Last rules infringement you let slide.

[Ferrins]

Playing partner was breaking off branches so he could get a better swing at the ball.

[Jarro]

I don't let any slide.

I'm a stickler for the rules man :roll:

[WBennett]

Point of entry for a drop. He should have gone back to the tee but as he had 15 points after 15 holes, it was all academic really.

[grandmasterb]

Playing partner was breaking off branches so he could get a better swing at the ball.

There is a difference between "backing into" a shot and having a branch snap and snapping them off deliberately.

If its the latter, let him have it as there is no room for cheats on the golf course ;)

[Ferrins]

It was the latter.

[Ferrins]

I've got to get tougher, I guess.

[Jarro]

Were you aware of the rule at the time ?

[pt73]

I called a penalty on a partner once, problem is he was the club president and also on the state association's rules committee. It was on the 2nd hole and he didn't talk to me for the rest of the round.

[Ferrins]

I was aware but I was at the other side of the fairway and his next shot hit the tree's and went deep.

[parlyboy]

Point of entry for a drop. He should have gone back to the tee but as he had 15 points after 15 holes, it was all academic really.

Im booked with you next week Benno - and im bringing my rules book!!:mrgreen:

[zacdullard]

The ball moving whilst being addressed, this happens quite a bit and nobody calls themselves on it.

[grandmasterb]

The ball moving whilst being addressed, this happens quite a bit and nobody calls themselves on it.

Read the rule on that though as its a bit of a tricky one IMO and cause an argument for 18holes with a group i played in with once haha

[AndyP]

It's easy to let a minor discretion slip or get casual about where it should be dropped when they are already having a turd of a round.

[Daves]

Raking a bunker before a shot.

Mate went into bunker to get a rake and raked his foot prints (and others I gather) on the way out. Then went right to the other end of the bunker to play his shot. I asked him what he was doing raking the bunker? He didn't even seem to realise it was the same bunker or that he had done it. Put him on notice, but did not call a penalty. Think he wiped the hole in the end anyway.

[adlo]

Read the rule on that though as its a bit of a tricky one IMO and cause an argument for 18holes with a group i played in with once haha

I am confused by this one. I get the address on the putting green side of it, but what about on a full swing?

[Ferrins]

Raking a bunker before a shot.

Mate went into bunker to get a rake and raked his foot prints (and others I gather) on the way out. Then went right to the other end of the bunker to play his shot. I asked him what he was doing raking the bunker? He didn't even seem to realise it was the same bunker or that he had done it. Put him on notice, but did not call a penalty. Think he wiped the hole in the end anyway.
I played with a trainee pro at a club in Brisbane who did the same thing.

[grandmasterb]

I am confused by this one. I get the address on the putting green side of it, but what about on a full swing?

My understanding is once you've taken a practice swing you have "started" your shot so if you then take your stance and the ball moves/falls off the tee it is classed as a shot???

[adlo]

Hmmmm, not sure.

[parlyboy]

My understanding is once you've taken a practice swing you have "started" your shot so if you then take your stance and the ball moves/falls off the tee it is classed as a shot???

Nope.

[markTHEblake]

Someone at the champs tried to let someone off a half arsed airswing on a 2 inch putt that probably not many would have noticed. But I wouldnt let the idiot get away with it.

[Ferrins]

If the ball falls of the tee and you have not attempted to hit there is no penalty. Through the green if you ground you're club at address and the ball moves then you cop a one stroke penalty and need to replace ball to original spot.

[grandmasterb]

If the ball falls of the tee and you have not attempted to hit there is no penalty. Through the green if you ground you're club at address and the ball moves then you cop a one stroke penalty and need to replace ball to original spot.

Not according to rule 18-2b its not ;)

[Daves]

11-3. Ball Falling off Tee
If a ball, when not in play, falls off a tee or is knocked off a tee by the player in addressing it, it may be re-teed, without penalty. However, if a stroke is made at the ball in these circumstances, whether the ball is moving or not, the stroke counts, but there is no penalty.

[grandmasterb]

11-3. Ball Falling off Tee
If a ball, when not in play, falls off a tee or is knocked off a tee by the player in addressing it, it may be re-teed, without penalty. However, if a stroke is made at the ball in these circumstances, whether the ball is moving or not, the stroke counts, but there is no penalty.

That's whilst addressing the ball not after addressing it though so the ruling is different again.

[senecio]

It's easy to let a minor discretion slip or get casual about where it should be dropped when they are already having a turd of a round.

I'm with you Andy, I understand the rules are there for a reason, but golf at our level is supposed to be fun. I couldn't care where a ball is dropped if they are not in contention.

Just get it back into play and keep moving.

[grandmasterb]

I'm with you Andy, I understand the rules are there for a reason, but golf at our level is supposed to be fun. I couldn't care where a ball is dropped if they are not in contention.

Just get it back into play and keep moving.

That's all well and good but the problem with that is where do you draw the line???

If the person was in contention to win something you would pull him up but if he wasn't you would let it go even though chances are it would take the same amount of time for each player to proceed???

[Johnny Canuck]

My understanding is once you've taken a practice swing you have "started" your shot so if you then take your stance and the ball moves/falls off the tee it is classed as a shot???

Incorrect.

The ball falling off the tee is not a penalty unless you have addressed and taken a swing at the ball.

If you knock the ball off the tee while addressing the ball, it is replaced with no penalty.


That's whilst addressing the ball not after addressing it though so the ruling is different again.

A little confused by this. The act of addressing continues from when you take your stance until you begin your swing. The only thing "after" addressing it is the swing.

[Johnny Canuck]

I let my managing director get away with playing with 16 clubs in his bag a few weeks ago.

I want to go to more golf days!

[grandmasterb]

Incorrect.

The ball falling off the tee is not a penalty unless you have addressed and taken a swing at the ball.

If you knock the ball off the tee while addressing the ball, it is replaced with no penalty.



A little confused by this. The act of addressing continues from when you take your stance until you begin your swing. The only thing "after" addressing it is the swing.

Thats the problem though mate everyone's understanding is different. I've had 3 different rules quoted for the samething.

[senecio]

That's all well and good but the problem with that is where do you draw the line???

If the person was in contention to win something you would pull him up but if he wasn't you would let it go even though chances are it would take the same amount of time for each player to proceed???

If you're willing to turn an enjoyable Saturday morning round into a tense confrontation by telling a playing partner he has to go back 3m when he's going to be lucky to beat 30 points, then you play golf for different reason than I do.

[grandmasterb]

If you're willing to turn an enjoyable Saturday morning round into a tense confrontation by telling a playing partner he has to go back 3m when he's going to be lucky to beat 30 points, then you play golf for different reason than I do.

I play by the rules and i dont see it as a tense confrontation unless thats what you make it. Normally i will ask them if they are aware of the ruling for future reference ;)

[Johnny Canuck]

Thats the problem though mate everyone's understanding is different. I've had 3 different rules quoted for the samething.

The rule book clearly defines things such as addressing, swing, etc..

This is one rule that is not really open to interpretation, in my opinion. The rules surrounding this are very black and white.

A few people's understanding of these appear to be a bit cloudy.

If I get a chance, I'll cut and paste some things in.

[grandmasterb]

The rule book clearly defines things such as addressing, swing, etc..

This is one rule that is not really open to interpretation, in my opinion. The rules surrounding this are very black and white.

A few people's understanding of these appear to be a bit cloudy.

If I get a chance, I'll cut and paste some things in.

That would be good JC as we are obviously reading different rules for the samething and id like to know which should apply and why would they write two???

[Johnny Canuck]

Ok,

Here is what I have found GMB.

Definition- Ball in Play: A ball is "in play" as soon as the player has made a stroke on the teeing ground.

Rule 11.3 If a ball, when not in play, falls off a tee or is knocked off a tee by the player in addressing it, it may be re-teed, without penalty. However, if a stroke is made at the ball in these circumstances, whether the ball is moving or not, the stroke counts, but there is no penalty.

The big issue with it being on the tee is that it is not in play until a stroke is made at the ball. Even if you have addressed the ball, it is not yet in play, so you do not receive a penalty.

Even if you swing and miss (a "windy") the ball is now in play. If you then knock it off the tee, penalty and you must replace it.

See Decision 11.3/1 When the player made a stroke at the ball, it was in play and Rule 11-3 no longer applied. When the ball in play moved after it was addressed, the player incurred a penalty stroke and was obliged to replace the ball (Rule 18-2b).

That should clear it all up.

See you all in a few hours, I'm going home.

[Jarro]

What about a practice putting stroke ?

[PeteyD]

I think you can rake a bunker prior to playing your shot. As long as you do not do it to test the condition, alter your stance etc.

[Ferrins]

I think you can rake a bunker prior to playing your shot. As long as you do not do it to test the condition, alter your stance etc.
You can ground your rake or club if you have lost your balance. Raking any part of the bunker before your shot is leaving yourself open for a penalty.

[Eag's]

You can ground your rake or club if you have lost your balance. Raking any part of the bunker before your shot is leaving yourself open for a penalty.

Yep that was my understanding as well.

[Moe Norman]

I think you can rake a bunker prior to playing your shot. As long as you do not do it to test the condition, alter your stance etc.
Correct, it's best not to do it, because you leave yourself open, but at the end of the day the rule relates to 'testing the surface' and isn't specific to raking.

[3oneday]

There is a difference between "backing into" a shot and having a branch snap and snapping them off deliberately.
is there ?

[henno]

At a guess, it's the "fairly taking your stance" part that is all the difference.

[3oneday]

What about a practice putting stroke ?

I've done this :oops: no penalty as such, apart from the fact you count the hit and play it where it finished !

[henno]

What if your ball marker is still behind the ball? Any penalty (possible alignment aid?), or proceed as normal?

[Eag's]

Good question henno.

[3oneday]

Chances are slim you'd be taking a practice stroke with the marker behind the ball, IMHO anyway. But I would say you keep playing from where it finishes. Couldn't quote a rule though, it's a feel thing ;)

[Daves]

is there ?

13-2. Improving Lie, Area of Intended Stance or Swing, or Line
of Play
A player must not improve or allow to be improved:
• the position or lie of his ball,
• the area of his intended stance or swing,
• his line of play or a reasonable extension of that line beyond the
hole, or
• the area in which he is to drop or place a ball,
by any of the following actions:
• pressing a club on the ground,
• moving, bending or breaking anything growing or fixed (including
immovable obstructions and objects defining out of bounds),
• creating or eliminating irregularities of surface,
• removing or pressing down sand, loose soil, replaced divots or
other cut turf placed in position, or
• removing dew, frost or water.
However, the player incurs no penalty if the action occurs:
• in grounding the club lightly when addressing the ball,
• in fairly taking his stance,
• in making a stroke or the backward movement of his club for a
stroke and the stroke is made,
• in creating or eliminating irregularities of surface within the teeing
ground (Rule 11-1) or in removing dew, frost or water from the
teeing ground, or
• on the putting green in removing sand and loose soil or in repairing
damage (Rule 16-1).
Exception: Ball in hazard – see Rule 13-4.

[Johnny Canuck]

What about a practice putting stroke ?


I've done this :oops: no penalty as such, apart from the fact you count the hit and play it where it finished !


What if your ball marker is still behind the ball? Any penalty (possible alignment aid?), or proceed as normal?

It's ok guys, I think I can handle this one.

If you hit the ball on a practice putting stroke, you MUST replace the ball to where it was, under a penalty of a stroke. If you don't, you are playing from the wrong place, two strokes.

As you never addressed the ball, you didn't make a stroke at it, hence the need to replace. It would be the same as if you kicked your ball in the bush, accidentally.

Three should have been DQ'ed in doing what he did. He signed an incorrect card.

The alignment aid will not come into play as you were not using it as such. You did not intend to make a stoke on the ball, so that marker would not have been used to gain any advantage.

I'm pretty sure of this. When I am done with the Ziggy threads, I'll look it up to confirm.

[AndyP]

When I am done with the Ziggy threads, I'll look it up to confirm.What's this? Am I missing something?

[Johnny Canuck]

At a guess, it's the "fairly taking your stance" part that is all the difference.

You can take your stance, but must do it in the "least intrusive" way. If backing into a bush, a branch snaps, you should not be penalised, unless there is reasonable evidence that it was done intentionally or it was obviously not the least intrusive way into the shot.

[terrys]

I've played with a guy who thinks NPR is Nicest Point of Relief, rather than Nearest Point of Relief. I pick him up on it every time because he gives me the shits.

[Daves]

I've played with a guy who thinks NPR is Nicest Point of Relief, rather than Nearest Point of Relief. I pick him up on it every time because he gives me the shits.

That would have to be one of the most abused rules in golf. How many pick up the ball (without marking the spot) before they work out the NPR?.

[Johnny Canuck]

That would have to be one of the most abused rules in golf. How many pick up the ball (without marking the spot) before they work out the NPR?.


Too many!

In a similar situation, a guy in our group went into the water on the first last Sat. I didn't see it, so I couldn't comment, but the others in the group were amazed at the beautiful spot he must have crossed the hazard line. Just ahead of the trees, in the short grass, incredible luck!

[mike]

I saw somebody move a leaf from behind his ball and the ball moved. He looked at me and I said not to worry, I didn't see a thing.

We were playing matchplay and he ended up winning that hole.

[Johnny Canuck]

I saw somebody move a leaf from behind his ball and the ball moved. He looked at me and I said not to worry, I didn't see a thing.

We were playing matchplay and he ended up winning that hole.

I agree with that Mike, fair call, good sportsmanship.

I let a guy re-drop in a match play final a few years ago, on the 16th, when he got a horrible lie when taking relief from a drain.

Technically, we both should have been DQ'd, but who was going to call it?

[mike]

I've seen plenty of times where a player's ball has moved on the green after they've addressed it. I disregard it because it's a stupid rule.

[Johnny Canuck]

It is my most hated rule in golf. It doesn't help that I play a course that gets very windy either. I tend to never look close enough to be put in the situation where I would have to call someone.

[markTHEblake]

I think you can rake a bunker prior to playing your shot. As long as you do not do it to test the condition, alter your stance etc.

looked into that before, cos i got pulled up on it, when i picked up a rake from one end of the bunker and smoothed my footprint over before going to where my ball was on the other side.

the ruling in the decisions was clear - cant do it.

[Rusty]

woo - some doozies in here. search rules.

bunkers - per PeteyD and Mo. other cases - it gets interesting when rake chucked in, bounces and hits and moves ball. or say moving sand on backswing.
ball moving - Aussie Golf Digest did a good summary recently. moves prior to commencing backswing - if caused by you, move back to original position, +1, away you go. after backswing commenced and swing not stopped, continue to hit the ball. +1. stopped backswing - move ball back to original position, +1, away you go.
on putting surface - do what Jack did after being penalised early in his career - learn to never ground your putter. no problem then.

remember - with provisionals, can't be played once going forward to look for a ball. (happened at the Champs). becomes the ball in play, even if original ball is then found.

my2c

[markTHEblake]

remember - with provisionals, can't be played once going forward to look for a ball. (happened at the Champs). becomes the ball in play, even if original ball is then found.

you sure? you can keep playing the provisional up until you reach where the other ball might be. its a speed of play issue.

[Johnny Canuck]

i think he was meaning that you can't go look for a ball and then come back and hit a provisional, while the others still look.

[Ferrins]

I've noticed a trend with people picking up the ball to identify it as theirs then tossing back down. I have never seen this done on the fairway but I have seen it happen in the rough, plenty of times.

[Rusty]

looked into that before, cos i got pulled up on it, when i picked up a rake from one end of the bunker and smoothed my footprint over before going to where my ball was on the other side.

the ruling in the decisions was clear - cant do it.


how long ago? may have changed since then. Rules 13-2 Improving Lie, Stance, etc & 13-4 Ball in Hazard; Prohibitions + Decisions.

basically gotta be careful if raking in bunker before hand not to improve lie or stance + not be seen to be testing the condition of the bunker. what PeterD and Moe said.


i think he was meaning that you can't go look for a ball and then come back and hit a provisional, while the others still look.

um, whoops, yup, that's what i meant. to clarify - can't put a provisional in play once going forward to look for your original. (Rule 27-2a, Decision 27-2a/1.5)

& yes, if you have correctly put one into play, can (and should) keep playing it until it reaches "the place where the original ball is likely to be" (Rule 27-2b).


here's an interesting one - you've got a bunker in front of you. you're out of the bunker. you're worried about chunking it into the bunker. you see someone's footprints in the bunker. they're inline between your ball and the hole. can you rake the footprints before playing your ball?


no, improves the line of play (Rule 13-2, Decision 13-2/28 )




another one - now you're in the bunker with a huge wall in front of you. you decide to play out backwards. the bunker you were in and your footprints are now inline between where your ball is and the hole. you're worried about chunking it into the bunker, back into your old footprints. can you rake the bunker before playing the ball that is sitting out of the bunker.


yes Rule 13-4 exception 2 - allowed to smooth bunker without restriction after hitting ball out. & Decision 13-4/37.5

[sms316]

I've seen plenty of times where a player's ball has moved on the green after they've addressed it. I disregard it because it's a stupid rule.
Do they even have rules in FNQ?

[mike]

Not many.

[sms316]

Doesn't matter what rules they have up there. You can't pick and choose which ones you want to enforce.

[Hux]

A few of these rules are great examples of how to slow play down.


So you have a rake at one end to retrieve and you are at the opposite end. Practicality says you go in retrieve it, rake and then walk down and hit your ball. Anyone that calls someone for doing that has to be taking anal pills. You can test the surface in the area you are playing simply by taking your stance, so raking is hardly testing the surface.

If I read some of these quoted rules, when I am under a tree I can even move the sticks under my feet as it improves my stance...well **** me I am not going to fall arse over just because there is a 2" lump of wood under my feet.

Accidental movements are hardly something I am going to call people on. Shit happens and we are all playing for fun not sheep stations.

Cheating - ie deliberate acts to improve a result - yep call away.

[mike]

You can't pick and choose which ones you want to enforce.
I do.

[Ned]

What do people do when they see a player inadvertently doing something that isn't allowed under the rules of golf ?

Do they leave it slide, take up with the player at the time of the issue or do they choose an appropriate time to let the player know of what they were doing wrong ?

[Russell]

What do people do when they see a player inadvertently doing something that isn't allowed under the rules of golf ?

Do they leave it slide, take up with the player at the time of the issue or do they choose an appropriate time to let the player know of what they were doing wrong ?
friend of mine played with a new member today who just got his hcapp .monthly medal stroke.after the new member put 2 ob was playing 8 from greenside bunker.my friend watched him ground his club.only after the new member had finished the hole for an eleven did he tell him about the rules of grounding a club in a hazard.
new member was very apolagetic and very thankfull for my friends relaying of the rules (and not calling penalty)
new member now knows the rule and had an enjoyable day with his 84 net

good result allround

[WBennett]

THe ball moving on the green at address has issues.

Whilst playing cored greens, the ball has a tendancy to 'fall' into the core holes - if a player is addressing it or not.

Its bloody harsh to penalise someone because the piece on grass the ball is on collapses due to maintenance procedures being undertaken on the green.

I've seen it and let it ride before

[mike]

friend of mine played with a new member today who just got his hcapp .monthly medal stroke.after the new member put 2 ob was playing 8 from greenside bunker.my friend watched him ground his club.only after the new member had finished the hole for an eleven did he tell him about the rules of grounding a club in a hazard.
new member was very apolagetic and very thankfull for my friends relaying of the rules (and not calling penalty)
new member now knows the rule and had an enjoyable day with his 84 net

good result allround
Good call by your mate. Have to look after the newbies.

My son (16 at the time) started playing about 3 years ago. He struggled to play to 27. One day he was playing in a comp with a rules nazi. Son was having a good round, looked like hitting in the 80s. His 16th hole (hole #7 , index 1) he put his 3rd shot to an inch of the hole. In his excitement he walked up and tapped it in with the flag in. Nazi hit him with a 2 shot penalty. He was shattered. Next 2 holes he had an 8 and a 12.

Gotta look after the newbies.

[matty]

If I walk onto the tee of a par 3 and find myself between clubs how far can I go backwards to ensure a full swing? I thought there was only a short distance.

I played last week with a bloke who walked back ten meters. I didn't say anything as I wasn't sure/couldn't be bothered.

[cutter1]

Tee box is 2 club lengths deep. He played from outside the tee area. That shot should be ignored and he plays 3 from the correct place.

[markTHEblake]

how long ago? may have changed since then. Rules 13-2 Improving Lie, Stance, etc & 13-4 Ball in Hazard; Prohibitions + Decisions.

I am not seeing anything that supports that, Decision 13-4/0.5 seems pretty clear (highlighted in bold).

Q. What is meant by “test the condition of the hazard” in Rule 13-4a?

A. The term covers all actions by which the player could gain more information about the hazard than could be gained from taking his stance for the stroke to be made, bearing in mind that a certain amount of digging in with the feet in the sand or soil is permitted when taking the stance for a stroke.

Examples of actions that would not constitute testing the condition of the hazard include the following:

• digging in with the feet for a stance, including for a practice swing, anywhere in the hazard or in a similar hazard;
• placing an object, such as clubs or a rake, in the hazard;
• leaning on an object (other than a club) such as a rake while it is touching the ground in the hazard or water in a water hazard;
• touching the hazard with an object (other than a club) such as a towel (touching with a club would be a breach of Rule 13-4b); or
• marking the position of the ball with a tee or otherwise when proceeding under a Rule.

Examples of actions that would constitute testing the condition of the hazard in breach of Rule 13-4a include the following:

• digging in with the feet in excess of what would be done for a stance for a stroke or a practice swing;
• filling in footprints from a previous stance (e.g., when changing stance to make a different type of stroke);
• intentionally sticking an object, such as a rake, into sand or soil in the hazard or water in a water hazard (but see Rule 12-1);
• smoothing a bunker with a rake, a club or otherwise (but see Exception 2 to Rule 13-4);
• kicking the ground in the hazard or water in a water hazard; or
• touching the sand with a club when making a practice swing in the hazard or in a similar hazard (but see Exception 3 to Rule 13-4). (New)

[Hamo84]

Good call by your mate. Have to look after the newbies.

My son (16 at the time) started playing about 3 years ago. He struggled to play to 27. One day he was playing in a comp with a rules nazi. Son was having a good round, looked like hitting in the 80s. His 16th hole (hole #7 , index 1) he put his 3rd shot to an inch of the hole. In his excitement he walked up and tapped it in with the flag in. Nazi hit him with a 2 shot penalty. He was shattered. Next 2 holes he had an 8 and a 12.

Gotta look after the newbies.
I dont get it? What rule was broken there? You cant putt with the flag in?

[AndyP]

I dont get it? What rule was broken there? You cant putt with the flag in?If you are on the green you can definitely not hole the ball if the flag is in.

[Hamo84]

fair enough, well I guess thats one I have seen let slide and a lot of times.....

thanks for the clarification

[grandmasterb]

Good call by your mate. Have to look after the newbies.

My son (16 at the time) started playing about 3 years ago. He struggled to play to 27. One day he was playing in a comp with a rules nazi. Son was having a good round, looked like hitting in the 80s. His 16th hole (hole #7 , index 1) he put his 3rd shot to an inch of the hole. In his excitement he walked up and tapped it in with the flag in. Nazi hit him with a 2 shot penalty. He was shattered. Next 2 holes he had an 8 and a 12.

Gotta look after the newbies.

I had a similar thing happen once where a bloke i was playing with just missed an albatross, went up remove the flag and was holding it in one hand (whilst it was on the ground) and tapped in with the other.

He did it so quickly i couldn't even tell him to stop but what was even quicker what the old bloke we were playing with pinging him for doing it :roll:

[AndyP]

I had a similar thing happen once where a bloke i was playing with just missed an albatross, went up remove the flag and was holding it in one hand (whilst it was on the ground) and tapped in with the other.

He did it so quickly i couldn't even tell him to stop but what was even quicker what the old bloke we were playing with pinging him for doing it :roll:When did this happen? I believe it has been allowed for the last year or more.

[Ferrins]

You can remove the flag and be holding it while you tap in.

[PeteyD]

Yep you can be holding the flag when you putt. Just like you can have it tended whenever, not just when the ball is on the green.

[Johnny Canuck]

fair enough, well I guess thats one I have seen let slide and a lot of times.....

thanks for the clarification

you can putt with it in, you're only penalised two strokes if you hit it.

a guy at our club did it a few months back. had a 100+ foot putt and thought he had no chance of holing it, so he putt instead of waiting for one of his partners to remove the pin.

do you want to guess what happened next?


When did this happen? I believe it has been allowed for the last year or more.

a think at least two years, possibly even longer AP.

[cutter1]

A few of these rules are great examples of how to slow play down.


So you have a rake at one end to retrieve and you are at the opposite end. Practicality says you go in retrieve it, rake and then walk down and hit your ball. Anyone that calls someone for doing that has to be taking anal pills. You can test the surface in the area you are playing simply by taking your stance, so raking is hardly testing the surface.

If I read some of these quoted rules, when I am under a tree I can even move the sticks under my feet as it improves my stance...well **** me I am not going to fall arse over just because there is a 2" lump of wood under my feet.

Accidental movements are hardly something I am going to call people on. Shit happens and we are all playing for fun not sheep stations.

Cheating - ie deliberate acts to improve a result - yep call away.

Hux, I agree with you that a lot of the rules are time wasters and seem petty, but, they are the rules of the game we love. If you want to play the game, play by the rules, because they are the same for everyone.

[grandmasterb]

When did this happen? I believe it has been allowed for the last year or more.

About 6 months ago.


You can remove the flag and be holding it while you tap in.


Yep you can be holding the flag when you putt. Just like you can have it tended whenever, not just when the ball is on the green.

Pretty sure the rules says that you can be holding it but its not allowed to be touching the ground???

[Daves]

Yes, but you can't be leaning on it i.e. using it for support. Many seem to interpret that if the flag is touching the green then you are using it for support. Hard to argue with, rightly or wrongly.

[LarryLong]

Life's too short.

I'm usually too busy foot-wedging my ball out of the bushes to bother watching other players.

[Daves]

A few of these rules are great examples of how to slow play down.


So you have a rake at one end to retrieve and you are at the opposite end. Practicality says you go in retrieve it, rake and then walk down and hit your ball. Anyone that calls someone for doing that has to be taking anal pills. You can test the surface in the area you are playing simply by taking your stance, so raking is hardly testing the surface.

If I read some of these quoted rules, when I am under a tree I can even move the sticks under my feet as it improves my stance...well **** me I am not going to fall arse over just because there is a 2" lump of wood under my feet.

Accidental movements are hardly something I am going to call people on. Shit happens and we are all playing for fun not sheep stations.

Cheating - ie deliberate acts to improve a result - yep call away.

I trust you have briefed your HP guys with the same relaxed view of the "rules" Hux:mrgreen:

The problem with not at least pointing out the potential rule breaches is that you just further embed the rules ignorance out there and set them up for a fall when they next get paired with a rule nazi.:roll: I am continually amazed at the how some interpret even the most basic and regularly used rules e.g. NPRs and hazard options.

[AndyP]

You can definitely have it touching the ground, but I can't find anything about disallowing the use of the flagstick to support yourself. This seems discriminatory against fat people or skinny people in windy conditions.

[PeteyD]

17 1/5 in the decision book says it is allowed to hold the flagstick while putting.

[AndyP]

17 1/5 in the decision book says it is allowed to hold the flagstick while putting.
We must be viewing the same page at the same time. There is nothing there about support though.

It's a good thread. I let a bit slide, but nothing for myself knowingly. Perhaps I should be sending PMs to those that have made indiscretions.

[Daves]

I was told by our Course Director that rule 14-3 applies.

[Hux]

I trust you have briefed your HP guys with the same relaxed view of the "rules" Hux:mrgreen:

The problem with not at least pointing out the potential rule breaches is that you just further embed the rules ignorance out there and set them up for a fall when they next get paired with a rule nazi.:roll: I am continually amazed at the how some interpret even the most basic and regularly used rules e.g. NPRs and hazard options.

They're not mine - ask ddasey about their state of relaxation on rules :shock: However let me say they always have the power of discretion....fits my point above!

But yes I work in a rules based organisation and have a reasonable understanding on the ones I need, however I can also tell you that no one knows everything!!

The thing with calling rules breaches is that we see here some quite disparate interpretations on rules amongst people who are reading rules and interpreting decisions. Which are right...stands to reason that at least 50% of conflicting views are wrong.

So call someone for a penalty on a debateable point or something done in good faith and all you will end up with is someone who thinks you are a prick with nothing else to do bar be the golf course lawyer. Personally I deal daily with conflict - don't need to take it home or on the course.

How and when you chose to educate someone on golf rules would probably have a lot to do with how it is received.

[Fishman Dan]

We have preferred lies at our course. Have had for ages. My ball pulled up 6 feet short of a water hazard (mown grass, decent lie), but I improved it. I then realised my ball was about 2 feet inside the red painted line (worn out - only realised the paint 5m to my left).

Not happy Jan. As easy as it would have been to 'let it slide', I pointed it out to one of the guys in my group - he had no idea until I told him.

The fact the area was mown and I had a decent lie.... I didn't even stop to think that I was in the hazard.

[mike]

Something that is very common is the gimme putt. If it's an inch or two I don't have a problem but some people stretch it way too far. I've missed too many 6 inch putts over the years to consider them a gimme.

[Fishman Dan]

Something that is very common is the gimme putt. If it's an inch or two I don't have a problem but some people stretch it way too far. I've missed too many 6 inch putts over the years to consider them a gimme.

I've never had, or ever given a gimme putt. I didn't think they existed anymore (rightfully).

[Sydney Hacker]

Something that is very common is the gimme putt. If it's an inch or two I don't have a problem but some people stretch it way too far. I've missed too many 6 inch putts over the years to consider them a gimme.

I saw one of the better players in our club miss a 2 inch putt the other day. The fact he left it an inch and a half short makes it more embrassing for him !

[mike]

I've never had, or ever given a gimme putt. I didn't think they existed anymore (rightfully).Happens all the time up here. I always putt out myself but if I'm in a group giving away gimmes I'll just go with the flow.

[Fishman Dan]

I saw one of the better players in our club miss a 2 inch putt the other day. The fact he left it an inch and a half short makes it more embrassing for him !

When I was playing at Fox Hills I was putting on very heavily (poorly) cored and sanded greens. My ball was sitting in a very large hole about the same distance away. When I went to tap it in, I effectively ran my putter across the top of the ball. I was very embarrassed but the game went on.

I later thought about it though - the ball never moved from its position, the shot didn't necessarily count as a stroke.

[mike]

I saw one of the better players in our club miss a 2 inch putt the other day. The fact he left it an inch and a half short makes it more embrassing for him !
I saw Adam Scott miss one that was about an inch. (years ago when he and Badds hit the scene) He went to tap it in and missed it. Air swing.

[Sydney Hacker]

Happens all the time up here. I always putt out myself but if I'm in a group giving away gimmes I'll just go with the flow.

Really, that surprises me and I would probably insist on everyone putting out.

Even though it would hurt me in the end by missing short prick of putts !

[mike]

I later thought about it though - the ball never moved from its position, the shot didn't necessarily count as a stroke.
Yes it does.

[Sydney Hacker]

I saw Adam Scott miss one that was about an inch. (years ago when he and Badds hit the scene) He went to tap it in and missed it. Air swing.

This guy went to drop the back of his putter on the ball to tap it in. It missed on the way down and moved the ball about half and inch when it bounced back up.

Not bad considering he was putting for eagle on a short par 4 and walked off with Par !

[Fishman Dan]

Actually - I'm mistaken. I gave Coffs Hacker about a 5 footer at Grafton when we played our matchplay. It was a pretty straight, simple putt.... so I offered it to him if he gave me mine - a 3 footer on the same line. :lol:

[markTHEblake]

About 6 months ago.

I can guarantee the rule was amended to allow holding the flag while putting more than 30 years ago, cos i had this discussion with one of my mentors when i first started playing, and he said " it was changed ages ago" and added that some people still thought it wasn't allowed.

Seems that 3 decades later, not much has changed ,even though most people playing under that old rule would be dead by now.


Pretty sure the rules says that you can be holding it but its not allowed to be touching the ground???
you have mixed that up with getting someone else to indicate the line of the putt.

[Fishman Dan]

Yes it does.

Even of the ball doesn't move from it's original location (it really didn't move a dimple)?

Not fussed - I put it behind me quickly enough (I was probably already a thousand over).

[mike]

Still an air swing Dan.

[Courty]

Still an air swing Dan.

+1.

I've personally seen this happen also. It definitely counts as a stroke.

[CobraSS]

Even of the ball doesn't move from it's original location (it really didn't move a dimple)?

Not fussed - I put it behind me quickly enough (I was probably already a thousand over).

yes, you made a stroke at it.

[Johnny Canuck]

I was told by our Course Director that rule 14-3 applies.

If he reads the decision that Petey and Andy have referred to, there is nothing left for interpretation.

Tell him he is wrong.

[mike]

2009 W.A. OzGolf Champ
Shouldn't you have one of those wanky merit bars?

[AndyP]

Pffft.
http://www.ozgolf.net/images/MeritBars/2009WAChamp-JohnnyCanuck.jpg

[Daves]

If he reads the decision that Petey and Andy have referred to, there is nothing left for interpretation.

Tell him he is wrong.

I think he might then refer to decision 14-3/9.

[Johnny Canuck]

Pffft.
http://www.ozgolf.net/images/MeritBars/2009WAChamp-JohnnyCanuck.jpg

Cheers.


I think he might then refer to decision 14-3/9.

14-3/9 refers to using a club to steady oneself, nothing else.

The other decision refers directly to the flag.

[cutter1]

Something that is very common is the gimme putt. If it's an inch or two I don't have a problem but some people stretch it way too far. I've missed too many 6 inch putts over the years to consider them a gimme.

Only in match play can you concede a putt, in any other stroke, or modified stroke (stableford) or par event, there is no such thing as a gimme.

[Fishman Dan]

Still an air swing Dan.


+1.

I've personally seen this happen also. It definitely counts as a stroke.


yes, you made a stroke at it.

Geez fellers. I get the message. I counted it as a shot on the day, there's no harm done here!

[3oneday]

I cheated on Satdy.



Used a mates driver on the last in a Vardon, pured it, buying one.




Penalty ??? About $300 :lol:

[mike]

disgraceful

[WBennett]

How long til its in the Pro Shop?

[3oneday]

How long til its in the Pro Shop?

Quite a while I'd say, the Pro Shop here is worserer than ebay is ;)

[grandmasterb]

I cheated on Satdy.



Used a mates driver on the last in a Vardon, pured it, buying one.




Penalty ??? About $300 :lol:

Oh do tell, specs???

[3oneday]

Nothing exciting, just a stock standard R9 460.

[grandmasterb]

Nothing exciting, just a stock standard R9 460.

Never picked you to be on the R9 wagon 3!!!

[3oneday]

Nah, taylormade is invariably crap, except I currently have 7 (about to be 8) of their sticks in my bag ;)

[grandmasterb]

Nah, taylormade is invariably crap, except I currently have 7 (about to be 8) of their sticks in my bag ;)

WHOA and i was ashamed to have one my bag haha

[Johnny Canuck]

Nothing exciting, just a stock standard R9 460.

I've heard the "420 shits all over the 460" :wink:.

[3oneday]

Popups add performance.

[Johnny Canuck]

Isn't the 460 the red headed step sister?

[3oneday]

Wasn't looking ;)

[grandmasterb]

Isn't the 460 the red headed step sister?

If thats the case then its perfect to slap around the course :mrgreen:

[Rusty]

I am not seeing anything that supports that, Decision 13-4/0.5 seems pretty clear (highlighted in bold).

Q. What is meant by “test the condition of the hazard” in Rule 13-4a?

A. The term covers all actions by which the player could gain more information about the hazard than could be gained from taking his stance for the stroke to be made, bearing in mind that a certain amount of digging in with the feet in the sand or soil is permitted when taking the stance for a stroke.

Examples of actions that would not constitute testing the condition of the hazard include the following:

• digging in with the feet for a stance, including for a practice swing, anywhere in the hazard or in a similar hazard;
• placing an object, such as clubs or a rake, in the hazard;
• leaning on an object (other than a club) such as a rake while it is touching the ground in the hazard or water in a water hazard;
• touching the hazard with an object (other than a club) such as a towel (touching with a club would be a breach of Rule 13-4b); or
• marking the position of the ball with a tee or otherwise when proceeding under a Rule.

Examples of actions that would constitute testing the condition of the hazard in breach of Rule 13-4a include the following:

• digging in with the feet in excess of what would be done for a stance for a stroke or a practice swing;
• filling in footprints from a previous stance (e.g., when changing stance to make a different type of stroke);
• intentionally sticking an object, such as a rake, into sand or soil in the hazard or water in a water hazard (but see Rule 12-1);
• smoothing a bunker with a rake, a club or otherwise (but see Exception 2 to Rule 13-4);
• kicking the ground in the hazard or water in a water hazard; or
• touching the sand with a club when making a practice swing in the hazard or in a similar hazard (but see Exception 3 to Rule 13-4). (New)


seems unambiguous. no raking before playing the shot.

come to think of it i vaguely remember 1 or 2 pros being penalised for their caddy raking before they've played their shot??

[Tomo]

I turned a blind eye to a young 12 year old bloke in our group yesterday.

Marked his ball on the green with a tee (first no-no) which was near to my line so I asked him to change it with a regular marker.

So he picked up the tee and put the marker down without replacing the ball.

Blind eye turned.

Two holes later the club throwing, F Bombing and ball throwing started after bad putts. (ball throwing into the rough after putting out).

Then the mathematic errors started and he needed to be reminded of his correct score several times.

To be honest he became a pain in the arse and I will make every effort not to play with him again.

When we got back to the clubhouse we discover he has won C grade by a shot.........

[3oneday]

Why can't you use a tee ?

[Tomo]

I was always told you couldnt use a tee or a pitch mark repairer as it could be deemed you were testiing the green.

I may be wrong, but I asked him to change to a normal marker as the tee was in my line.

[Tex]

You can use a tee.

[Ferrins]

Pro's can't but amateurs can.

[razaar]

There is no penalty for using a tee to mark your ball on the green, but it is against the recommendations of best practice for marking the ball as per the Note following Rule 20.1.

[Tomo]

Cheers lads.

Always a font of information.

He still however didnt re-mark his ball correctly.

[Ferrins]

I use a tee when I play with Ray, as he has a tendency to pocket my coins.

[PeteyD]

Reminds you of the caddy from Happy Gilmore does he?

[razaar]

I use a tee when I play with Ray, as he has a tendency to pocket my coins.
Never seen you with a coin or money, whisper (never shouts).:wink:

[Ferrins]

Shandy for you, diet Fab for Shaun and lemon lime and bitters for Damien.

[Ferrins]

Pop up protection by running a strip of black electrical tape across the top of the crown.

Borrow a demo wood from the proshop and play a pearler of a round only to be DQed by a rules nazi:(

Q. Is it permissible to add tape or gauze to any part of the club?

A. During the round, the playing characteristics of the club may not be changed – see Rule 4-2a.

Prior to the player’s stipulated round, tape or gauze may be applied to the grip of the club provided the application of such materials does not create a waist or bulge – see Appendix II; Part 3.

Tape applied to the club head or shaft is an external attachment which renders the club non-conforming (see Appendix II; Part 1a). The following are exceptions to the prohibition against external attachments provided such applications are made prior to the player’s stipulated round:
Lead tape may be applied to the head or shaft of the club for the purpose of adding weight (see Decisions 4-1/4 and 4-2/0.5)
Tape may be applied to the shaft of the club to protect it.
Decals may be applied to the shaft for identification purposes. These decals may also be covered by clear tape.

[mike]

I don't get it. You can use lead tape (which would change the club's playing characteristics ) but not protective tape (which won't)?

All golf rules are stupid.

[Johnny Canuck]

Champs weekend on the Friday. A very small, still growing plant/shrub was bent out of the way so that clear contact could he made with the ball.

It had no impact on anything, so there was no need to call it.

[MegaWatty]

Ruling, Canuck.

[Johnny Canuck]

What do you mean, improving your lie?

[MegaWatty]

Is that it?

[MegaWatty]

You can attempt to take your regular stance though, can't you?

If a branch snaps, accidentally or otherwise, you're penalised as well, right?

[Johnny Canuck]

You can take your normal stance, you just have to take it in the least intrusive way. You aren't penalised if something breaks while this is occurring.

I was referring to bending a plant by hand when it was directly behind your ball.

[MegaWatty]

Oh. You love your rules.

I've got to find a more enjoyable and easier to read version of the rules. Is the decisions book the way to go gents?

[Courty]

iPhone app is the go (searchable).

[MegaWatty]

Already Got it.

[Johnny Canuck]

The decisions book is interesting. I had an illustrated book that I got from the library a while back, which made things easier.

Online rules quizzes are a fun way to learn.

[MegaWatty]

The iPhone app has a rules quiz section. I reckon I have a rules knowledge of about 7-8/10. No pop ups.

[Marto65]

Isn't waiving a rule (not calling) a penalty on yourself?

[markTHEblake]

Only if you tell someone!

[Johnny Canuck]

Correct. However, in the situation we were in, social betting game, player out of the hole, not a comp, it would have been a dickhead move to call it.

[markTHEblake]

would have been a dickhead move to call it.

true, but consider this

Golf is the only game in which precise knowledge of the rules can earn one a reputation for bad sportsmanship
-Patrick Campbell

[adlo]

Champs weekend on the Friday. A very small, still growing plant/shrub was bent out of the way so that clear contact could he made with the ball.

It had no impact on anything, so there was no need to call it.

You guys didn't tell me that Kenny Perry was at the champs on Friday!

Why didn't he hang around?

[LarryLong]

Isn't waiving a rule (not calling) a penalty on yourself?

Last time I waived a rule, the other guy agreed to waive the rule that said I had to penalise myself for waiving the rule.

I thought about making him take a penalty for that, but I let it slide.


I don't get it. You can use lead tape (which would change the club's playing characteristics ) but not protective tape (which won't)?

All golf rules are stupid.

^^
Agreed. To be completely honest, the rules of golf are in need of a major overhaul. Most of them are ridiculous.

[AndyP]

If the ball moves a nanometre when addressing it and a video camera picks it up, you deserve a penalty, as you have clearly improved your position. You may as well just place the ball in the hole.

[adlo]

:lol: Gold!

[markTHEblake]

The sarcasm is awesome Andyp, So where should the line be drawn on a 'ball moved' penalty?

Mike, I agree a lot of golf rules seem stupid, but there is a reason behind all of them, and these reasons are not explained in the rules themselves. Not allowing tape on the crown of the driver head seems irrational, but I think it is another issue of drawing a line somewhere - none at all is the line. You would think that the Golf Pro would have known that and he is really being a nob trying to protect a demo club anyway.

Perhaps one day you put a bunch of tape on the face of a driver, and hit some balls with it. What happens?
Thats why you cant put tape on a clubhead ( I guess )

[AndyP]

The sarcasm is awesome Andyp, So where should the line be drawn on a 'ball moved' penalty?It's hard, because the rule has to be black and white. But there are too many situations that you can be penalised for where you really aren't getting any advantage. It would be nice if we could stick to the "vibe" of the rules at our level.

The situation with the tour player (Westwood?) that got done for his ball moving was embarrassing for the sport. The fact that they only changed the rule such that you won't get disqualified, doesn't make it any better. If it's not visible to the eye, then why should you be penalised? I'm sure when we place a ball after marking it isn't in the exact same spot ever, it's just not visible.

[MegaWatty]

So you're talking Mabo AndyP. I like it.

It was Paddy, not Westy.

[WBennett]

Having an Iphone on (http://www.thegolfforum.com/index.php?s=&showtopic=4512&view=findpost&p=125348) during a round of golf is a breach of the rules anyway...

[MegaWatty]

Why?

[AndyP]

You were meant to click on the link, MW.

My iPod is fine though.

[MegaWatty]

Oh.

I would debate that rule because it doesn't give you the details of where you actually are and it is also delayed information.

[markTHEblake]

Having an Iphone on (http://www.thegolfforum.com/index.php?s=&showtopic=4512&view=findpost&p=125348) during a round of golf is a breach of the rules anyway...

we have discussed this before, there is a relevant decision in the rules somewhere that talks about smartphones as GPS, and says they are OK.

[MegaWatty]

The issue however would be that it now has a compass and can measure inclines.

The weather part is not an issue as it cannot measure temperature nor wind speed or direction.

[WBennett]

To quote Thommo, who quoted the R&A


When the Local Rule is in effect, a distance measuring application may be used, provided the specific application is restricted to “distance only” and the device does not have any other “non-conforming” features. This is the case even if these other features are not being used. As above, the Rules on advice-related communications (including the use of the internet) still apply.

Conclusion
The R&A and USGA have no intention to permit the use of electronic devices to go beyond the current Rules and interpretations. This means that distance-measuring devices and applications will be limited to distance information only. If a device that is being used for distance-measuring purposes has any additional features, all such features must conform to the Rules of Golf.

So having an iphone ON is an instant disqualification, as you MAY use the other features. Just more proof that the rules may need updating to keep with the times

[andigold]

Not quite correct Benno, if you use an iPhone as a distance measuring device then you've breached the rules but if you use an iPhone to check footy scores you're OK.

Agree it needs to change though, a stipulation that if it has Internet capability that it is disabled (flight mode) should be enough.

[markTHEblake]

So having an iphone ON is an instant disqualification, as you MAY use the other features.

Absolutely Wrong. Using an iphone/smartphone is allowed, the R&A and USGA have said so.
http://www.usga.org/news/2009/November/USGA-R-A-Joint-Statement-On-Electronic-Devices/

[Moe Norman]

it's allowed Blakey, but not if you're using it as a distance measuring device - thus making the rule completely retarded.

You can use a smartphone as much as you like, but use it to measure distance (legally) and it's a DQ due to the other features of the phone.

This is pretty clear in the link you posted.

[TheTrueReview]

I think the R & A/USGA statement is not as clear as first thought.

My interpretation is that it prohibits the use of a device that has a present capability of doing something non-conforming; eg. gauging or measuring other conditions that might affect play (e.g., wind speed, gradient, temperature). By that I mean the phone has apps installed at that time (therefore, a capability) that can perform the non-conforming functions (irrespective of whether they can be turned off), the phone must not be used during play. Contrast that to a situation of a smart phone which, has the ability to download apps which would make it non-conforming, but those apps have are not installed at the time of play. IMO the latter situation would be fine.

Given that golf is a largely self regulated game, I can see sense in the "it doesn't matter if you can turn them off" position.

[markTHEblake]

You can use a smartphone as much as you like, but use it to measure distance (legally) and it's a DQ due to the other features of the phone.
There are several commentaries online that discuss this section of the announcement in detail and they dont agree.
The phone itself does not have the capability of measuring gradient, wind direction etc.
See article here: http://gps.about.com/od/gpsproductoverview/a/smartphone-golf-gps-rules.htm

here is the section from the R&A/USGA

3. Multi-functional devices such as mobile phones, PDAs, etc (i.e., devices that are primarily communication devices, but which may have other potential uses) may be used as follows:
· The device may be used for any non-golfing purpose (e.g., as a communication tool to phone, text or email), subject to any club/course regulations and the rules on accessing advice-related matters – see Decision 14-3/16.
· When the local rule is in effect, a distance-measuring application may be used, provided the specific application is restricted to “distance only” and the device does not have any other “non-conforming” features. This is the case even if these other features are not being used. As above, the rules on advice-related communications (including the use of the internet) still apply.

[LarryLong]

I can't really understand why they would bother banning devices capable of measuring wind speed, temperature or gradient if they allow something that tells you how far you are from the hole.

[WBennett]

The NSWLGA has banned distance measuring devices from mobile phones.

I asked for a clarification off our golf manager 3 months ago and they still don't know what the answer is.

[Dotty]

The NSWLGA has banned distance measuring devices from mobile phones.

I asked for a clarification off our golf manager 3 months ago and they still don't know what the answer is.
Didn't the NSWLGA disappear last year, with the merger of men's and women's amateur golf bodies?


Or do you mean the NSW Local Government Association, that only governs the golf rules for public servants? ;)

[WBennett]

Dotty - maybe. I was going off the words of the local Rules Nazi who informed me it was in their tournament rules at Christmas...

[Moe Norman]

There are several commentaries online that discuss this section of the announcement in detail and they dont agree.
The phone itself does not have the capability of measuring gradient, wind direction etc.
See article here: http://gps.about.com/od/gpsproductoverview/a/smartphone-golf-gps-rules.htm

here is the section from the R&A/USGA

you just proved yourself wrong with your own quote.

When the local rule is in effect, a distance-measuring application may be used, provided the specific application is restricted to “distance only” and the device does not have any other “non-conforming” features.

[markTHEblake]

It comes down to defining what are the non conforming features on a smart phone?
A web browser or internet access that could be used to lookup weather reports or wind speed etc, is not non-conforming.

Did you read the article I posted, the guy from the USGA does not agree with you.

[henno]

Define "capability"? If you disable wi-fi/3g does that disable capability? If not, what about older phones that have GPRS/WAP capabilities but do not have the service enabled by the operator? What about ipods in that case? They have the "capability" to be teathered to a portable wifi access point in your other pocket. Let's see how deep the rabbit hole goes, Alice.

[markTHEblake]

capability does not make a smart phone device non-confirming.

eg. A mobile phone that can make calls. If you call your mum to tell her you will be late for dinner. No penalty.
If you call your swing coach for tips, thats a penalty.

Thus, GPRS/WAP feature is not non-confirming. An Application that's specific purpose is to measure wind speed or gradient will be, and as far as i know there is no such application.

[henno]

That answers my next question entirely (and was the expected response). So in that case, iPhones are fine: they have the capability to facilitate a rules breach, but as long as you are not using them to do so there should not be an issue.

[WBennett]

As my smartphone does not have an inbuilt compass, is then legal?

[Johnny Canuck]

That isn't the case Henwah.

Rangefinders that have the capability to measure slope cannot be used, even if the function is turned off.

[Ferrins]

So I can't tape a smart phone to my driver?

[Yossarian]

Adlo and I allowed someone to tee of in front of the markers.

[rubin]

Adlo and I allowed someone to tee of in front of the markers.

wouldn't you pull them up for it before they hit the ball?

[henno]

That isn't the case Henwah.

Rangefinders that have the capability to measure slope cannot be used, even if the function is turned off.

So then Blakey's wrong; capability alone dictates whether or not the device is illegal.

I don't like the grey area here. Like I initially said, who determines "capability".

[WBennett]

So then Blakey's wrong;

That has NEVER happened before! :)

[markTHEblake]

I don't like the grey area here. Like I initially said, who determines "capability".

The article i quoted explains.

Does the iphone have a specific feature to measure slope?

[AndyP]

So by henno's example of tethering for an iPod, I'm DQ'd for using it during a round even though I don't use it for distance measurement?

[markTHEblake]

That depends whether it has a non conforming feature or not.

[MegaWatty]

The article i quoted explains.

Does the iphone have a specific feature to measure slope?

It can measure gradients but you'd need to download a specific app. It does have a compass though which I've read is not legal as it can be used to work out the direction of the wind.

[WBennett]

Exactly - you can use a compass, an inbuilt feature of an iphone that can't be turned off.

Luckily my Android does not have a compass inbuilt or as an app!

[AndyP]

Blakey, the fact that it has the capability to have the feature seems to be the issue, not the feature itself.

I'm using my iPod regardless, because I'm following the vibe of the rules.

[markTHEblake]

It does have a compass though which I've read is not legal as it can be used to work out the direction of the wind.

Yes thats right, a compass is specifically listed as a device that you cant use.


Exactly - you can use a compass, an inbuilt feature of an iphone that can't be turned off.

In that case the Iphone is non-conforming to be used as a DMD, and that would be the only reason. The blanket statement that any device is nonconforming because it is a smartphone is wrong.


Blakey, the fact that it has the capability to have the feature seems to be the issue, not the feature itself.

If you don't have non-conforming applications on your iphone/pda/smartphone then it is ok to use, even if it does have the hardware to support such applications.

[Yossarian]

wouldn't you pull them up for it before they hit the ball?

Not if we didn't notice till after.

[henno]

Blakey, I think we're arguing the same thing here. At what point does a capability become a feature? If it comes pre-installed on the device? If a third-party app is installed? (How do you check each phone, and this would be similar to turning off the slope etc on range finders.) If an app simply exists in the wild? (How would you even prove this.) I'm sure that given a bit of time and the motivation one could write their own app that acted like a compas, GPS, whatever, that used a series of vibrations to communicate basic distances which wouldn't even require the device to be taken out of the pocket.

I'm not arguing for or against smart phones here; I simply don't like the vague wording used when determining what's legal and what isn't. It very much open to interpretation as it's currently written.

[mike]

Not that I care ... but ... if you have an iPhone in your bag, switched off, are you breaching the rules?

This is just stoopid.

[MegaWatty]

No.

[mike]

OK so if it's in your bag and switched on, you're a cheat because it has the capability of giving info in breach of rule 23B/12.6.

If it's in your bag and switched on it still has that same capability. It's easy to turn on an iPhone. Again, I don't care. I just think the rules of golf are stupid.

What if I have a non conforming driver in my bag but don't use it?

[MegaWatty]

Oh god.

No time. We've been through this Mike. No to the first one again. Unless you're using a course GPS app.

[mike]

OK I'll step aside. I haven't read this all that closely. I don't own an iPhone anyway.

[mike]

What if ... never mind.

[henno]

What if you have a rangefinder with slope etc in your pocket... switched off?

[mike]

That's what I was gonna ask.

[Courty]

Oh god.

No time. We've been through this Mike. No to the first one again. Unless you're using a course GPS app.

So using the non-GPS version of Golfshot on an iPhone is legal, regardless if the fact the hardware is capable of all sorts of illegal activities? Can Henno & Blakey confirm?

The whole thing is a frikkin joke. Compasses, FFS. Anyone with half a brain can work out which direction is North without a compass. :roll:

[mike]

http://www.tgnobby.com/ballog/images/tfgumby.gif

[PeteyD]

What if you can use your penis to determine wind direction? Is it nonconforming?

[Dotty]

What if you can use your penis to determine wind direction? Is it nonconforming?
Is it over 48" long?

[PeteyD]

Maybe before the accident.

[adlo]

OK I'll step aside. I haven't read this all that closely. I don't own an iPhone anyway.
What if.... somehow.... in Mike Spag, a Nokia with iPhone 4 written on it in crayon, was switched on?

Is it over 48" long?

Gold :lol:

[markTHEblake]

Blakey, I think we're arguing the same thing here.
I have as much interest in discovering the truth as anyone, I would not describe it as arguing. I have concluded most of my comment with a question. My Android phone has an application GPS Status that includes a compass, i will have to delete that, I think.


At what point does a capability become a feature?
As far as multifunctional devices go, it is when an Application performs a non-confirming function in its normal use.
eg,
A compass application installed on a Phone/Pda renders it non-conforming.
Magnetic sensors on a Phone do not render it non-conforming, therefore if said Compass application is not installed then it is Ok to use the Phone.
Navigation software on the phone that always points 'up' for north, is dubious.

Compare this example to a normal analogue watch. You can detect north using this, however you are not penalised for wearing a watch while playing golf, only if you use it to detect north.


OK so if it's in your bag and switched on, you're a cheat because it has the capability of giving info in breach of rule 23B/12.6.
No. Only if you use it as a DMD.


What if I have a non conforming driver in my bag but don't use it?
Good question. I would expect that you would be penalised, and this example has no relevance to this topic, there is a completely different subset of rules for clubs.


What if you have a rangefinder with slope etc in your pocket... switched off?

Is the significance of your question that it is in your pocket as opposed to your golf bag? I think thats unlikely unless you are trying to impress the ladies. I would say that the answer is the same as to mikes question. Unless you use it there is no penalty


So using the non-GPS version of Golfshot on an iPhone is legal, regardless if the fact the hardware is capable of all sorts of illegal activities? Can Henno & Blakey confirm?
Yes, it is the software applications on the iPhone that determine whether its non conforming or not, not the hardware, because the normal use of the multifunction device itself is not a non-conforming purpose, unlike a Bushnell range finder with slope.


The whole thing is a frikkin joke. Compasses, FFS. Anyone with half a brain can work out which direction is North without a compass. :roll:

Like!!.


What if you can use your penis to determine wind direction? Is it nonconforming?

No difference to licking your finger and holding it up in the air. However If you can do the same with your penis, then your playing partners are going to be mightily impressed than you can both lick it, and point it high enough in the air.

[sms316]

Just have a local rule banning all mobile phones from use in a round. Penalty DQ.

Simple.

[andigold]

From the Leith Society discussion on the subject

Hopefully all golf unions and organisations in the world Rule according to the R&A and USGA joint statement

Under the Rules the player may use a phone during the round to call from, for listening to music, listing his scores or looking at a Rules/Decision application even if it has a compass, a level or thermometer. The Ruling bodies trust the player not to use these applications.
(Decision 14-3/16 specifies this together with the joint statement)

But if the player uses any electronic gadget with illegal applications as a distance measuring device, he will be DQ.


Does this mean an iPhone can never be used as a legal DMD as you can't uninstall the compass?

[andigold]

Just read through the joint statement, iPhones are out unless you can get rid of the compass somehow

http://www.randa.org/en/Rules-and-Amateur-Status/Rules-in-Focus/Archive/2011/March/DMDs.aspx

[Marto65]

Well .. I'm using it until someone (an official) tells me I cant.

I checked with the guys (officials) at Headland this weekend, and they didnt have a problem with me using it, in an AB event.

If anyone tells me I cant use it and wants me DQ'd ... they might have an uncomfortable walk for the day.

[andigold]

Marto I think that if you ask for a ruling from a rules official in a tournament and he gives you the OK to use then you're fine. If you use it in an ordinary club comp knowing it's illegal you are a cheat.

[Marto65]

Has anyone got a problem with me using my iPhone next week in the ozgolf masters?

[Marto65]

Speak now or forever have my phone jammed where the sun don't shine.

[Iain]

Social play isn't it? Do what you like!!

[Johnny Canuck]

Speak now or forever have my phone jammed where the sun don't shine.

Is Yoss playing?

[simmsy]

my head hurts real bad at the moment.

[MegaWatty]

Simmsy's a cheat?

[Johnny Canuck]

No. Technology, like the Internet, makes Simmsy's head hurt.

[adlo]

:lol:

[MegaWatty]

Have you seen his iPhone rig including charging it from his buggy battery?

He'll be darker than Kamahl!

[simmsy]

Simmsy's a cheat?


you don't have your iphone on course?

let me get my head around this (it may take awhile)

having an iphone (or any phone with a compass) would be illegal whether it is turned on or off, in your bag or in your hand as it has the compass capability. Just like having a laser range finder with slope function, even if you don't use the slope function it is illegal to use that range finder in comp as it has an "illegal" capability,
would that be correct?

No phones carrying compass allowed on course at all??

[MegaWatty]

Darker.

[MegaWatty]

Read more. Only if they are used as DMDs. Aka Golfshot.

[simmsy]

ok, sweet.


new toy.


so would still be able to use golfshot as stat device? just turn off the GPS function?

i don't understand how they differentiate between rangefinder/slope and phone/compass, but if that's the case that's the case i guess.

[MegaWatty]

Group buy?

[simmsy]

yeah, like you need another gps...how many you got now 2 or 3? howabout slinging one my way for a carton?

[adlo]

I know someone in Perth selling a used GPS for a great price Mega!

[WBennett]

I have 60 apps on my Android. None that I can tell have ever been able to judge wind in any way, or is a compass etc.

I am able to use it in comp with my GPS application wtih the SIM removed because

a) I am only getting point to point distance as per any other GPS and no other information
b) its not an Iphone, sheeple...

So far, our Golf Sec has STILL not answered my question of 3 months ago.

[simmsy]

no weather feature on your Android? or internet?

[MegaWatty]

It has an accelerometer. Make sure you don't have one of those spirit level apps!

[MegaWatty]

no weather feature on your Android? or internet?

Not an issue. Tells you what the weather WAS in a different location.

[MegaWatty]

yeah, like you need another gps...how many you got now 2 or 3? howabout slinging one my way for a carton?

1

[TourFit]

Mega probably has TWO GPS's simmsy...

One to use as a DMD on course, the other to better help give you directions where to go when he says GGF

[shazza_rs]

Scenario: playing partner is taking relief from a cart path. He starts moving leaves and sticks out of the way before dropping his ball. As I'm walking to my ball I say to him "you know you aren't allowed to do that?" He says "I'm just moving some leaves". I tell him that it's improving your lie and cheating.

Didn't call the penalty on him as I couldn't recall whether or not it was a 1 or 2 shot penalty. I did however take great satisfaction in him stinking it up for the remainder of that hole and the next two. :)

[MegaWatty]

Mega probably has TWO GPS's simmsy...

One to use as a DMD on course, the other to better help give you directions where to go when he says GGF

GPS. Ditch.

That is all.

[WBennett]

no weather feature on your Android? or internet?


Not with the SIM card removed from the device

[Johnny Canuck]

Shazza, what your playing partner did was 100 percent legal. You took great satisfaction in messing up someone's round when you shouldn't have.

When the ball is not in play, as it wasn't, you can move whatever you want.

[Daves]

Shazza, what your playing partner did was 100 percent legal. You took great satisfaction in messing up someone's round when you shouldn't have.

When the ball is not in play, as it wasn't, you can move whatever you want.

Not quite. You can remove loose impediments (Decision 23-1/6).

[shazza_rs]

JC. See rule 13-2 improving lie. The player can only remove irregularities on the teeing ground.

I believe I was in fact correct.