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AndyP
4th July 2009, 08:12 AM
My only concern in the pro-shop lately is the new members making their first posts in there :-k



I do on the other hand have issues with new members coming in and trying to flog off gear, before they even make a post.


+1


No problems here either besides the 1 posters trying to flog stuff..

Why do you have a problem with it? How does it affect you? Surely you are just less likely to buy from a first poster?

Even if there was a post limit wouldn't the some new members then post absolute crap in a few threads to get their post count over the limit? We've seen it before, so people can get over the post limit to be able to post a web link.

Minor_Threat
4th July 2009, 08:17 AM
It doesn't affect me at all, because I wouldn't buy anything from them anyway. However to me these people are undermining the "community" and not really here to discuss golf etc etc.

How about making it a period of time? Another forum I visit "Overclockers" has a time limit on members before they can view the buy / sell forum and that seems to work quite well.

henno
4th July 2009, 08:18 AM
Some good points there AndyP, I'm not sure how you stop it. Perhaps a meagre post limit of one or two posts, just so they at least open their mouths, but not enough so that they spam 20 threads of crap just to get to the limit.

Better still, leave it as is but place a little blurb in the Pro Shop rules that it is considered poor form and rude to sell items before making yourself known. That way, the Pro Shop posse will be able to point to something when they go to work on one of these drive-by seller's threads.

AndyP
4th July 2009, 08:23 AM
We currently have this in the overall rules:

The Pro Shop Forum
... is offered as a courtesy to the members of the forum. Most members, if not all, will ignore For Sale ads from new members with no posting history.But goughy just mentioned to me that we could extend it out to give the newbies the idea that their sale was unlikely to be taken seriously.

If there is a post limit, couldn't we miss out on potential bargains?

MT, I could look into the time limit before accessing the forum.

Eag's
4th July 2009, 08:25 AM
I am in the same boat as the other guys. I would not buy from a complete newbie either. I do like Minor Threat's time limit idea though, would it be hard to introduce something like that AP?

Tex
4th July 2009, 08:36 AM
How often does it happen? Is it happening that often that it is a problem? If it is not happening that often is it still a problem?

I would think NOT MUCH, NO and NO. (so why create more work for the admin)

I just bought a putter from a 2 poster and am very happy with everything about the whole affair, putter is in the post. Bargain buy IMHO, maybe why I got it is because of the predisposition of contempt for low posters selling stuff.

Keep it up gentlemen, worked for me :smt038

I have an envelope..............

henno
4th July 2009, 08:42 AM
putter is in the post

You know what they say about chickens... and not counting them...

:wink:

goughy
4th July 2009, 08:45 AM
My thought is only that the 1st timers selling stuff have a tendency to get hammered in their thread about selling stuff without joining in the forum - just might turn off a potential new member before they have a chance to really get into the forum. It doesn't always look that friendly and inviting as well.

I thought maybe more a subtle hint (maybe not tooooo subtle) that while there are no restrictions on them doing it, they might get a better response by joining in with the forum for a bit first. That we have a very community feel and that members tend to buy from those they know. And maybe that if their only interest in the forum is to sell their stuff then the trading post/ebay may have more success for them.

Personally, I think that a 1st time poster selling stuff in the pro shop is gonna have more luck in the trading post/ebay! As Tex said, he's bought from a member with a low post count, but they still obviously showed an interest in the forum otherwise they wouldn't have even that small post count!

Tex
4th July 2009, 08:50 AM
You know what they say about chickens... and not counting them...

:wink:

:-s
LOL These chickens are counted: notwithstanding a fox en route, I have full faith in the seller... very nice gentleman... long live the low poster.


My thought is only that the 1st timers selling stuff have a tendency to get hammered in their thread about selling stuff without joining in the forum - just might turn off a potential new member before they have a chance to really get into the forum. It doesn't always look that friendly and inviting as well.

I thought maybe more a subtle hint (maybe not tooooo subtle) that while there are no restrictions on them doing it, they might get a better response by joining in with the forum for a bit first. That we have a very community feel and that members tend to buy from those they know. And maybe that if their only interest in the forum is to sell their stuff then the trading post/ebay may have more success for them.

Personally, I think that a 1st time poster selling stuff in the pro shop is gonna have more luck in the trading post/ebay! As Tex said, he's bought from a member with a low post count, but they still obviously showed an interest in the forum otherwise they wouldn't have even that small post count!

HERE HERE! "LTFFTP" Long time follower, First Time poster - not to be forgotten.

goughy
4th July 2009, 08:54 AM
Let me start with this :mrgreen:

1st posters selling stuff is no good? Please explain... seems somewhat supercilious to me.

Thought I'd answer Tex's question from another thread regarding the pro shop. These are my thoughts anyway.

Technically we have no problems with it. But over the years ozgolf has grown into a very community feel. The pro shop was started to allow the members here to swap and sell their stuff, and has worked well. Most of the time stuff is being sold at bargain prices, in some cases because it's like you're selling stuff to mates. I have got some doosey bargains myself here, as I bet most of the membership has.

It was never intended to be ebay or the trading post, but I've never wanted to put a post count restriction on people being able to sell and buy in their. As Andyp and I have always said, it's there as a courtesy to the members.

What generally happens to first time posters there, is they either get told in no uncertain terms that they should try being a member first rather than just hocking their stuff. Or they get 0 response.

I don't want either to happen, hence why we encourage them to become a part of the community first. I'm sure there are some who just want to sell their stuff and try it here because they have access to a golfing market. But that's not what the pro shop is about. Consider it a community service.

goughy
4th July 2009, 08:57 AM
"LTFFTP" Long time follower, First Time poster - not to be forgotten.

That's the other thing to take into account. There will be members who come here weekly yet only lurk. Then they have something to sell and appear to be someone who just jumped in to hock their gear.

In saying that, someone who's been a lurker here for a while probably has seen the reaction to 1st time posters in the pro shop.

Tex
4th July 2009, 09:15 AM
Love your work goughy - very clear voice of moderation. I hear what you are saying about the community feel it is great that the whole community take 'ownership' of the forum to that extent. In this forum, other sporting and non sporting forums and forums I have created run and moderated over time, my view has always been somewhat altruistic... I would rather see the communities new neighbour get invited over to the BBQ than just stake a sign up stating "Keep of the lawn... 'til we get to know you" Still I guess I am not going to buy their car off them at that BBQ...

TEX OUT :)

PeteyD
4th July 2009, 10:54 AM
No need for the limit. Also no need to jump down the newbies throats. Although shipping 1 ball to NZ made me laugh.

markTHEblake
4th July 2009, 11:06 AM
My thought is only that the 1st timers selling stuff have a tendency to get hammered in their thread about selling stuff without joining in the forum

Thats the issue then isn't it. Off topic posts are not permitted but they still happen.

The forum in general has a number of guidelines in place already that are being totally disregarded, eg Proshop, pictures, swearing. This is really showing a complete lack of respect for the administration team that has set up these guidelines.

Eag's
4th July 2009, 11:44 AM
Thats the issue then isn't it. Off topic posts are not permitted but they still happen.

The forum in general has a number of guidelines in place already that are being totally disregarded, eg Proshop, pictures, swearing. This is really showing a complete lack of respect for the administration team that has set up these guidelines.

Blakey, if the Admin team inforced every rule to the letter on this forum, this place would quickly turn into the other site we do not speak of. The Admins show a fair bit of flexibility when it comes to posts that are off topic, light sledging and humorous. In saying that if someone steps out of line, they are usualy delt with quickly. The swear filter blocks just about everything so I am not to sure what you are on about there?

Tex
4th July 2009, 05:05 PM
DITTO

And like most other forums of any persuasion... this place is less about golf and more about people who play golf talking about other things, at times scantly related to the game.

3oneday
4th July 2009, 05:54 PM
This sold yet ?

Johnny Canuck
4th July 2009, 06:54 PM
having a 20 post limit will simply get you 19 b.s time wasting posts.

leave that for the w.a. crew...

Yossarian
4th July 2009, 06:57 PM
Yeah stay of our turf homies.

henno
4th July 2009, 07:23 PM
Thats the issue then isn't it. Off topic posts are not permitted but they still happen.

The forum in general has a number of guidelines in place already that are being totally disregarded, eg Proshop, pictures, swearing. This is really showing a complete lack of respect for the administration team that has set up these guidelines.

If all of the rules were inforced to the letter, most of the regulars here would be banned within a day or two.

This may be good or bad, depending on which side of the party-pooper fence you sit on.

PeteyD
5th July 2009, 06:59 AM
Shuddap nerdbucket.

mike
5th July 2009, 09:13 AM
I'd be more likely to buy from a first time poster than someone with 27000 posts.;)

Courty
5th July 2009, 10:30 AM
I'd be more likely to buy from a first time poster than someone with 27000 posts.;)

:lol:

Bruce
21st October 2009, 12:16 PM
I think we might need to reconsider this for the next couple of weeks.

The leadup to The Masters is likely to generate a lot of first time sellers and buyers as eBay will shut down any sales there (I think). With that will come the risk of facilitating scalping, which is why eBay won't allow those listings, and that is something we should probably avoid.

kpac
21st October 2009, 12:19 PM
The leadup to The Masters is likely to generate a lot of first time sellers and buyers as eBay will shut down any sales there (I think).

why is this???

PeteyD
21st October 2009, 12:22 PM
anti scalping.

3oneday
21st October 2009, 12:27 PM
But the guy here is selling at cost of $49 ? A risk even for that amount I guess but still, very hard to police is someone is prepared to risk it.


Who's playing anyway ?

AndyP
21st October 2009, 12:37 PM
Isn't it only scalping if you are selling for more than the purchase price?

Bruce
21st October 2009, 12:38 PM
http://www.premier.vic.gov.au/minister-for-sport-recreation/australian-masters-protected-by-ticketing-legislation.html

The Masters is a declared event and so no profiteering is possible.

I think the ability to sell fakes is a bit easier with tickets than clubs and that is always a risk with the drop in salesmen.

This is NOT a smack at Golfhack - I can not say one way or the other whether he is legit or not or whether he is trying to profit. I'm only thinking he may be the first on a line of future sellers.

zigwah
21st October 2009, 12:43 PM
What i notice they did with pink tickets is offer her new cd for say 500 and u get 2 free tickets with the CD.

Ferrins
21st October 2009, 09:04 PM
They should have to take a golf ball to the head at a Ozgolf event before they can list items for sale.

zigwah
21st October 2009, 09:14 PM
to the pisser?

parlyboy
21st October 2009, 09:39 PM
having a 20 post limit will simply get you 19 b.s time wasting posts.

leave that for the w.a. crew...

FFS...isnt this an ISG rule...thats why i moved here?

DracZ
21st October 2009, 10:10 PM
Agreed, is there anyway to add a feedback system perhaps?

markTHEblake
21st October 2009, 10:22 PM
Dont worry Dracz, if someone screws up, we come down on them like a ton of bricks and then you never see them again.

3oneday
22nd October 2009, 07:15 AM
FFS...isnt this an ISG rule...thats why i moved here?

As far as I know it never happened, but then read the guy who is selling the Masters ticket thread. No one will buy until they know you anyway ;)

you know, I think I was the one that suggested that limit at ISG :oops:

Webster
11th December 2012, 07:14 AM
Question for our moderators, what is the policy on people who post here just to sell their gear, and make no contribution to the broader forum?

AndyP
11th December 2012, 07:27 AM
It is better for their own sanity that they don't resort to dribbling with the masses on the rest of the forum.

markTHEblake
11th December 2012, 07:29 AM
I agree. Ban Perci!

BenM
11th December 2012, 07:34 AM
I would argue that even if Perci never posted anywhere else he still makes a contribution by offering lots of good gear at good prices.

Teenagers that get on here and try and sell stuff for more than it's worth and then get all narky when they're called on it aren't really doing much for anyone here.

Webster
11th December 2012, 07:36 AM
It is better for their own sanity that they don't resort to dribbling with the masses on the rest of the forum.

Probably, especially is they are still going through puberty.

Where are the forum rules Andy? I couldnt find them anywhere (on the light version).

PeteyD
11th December 2012, 07:36 AM
And the trolls who pick on said teenagers turning their threads into a mess are better?

kingslayer33
11th December 2012, 07:40 AM
Teenagers that get on here and try and sell stuff for more than it's worth and then get all narky when they're called on it aren't really doing much for anyone here. To be fair you can learn all sorts of things from these teenagers. I have learnt some current acronyms and also improved my ability to decipher seemingly indecipherable ramblings caused by horrible grammar and spelling. Things I'm sure will come in handy in 7-8 years when my own kids reach that teen threshold. :)

Webster
11th December 2012, 07:43 AM
And the trolls who pick on said teenagers turning their threads into a mess are better?

C'mon Petey, nobody was picking on anyone. A few hard questions were asked and thats about it.

sms316
11th December 2012, 07:44 AM
And the trolls who pick on said teenagers turning their threads into a mess are better? Those trolls keep you employed in your highly paid moderator position.

Monsta
11th December 2012, 07:46 AM
I have found the recent pro shop thread entertaining, After dealing with a teenager myself for years, it is good to see that they are basically the same everywhere.

BenM
11th December 2012, 07:47 AM
And the trolls who pick on said teenagers turning their threads into a mess are better?

No, the behaviour is no better. But at least some of the people involved have been here more than 5 minutes and can say they've helped people/made contributions. No excuse/justification though.

However mods have tools to deal with those that want to act up....

It's probably important to note that from what I saw the amount of genuine trolling was quite small, there were also a lot of legitimate/helpful comments. Just because the OP didn't like the feedback doesn't automatically make it trolling.

sms316
11th December 2012, 07:49 AM
Why a Pro Shop post limit? Shouldn't it be a minimum?

Ashes
11th December 2012, 08:18 AM
And the trolls who pick on said teenagers turning their threads into a mess are better?

Given the number of times he's lied, created fake accounts etc, are you surprised?

From what I've read his threads have only snowballed because of his response to others. Similar comments are made in other threads without it being an issue.

Jarro
11th December 2012, 08:45 AM
Maybe we should just delete the pro-shop forum altogether ?

Too many lowballers these days anyway.

Monsta
11th December 2012, 08:46 AM
Maybe we should just delete the pro-shop forum altogether ?

Too many lowballers these days anyway.

More than half of the forum would have nothing to do.........

AndyP
11th December 2012, 08:47 AM
Maybe we should just delete the pro-shop forum altogether ?

Too many lowballers these days anyway.
+1
**** off to eBay.

Daves
11th December 2012, 08:51 AM
Maybe we should just delete the pro-shop forum altogether ?

Too many lowballers these days anyway.


More than half of the forum would have nothing to do.........

Would halve the number of threads Jarro could troll also, we need to keep him busy.

popper81
11th December 2012, 08:52 AM
Would halve the number of threads Jarro could troll also, we need to keep him busy.

Hit the nail on the head.

kingslayer33
11th December 2012, 08:59 AM
Would halve the number of threads Jarro could troll also, we need to keep him busy. Heaven help us there. He already spends way too much time in the AFL thread.

Webster
11th December 2012, 09:03 AM
Too many lowballers these days anyway.

It's the high starting prices that cause all the problems. Should be infraction points for such an appalling practice.

PeteyD
11th December 2012, 09:03 AM
C'mon Petey, nobody was picking on anyone. A few hard questions were asked and thats about it.

Yes there were, there was also direct bullying from a number of people. Hard questions will still be in the threads.


Those trolls keep you employed in your highly paid moderator position.

Yep, I am saving up all the headaches you cause for some stress leave.


No, the behaviour is no better. But at least some of the people involved have been here more than 5 minutes and can say they've helped people/made contributions. No excuse/justification though.

However mods have tools to deal with those that want to act up....

It's probably important to note that from what I saw the amount of genuine trolling was quite small, there were also a lot of legitimate/helpful comments. Just because the OP didn't like the feedback doesn't automatically make it trolling.

Yes, boundaries etc.


I was actually thinking more about the new lad from Melbourne more than the young whippersnapper.
He's got a shiteload of gear and obviously the Ozgolf punters are happy for him to be here and buy his stuff. But I counted 90 initial posts and all of them were related to his sell threads.

I'm not knocking the bloke at all, and if the rest of the site are happy with him then fine but is this sole selling service what the site was set up for ?

This is under some serious discussion in mod land.


Given the number of times he's lied, created fake accounts etc, are you surprised?

From what I've read his threads have only snowballed because of his response to others. Similar comments are made in other threads without it being an issue.

Yes, which is why he has had a holiday and gets warnings too. Comments in other threads are usually between people that know each other (eg Marto and Poops and their love fest). The main issue is that warnings were given in thread and were ignored by the usual suspects.

timah!
11th December 2012, 09:06 AM
Perhaps adults should just act as adults?
Perhaps the mods should actually moderate rather than troll?

PeteyD
11th December 2012, 09:10 AM
Nice Timah. I guess that is all the moderators do.

Jarro
11th December 2012, 09:11 AM
Perhaps the mods should actually moderate rather than troll?

Most of you would take your bat and ball and go home if that were to happen.

timah!
11th December 2012, 09:28 AM
Yep, cos we all hang out for the witty repartee of the mods.

Seriously, if the threads in question had been dealt with in a timely fashion, given the issues and history of the user, then there would have been no issue.

To suggest there is 'heavy discussion' around a user using the correct section of the forum, to sell golf goods with (more than) reasonable prices, in a better manner than most do highlights how rubbish the system is.

Perhaps we'd all just be happier with more whining about 'booby gif Friday' and dribble about 'blue cheese'...

PeteyD
11th December 2012, 09:44 AM
Yep Timah, cos all us mods sit here 24/7 watching for threads with dodgy stuff that people do not report.

There is heavy discussion about people only using the pro shop, as the issue has been raised by members of the forum.

The whining has started again.

Yossarian
11th December 2012, 09:45 AM
I think everything works really well. Seriously. Except jarro who is annoying and short.

Peter
11th December 2012, 09:46 AM
If this is supposed to be a 'community' then some harmless banter should be encouraged, as that is what happens in real life. This includes the mods, who shouldn't be prevented from having some fun.

If we want to become a fee-free eBay alternative for strangers looking to flog clubs at high prices then I think we will find that a lot of the regulars will simply disappear.

timah!
11th December 2012, 09:46 AM
One look told you how ALL THREE of those threads were going.

Never mind, carry on. You're all doing a great job blah blah blah.

Sydney Hacker
11th December 2012, 09:46 AM
Yep, cos we all hang out for the witty repartee of the mods. Seriously, if the threads in question had been dealt with in a timely fashion, given the issues and history of the user, then there would have been no issue. To suggest there is 'heavy discussion' around a user using the correct section of the forum, to sell golf goods with (more than) reasonable prices, in a better manner than most do highlights how rubbish the system is. Perhaps we'd all just be happier with more whining about 'booby gif Friday' and dribble about 'blue cheese'...Given the high salary of the mods should we instigate some KPI's around timeframes for the moding then?

Yossarian
11th December 2012, 09:48 AM
One look told you how ALL THREE of those threads were going. Never mind, carry on. You're all doing a great job blah blah blah.Have those 3 threads really impacted your ozgolf experience that much? You can ignore thread/ user.

sms316
11th December 2012, 09:49 AM
Let me know if you would like at katy pic uploaded from my library. I hope she isn't at the cricket.

BenM
11th December 2012, 09:51 AM
Bit harsh to call it whining when people have some genuine feedback. I know from personal experience, the mods have a hard job, believe me...

But I do agree that it's not fair to suggest that the mods 'work faster' when they're here on their free time (and when nobody has reported the posts).

What is needed (like with anything in life) is balance. There are times when mods need to crack down hard (and if people bitch then too bad) and there are other times when a bit of banter is fine. It's difficult to get that judgement call right sometimes.

I guess the reason I thought a minimum post count before posting in the Pro Shop might help is it avoids some of the need for those judgements.

Ashes
11th December 2012, 09:52 AM
If this is supposed to be a 'community' then some harmless banter should be encouraged, as that is what happens in real life. This includes the mods, who shouldn't be prevented from having some fun.

If we want to become a fee-free eBay alternative for strangers looking to flog clubs at high prices then I think we will find that a lot of the regulars will simply disappear.

Well said Peter. Most of the members that have copped infractions or bans are the ones that make this an interesting forum to be involved in and also seem to be the ones committed to attend events.

Daves
11th December 2012, 09:54 AM
Bit harsh to call it whining when people have some genuine feedback. I know from personal experience, the mods have a hard job, believe me...

But I do agree that it's not fair to suggest that the mods 'work faster' when they're here on their free time (and when nobody has reported the posts).

What is needed (like with anything in life) is balance. There are times when mods need to crack down hard (and if people bitch then too bad) and there are other times when a bit of banter is fine. It's difficult to get that judgement call right sometimes.

I guess the reason I thought a minimum post count before posting in the Pro Shop might help is it avoids some of the need for those judgements.

If you have been to ISG in the last 24 hrs you would have seen how the person(s) in question have made a mockery of post limit requirement, and the end game is pretty much same result as here.

Yossarian
11th December 2012, 09:57 AM
Exactly, post count minimum just increase the dribble. In reality some people are whining about one/two users who have now been brought under control after a period of grace was given to them.

BenM
11th December 2012, 09:58 AM
Ban people who deliberately dribble to get around it. Simple.

Yossarian
11th December 2012, 09:58 AM
As for blokes like lovegolf who just rock up to flog stuff does it really matter? If it gets others golf gear at a good price then cool. For some people golf is all about hoing. I agree they should always be trolled about it though. PS Yoss for mod.

popper81
11th December 2012, 10:04 AM
Yes, which is why he has had a holiday and gets warnings too. Comments in other threads are usually between people that know each other (eg Marto and Poops and their love fest). The main issue is that warnings were given in thread and were ignored by the usual suspects.


Leave me out of this bungfight..... :roll:

FWIW - Why are the mods under attack again? I am sure there was friendly suggestion to 'walk to the correct beat' pivately, and in the thread, prior to any actual governance.... Ozgolf is fun because of the different personalities. Jarro is a troll, but he likes the broncos, so he must be ok!

I think a few people need to chill..... It is xmas time.... come hang out in the chill out room.

LoveGolf2012
11th December 2012, 10:06 AM
As for blokes like lovegolf who just rock up to flog stuff does it really matter? If it gets others golf gear at a good price then cool. For some people golf is all about hoing. I agree they should always be trolled about it though. PS Yoss for mod.

Thanks for picking me out as a single...HAHA .....But in my defence,at least i have also bought stuff from this site.....Sorry if i have offended anyone was not my intention,and i feel their would be some people here who would verify that on my behalf ! Cheers Ray !

Eag's
11th December 2012, 10:20 AM
FFS! give it a rest, don't you lot get tired of this constant bullshit :roll:

markTHEblake
11th December 2012, 03:01 PM
I have got no idea what user or threads are being talked about here and my guess is I would not be the only one.

Seriously if a new poster starts selling stuff he really has no street credibility so ignore the post and move on.

P.s. and if the criteria is forum contributions that pretty much gets golfer69 outed. Cos everything he contributed disappears soon after. :-)

Lagerlover
11th December 2012, 03:34 PM
Exactly, post count minimum just increase the dribble.

Rubbish

Moe Norman
11th December 2012, 04:07 PM
if someone signs up and sells stuff in first post, you should treat it with common sense and caution.

Is it that hard?

Steve57
11th December 2012, 05:19 PM
if someone signs up and sells stuff in first post, you should treat it with common sense and caution.

Is it that hard?:smt023

Lagerlover
11th December 2012, 06:02 PM
Rubbish

Hey, I posted this three times... THEN it would have been funny!

Johnny Canuck
11th December 2012, 06:14 PM
Yep Timah, cos all us mods sit here 24/7 watching for threads with dodgy stuff that people do not report.There is heavy discussion about people only using the pro shop, as the issue has been raised by members of the forum.The whining has started again. Looking forward to the next imix firesale Petey. ;)Everyone needs to relax. A minimum post count is a minor hurdle. Yoss could clear it is 4 minutes.Ray, LoveGolf is a quality, legit seller. Everyone knew that James Cohen Campbell's and ayden's threads would never go anywhere except downhill. The guy has been caught lying a few times, who would honestly trust him?I will not buy from someone who hasn't been here for a while, or who can't be referred or recommended by anyone else. PS, Yoss for Mod.

sms316
11th December 2012, 06:44 PM
PS, Yoss for Mod. If Yoss became a mod, Club 14 would have a decision to make about our endorsed mod. I can't disendorse MegaWatty.

davepuppies
11th December 2012, 07:09 PM
I never had a problem with anyone selling clubs, nor that that didn't contribute to forum, but I think it sucks that someone can continually lie, create multiple accounts, and generally insult the intelligence of the broader community.

I personally think the mods do a good job, and I rarely get involved in this sort of shit, but with the young fella in person personally running me around a few times on items I was selling, he shouldn't cry, or be protected when it happens back to him.

In any event, I am happy to go with the flow and get back to business as usual.......