will carry.

[ParMaster]

Quick rules question.

Instead of marking my ball with a marker or similar object, am I allowed to place the toe of my putter where the ball is, pick it up, and then place it back down where the putter head is?

[Grunt]

So long as it does not move I do believe you can. But if it moves you are in a bit of trouble.

[jdbutler7]

Lucky in answer to your original question I think it does occur at other clubs as I recently played a few "out of town" games and some of the locals were giving each other gimmes and picking their ball up to "identify" it but they did put it back in the same position (without marking though).

I agree with other posters that once you get comfortable in a regular group some rules (honor, playing out of turn) become non existent and comp. rounds tend to feel a bit social.