What is the difference between flighted and non-flighted shafts?

[bushcam]

Sorry if this seems a stupid question, but I keep seeing shafts listed as flighted or non-flighted.
Can anyone tell me what flighting is? Is it worth paying the extra dollars for?

[3oneday]

Have a look at the titleist website, it describes them well:

Project X Flighted is a heavy, descending weight shaft. The mid flex point launches higher with more spin than regular Project X. Provides a different feel than constant weight shafts.

Project X is a mid/heavy constant weight stepless shaft. The shorter tip section and longer taper rate create a stable, but not overly stiff tip. Offers good feel with a tight dispersion pattern.

[bushcam]

Thanks for that.

It would appear that for me then, the standard shaft would be best. I'm just trying to get my shots to stay on the fairway. I'm not up to shaping my shots too much at the moment.

[Topper4000]

Both are day and night in feel.
Standard PX are planks
Flighted feel 1/2 flex softer. Than standard.

[Oldplayer]

Basically the tip sections in the flighted set get softer in the long irons. This is to help produce a higher tradectory in the 2,3 and 4 irons. By the time you get to the 5 iron the tip section in the flighted and non-flighted shafts are the same.

[razaar]

Has anybody tested the frequencies in these shafts, uncut and the same stiffness grade? That should tell the story...ball trajectory is all about where the hands are at impact.

[Hux]

Has anybody tested the frequencies in these shafts, uncut and the same stiffness grade? That should tell the story...ball trajectory is all about where the hands are at impact.

Surely that is much to simplified to say that trajectory is all about where the hands are at impact - there is a mechanical side to it as well as the human input side. Loft, flex points and the spin rates of club face (eg loft, milled faces, low CG types) and ball type all have varying degrees of input I would imagine. That is my mechanical mind looking at it anyway.

The flighted has a moving flex point matched to the intended loft of the club same as the Ping AWT (Ascending Weight Technology). The relative shaft stiffness doesn't change but the flex point does - that has to change the trajectory surely?

Personally I don't find the normal PX that boardy...horses for courses.

[TheNuclearOne]

Has anybody tested the frequencies in these shafts, uncut and the same stiffness grade? That should tell the story...ball trajectory is all about where the hands are at impact.

Frequency telling the story went out years ago. There are so many variables beside this it's no longer an accurate measure in many cases.

[razaar]

It is the tilt of the shaft at impact that determines trajectory Hux. It is that simple.

[razaar]

Frequency telling the story went out years ago. There are so many variables beside this it's no longer an accurate measure in many cases.
Vibrations of the shaft are what you feel and a frequency machine is the only way I know to calibrate vibrations. Also you only feel the vibrations after the ball has left the clubface.

[PeteyD]

I'm picking up good vibrations.

[TheNuclearOne]

Vibrations of the shaft are what you feel and a frequency machine is the only way I know to calibrate vibrations. Also you only feel the vibrations after the ball has left the clubface.

What's that got to do with trajectory, loading characteristics and spin? Feel is just one part of the equation.

[razaar]

Did I associate trajectory with shaft vibrations?

[TheNuclearOne]

Did I associate trajectory with shaft vibrations?

Sorry, i mistakingly thought you were actually attempting to contribute per topic.

bushcam - if you go for the standard projects be very aware that they play substancially stiff to flex for most.

Don't forget about the KBS either, depending on budget. The FST's are also popular around here at a superb price.

[razaar]

Sorry, i mistakingly thought you were actually attempting to contribute per topic.

bushcam - if you go for the standard projects be very aware that they play substancially stiff to flex for most.

Don't forget about the KBS either, depending on budget. The FST's are also popular around here at a superb price.
The point I was making is feel is one way to differentiate between the shafts. Swinging without a ball won't tell us much; but hitting a ball will. The thing you feel is the vibrations and if the shafts differ in their vibration frequencies then you may get a difference in feel. The shaft for me is the one that gives me the vibration feedback that I like. Anything else to do with shaft flex etc. is really something that I have no interest in because its the swing tempo and timing that squares the clubhead to where I want it. Hey but that's me.

[3oneday]

Gee, now why did these companies spend all their dosh on making different shafts, what a waste !

[razaar]

Gee, now why did these companies spend all their dosh on making different shafts, what a waste !
I guess because we are all different.

:wink:

[bushcam]

Thanks for the respones everybody. I'm not really looking to buy shafts at the moment, but really just trying to understand the terminology and the different options that are available.

[goonie]

Has anybody tested the frequencies in these shafts, uncut and the same stiffness grade? That should tell the story...ball trajectory is all about where the hands are at impact.

Sorry Raz but the hand position isn't the only factor, maybe the major factor but not the only one.

[Daves]

How much difference does soft stepping shafts make?.

[Oldplayer]

How much difference does soft stepping shafts make?.
About 5cpm per soft step I think.

[Daves]

About 5cpm per soft step I think.

Thanks for that. Am I right to say 10cpms is the approximate difference between flex ratings i.e. R to S, S to X etc

[Oldplayer]

Thanks for that. Am I right to say 10cpms is the approximate difference between flex ratings i.e. R to S, S to X etc
Not sure about that one. I had some KBS stiff softstepped twice (that's where I remember the cpm difference from). So I guess 10cpm difference. The club builder told me that doing that modified the flex to "firm"; implying they were between stiff and reg. They still played fairly stiff and didn't feel like reg flex.

[razaar]

Sorry Raz but the hand position isn't the only factor, maybe the major factor but not the only one.
Don't be sorry.:) If you are thinking of anything else when trying to fit a trajectory to a shot I would like to hear it...always open to new ideas & concepts.

[goonie]

Don't be sorry.:) If you are thinking of anything else when trying to fit a trajectory to a shot I would like to hear it...always open to new ideas & concepts.

I'm not sorry :-), I said hand position is the main factor in trajectory but the following "new ideas and concepts", head design, shaft kick point, spin rate and swing speed are also factors.

[3oneday]

He has to go and check with the Kings horses before replying ;)

[Hux]

Raz is being literal or would that be litterol. Anyway for exactly the same hand position as both Goonie and I have said other factors can affect ball trajectory. They have to, as it is the basic engineering principles or principals perhaps :-) that are employed by the designers to give different trajectories.

If the basic tennants of a golf swing is a mechanically repeatable motion then the way we would alter trajectory would be through equipment. Modifying our mechanically repeatable swing through a one off technique eg a knockdown shot alters trajectory but IMHO a player can more readily change ball flight by altering equipment than by trying to change their swing.

So Raz disagree? or perhaps you can explain why different equipment will give different trajectories in the hands of one player emplying exactly the same swing :-)

[razaar]

Raz is being literal or would that be litterol. Anyway for exactly the same hand position as both Goonie and I have said other factors can affect ball trajectory. They have to, as it is the basic engineering principles or principals perhaps :-) that are employed by the designers to give different trajectories.

If the basic tennants of a golf swing is a mechanically repeatable motion then the way we would alter trajectory would be through equipment. Modifying our mechanically repeatable swing through a one off technique eg a knockdown shot alters trajectory but IMHO a player can more readily change ball flight by altering equipment than by trying to change their swing.

So Raz disagree? or perhaps you can explain why different equipment will give different trajectories in the hands of one player emplying exactly the same swing :-)

Well Huxtible, there could be lots of reasons why ordinary golfers have differing trajectories with various equipment. For a start, ordinary golfers rarely perform the same swing, if they did they would be advanced golfers. Advanced golfers can control the flight patern of their shots by swing technique not by the characteristics of the club.

That said shaft flex can vary trajectory. A normal right handed golf swing has three levers - the left arm/shoulder joint, the wrists, and the shaft. Before the collision of clubface and ball the clubhead is or should be slightly in advance of the shaft. Where the clubhead is before contact will have some effect on how the ball pushes itself off the clubface, as will clubhead speed and where the collision has occured on the clubface. A flexible shaft with a high swing speed will have the clubhead well in advance of the shaft before impact which will result in a higher trajectory with a ball that will go left. The energy of motion of the clubhead compresses the ball and for an instance in time they form a single mass. It stands to reason that where the clubhead is at this instant and where the ball is struck on the clubface will determine direction, ball speed and spin.
The point I am trying to make is that the shaft is a lever which is dependent on the other two levers.

[markTHEblake]

So Raz disagree? or perhaps you can explain why different equipment will give different trajectories in the hands of one player emplying exactly the same swing :-)

not to mention the CG on the clubface has a pretty significant impact on trajectory as well! but i guess thats off topic here?

[3oneday]

blah blah blah etcetcetc

Raz, can I ask a question ?

What is your final swing thought ? I'm just amazed that you can even take it away with everything that goes through your head ??? :confused:

[razaar]

Raz, can I ask a question ?

What is your final swing thought ? I'm just amazed that you can even take it away with everything that goes through your head ??? :confused:
Only think of one thing when I swing...the rest is stuff I have picked up about the swing, being a keen student of the game. Understanding what occurs frees me up to concentrate on the one or two things that are relevant to my swing.

[goonie]

being a keen student of the game.

Sounds like you may need to do a bit of a revision on the equipment side of the game Raz :-)

[razaar]

Maybe, but I can't see what good it would do me, because I would only be reading marketing propaganda.

[markTHEblake]

Maybe, but I can't see what good it would do me, because I would only be reading marketing propaganda.


The physics of golf equipment havent changed though Raz!

though as you said the propaganda certainly has.

are you familiar with Tutelmans website? he has the sort of stuff that would have you salivating more than a batchelor home alone on the internet.

[goonie]

Maybe, but I can't see what good it would do me, because I would only be reading marketing propaganda.

I'm so glad your open to new ideas and concepts.

[razaar]

I have looked at it blakey and it is about the best site on the subject on the Net. Spending most of my spare time at Chris McCourt's workshop when he was working from his parent's home (around the corner from my place) gave me a good basic knowledge of clubfitting etc.. Enough to realise that it is the craftsman and not the tools where most faults lie.

[razaar]

I'm so glad your open to new ideas and concepts.
Tell me Lee...to my mind you have possibly owned and gamed as many sets of clubs in a relatively short space of time as anybody in SE Qld. What have you learned from playing such a variety of clubs and has it improved your golf swing and golf game?

[goonie]

Tell me Lee...to my mind you have possibly owned and gamed as many sets of clubs in a relatively short space of time as anybody in SE Qld. What have you learned from playing such a variety of clubs and has it improved your golf swing and golf game?

For a start I haven't even come close to have gaming as many sets as a lot of people in SE QLD, and I have learned a lot, but I will have to expand on that later as I have Xmas shopping and have to pick up some stuff for my new baby boy.

[markTHEblake]

but I will have to expand on that later as I have Xmas shopping and have to pick up some stuff for my new baby boy.

Bit young for new clubs isnt he? but i guess its reasonable enough to try em out for him first.

At least you can get explain away that one to the missus, "nothing but the best for my boy"

[TheNuclearOne]

Maybe, but I can't see what good it would do me, because I would only be reading marketing propaganda.

Could you explain this post of yours Raz


Pup there is a much easier way to gain 15 extra metres without going to a 48" shaft. Remove the grip off your Titty driver and put a 20 gram weight in the butt end of the shaft and re-install the grip. You won't notice the extra weight because it is in your hands. What it does is to put extra load on the shaft during the transition from backswing to forward swing making the shaft flex a liitle more resulting in an increase in clubhead speed through impact.

Could you explain this post of yours a bit Raz. I'm fairly well versed in the benefits of counter weighting but bolding claiming 15 meters, well. Some don't gain anything while others get noticable gains, but 15 meters? :smt108

I'm particularly interested in how the 20 gram weight at the top of the grip end (the opposite end of what will genuinely affect flex) can possibly load the shaft and flex it more ;)

And for those that do know the true intricasies of counter weighting please let Raz field this one first.

[davepuppies]

So after reading all that - after some opinions.

Getting my irons reshafted this week with either s300 or x100 shafts, should i seek some flighted shafts in the longer irons?

I played off 2 12 years agao and made a comeback 6 weeks ago. Ball striking still inconsistant but will come back with time.

I used to hit a very high ball - driver clubspeed currently 110-120mph (again inconsistant)

[razaar]

Sure John.

1. Why is it that the latest release from equipment companies is always better than its predecessor? Companies put lots of dollars into scientific research (so we are led to believe) yet most new releases across a range of companies have very similar design modifications. I choose have an open mind about what may be fact or fiction and don't take for granted the spin doctor talk.

2. The weight in the grip concept has been around for decades. Jack Nicholas used lead tape under his driver grip throughout his professional career, so I have been told. I was introduced to it by Chris McCourt when he was experimenting with various weights in the butt of the driver. We experimented with weights ranging from 40 grams to 20 grams and tested the outcomes on the launch monitor. 40 grams was the most weight that didn't seem to affect the swing, while 20 grams was the minimum weight that produced a noticeable increase in clubhead speed and a reasonable shot disbursement. In my case anything over 20 grams gave me real problems squaring the face. The driver I used it in was a KZG PFT300 and it did give me an additional 15 metres on average. I am not sure how counter weighting would go with golfers who don't have a tight coil and who don't employ sequencing in their swing. I didn't notice anything different except the shaft give a bit more through contact, more of a softer feel.

[TheNuclearOne]

Sure John.

1. Why is it that the latest release from equipment companies is always better than its predecessor? Companies put lots of dollars into scientific research (so we are led to believe) yet most new releases across a range of companies have very similar design modifications. I choose have an open mind about what may be fact or fiction and don't take for granted the spin doctor talk.

2. The weight in the grip concept has been around for decades. Jack Nicholas used lead tape under his driver grip throughout his professional career, so I have been told. I was introduced to it by Chris McCourt when he was experimenting with various weights in the butt of the driver. We experimented with weights ranging from 40 grams to 20 grams and tested the outcomes on the launch monitor. 40 grams was the most weight that didn't seem to affect the swing, while 20 grams was the minimum weight that produced a noticeable increase in clubhead speed and a reasonable shot disbursement. In my case anything over 20 grams gave me real problems squaring the face. The driver I used it in was a KZG PFT300 and it did give me an additional 15 metres on average. I am not sure how counter weighting would go with golfers who don't have a tight coil and who don't employ sequencing in their swing. I didn't notice anything different except the shaft give a bit more through contact, more of a softer feel.

1. Never said anything at all about equipment and such but you probably addressed my bold which is fair enough.

2. You haven't explained how this 20 grams under the grip makes the shaft flex more? I know some find a moderate but measurable increase in SS but you state the 20 gram weight makes the shaft flex more?

3. Commendation for experimenting with counter weights and finding what worked for you. You're theory is a bit off but you did fit yourself first hand and found what works.

The theory is counter balancing helps the player to drop the club into the "slot" early and more repeatedly in the swing. For many , this helps in a later release and a more consistent swing, including better center contact and often 2-4mph of ball speed.

I should have trialed all this out personally by now and probably will early next year. The latest big thing here is weights like the "Optivibe" which allows the weight to be put further down the shaft which has shown other benefits. In player testing it has been shown to lessen the bend of a severe right to left pattern but has not had the same effect on slices.

[Yossarian]

Slight threadjack but gheyest avatar ever TNO!

[razaar]

If I remember correctly Chris put it down to moving the balance point of the club more towards the hands and lightening the feel of the clubhead without changing the weight of the clubhead. This makes it easier for some players to keep the clubhead on plane, which is what you mentioned about the slot. I should add that some players (pros) didn't like it at all and I haven't continued with it. Although I hit that driver at Federal GC in June (my son has it) and I wondered why I ever gave it away.

[TheNuclearOne]

So after reading all that - after some opinions.

Getting my irons reshafted this week with either s300 or x100 shafts, should i seek some flighted shafts in the longer irons?

I played off 2 12 years agao and made a comeback 6 weeks ago. Ball striking still inconsistant but will come back with time.

I used to hit a very high ball - driver clubspeed currently 110-120mph (again inconsistant)

Can't see a golfer with your previous pedigree needing to worry about flighted unless you've dropped dramatically physically.

[TheNuclearOne]

Slight threadjack but gheyest avatar ever TNO!


Maybe you don't know the scene ;)

[TheNuclearOne]

If I remember correctly Chris put it down to moving the balance point of the club more towards the hands and lightening the feel of the clubhead without changing the weight of the clubhead. This makes it easier for some players to keep the clubhead on plane, which is what you mentioned about the slot. I should add that some players (pros) didn't like it at all and I haven't continued with it. Although I hit that driver at Federal GC in June (my son has it) and I wondered why I ever gave it away.

The 20 gram weight adjacent to your left hand will not load the shaft more. No chance. How could it? Getting the club in the slot and releasing later is what gives some the 2-4mph. 2-4mph won't load the shaft that much more either. This technology does work for many tho, sometimes almost dramatically.

The mate is getting married and looks like i will be down around May 1'ish. Hopefully i might be able to get a game with a couple of you peeps.

[TheNuclearOne]

How did you go with the avatar Yoss?

[TheNuclearOne]

4782

4783

[3oneday]

Although I hit that driver at Federal GC in June (my son has it) and I wondered why I ever gave it away.

Ho !

[Yossarian]

I know it is American Psycho. Or were you trying to call me a chopper with that axe pic?? ;)

[TheNuclearOne]

Ho !

Technology was still legitimately improving in those days and spin doctors were rare!

[TheNuclearOne]

I know it is American Psycho. Or were you trying to call me a chopper with that axe pic?? ;)

You've got a complex ;)

And i reckon you cheated 8-)

[TheNuclearOne]

A minor spiel from TM

http://www.golfweek.com/news/2009/dec/17/quest-perfect-set-clubs/

The quest for the perfect set of clubs

Charles McLendon runs the TaylorMade Performance Lab at Reynolds Plantation, where he fits golfers with clubs from all major manufacturers.

“Just about every golfer I know, from the best players to average players, can benefit from a good club-fitting session,” said McLendon, who attempted to make it as a touring pro and later returned to his first love – clubmaking.

“My first job, when I was in high school, I apprenticed under Bill Feather, a clubmaker in Conyers, Ga. Then I helped open the Golfsmith store in Atlanta. I’ve always been interested in fitting people with the right clubs.”

McLendon, 29, has many observations about modern golf clubs:

What is the hardest part about fitting someone for clubs?

Good communication. You have to have the ability to get information out of the client. Some golfers don’t open up very easily. Fitting can be a complicated thing, but communication is the key.

How physically gifted are humans in making a golf swing?

Humans are amazing. All the time, I see golfers making these amazing movements in their swings to compensate for the equipment they are using.

So most golfers are using clubs that don’t fit?

That’s right. Many players simply don’t have access to all the information (about equipment) that’s available. Today, we have the ability to fine-tune golf clubs for everyone. We can test and measure the performance of every golfer until we find exactly what equipment works best.

Do most golfers use shafts that are too stiff?

Macho is a disease to be treated carefully. Some men use shafts that are way too stiff, but the key is finding the right way to change their minds. Once again, we’re talking about communication here.

Do a lot of golfers have expectations about their clubs that are too high?

It’s still a golf club and not a magic wand. A good fitter has to help his clients be realistic. To help golfers get the most out of their golf clubs, I recommend realistic golf instruction.

Do you see golfers using too little loft on their drivers?

All the time. Most of the time, I have to educate the golfers. It goes back more than 10 years ago, when golf balls had a whole lot of spin and guys were hitting those (Callaway) Big Berthas with lofts of 8, 7 or 6 degrees. Now the balls are firmer and don’t have nearly as much spin, and those same golfers are hitting these little chest-high bullets, wondering what happened. What happened was that the golf ball changed dramatically.

So it was the modern golf ball that doomed the long iron and made the hybrid so popular?

Absolutely. Golfers didn’t just wake up one morning and find they couldn’t hit their long irons. It was the (low-spinning) golf ball that created the ineffectiveness of the long iron.

What do you see in the future?

With smaller grooves, I see softer golf balls with more spin. That potentially could ignite a comeback for the long iron. I see a more creative game, with players curving the ball like they used to. I think it’s going to bring shotmakers back into the game.

Do you hear a lot of people talking about grooves and wedges?

Every day. Many of my clients are buying multiple sets of wedges (because, for most amateurs, the large grooves can be used until 2024).

Are you a fan of adjustable drivers?

You bet. It has given us a way to quickly and effectively create a driver that is an anti-left club. Many golfers are looking for that, because they want to swing aggressively without the fear of hooking the ball. In general, I am using higher lofts and opening the face angle.

Opening the face angle how much?

Often I will crank it open 2 or 21⁄2 degrees. The ball’s not going left no matter how hard they want to rotate through (the shot) at impact.

With modern hybrids so popular, where does the modern iron set begin?

Most of them start with a 5-iron. Replacements (hybrids) are common for the 4-iron and 3-iron.

If golf balls get softer and spin more, will hybrids remain popular?

Not if golfers start hitting those high poofers.

What is your opinion of fairway woods?

I think it’s the weakest part of the golf marketplace. If the ball does start to spin again, the fairway wood probably will be revived and people will welcome it back. Most golfers need (golf ball) spin in order to get fairway woods up in the air. With today’s balls that don’t spin much, the 3-wood has been turned into a driver off the deck. A 17-degree 4-wood plays like the 3-wood used to play.

How does a golfer go about choosing the right golf ball?

As a fitter and teacher, I am amazed how much golfers base their golf-ball selection on the driver. What they really should pay attention to is 100 yards and in. The driver is not nearly as significant as the shorter clubs in the scoring zone.

Which club gets the least attention?

The putter. It is the most underestimated of all the products that can be fit. We fit people for putters all the time, and it’s a ‘wow’ product. Usually, after we make a putter that complements somebody’s stroke, they really start to appreciate the fitting process.

What is your favorite style of putter?

Mallet putters. For most golfers, a mallet putter will provide more stability and distance control.

Do most people use grips that are the right size for them?

No. Using a grip that’s the wrong size can create tension, and tension in the grip is a terrible thing. I’ve seen plenty of people end up with tendinitis and bursitis because of the way they grip the club.

You recommend larger grips for many golfers, but all of us have heard that big grips can create an inability to square the face. Is this true?

Many players are scared off from trying larger grips, which is a shame. It has not been my experience that big grips cause an open clubface. I think you would have to make gigantic grips for that to happen.

[Grunt]

Is this over yet?


Are any of us here actually good enough that he difference matters?

[razaar]

Good find John.:smt038

[markTHEblake]

The comments about the ball are very interesting, and its past and future affect on long irons, hybrids and fairway woods. I used to play a 1 iron and so did most golfers, and many of the big hitters would 'ski jump' them. Obviously not anymore!



Are any of us here actually good enough that he difference matters?

Didnt you read that Grant - fitting matters for every golfer.

[TheNuclearOne]

Good find John.:smt038

Cheers mate, glad someone appreciated it :smt023

[macjackass]

Very interesting. Being back the avatar with the bird on the wing!!!!! Best ever :)

[3oneday]

Are any of us here actually good enough that he difference matters?


Didnt you read that Grant - fitting matters for every golfer.

This thread Grunt ;) http://www.ozgolf.net/forums/showthread.php?t=16760 feel free to add your 2 cents :lol:

[TheNuclearOne]

Very interesting. Being back the avatar with the bird on the wing!!!!! Best ever :)

Cheers mate! How did that FW end up going? I'm going to change av's every couple of days for a while. Unfortunately i can't use most of the ones i use on another site.

[macjackass]

Picking it up from Virge tomorrow. Putting a fuji pro 95 in it. I had a 3 wood of the same head when they came out. Should be good. Where did you get the avatar?

[TheNuclearOne]

Sorry, i meant the Cleve (7 i think) i sold ya aaaaaages ago. The duck on a wing came from a boxing site (weird pic/etc thread) i frequent. Like here, quite a bit of their finest banter is off topic.