Shafts and custom fitting

[3oneday]

Loaded question and looking forward to a debate 8)...

Went to the range this morning with a Tour Preferred with KBS Tour Stiff and an X22 Tour PX Flighted 5.5.

Only took 7 iron but both flew exactly the same, same distance, same flight.

Both clubs are off the shelf, not bent in any way. I felt the TP was marginally flatter at address. I am these days a firm believer that custom fitting is a wank, as is peoples claims that they can reallly really tell the difference between two shafts if they are basically the same flex !

Pick it up, and if it goes well use it, if it doesn't, ditch it !

I'm almost off 8 these days, never got any lower than 4 and have been playing for almost 30 years. So why can everyone else tell these subtle differences and I can't ?

[goonie]

As far as feel goes for me I think it is more in the head than the shaft, weight and spin are more of a factor in shafts for me, I can get pretty scrappy by the end of a round with heavy shafts and if I'm having a bad day. I tried DGSL but they were to light and I started spraying them, then I tried PX 5.5 but they didn't spin enough and lost distance in the long irons and 1/2 & 3/4 shots. And I have now settled on the KBS, mid weight shaft in stiff and more spin than PX and DG.

Both the clubs you have have a similar feel and the shafts are about the same weight so the only thing I would notice would be spin, but not so much in a 7 iron hitting full shots.

Are you a high/mid/low spin player with irons?

[pt73]

Same argument about spining shafts, I can't feel any difference between clubs with spined and non-spined shafts.

The only thing I check on my irons are the lofts.

[3oneday]

Same argument about spining shafts, I can't feel any difference between spined and non-spined shafts.

that's the stuff I mean, seriously are we good enough to get performance out of all these gimmicks ? Performance that will actually improve our scores ???

[Courty]

My wedges are spined and they spin like crazy out of wet rough. ;)

[Deano]

I'm not into "spined and non-spined" shafts, but for me custom fitting is simply peace of mind - one less thing to blame. I hit a sh#t shot now I KNOW it's me, not the club.

[kwantfm]

KBS Tour and PX probably aren't that different. Massive difference between PX and say Nippon. Just go with what feels right. Lofts and lies are important in my opinion (although how you measure lie is another debate altogether).

[Tomson]

I know nothing about this and therefore will keep silent.. or protest in silence... 8)

[goonie]

KBS Tour and PX probably aren't that different. Massive difference between PX and say Nippon. Just go with what feels right. Lofts and lies are important in my opinion (although how you measure lie is another debate altogether).

They may have a similar flight but the spin is quite different.

[3oneday]

Define spin ?

Exact same ball flight with a 7 iron, are you saying then that the shafts are the same in the 7 iron but will spin more in longer irons ?

What is spin ?

[pt73]

What PR & advertising agencies dream up to make golfers buy the latest equipment.

[markTHEblake]

. So why can everyone else tell these subtle differences and I can't ?

I cant, but I still wont use anything off the shelf regardless.

My pro mate doesn't believe in custom fitting. He just grabs 20 drivers out of the reps collection and hits all of them until he finds what he likes.

As Icant do that, and I have to buy my clubs, the smart way is to get a perfect fit and quality control first time.

[zigwah]

the 2 i tried side by side were px 6.0 and kbs stiff softstepped and they were night and day, maye because there was too much difference in flex?

I also found that the reg and stiff kbs felt the same to hit but had different ballflights

the px and kbs couldn't have been more different, dramatically different ballflight, totally different feel. not sure this was a fair test though.

[3oneday]

The smart way is to get a perfect fit and quality control first time.
Sp what happens if you go there and your swing is slightly off, but you didn't realise ?

maye because there was too much difference in flex?.
probably.

I've played 2 degrees flat, 1 flat, standard (obviously) and noticed no difference in performance or ball striking.

I've played x stiff dygolds, x1 in the Tour Concepts, Dynalite Regs with 3 parts of **** all difference.

I'm not on a crusade here, but I seriously think there is too much spin getting swallowed !

[virge666]

Sp what happens if you go there and your swing is slightly off, but you didn't realise ?

I've played 2 degrees flat, 1 flat, standard (obviously) and noticed no difference in performance or ball striking.

I've played x stiff dygolds, x1 in the Tour Concepts, Dynalite Regs with 3 parts of **** all difference.

I'm not on a crusade here, but I seriously think there is too much spin getting swallowed !

Fitting is a science... we can prove it works and a player of your calibre would be able to settle down and play the game. But, you change clubs more than your underwear, you have no standard clubs to come back to. If you want some some stability - settle it down.

Your not a good enough ball striker to tell 2 degrees of lie difference. But you may as well get the lie angle right... it cant hurt, can it ? Same with spining... it cant hurt and costs $60 delivered - Why wouldn't you ?

You should be able to feel the difference between a NSPro 90 and a Project X. If you can't - then you just aren't good enough too, get better - but then you can always ask someone who does this for a living and they can help you out.

After all - it's free at Demo days... and it can't hurt, can it ?

[zigwah]

px all the flex's i have hit are completely different feel to any other shaft i have hit.

Might be just me but i hate them, they just feel dead to me, and i have not felt anything that even feels remotely the same.

I think r300's are a good shaft, and if the kbs hadn't have worked out i would have gone them next, gold ol DG

[henno]

I cold top stiffer shafts way better that reg flexes. Shanks have a lower ballflight and less spin as well.

[markTHEblake]

Sp what happens if you go there and your swing is slightly off, but you didn't realise ?

From speaking to the experts about this, the differences between a good day and a bad day (swinging) is neglible, so slightly off is even less negligible.

[3oneday]

you change clubs more than your underwear, you have no standard clubs to come back to.

tis true, how long does this relationship take ?


You should be able to feel the difference between a NSPro 90 and a Project X. If you can't - then you just aren't good enough too, get better

not my comparison that one


Your not a good enough ball striker to tell 2 degrees of lie difference. But you may as well get the lie angle right... it cant hurt, can it ? Same with spining... it cant hurt and costs $60 delivered - Why wouldn't you ?
If i've played off single figures for 25 years and I can't tell the difference, why should anyone bother ?

[razaar]

Sp what happens if you go there and your swing is slightly off, but you didn't realise ?

probably.

I've played 2 degrees flat, 1 flat, standard (obviously) and noticed no difference in performance or ball striking.

I've played x stiff dygolds, x1 in the Tour Concepts, Dynalite Regs with 3 parts of **** all difference.

I'm not on a crusade here, but I seriously think there is too much spin getting swallowed !
Shameless attempt to convince yourself and others that ho'ing is not harmful to good golf. Brush up on the science of the sport as it relates to swing and equipment, not the bullshit that comes from people selling ideas, swing theories etc.

[3oneday]

I know ho'ing is harmful to good golf, can't see where I said that grasshopper.

So now that is out of the road, what's your handicap ?

[zigwah]

bout time i got to get the popcorn :)

[rick3003]

Just buy some 32's. You are a good enough ball striker ;)

[TheNuclearOne]

Bloody chopper

:razz:

[goonie]

Define spin ?

Exact same ball flight with a 7 iron, are you saying then that the shafts are the same in the 7 iron but will spin more in longer irons ?

What is spin ?

You are using different club heads remember, plus the PX flighted probably play like the KBS (I was thinking standard PX earlier). One way to check is to find a fitter with a LM like a trackman, if they have a Titty or TM fitting cart you can try the same head with KBS, DG, PX etc and see the flight and spin and compare it on the LM, you can also compare your TP's or X-22's to the Demo club with the same shaft to compare the clubhead spin difference. then once you find something you like stick with it for a while.

I had no problem with the short and mid irons with the STD PX because the spin difference will have less affect because these clubs will produce enough spin due to loft, but i did not get enough spin in longer irons and it affect distance because I wasn't getting enough spin to stay in the air, it's the same reason it's pointless for a player with say a 80mph Driver SS trying to play a 2 iron, they can't hit the club hard enough to get the height and spin needed to travel any further than 2-3 clubs less, if you are a high spin player you may find a higher spin shaft balloons into the wind and you need a lower spin shaft. Adam Scott just switched to the KBS because he is a low spin player, and has done very well since.

"“Adam has always been a low spin player, and long irons and partial-shot short irons sometimes fall out of the air and come up short. This was notably evident after the switch from his previous AP2s to the MBs. Adam likes the classic forged blade looks and increased workability of the MBs, though, so we built him an additional set with KBS Tour shafts to try out following the Presidents Cup.

“While experimenting at home in Australia, he felt that the MBs with the KBS Tour shafts stayed in the air much better and, with the added spin, were easier to work and shape a variety of shots.”

Since making the switch in tournament play at the Barclays Singapore Open, Adam has finished T-3rd, T-6th, T-7th and 1st."
http://www.titleistblog.com/

[razaar]

I know ho'ing is harmful to good golf, can't see where I said that grasshopper.

So now that is out of the road, what's your handicap ?
My eyesight and on occasions reading stupid threads!

[3oneday]

My eyesight and on occasions reading stupid threads!

You forgot to mention "and opinions that don't match mine"

[razaar]

:lol:

[Jarro]

Has this poster been fitted yet ?

:roll:

[3oneday]

Wanker




;)

[TourFit]

=;

Don't even get me started in this thread !!!!

[3oneday]

I would like to get the three of you started.

I believe that, rightly or wrongly, you guys are in the minority.

Look at the golfers at your respective clubs and ask yourself how many of them have been fitted (properly or not) and how many of them are satisfied with their golf games ?

[Captain Nemo]

3 I'm with you!
Did the whole Callaway Fitting at theri Sydney HQ, came out standard everything!
The shaft selection was the biggest thing that made the difference.
Im hitting my irons more consistently than ever now, if only i could sort the R9 out.......

[Jarro]

I really wish you hadn't started this thread Pete, i was seriously considering going for a fitting at the start of the new year :roll:

:smt087

[3oneday]

You'd be a perfect test case then Mark, because you have been golfing for a long time, your handicap is 11 or 12 regularly.

So the question is, what are you hoping to get out of the fitting ? Better ball striking, better ball control, a lower handicap ?

From the 3 custom fitting gurus (and I'm not being derogatory) what should Marks expectations be, assuming he is fitted correctly ?

[Iain]

I would think only if he's a long way from standard would there be a noticeable difference after being fit.

[Jarro]

That's what i was thinking too Iain.

I'm going to do it mainly for the lie angles and getting the lofts checked on the irons.

I'm pretty happy with the shafts and their performance.

[razaar]

Before the three wise men hop in here, not a fair question asking somebody what he expects to get out of it if he doesn't fully know what is involved and what the benefits are of having a set custom fitted to his swing. IMO the benefits are improvements in feel and precision. Feel encompasses shaft flexibility, shaft feel (vibrations), head weight and matching the moments of inertia about the pivot point where the left hand grips the shaft and of course grip size which can affect the actual swing. Precision involves trajectory and uniform distances between each club in the set which includes loft and lie, shaft length and head type. These are just a few of the issues that come immediately to mind.

[TheNuclearOne]

I think 3 just wants to get to the guts of it - does it lower your handicap?

Obviously if you're clubs are WAY off base yes, but a ho like Jarro has been around the block a bit and would have sticks he gets around the course quite ok with, tho unfit.

He'd be a great subject actually.

[Topper4000]

Basicly we are talking about buying a better game, in golf there is no such thing.
I'm completey custom fit from driver to putter, where this helps all my clubs feel great weight wise, right lenght right shafts lofts etc. The main area where this helps is consistancy. My set up is in the area of $5000. worth the money? loaded question.
There is one thing in golf we all want to do get bett right?
I.M.O. The best way to do this is, get the right gear, right coach and pratice/play to your hands bleed.
I've been playing golf now for a little over three years and gone from 27 down to getting into single marker turf. Havn't cracked the under par round yet by it is my next goal.
What are a good set of custom fitted clubs worth I.M.O. maybe 5%. Shafts? maybe 20% of that. Total 1%-2%. Spin? is a byproduct of angle of attack, impact angle and swing speed.
Ball don't spin enough wack it harder 8-b

[markTHEblake]

Look at the golfers at your respective clubs and ask yourself how many of them have been fitted (properly or not)

from the number of people i have asked or just made an educated guess by looking at the clubs they use, the percentage is probably 0.02%


and how many of them are satisfied with their golf games ?If they dont know the concept of being fitted, they dont understand the value of doing so. Until I got fitted I thought that i needed to learn to hit the ball better before it was worth getting new clubs.

When I was a kid, there was always the belief that it took quite sometime to get used to a new set of clubs. What that really meant was adapting from one poorly suited set to another.

My experience in getting fitted with a new set of irons (twice) is that they were so easy to hit the first time, and thats how it should be.

[henno]

All of that is of course assuming you have a repeatable swing.

[markTHEblake]

All of that is of course assuming you have a repeatable swing.

No. When I say easy to hit, i mean its all relative. new clubs cant turn Henno into Elkington.

[henno]

I didn't say that either. But without a repeatable swing (ugly or otherwise) how is fitting for flat, upright, short or long going to help if every other swing is different?

[markTHEblake]

I didn't say that either. But without a repeatable swing (ugly or otherwise) how is fitting for flat, upright, short or long going to help if every other swing is different?

I think i mentioned this earlier. Despite what you think that your swing is not repeatable, you will actually find that it is for the required characteristics to be fitted on.

particularly in respect of lie angle, clubhead speed and load. These things dont change that much.

Then there are the other factors that the clubmakers needs to use determines the fitting from, which usually would be 10-20 questions ascertaining the golfers current experience and what he changes or preferences he likes,
ie higher or lower ball flight
more accuracy of more distance
help avoiding a hook or a slice

[TheNuclearOne]

I didn't say that either. But without a repeatable swing (ugly or otherwise) how is fitting for flat, upright, short or long going to help if every other swing is different?


What would you term a repeatable swing? Tho hard to define, what handicap level would you say starts to see repeatable swings?

[3oneday]

This is what I really started out to achieve, lively debate that doesn't end with "just because".

I for one have never been fitted, but then a lot of folks think that I ho to buy a better game. They are wrong.

MTB stats of 0.02% doesn't surprise me at all, if a local golfer hit driver badly enough for long enough they will buy a new one. Some will simply buy when the old one wears out (no one I know ;)) but this seeing spin differences on a 4 or 5 iron I don't get at all I'm sorry.

If someone swings 80mph with a 5 iron and used a 120 gram shaft of no particular make or model, how could they possibly tell ?

[markTHEblake]

but this seeing spin differences on a 4 or 5 iron I don't get at all I'm sorry.

I dont know why any regular hacker would bother going to that level.


If someone swings 80mph with a 5 iron and used a 120 gram shaft of no particular make or model, how could they possibly tell ?

The last irons i had before i was fitted where a shambles, TTDG's in heads designed for lightweight shafts. they were horrible but i thought i was just a bad golfer, because i just knew they were 'good clubs' As I never ever hit other peoples clubs or demos, i didnt know any difference.

I dont think you personally are a good example for this discussion, you obviously know what you like (which means the same as what suits you) based on a lot of experience trying different clubs, as opposed to me who has no idea at all, except what a clubfitter told me.

[Hux]

I find it hard to imagine that custom fitting for a chopper would make any difference other than be sorted for the very basics like length.
Isn't the secret of a good swing repeatability? If so then if you have no repeatability then custom fitting is wasted until you have a consistent swing.
I have gone from playing 1/2" 2* up to 1" and std. No real difference - but then I am generally a chopper. :-)

[markTHEblake]

I have gone from playing 1/2" 2* up to 1" and std. No real difference

I would have to check my maths thoroughly, cos I made one rash post tonight without thinking clearly, and I don't want to make another, but going to a longer shaft does mean the lie has to become flatter.

a half inch of shaft length means the lie angle has to change by 1 degree, so there is not much of a change there at all (1 degree), and if you now have the correct lie, you are better off.

The fact is that if you have the wrong lie angles, it will impact on your shot angles, with the difference becoming more exaggerated as each iron gets shorter.

[Hux]

I would have to check my maths thoroughly, cos I made one rash post tonight without thinking clearly, and I don't want to make another, but going to a longer shaft does mean the lie has to become flatter.

a half inch of shaft length means the lie angle has to change by 1 degree, so there is not much of a change there at all (1 degree), and if you now have the correct lie, you are better off.

The fact is that if you have the wrong lie angles, it will impact on your shot angles, with the difference becoming more exaggerated as each iron gets shorter.

Not disputing it MTB I just see that the issue of fitting is probably a lot more relevant for you with a HCP of 5 than it is for me with a HCP of 18.2 (woo hoo new low).

[razaar]

One of the things about golf equipment is there is no "standard" standard with equipment between all the brands. In fact the whole golf equipment industry is a bit of a mine field when it comes to choosing the clubs that will serve you best. Seeking the advice of a custom club fitter is similar to engaging a project manager. It may cost more but at least you have somebody who knows the science etc looking after your interests. The key is to find the right club fitter (like everything else). How to go about this is another issue for debate.

[goonie]

I would have to check my maths thoroughly, cos I made one rash post tonight without thinking clearly, and I don't want to make another, but going to a longer shaft does mean the lie has to become flatter.

a half inch of shaft length means the lie angle has to change by 1 degree, so there is not much of a change there at all (1 degree), and if you now have the correct lie, you are better off.

The fact is that if you have the wrong lie angles, it will impact on your shot angles, with the difference becoming more exaggerated as each iron gets shorter.

more length means more upright MTB.

[markTHEblake]

Not disputing it MTB I just see that the issue of fitting is probably a lot more relevant for you with a HCP of 5 than it is for me with a HCP of 18.2 (woo hoo new low).

You hit the key word there - relative. There are many different levels of fitting and this discussion probably loses sight of that.

All golfers should be fitted, how far each person goes with it, comes down to value for money.

Personally I have not had a driver assessment with a launch monitor, nor a putting assessment, and I know I would benefit from both, but the $$$ is a turnoff. I'd easily walk away from a driver fitting $500 poorer, and i resent putting too much to spend money on it.

[goonie]

This is what I really started out to achieve, lively debate that doesn't end with "just because".

I for one have never been fitted, but then a lot of folks think that I ho to buy a better game. They are wrong.

MTB stats of 0.02% doesn't surprise me at all, if a local golfer hit driver badly enough for long enough they will buy a new one. Some will simply buy when the old one wears out (no one I know ;)) but this seeing spin differences on a 4 or 5 iron I don't get at all I'm sorry.

If someone swings 80mph with a 5 iron and used a 120 gram shaft of no particular make or model, how could they possibly tell ?

One of the things I was asked to do by Gary at GCI was to see if i could tell the difference in SW between 2 clubs, ie which had the higher SW, from what Gary told me there are many people that can't feel the difference in SW and club weight, I just can't remember what the name for it was, but I guess it makes a difference to how they are fitted.

Also if you don't get enough backspin on the ball with a long iron it will not travel it's full distance, and the opposite can happen as well, so yes spin can make a difference, that is why hybrids work for a lot of people because they spin the ball more with a higher launch than a long iron. It is not something I made up.

[markTHEblake]

what Gary told me there are many people that can't feel the difference in SW and club weight

I either read or heard (possibly even from Gary) that its about 4 SW points before most can notice the difference.

That doesnt mean that changing a set by less than 4 points is not going to make a difference though

[goonie]

I either read or heard (possibly even from Gary) that its about 4 SW points before most can notice the difference.

That doesnt mean that changing a set by less than 4 points is not going to make a difference though

I'm just saying that some people can't even feel big changes in weight and swing weight.

[LarryLong]

I have a theory that people are too obsessed with "feel", and they have a tendency to form conclusions from what the scientific world would call a very poor experiment.

A question for the fitter types - will the club that gives the best possible result always feel the best, or is it possible to have a club that feels weird and performs better?

People like 3 who have hit just about everything on the market and have a fair idea what works for them probably don't need fitting. However, I reckon the majority of people have tried a very small sample of the available choices and have made firm decisions based on feel, and I don't think that could ever stand up to scrutiny.

As for me, I was fitted for my previous set, but I bought my current set off the shelf. I didn't want to throw good money after bad, to be honest, but if I was in any way serious I would get fitted for shafts.

[3oneday]

Also if you don't get enough backspin on the ball with a long iron it will not travel it's full distance, and the opposite can happen as well, so yes spin can make a difference, that is why hybrids work for a lot of people because they spin the ball more with a higher launch than a long iron. It is not something I made up.
Fair enough, I was trying to understand the logic.

If I decided to play a 3 iron, it would be because I was playing a longer (and possibly softer greened) course that didn't need high soft approaches that a hybrid produces.

I would say that I can't use a hybrid with more than 21 degrees, because I have, and they simply go nowhere. I just can't equate that to the shaft, I would have thought that's more a design of the hybrid thing ?

[fredstar]

Just got new irons that are 2*up after using standard lie and the difference is noticable. No more toe hits and toe heavy divots. Contact is much better.

Also went from PX5.0 to KBS stiff which feel much smoother.

I'll take the fitted irons thanks.

[razaar]

It is related to where the centre of gravity is in the head. Because it has a wood style head the CG will be back behind the face. This must bring "gear effect" into the equasion. If it does then where the ball is struck on the face will have a very real impact on spin. Lee posted about increased back spin with a hybrid over an iron of simiar loft...I would question that theory.

[3oneday]

Just got new irons that are 2*up after using standard lie and the difference is noticable. No more toe hits and toe heavy divots. Contact is much better.

Also went from PX5.0 to KBS stiff which feel much smoother.

I'll take the fitted irons thanks.
when are they hitting the pro shop ?


;)

[fredstar]

Bought the x22 tour off goonie and the burners are on ebay! Will be a while before the x22 are on the chopping block....they are keepers for now

[BrisVegas]

.they are keepers for now

:lol:

[Tomson]

wow isn't this a hot topic.

[goonie]

Fair enough, I was trying to understand the logic.

If I decided to play a 3 iron, it would be because I was playing a longer (and possibly softer greened) course that didn't need high soft approaches that a hybrid produces.

I would say that I can't use a hybrid with more than 21 degrees, because I have, and they simply go nowhere. I just can't equate that to the shaft, I would have thought that's more a design of the hybrid thing ?

Swing speed will be the first factor in what the lowest loft iron and hybrid you will be able to hit, followed by spin and launch angle, but if your not close to the right spin rate or launch your SS won't matter to much.

Most of the launch and spin comes from head design but you can still adjust these with shafts. I would be very surprised if you didn't notice the difference between nippon 950's or TX90s and DG SL shafts in the same clubs, the launch and spin would be noticable different.

[goonie]

Bought the x22 tour off zig and the burners are on ebay! Will be a while before the x22 are on the chopping block....they are keepers for now

you got them off me not Zig, thats an insult :-)

[fredstar]

you got them off me not Zig, thats an insult :-)

sorry Lee, got the names mixed up!! Loving the irons btw

[TheNuclearOne]

3, absolute top shelf iron fitting will have you hitting more balls off the center of the face and having better overall consistency of impact. Many seem to forget this is the basis of a great fitting.

[Hux]

You hit the key word there - relative. There are many different levels of fitting and this discussion probably loses sight of that.

All golfers should be fitted, how far each person goes with it, comes down to value for money.

Personally I have not had a driver assessment with a launch monitor, nor a putting assessment, and I know I would benefit from both, but the $$$ is a turnoff. I'd easily walk away from a driver fitting $500 poorer, and i resent putting too much to spend money on it.

If/when I ever get to the states I am really keen to get to the Rife Studio near Orlando for a putter fitting. You get fit for you stroke and style and the correct style of putter recommended although you can look at whatever you want. Sounds really good considering you get your specs and a custom putter for your $$.

I think with driver fittings we all seem to stuff around with lofts and shafts until we find what we like. I fitting would probably be cheaper by a significant factor over buying and selling drivers and shafts :-)

[3oneday]

So, is there a noticeable difference between PX FLighted 5.5, PX Flighted 6.0 and Dygolds ?

I hear you TNO, I hit this 7 iron Cally X22 Tour PX 5.5 the other morning. It felt upright but I marginally toe of centred everything, hitting it on the face where supposedly a 3 degree flat lie should hit it for me :confused:

[TourFit]

OK...you guys got me. I'm in. Here goes.

Fitting takes in MANY different characteristics...not just on the components themselves but you as well.

The first thing I look at first is fundamentals. You know, the basic stuff that we all largely ignore anyway because it says Titleist instead (or TaylorMade, Callaway, insert other name brand here...). :razz:

What I mean is what is your handicap, what type of bad shots do you have and where do they mostly go. What clubs are you using now and in what make-up of set. Are they the 'right' basic components for your ability/swing level? Do they match - shafts, grips, weights etc. Are they the right length, lie, are the grips the correct size for your hand. Do you have a swingweight preference (can you tell the difference?).

Think of it this way...when you go to a pro for a lesson for the first time, most of them will look at the FUNDAMENTALS of grip, posture and weight placement, ball position and alignment. For many, there are often flaws enough in these areas that need to be addressed BEFORE YOU EVEN SWING A CLUB.

Remember too, that there are 19-20 different specifications within the golf club that can be changed...some have major effects, some medium and some minor. Some will affect different people differently. Most of all they are largely CUMULATIVE. Small changes for the good in one area might not make much change, but small changes in 4-5 areas - for example grip size, swingweight, lie angle, set make-up and shaft weight - may make a considerable difference.

I also consider higher handicappers to get MORE benefit from a proper consultation/fit than lower h'cappers. Think of it as mainly due to inconsistencies. If you are a higher h'capper then you have inconsistencies in your swing/ability. No escaping that...but if you have inconsistencies in your equipment as well, then add them into an already largish pot and you've just made those inconsistencies more prevalent. How many shafts do you have in your bag? (I see a lot of guys with driver shaft and then other shafts in the FW's, then different ones again in the hybrids, iron shafts and finally different wedge shafts. Try keeping the wood shafts the same - or from the same 'family' of shafts - and the iron shafts the same. Wedges should match irons, and hybrids should either match with irons (if replacing long irons) OR match upwards with the FW's and driver.

Also, how many different grips, are those grip sizes different, too. What about swingweights and balances, they will be different if the shafts are different !!! Flexes of those different shafts...NOT TO MENTION FEEL !!Now do you begin to see?

I ALWAYS say to higher handicap players to try to reduce the inconsistencies within the bag, as well as choose the right bag make-up to begin with, and you will go a long way to helping score better, and more importantly, consistently.

What I consider 'FINE TUNING', such as achieving better spin rates with driver etc come AFTER the fundamentals are met. Using driver as a specific example, there is no point looking at changing shafts willy nilly to get more distance, trajectory or spin rates if the basic fundamental flaw is concerned with the length of the club or the loft on the face. Most 'off the rack' drivers these days are too long (and generally too low in loft) for average golfers TO USE CONSISTENTLY...That's not to say that you can't hit good drives with it, just not enough good drives!!

Anyway, there is PLENTY more to talk about. I will address some other issues in following posts.

Please don't berate me for the extra long post...I do this for a living !!!

BTW...the best bit of sage advice that I have been given EVER about golf, was from a wizened old clubmaker in Carnoustie, Scotland as a boy was this:

"The whole point of the game is to hit the ball in the middle of the clubface with that clubface square...EVERYTHING else in the game should be built around that premise, whatever club is being used"

So the fitting aspects are (or should be) following the above necessity...

[3oneday]

Now do you begin to see?

I have no probs at all with seeing it, but in this instance I don't believe seeing is always believing ;)



Please don't berate me for the extra long post...I do this for a living !!!
I enjoyed it, it's well structured and easy to read 8)


So the fitting aspects are (or should be) following the above necessity...so why does everyone have different theories, when we are all trying to do the same thing ?

I loved what you wrote, not a single bit of "just because" at all.

I guess ultimately a lot of golfers just golf... and that's where the line is drawn I think.

[TheNuclearOne]

So, is there a noticeable difference between PX FLighted 5.5, PX Flighted 6.0 and Dygolds ?

I hear you TNO, I hit this 7 iron Cally X22 Tour PX 5.5 the other morning. It felt upright but I marginally toe of centred everything, hitting it on the face where supposedly a 3 degree flat lie should hit it for me :confused:

Believe it or not finding the correct shaft weight/profile and perfect cpm range (and according to one legendary fitter it's VERY small) is the go for finding the center of the clubface tho obviously we need a decent length and lie fit.

[razaar]

What is the science behind that one TNO?

[TheNuclearOne]

3, do yourself a fave and read the initial post in my link. The legendary fitter Dana Upshaw is as good as it gets, and he fits to basically a single CPM. Check out his fitting stages. Unfortunately a website i used to visit that had two or three enormous stories about his fitting is now gone. As far as fitting goes, they were incredible reads.

Of course this is a very serious fitting level, but it gives you an idea of potantial benefits and the like.

[zigwah]

how do i find a combination that i loved in a driver with no idea what it was.

mad mac and an aldila shafts used to hit miles

[TourFit]

so why does everyone have different theories, when we are all trying to do the same thing ?

I guess ultimately a lot of golfers just golf... and that's where the line is drawn I think.

There are lots of different theories...as there are about the golf swing. Look at the difference between Leadbetter/Butch/Hank/Stack 'n' Tilt etc. It's just focussing / concentrating on what THEY believe to be the more important aspects of what they do.

In my case I tend to concentrate FAR MORE on fundamentals of the clubs before fine tuning because in this day and age, the off the rack stuff is getting more and more away from correct and applicable fundamentals THAT ACTUALLY MAKE THE GAME EASIER !!!

What's the point of TM (for example) spending all that research time and money coming up with a High MOI/Easy To Hit/Larger Sweet Spot/Thin Face/Thin Crowned/Moveable Weight/Adjustable Lie Driver....and then making it nearly 46" long with a 49g shaft that flexes VERY soft in basically 9.5* and 10.5* lofts. Those fundamentals will KILL most average players for distance, consistency, accuracy and dispersion.

(the true secret is that it is purely economic!)

As for golfers just golfing...I know a lot of GOOD golfers (low h'cappers & pro's too) that have NO SENSE OF FEEL AT ALL. And anyway, what feels good to one person will feel crap to another. Some people are sensitive to some things and not to others, and vice versa...I put a lot of thought into my slogan "Individual Clubs Made For Individual Golfers".

I cannot stress enough that that is a very valuable thing to realise...that there is no such thing as "this shaft is better than that shaft" or the "perfect shaft" or anything like that. And we, as mere mortal golfers, often don't have the skill levels, and in some cases sensitivity levels, to pick subtle changes to things. The PX5.5 / KBS Stiff issue is one example. If it had been PX5.5 / Nippon NSPRO 850GH then you would notice, or KBS Stiff / 70g graphite also. Think putting on (blind) a pair of Adidas runners, and then Nike runners and telling the difference...now take off the Adidas runners and put on some Blundstones !!!

[Johnny Canuck]

From my experience. I had never had my lies checked or adjusted until about 6 months ago. I visited Tourfit and ended up getting some clubs bent as much as 5* upright.

At first, I couldn't hit the things and was getting very frustrated. I almost gave in and got them bent back.

I stuck with it and I would probably say that my irons are better than they have ever been.

I don't place too much emphasis on the actual clubs, I believe it is about 95% the person's swing.

However, after this experience, I will be getting them checked again and any new sets adjusted in the future.

[virge666]

Top Work TourFit... I wish I could make as much sense.

[razaar]

I must be in the minority because it didn't make much sense to me. Sorry Tourfit, but I have to disagree with much of what you say because it conflicts with the findings of the scientific study into the golf swing and equipment commissioned by the Golf Society of Great Britian in the 1960's. To my knowledge this is the only study of its type that has been published for public access. The study itself took several years to complete by a team of scientists and is the basis and foundation principles of the modern swing and modern equipment. Equipment companies have continued the research and introduced new materials as they have become available, but the underlying principles and finds of the study are still relevant.

[3oneday]

I must be in the minority because it didn't make much sense to me. I have nothing to add.


:lol:

[Johnny Canuck]

Anything without paragraphs doesn't make sense to me.

[razaar]

Anything without paragraphs doesn't make sense to me.
3's posts are senseless.

Yep I agree.


:lol:

[TourFit]

Razaar, that's fine. I KNOW not everyone agrees...that is partly the point of the whole debate.

Have you ever seen a science geek swing a club and hit a ball - no athletic ability, no swing speed and the lab coat just gets in the way on the backswing...then all the pens fly out of the pocket :mrgreen:

It all comes down to the 1 major fitting principle....

L.O.F.T. - Lack Of F**king Talent

[3oneday]

Anything without paragraphs doesn't make sense to me.
I'm pleased it isn't just me ;)

3's posts are senseless.

just because ? :)

Maybe I should start a poll, asking who thinks golf is a science ?

[razaar]

Maybe I should start a poll, asking who thinks shafts and custom fitting is a science ?
And why not.

[TheNuclearOne]

Maybe I should start a poll, asking who thinks golf is a science ?

1960's science Buster! Not just science.

[Jarro]

Did somebody say science ?

Maybe we need to ask our favourite Mythbuster ;)

http://media.ebaumsworld.com/picture/Audiophile/KariByronDemotivationalPoster.jpg

[Pieface]

Milfbusters! I love that show

[TheNuclearOne]

Here's a few medium level fittings with actual numbers to ponder. These fittings are well worth the read.

R9 Driver x 2

http://www.golf.com/golf/equipment/article/0,28136,1948244-1,00.html

909 Driver x 2

http://www.golf.com/golf/equipment/article/0,28136,1878656,00.html

Nike driver x 2

http://www.golf.com/golf/equipment/article/0,28136,1933926,00.html

Callaway irons x 2

http://www.golf.com/golf/equipment/article/0,28136,1588402,00.html

Here's an eye opening Bridgestone ball fitting x 2, BIG gains here

http://www.golf.com/golf/equipment/article/0,28136,1925253,00.html

[3oneday]

Here's a few medium level fittings with actual numbers to ponder. These fittings are well worth the read.

R9 Driver x 2

http://www.golf.com/golf/equipment/article/0,28136,1948244-1,00.html


Whilst I also probably would prefer MILFBusters 8) this statement re the R9 "This adjustment takes Frank's disaster shot [duck hook]out of play." is crap"

[markTHEblake]

Here's an eye opening Bridgestone ball fitting x 2, BIG gains here

clubhead speed of 110mph and he only hits it 234 yards carry with the new ball


and secondly, how did the new ball change the spin from significant slice spin to a draw spin.

that data looks completely spurious to me.

[LarryLong]

A question for the fitter types - will the club that gives the best possible result always feel the best, or is it possible to have a club that feels weird and performs better?

Disappointed that nobody answered this question, especially the boffin types.

If you give a guy a selection of clubs, including one that is perfectly fitted to his swing for the best possible results, will he automatically pick the right one?

[TheNuclearOne]

Whilst I also probably would prefer MILFBusters 8) this statement re the R9 "This adjustment takes Frank's disaster shot [duck hook]out of play." is crap"

You might be focusing too much on the (as did the fitter, but he's got to plug TM) talk of an open face and fade bias face angle. Where much of the story lies is in the 45.5 down to 45 club length and a regular shaft being changed to a stiff. BIG changes going to stiff. I mean look at the height he hit previous, wtf? I have no problem seeing the collection of flex change, shortening and perhaps less major changes of bias and face angle taking his duck hook out. Not hard to picture at all.

[TheNuclearOne]

Disappointed that nobody answered this question, especially the boffin types.

If you give a guy a selection of clubs, including one that is perfectly fitted to his swing for the best possible results, will he automatically pick the right one?

No. The one giving the best figures may feel boardy etc where another might feel pure but not give ideal figures. Say for instance in a driver. The player might love the silken feel of the Redboard in his G10, but he swings at 100mph and it gives him 17* of launch and 3950rpm of backspin. With the Prolaunch Red it feels boardy, and even a bit dead to him, but blasts it out there at 13.5* and 3000rpm.

[damoocow]

Shaft question for the frequent posters in this thread. Need a 52 wedge to fill a gap in my bag - thinking of getting a Maltby head cheap from the US - I don't play my 3/4/5 irons and thinking of using the 5 iron shaft cut to wedge length for the 52. Would the effect be of making the shaft [graphite R flex] way too stiff ?

[3oneday]

You might be focusing too much on the (as did the fitter, but he's got to plug TM) talk of an open face and fade bias face angle.
you are correct, more than 2 lines and I'm screwed ;)

[TheNuclearOne]

clubhead speed of 110mph and he only hits it 234 yards carry with the new ball


Did you see his launch details and smash factor tho? They are ordinary. 9.4* is not pretty even at 110. The guy needs a driver fitting, badly. And 109mph SS converting to 149 ball speed tells us all we need to know. Very poor smash factor. Read further and his 8 iron is just one yard longer with the new ball, but his driver is 11 better thru the air and 15 overall.

[PeteyD]

Did somebody say science ?

Maybe we need to ask our favourite Mythbuster ;)


http://14.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_krxwnuD8AD1qan26vo1_500.jpg

[TheNuclearOne]

you are correct, more than 2 lines and I'm screwed ;)

Hahahaha. So basically for you, go out and get a 9015D, put in a tip stiff low torque shaft as stiff as comfortable and BOMBS AWAY!!!! POONTANG!

[TheNuclearOne]

Quite like that nerd too, Petey :smt038

[razaar]

http://www.golf.com/golf/equipment/article/0,28136,1925253,00.html

What a load of crap that is.

[3oneday]

I thought ideal launch was about 5° more than that ?

[TheNuclearOne]

I thought ideal launch was about 5° more than that ?

Which is one of the reasons why his distances are shyte for his SS. They weren't gonna get the ideal launch with a ball tho. They did pretty well actually, tho the draw is dubious. A driver fitting would help a bit but i reckon he's hitting down too much on driver.

[markTHEblake]

Disappointed that nobody answered this question, especially the boffin types.

If you give a guy a selection of clubs, including one that is perfectly fitted to his swing for the best possible results, will he automatically pick the right one?

There is no such single club fit, there are many combinations that can suit a golfer.

Being fitted goes way beyond referring to a chart for recommended flex for a certain swing speed, length for height, that includes the fitter finding out from the golfer what he likes and adapting that into what he sees.

So if amongst those clubs you mentioned, there is just one in there that he likes, then for sure he will pick out that one after hitting balls wont he.

[goonie]

Shaft question for the frequent posters in this thread. Need a 52 wedge to fill a gap in my bag - thinking of getting a Maltby head cheap from the US - I don't play my 3/4/5 irons and thinking of using the 5 iron shaft cut to wedge length for the 52. Would the effect be of making the shaft [graphite R flex] way too stiff ?

I wouldn't recommend it, long iron shafts are softer than short iron shafts because the heads weight less so putting a 5 iron shaft into a wedge will make it play very soft, plus the weight will be very low too.

[SV8]

Guys - i spent 2 years at golf mart granville - it was a fact the fitting irons which were mostly very old brosnans were that bashed up from striking the hard mat the lie angles were mostly wrong, the length of the six irons varied and some of the shaft bands were showing the wrong flex ...... end result was most custom fitted clubs arrived 1 degree upright and were suppose to be 1 degree flat !

3OD your first comment is spot on - guys thought the fitting worked miracles because they had to wait 3 weeks for their clubs to arrive - thinking they weren't prepared in the PING tour van - sadly they weren't.

As for the clubs sold - performance based salesman sold the model which paid him the most commission, end of.

[TheNuclearOne]

I'm not sure about others, but i don't call that fitting. Well, it's not what i had in mind that's for sure. I wonder what TF thinks :-k

[markTHEblake]

S- thinking of getting a Maltby head cheap from the US -

i want to pick up a couple of items from there too, how/when are you thinking?

[damoocow]

i want to pick up a couple of items from there too, how/when are you thinking?

Not sure if I will - am going to have a look at how much a 52/56/60 set is made and posted - if I decide to buy I'll let you know - can you recommend their stuff ?

[3oneday]

Guys - i spent 2 years at golf mart granville
Hmmm, my bro works at Drummonds in your town ;)

[markTHEblake]

Not sure if I will - am going to have a look at how much a 52/56/60 set is made and posted

they charge $10 to assemble the club for you, postage probably will be around $35, i think about $30 is the minimum. Ijust want to get about 3 shafts and a putter head

if you want to get a firm rate quote send an email to the 'international service' address right down the bottom of the home page.



can you recommend their stuff ? i have a golf bag full of their stuff.

[just]

If you do get some stuff, I'de be interested in a few items.

[3oneday]

Hahahaha. So basically for you, go out and get a 9015D, put in a tip stiff low torque shaft as stiff as comfortable and BOMBS AWAY!!!! POONTANG!
so, who's been fitted this year then ?

I fitted a reg flex Motore to my R9, went great guns first round out ;)

[Chris32]

Anyone been fitted for a putter??

[TourFit]

Me...

...and if there is ONE club that you should be fitted for IT IS THE PUTTER !!!

Look at the following things as constituting a fitting.

1) Have a head shape you like (ignore brand), and with a feel you like.
2) Make sure the grip you choose feels comfortable - for size, texture,
softness etc
3) In your comfortable and repeatable stance, make sure the end of the
shaft is level with the wrist crease of your top hand.
4) Adjust the lie to bring your eyes directly over (or marginally inside) the
ball. At the same time the putter head should sit flat (or very
marginally toe up) on the ground.
5) If possible, the putter shaft and left forearm (for RH's) should be in a
straight line. This will depend largely on individual stance and hand
position within that stance.

Thus, the fitted putter becomes an On Course fitting tool to get you into correct position EVERYTIME !!!

When the putter sits flat behind the ball, and the top of the grip is level with your wrist crease, and you are in your normal, comfortable putting stance then you will be FUNDAMENTALLY in a better position to hit better, more consistent putts.

You still gotta read the green, hit the putt on the correct line and at the correct speed etc :mrgreen:

[Chris32]

Makes sense

I grabbed my dads putter which has been sitting in the shed for 15 years, its an Old Master brand, its a little longer than standard with a slightly thicker grip, and seems to fit me better than my putter (feels more comfortable)

1 3 putt all day last week got me thinking about it and maybe this putter fits me better. I don't like the look of it as much as my putter either, but while its working...

[TheNuclearOne]

so, who's been fitted this year then ?

I fitted a reg flex Motore to my R9, went great guns first round out ;)

I fitted an F6M2 into the D, it fitters well.

[TourFit]

I fitted an F6M2 into the D, it fitters well.

Hmmm, NOICE !!!

:smt060

[TheNuclearOne]

Hmmm, NOICE !!!

:smt060

I can now comment. Had one quick practise session, one comp and another practice session with this shaft. In the latter i realised my right hand grip had become weak over the last couple of months.

Anyways, i can now say the F6M2 is the most incredible of shafts. Played it in the comp today and had my one bad drive of the entire day on hole 17. Went OB then smashed my next two drives to finish the day.

I've used some very exotic shafts but the F6M2 takes the cake. Incredible feel, great distance and that tight dispersion (per ability level) everyone likes to rant about.

The F7M2 was just a bit too much for me on a few levels but the F6 is a different matter. Very special shaft for those it fits.

[adlo]

Is this in a 9015D?

[TheNuclearOne]

Is this in a 9015D?

Yeh mate, the BB73 setup must now take a back seat. Right off i hit my biggest drive that hole for a year and tho i didn't hit monsters (per ability level) every hole they were straight as and quite long overall.

[razaar]

For $450 + per shaft, I would expect nothing less.

[matty]

For $450 + per shaft, I would expect nothing less. :shock:

[TheNuclearOne]

I paid a third of that Raz. I would wonder if any shaft would be worth that much.