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Minor_Threat
8th May 2009, 04:06 PM
Well my application to Newcastle GC made it through the 1st board meeting which is great, however I have only just found out that they charge member green fees. $7 for 9 holes and $14 for 18 holes.

This hasn't turned me off, however it is a cost and something I did not expect. The weekends are fine with me as I was expecting to pay comp fees etc (which are $17 inc. green fees), it is just the weekday afternoon games that will catch me out. I was planning on heading to the course 2 - 3 times a week after work to hit balls or play a few holes or whatever.

Anyway, how common is this and what do other clubs charge?

mikezone13
8th May 2009, 04:17 PM
$5 member fees at my track, but this includes a $2.50 drink voucher at the bar as well, not ideal but I'd rather this than higher annual fees

razaar
8th May 2009, 04:43 PM
Those charges seem excessive MT, is the membership chockas with provisional membership? Oh Isee, just looked at the club's history, it seems this revenue will repay debenture capital and loan funding for the watering system and clubhouse renos.

Minor_Threat
8th May 2009, 04:51 PM
Those charges seem excessive MT, is the membership chockas with provisional membership? Oh Isee, just looked at the club's history, it seems this revenue will repay debenture capital and loan funding for the watering system and clubhouse renos.I cant find any reference to above?

virge666
8th May 2009, 04:52 PM
I would have a a full on tanty if i had to cop this on a long term basis.

Asquith did it at $2 a game... and that I thought was OK as it was for short term debt.

$10 It is an extra $200 on your subs depending on how much you play.

Personally and IMHO, i can walk on to our course at any time and play for free as long as I like. That is because I am a MEMBER. If you need cash - let the public cop it.

razaar
8th May 2009, 04:58 PM
I cant find any reference to above? I have a copy of the Newcastle Golf Club history (1905-2005) by John Robson. The green fees aren't memtioned specifically but this is the most likely reason for the member green fees.

virge666
8th May 2009, 05:06 PM
If you need cash - let the public cop it.

Does Newcastle have a lot of public playing ??

What is the fee structure ?

Scottt
8th May 2009, 05:12 PM
Having a nice chat with yourself there, Virge? :lol:

Minor_Threat
8th May 2009, 05:12 PM
Does Newcastle have a lot of public playing ??

What is the fee structure ?
They do but it is limited to players who are a members elsewhere or corporates. Social fees are $88.

squishy
8th May 2009, 05:33 PM
my club doesn't charge unless you play a comp round, newcastle is a damm nice track tho.

Courty
8th May 2009, 05:36 PM
Comp fees only at Cairns GC. Cost is generally $10 for a regular 18 hole comp.

goughy
8th May 2009, 05:37 PM
My (now old) club charges members for social golf on weekends, but not during the week. Considering most if not all members play comps on the weekend it's not a big deal!

Moe Norman
8th May 2009, 05:40 PM
Nope, and I wouldn't join a club that did.

Actually quite surprised that Newcastle has this - explain yourself Andrew!

Jarro
8th May 2009, 05:42 PM
my club doesn't charge unless you play a comp round

Same here

moree golfer
8th May 2009, 06:19 PM
I know we have a goat track at Moree but no green fees here and they recently spent some serious coin on glamming up the clubhouse. I would jack up if the board thought that playing members were the only benefitting from a new clubhouse, players and non-players alike should shoulder the extra costs.

adlo
8th May 2009, 06:42 PM
No green fees and an $6 comp fee at Kennedy Bay

Webster
8th May 2009, 07:07 PM
Is it a green fee or a comp fee?

What is the point of being a member if you have to pay green fees?

BrisVegas
8th May 2009, 08:21 PM
i seem to recall I used to pay a small amount in green fees for social rounds at Toowoomba City GC. I guess it's ok if the annual subs are low, but I'm assuming Newcastle is pretty expensive.

LarryLong
8th May 2009, 08:34 PM
Sounds like they're double-dipping. I wouldn't sign up for that.

Comp fees are bad enough IMO, but I guess they've crept in everywhere.

adlo
8th May 2009, 08:38 PM
Yeah it kind of seems like your subs are merely "subsidising" your golf. Seems crap.

Awaiting explanation from Andrew...

Dotty
8th May 2009, 08:42 PM
A group of us played Federal (ACT) on Monday as reciprocals, and were charged a $5 green fee. (Or it may have been an admin fee.)

No problem with a small 'user pays' tariff like this, which is along the same lines as a locker rental and club storage.

TG01, is it the same charge for locals ?

u8ergolfer
8th May 2009, 08:55 PM
Newcastle = Stockton in the local vernacular doesn't it.. Good Course, but what a total piss take..Its a city whose roots are tied to the Steel and Coal industry.. Stockon?, well for the bosses..Wankon for the rest...so from your original post..can I pose the question..The Phlebs subsidise the rest do they???

I'd find another more egalitarian club.........pay for what you use, no more, no less.....

u8ergolfer
8th May 2009, 09:04 PM
you do not charge members to use their own course!!!

Scottt
8th May 2009, 09:23 PM
Uber, just say a club is $1500 pa, and $5 per game. The once a week golfer pays $1760.

So if they raise membership to $1800 and stop charging green fees, how is that any different?

Dotty
8th May 2009, 09:50 PM
Interestingly, I just did some figures on tomorrow's $10 comp. fee.

I could only account for $3 per player in voucher, ball and NTP prizes, plus a little bit put aside for pro-rata of the annual trophies and results in the newspapers.

Does that mean ... I'm paying a $7 green fee, but those bludgers who dig up the course on Sunday arvo and weekdays get to do it for free ?

virge666
8th May 2009, 10:06 PM
The comp is how the Pro earns a living. Some of it goes to the club and some to the pro.

$88 a round is insane for a course like Newcastle - it just doesn't have the base for it. Lower your green fees and get more public on the course.

You will end up with more memebers paying fees and more cash in your pocket from subs and drinks and food and the like.

Dotty
8th May 2009, 10:18 PM
Thanks Virge.

That also fits in with the club wanting to bring the pro shop in-house (which is a different thread).

Minor_Threat
8th May 2009, 10:21 PM
I will definitely quiz the club about it more. Like I said the weekends don't bother me the total comp fee will be $17 which I am used to paying in the past. I am torn as to how I will proceed, it is such a great golf course..

Scottt
8th May 2009, 10:32 PM
MT, how close to Stockton are you living?

Minor_Threat
8th May 2009, 10:34 PM
MT, how close to Stockton are you living?I live about 20 minutes away, work about 5 minutes away..

Scottt
8th May 2009, 10:35 PM
20 minutes towards Belmont, or the other way? I reckon Belmont is a really good track, but I haven't played it in a decade.

Minor_Threat
8th May 2009, 10:43 PM
20 minutes towards Belmont, or the other way? I reckon Belmont is a really good track, but I haven't played it in a decade.It would take a good 30-40 mins to Belmont from my house, further from my work. I contemplated Belmont, but its always windy and I hate playing in the wind!

jimandr
8th May 2009, 10:49 PM
My club (Camden Valley) charged a $5 "levy" on social rounds for a year. They worked out that the money they lost though less traffic by members who stopped playing social/practice rounds was more than the money gained through the levy. So they stopped it, and rightly so.

When I pay my yearly subs, I want my practice golf to be free. Newcastle should be the same. My club encourages green fee players out of competition times, but Newcastle does not. It works as a restricted access private golf course, requiring an invitation from a member.

Newcastle is a great course, but as Scottt said, Belmont is well worth a visit, and it would be a good course to be a member of if Newcastle are pursuing the strategy described. Tell'em they're dreamin'!!!

Minor_Threat
8th May 2009, 10:56 PM
It looks like Belmont charges a $5 green fee also.. :(

http://www.belmontgolf.com.au/membership.htm
(http://www.belmontgolf.com.au/membership.htn)

adlo
8th May 2009, 11:02 PM
The whole state of NSW is on drugs

Minor_Threat
8th May 2009, 11:04 PM
It also appears that Waratah charges a member social fee of $4.

http://www.waratahgolfclub.com.au/Course/playingfees.htm

It seems that all courses in the Hunter are following suit with whoever started this trend? Bloody Hell..

Scottt
8th May 2009, 11:04 PM
Charlestown?

Minor_Threat
8th May 2009, 11:13 PM
Charlestown?They are charging $3.. lol

Scottt
8th May 2009, 11:17 PM
Very strange...

Scottt
8th May 2009, 11:18 PM
If you're living north of Newcastle, what about Horizons? Good club atmosphere, albeit a small membership. Some great people and some very good golfers. About $2000pa, no join fee, unlimited golf. Comp fee, from memory, is $7.

Minor_Threat
8th May 2009, 11:30 PM
If you're living north of Newcastle, what about Horizons? Good club atmosphere, albeit a small membership. Some great people and some very good golfers. About $2000pa, no join fee, unlimited golf. Comp fee, from memory, is $7.Cheers mate, I have sent an enquiry off as they don't display the prices on the website. By the time I drive to Horizons it would be about break even with Newy anyway!

Scottt
8th May 2009, 11:36 PM
My grandparents live at and are members at Horizons, so that's how I know what it costs. My grandad is an old Windsor fella, so if you want to have a hit there to check it out, I've no doubt he'd be happy to host you. He plays every day anyway!

Minor_Threat
8th May 2009, 11:49 PM
My grandparents live at and are members at Horizons, so that's how I know what it costs. My grandad is an old Windsor fella, so if you want to have a hit there to check it out, I've no doubt he'd be happy to host you. He plays every day anyway!Thanks for your help mate.. Still not certain what I will do? But It still looks like ill go ahead with Newcastle.. Its a great course!

Scottt
8th May 2009, 11:55 PM
Yeah, hard to overlook it. Especially the first 11 holes. 5-7 might be the best three-hole stretch I've ever played.

Andrew
9th May 2009, 06:29 AM
The annual subs are only $1650, so we are not talking that much money in the great scheme of things. There is also the 'pre-paid green fees' option which if you play twice a week is much cheaper than paying green fees as you go.

just
9th May 2009, 06:38 AM
Andrew
Why do they charge the green fees?

Andrew
9th May 2009, 02:47 PM
Andrew
Why do they charge the green fees?

From memory it was to allow future works to be done on the course & clubhouse, & to allow the subs to remain cheaper. The 'pre-paid green fees' brings it up to about $2500 per year which is about right for the members it attracts.

Basically the annual subs are quite cheap for the level of course compared to its interstate reciprocals. As an example, one of our reciprocals, Woodlands has annual subs of $2500 + over $500 of levies + a $6000 joining fee.The membership has been at healthy numbers for quite a while with membership being closed a few times over the last 5 years or so.

These days you will find many different types of membership available from traditional to regulated games per year to 'pay as you go' & probably a bunch of others. This one works quite well for Newcastle, but may not be suitable for another club.

The great thing about the Newcastle area is that there are a lot of courses all at different levels of quality & cost, with something to suit everybody.

markTHEblake
9th May 2009, 04:09 PM
$2 here. Its a user pays system, instead of putting the membership fee up across the board.

Golf clubs are not trying to rip off their members to make a profit, they are trying to keep the golf course in the black, for the benefit of the members.

LarryLong
9th May 2009, 05:19 PM
I guess it's fair enough if the subs are cheaper. People need to start considering the total cost of membership these days - probably something people aren't used to doing after so many years of just paying the subs and playing golf for free.

The only possible downside of a user-pays system is that the people who end up paying the most are perhaps the people who deserve to benefit most from their membership. Sounds like Newcastle have a pre-paid option that gives the frequent golfer a chance to get good value from the membership, so that's not too bad.

I don't envy clubs that are battling increasing costs and decreasing membership. It must be hard to come up with a fee structure that works.

markTHEblake
9th May 2009, 05:57 PM
My club does have a higher level of membership that means you dont pay the $2. I cant even remember playing a social round anywhere for half a lifetime so it doesnt bother me at all.

ParMaster
9th May 2009, 06:18 PM
10 dollars for comp games at Oatlands. Nothing for social games.

Grunt
9th May 2009, 06:22 PM
Nice being a recip member of Oatlands, $10 comps are great.

razaar
9th May 2009, 06:26 PM
I'd be interested to learn how club's that charge member green fees police the by-law. Do they employ a starter or ranger or responsibility of club pro (many clubs don't have a club pro with responsibilities other than teaching)?

markTHEblake
9th May 2009, 06:36 PM
I'd be interested to learn how club's that charge member green fees police the by-law.

Supposed to check in with the pro shop before playing, and pay him.

I don't know of many golf courses that allow the members to just walk on whenever they like.

Grunt
9th May 2009, 06:36 PM
Lots of clubs down here ask that you report to the pro shop whether the game is free or not.

sms316
9th May 2009, 08:01 PM
I would have thought that clubs charging member green fees would be just another term for a water levy. Whilst none of us like it, it is a fact of life these days that we have to pay for water.

BrisVegas
9th May 2009, 08:50 PM
The annual subs are only $1650, so we are not talking that much money in the great scheme of things. There is also the 'pre-paid green fees' option ($2500) which if you play twice a week is much cheaper than paying green fees as you go.

That would make it one of the cheapest Top-20 courses in Australia wouldn't it??

dc68
9th May 2009, 09:09 PM
What a crock of shit..... If I am a member somwhere I would not pay anything to play 9 holes of an afternoon. We have a $10 comp fee but no social hit surcharge/assf*ck.

Moe Norman
9th May 2009, 10:00 PM
probably why your clubhouse is full of pokies and has neon lights, and the Newcastle clubhouse doesn't ;)

goughy
9th May 2009, 10:28 PM
Would there be a clubhouse in Australia to compare in the pokies/gambling stakes to mine?? G69 may know for sure. But I think we have like 150 odd. And a TAB.

markTHEblake
9th May 2009, 10:50 PM
Would there be a clubhouse in Australia to compare in the pokies/gambling stakes to mine?? .

City is probably one of the richest golf, clubs i have ever seen, Coolangatta Tweed Heads does rival it, plus it has a Mcdonalds.

and then there is Horton Park with $7 million cash in the bank.

mike
9th May 2009, 11:11 PM
Relatively cheap membership here, only $400 a year. Comp fees are $11. BUT we have to pay $8 for a social hit. Something I've always disagreed with.
As a result, very few members actually play social golf. Myself included.

I've made suggestions in the past to at least decrease the social green fees for members, but the committees at the time thought I was nuts.

Grunt
10th May 2009, 06:18 AM
Not sure about QLD but the clubs here in NSW are doing it pretty tough. The Pokie tax laws mean the old cash cow of pokies is pretty well gone.
G69 would now how much it has changed plans that golf clubs had, Wallacia, for example has put any more golf course development on hold.

I think almost all of the middle class golf clubs here in Sydney charge like what was previously said "a greens/water levy" for social play. They are dropping membership prices to attract members, hardly any have joining fees any more or offer 15 months for 12.

Do we want all clubs to go under or pay more for membership just to save a few bucks for a social round?

Andrew
10th May 2009, 07:56 AM
What a crock of shit..... If I am a member somwhere I would not pay anything to play 9 holes of an afternoon. We have a $10 comp fee but no social hit surcharge/assf*ck.

Your post says it all, DC. :shock:

It's pretty simple at Newcastle GC. You just consider the membership to be $2500. As Brisvegas said, it's the cheapest top 20 course in the country.

In the end, you don't have to join any club you don't want to.

Minor_Threat
10th May 2009, 08:00 AM
Some great discussion here and I have come to conclusion that it is in a fact cheap membership for a course Ranked #15* in Australia. The other positive is the fact that they have no pokies and dont rely on the revenue generated by these to keep viable.

I am going to go ahead with signing up. Can't wait to get back amongst it! I better start hitting it straight..


*Source 2008 March Golf Digest

Hux
10th May 2009, 09:07 AM
Maybe pokies would mean you wouldn't have to pay green fees for social golf? :-)

In the end if the option if there to pay more and not pay the fees and you are comfortable with the extra $$ then its not too bad a deal. The cheaper rate probably appeals to those that want to be members on a good course but will only play once a week if they are lucky (plenty of us like that).

u8ergolfer
10th May 2009, 10:14 AM
I am not one for the user pay principal of golf fees, everyone pays up front for the priveledge, and you get full use of the amenity.

If you make the decision to join a club, you should use it, and the benefits that come with it. if you choose to utilise this 7 days a week then good on you. if you only choose once a month or so, well that's your prerogative, but these folk need to realise that courses need to be maintained 365 days a year, not once a week or once a month, if that's all they play.

The fact that someone is using it more than others should not be part of a debate like this, and its short sighted committees around they place that have made it so.

The counter to this social fee for members who utilise the course for social golf scenario is the 'Bar Levy"that some clubs like to bill members with. Thsi quite simply penalises those who don't frequent their club or use its house facilities either. once again it is a fee that should not be icurred as a proxy of club membership.

I support my club in many,many ways and I don't like either.

Charge me a FULL FEE every year that inlcudes a social golf component, and a bar levy if you must, but don't make me shove my hand in my pocket every time I stroll down there for a quick few holes in the arvo.

Webster
10th May 2009, 10:23 AM
very well said u8'er, although I disagree regarding the "bar levy" which is simply a prepayment for food and beverage (at my club) which relieves the staff from having to deal with change on a daily basis.

Daves
10th May 2009, 10:24 AM
We don't have green fees for members. However, as long as it is openly disclosed, and it is not just a money grab, I don't have an issue with it in principle.

goughy
10th May 2009, 10:57 AM
I understand all the comments regarding not having to pay 'social' golf fees if you're a member! In a fashion I don't mind it at city because our yearly fees are so cheap, like $350. But somehow I doubt ours is a poor club. They're putting in a motel at the moment above the 3rd tee I think!!

Andrew
10th May 2009, 11:08 AM
I am not one for the user pay principal of golf fees, everyone pays up front for the priveledge, and you get full use of the amenity.

If you make the decision to join a club, you should use it, and the benefits that come with it. if you choose to utilise this 7 days a week then good on you. if you only choose once a month or so, well that's your prerogative, but these folk need to realise that courses need to be maintained 365 days a year, not once a week or once a month, if that's all they play.

The fact that someone is using it more than others should not be part of a debate like this, and its short sighted committees around they place that have made it so.

The counter to this social fee for members who utilise the course for social golf scenario is the 'Bar Levy"that some clubs like to bill members with. Thsi quite simply penalises those who don't frequent their club or use its house facilities either. once again it is a fee that should not be icurred as a proxy of club membership.

I support my club in many,many ways and I don't like either.

Charge me a FULL FEE every year that inlcudes a social golf component, and a bar levy if you must, but don't make me shove my hand in my pocket every time I stroll down there for a quick few holes in the arvo.

Do you have 5 or 6 day memberships at your club?

Andrew
10th May 2009, 11:41 AM
I just went back & read some of the posts again. This is great stuff u8er.


Newcastle = Stockton in the local vernacular doesn't it..

Newcastle GC is in Stockon, you are correct. I'm not sure what you point is.

Good Course, but what a total piss take..Its a city whose roots are tied to the Steel and Coal industry..

So by your logic Australia's roots are tied to convicts.

Stockon?, well for the bosses.Wankon for the rest...so from your original post..can I pose the question..The Phlebs subsidise the rest do they???

Who are the Phlebs in this case?

I'd find another more egalitarian club.........pay for what you use, no more, no less.....

I thought you didn't agree with 'pay for what you use


Pretty funny stuff u8er.

u8ergolfer
10th May 2009, 11:58 AM
I don't go with the principal of 5/6 days either...

Memberships are a privelege thing, not a right thing, and the often quoted scenario is that those 5/6 day members have foregone their 'right' to golf on certain days..no they haven't - they've foregone their playing priveleges..

If you get into the nitty gritty of fee structure, then the component for greens maintenance should be a 365 day factor regardless of any class of membership, but I'm sure most clubs work it out on a 5/7th or 6/7th rate.

Most clubs I know still dedicate a % of their daily competition fee towards course admin/ greens administration or however they want to word it. So ultimately on your busiest day ( saturday?) most golfers are still subisdising the course maintenance costs. Thus a 5/6 day member couldn't possible contribute this way at all, so in many respects they are still getting off lightly..

In a pefect world, you'd only have two classes of members, Full and Junior, single competiton fee, all Full emmbers have voting rights, and no administration fee is deducted from daily competitions (All funds raised end up in the trophy account).

All Competitions are Mens and Womens competitions. prize disbursement dictated by the number of respective starters, and ratified by a vote at the AGM, if the women wish to forgoe competitions on Saturday, then the men forgoe one on Tuesday or Wedensday.

Andrew
10th May 2009, 12:20 PM
I don't go with the principal of 5/6 days either...


I'd find another more egalitarian club.........pay for what you use, no more, no less.....

So your club has 5 & 6 day membership, but you are still a member there. You need to practice what you preach & find a more egalitarian club.

Memberships are a privelege thing, not a right thing, and the often quoted scenario is that those 5/6 day members have foregone their 'right' to golf on certain days..no they haven't - they've foregone their playing priveleges..

Now you are saying golf is only for the privileged, but I thought you were worried about the plebs before

If you get into the nitty gritty of fee structure, then the component for greens maintenance should be a 365 day factor regardless of any class of membership, but I'm sure most clubs work it out on a 5/7th or 6/7th rate.

Most clubs I know still dedicate a % of their daily competition fee towards course admin/ greens administration or however they want to word it. So ultimately on your busiest day ( saturday?) most golfers are still subisdising the course maintenance costs. Thus a 5/6 day member couldn't possible contribute this way at all, so in many respects they are still getting off lightly..

At Newcastle GC no comp fees are used for course admin or maintenance

In a pefect world, you'd only have two classes of members, Full and Junior,

Juniors use the course as much as full members. In your perfect world, why should they pay less

single competiton fee, all Full emmbers have voting rights, and no administration fee is deducted from daily competitions (All funds raised end up in the trophy account).

All Competitions are Mens and Womens competitions. prize disbursement dictated by the number of respective starters, and ratified by a vote at the AGM, if the women wish to forgoe competitions on Saturday, then the men forgoe one on Tuesday or Wedensday.

So full members only get 6 & a half days of use.


Where are you a member?

Fishman Dan
10th May 2009, 12:40 PM
$Zilch at Casino. Comp fees are about $12.

The council charges Gordon GC for every player, member or not. Therefore our comp rates are high, and you pay for social golf. The club actually makes a loss per player during a comp, because the council charges about $1 more than we are charged in comp fees. Disgraceful situation.

u8ergolfer
10th May 2009, 12:40 PM
The term privelege was defined by the court, as a club committee (and this across the board in the registerd club industry) couldn't remove the a 'rights' of a member if they needed to, so most consititions refer to privileges not rights..note I said privileges, not "the privileged" as you claim. You have playing privileges, not 'rights'

Why would I give up my membership of somewhere if I don't like the decision to introduce different classes of members? I don't agree when they put the bar prices up either, but they do it.

If no component of comp fee is contributed to course admin then great..They've got the mix right haven't they?

Juniors = Club Future, and charging them a proportional fee should instill some pride in the 'value' of their membership.

Andrew
10th May 2009, 12:51 PM
Why would I give up my membership of somewhere if I don't like the decision to introduce different classes of members?

Just going off your previous quote about finding an egalitarian club

Don't worry u8er, I actually agree with you on most of the things you have said. I'm just having a bit of a wind up because I was surprised/amused at how passionate you were about a club you are not involved with.

BTW, you still haven't answered many of the questions like which club you are a member of. :wink:

u8ergolfer
10th May 2009, 12:59 PM
The general thrust was a jibe about the constant actions of committees all over the place that find its easier to introduce fees, levies or whatever onto guys like us who probably use their golfing privileges the most..

Most, from GA and State Associations down, would be better off trying to arrest declining membership levels..

markTHEblake
10th May 2009, 01:22 PM
In a pefect world, you'd only have two classes of members, Full and Junior, single competiton fee, all Full emmbers have voting rights, and no administration fee is deducted from daily competitions

But its not a perfect world and not everybody has the same perception of value for money, and very few people are willing to overpay for what that use, whether they can afford it or not.

That is why golf clubs have different levels of membership. If they had only one class, they would not attract as many members.

Golfers grizzle every time the membership fees go up, the beer prices go up, and when the greens dont roll as well as they used to.

If your club is asking for $2 each time you want to sneak out on the course in the evening, perhaps one should be asking what they can do to help the clubs financial position. A good one is to sing the praises of your club rather than whinging about their decisions, that will attract new members for a start.

Andrew
10th May 2009, 02:16 PM
The general thrust was a jibe about the constant actions of committees all over the place that find its easier to introduce fees, levies or whatever onto guys like us who probably use their golfing privileges the most..

Most, from GA and State Associations down, would be better off trying to arrest declining membership levels..

I understand what you are saying. I come from the perspective of seeing it work well at Newcastle for quite a few years now. A large number of members take up the ‘pre-paid green fees’ option & see their full membership subs as being $2500, not $1650 + $850.

The other 2 clubs I’m a member of both have different systems again, neither of which I believe work as well as Newcastle GC.

Of course Newcastle is a members club. I could see the green fee system not working so well at courses that are owned by an outside entity or where non-golfing clubs have an interest in the running of the golf club or golf course.

u8ergolfer
10th May 2009, 03:43 PM
Often I see the member green fee concept at some clubs drive away the social golfing member, yet many of the same clubs then go on to offer an afternoon discount / after 3pm discount to social green fee golfers.

Webster
10th May 2009, 03:58 PM
Andrew, does Newcastle have this system partly due to the high number of members I assume they have in Sydney, and therefore dont play as much as would normally be the case in they were closer?

Ned
10th May 2009, 04:00 PM
Mareeba GC

$400 per year subscription (plus insurance levy, affiliation fees)

$140 for annual green fees. (Doesnt cover comp games)

$$7 per ember for social round.

$4 per member after 4pm.

$110 per year for Motorised buggy shed.

$12 per member for comp fees.

In every comp / social round fee (whether member or social player) the Club includes $1 for a course development fee. This money is set aside so if they apply for a significant grant or want to purchase something for the course they include these funds.


These are close to the actuals as I dont have a fixtures book handy

u8ergolfer
10th May 2009, 04:30 PM
Bit off topic, but in terms of a fee per golfer what about the 29 bucks per player the NSWGA are raking at the moment..what are the affilitation fees of other state associations like?

Ned
10th May 2009, 04:40 PM
Golflink $2.75

District Fee $14

Golf Qld $15.24

Golf Australia $11

Andrew
10th May 2009, 04:50 PM
Andrew, does Newcastle have this system partly due to the high number of members I assume they have in Sydney, and therefore dont play as much as would normally be the case in they were closer?

I’m not sure, Jack, but it may have had some influence. We have quite a few Sydney members, as well as a reasonable number of interstate members & a surprising number of international members, mostly from the UK.

Country members aren’t restricted as to how many games they can play per year, so the system works well for the members & the club no matter whether country members play a lot of very little.

senecio
10th May 2009, 06:11 PM
This thread has got my interest as I recently received the following letter from my club.

".... a special general meeting is to be convened on Tuesday 19 May 2009 to discuss and vote on a proposal that all current members - in all categories of membership - with the exception of junior, cadet and honorary members be required to pay an amount of $500 as a loan to the club."

It goes on to say that the loan will be used to clear debt and to ensure that course works would be undertaken as planned. It also details that the club intends to repay the loan as a $100 a year reduction in subs over 7 years (interest) .



What is everyones thoughts on this scenario?

razaar
10th May 2009, 06:15 PM
The point is - what do you think about it? Should be an interesting special meeting.

markTHEblake
10th May 2009, 06:18 PM
What is everyones thoughts on this scenario?

my thoughts are that most of the members will be narrow minded, the motion will fail, the club will continue to struggle and the same members will complain about the club not improving.

u8ergolfer
10th May 2009, 06:29 PM
This thread has got my interest as I recently received the following letter from my club.

".... a special general meeting is to be convened on Tuesday 19 May 2009 to discuss and vote on a proposal that all current members - in all categories of membership - with the exception of junior, cadet and honorary members be required to pay an amount of $500 as a loan to the club."

It goes on to say that the loan will be used to clear debt and to ensure that course works would be undertaken as planned. It also details that the club intends to repay the loan as a $100 a year reduction in subs over 7 years (interest) .



What is everyones thoughts on this scenario?


Do they propose to table a business model for next Yr, a 5 yr plan, a proposal for capital works, are they looking at any % yield increases in any or all facets of the business? and if they are (they should be) what are the managers/directors plans or intentions to ensure the budgetary yield targets are met.

Perhaps the question should be put: Are they retiring the debt for cashflow's sake or is the current club struggling to repay what it owes, Are we talking insolvency? if so, how close are they to that point because a directors fiduciary duty is to NOT trade while insolvent. ASIC rules apply here.

Will a loan raising program be sufficient? like any investment prospectus, explore, read and don't be frightened to ask questions before you 'fess up your hard earned $$.

senecio
10th May 2009, 06:54 PM
Personally, I am for it and hope it gets through. It is a members owned course and we must take responsibility for its future.

Everything that u8ergolfer said, I agree with. I want to see what the plan is for the future before I vote for it. I am more concerned that being in a working class area, the majority of members simply can't afford it and therefore it won't get passed.

Either way, it will be an interesting meeting. I have never felt compelled to get involved with my own club before.

I do now.

razaar
10th May 2009, 07:05 PM
Is this the same club that was supposedly giving new members a new set of clubs for signing up a few years ago?

senecio
10th May 2009, 07:17 PM
No its not.

It's Carbrook Golf Club. That was Logan City.

http://www.carbrookgolfclub.com.au/

razaar
10th May 2009, 07:35 PM
Thanks for that...love the club's web site. Hope everything works out for the club, it is a good track.

Moe Norman
10th May 2009, 08:49 PM
If my club offered a deal where subs are significantly lower and then I paid $10 for each social hit I'd probably take it up, as I think I'd be better off financially for sure. I wouldn't want to actually put my hand in my pocket though, and would imagine it would just be added to my account - the only cash I use at my club is to pay comp fees and pay losing bets (often!)

That said, I think it would be to the detriment of the club if such a system was introduced.

u8ergolfer
10th May 2009, 09:19 PM
I will counter my previous advice with the following.. costs and worth are one thing, BUT HOW MUCH DO YOU LOVE YOUR CLUB? that's were you and other members need to be vis a vis financial future.

another thing.. how many of your current board of directors are really qualified to run a modern business, and not just good guys around the clubhouse?

What your directors are asking for is a debenture, in my book nearly the last chance hotel of a board that doesn't know any different

I would put it to you that you probably have a bunch of good guys as directors, and you've had that type for many,many years..not those whose head is around business and knows what it takes to survive, indeed be profitable at a club level..

If successful, fresh blood, knowledge, and initiative needs to appear on the board.. not the same old bunch of directors..with a potential cash injection like this, some may need to go..

markTHEblake
10th May 2009, 10:47 PM
I would put it to you ...

for goodness sake stop crucifying them when you dont any background on what they have been planing.

for all you know the Board has already done all those things. In my experience no club ever goes down such a path lightly, and all clubs in qld (or is it Australia?) is being guided by the State golf associations with strategic planning advice to ensure survival.

BrisVegas
11th May 2009, 06:24 AM
If my club offered a deal where subs are significantly lower and then I paid $10 for each social hit I'd probably take it up, as I think I'd be better off financially for sure.

That's the type of arrangement I've been pushing for since I joined the committee at my club. I would play probably 40 comp rounds at my course over the year, so in dollar terms it is terrible value FOR ME. The retired millionaires that play 5-6 times a week are getting great value at present, however. At least we have introduced monthly payment system, so the pain is spread out over the year.

We are bringing in a 5-day membership and also a no-joining fee option where a higher annual sub is paid for a number of years. The joining fee is the major barrier to entry to the better clubs around the place, imo. Once that is out of the way, people can generally find a way to afford the annual/monthly fees.

u8ergolfer
11th May 2009, 06:33 AM
[quote=markTHEblake;315397]for goodness sake stop crucifying them when you dont any background on what they have been planing.
quote]

THat why I asked him in my first post what did they have in plan, in writing and with the financial modelling in place. As a member he's entitled to see that detail up front..

Like any investment prospectus, before you fess up $$ you should look at the detail, plans and model so you know what they want to achieve.

$500 per member and on their proposal they're gunna give 700 back in kind over 5 years as a subs reduction, then there must be a model there to show them members exactly HOW it will happen, not HOPE it will happen.

What level of debt is the club in now?

If it all goes pear shaped, who loses out here. Betya the directors have indemnity insurance, but the $500 per member wont be returned.

As for crucifying them.. well..part of the problem with clubs in general over many years is their inability to run as they should.. poor direction, hamstrung management..the poor decisions made over plenty of years start to all add up.

PeteyD
11th May 2009, 07:13 AM
Pretty generic comments U8er. Carbrook seems to be going in the right direction. A lot of work done there recently, including some government funded additions to the clubhouse. If I was a member i'd want to know what the loan was for, and how the reduced subs would be funded.

u8ergolfer
11th May 2009, 07:25 AM
quick look at the website ..OK.. is this what they are raising funds for?

"While the recognition the club has recently achieved is a testament to the excellent course layout and condition, the Green's Committee have planned the following improvements which will be implemented over 2007 - 2010.
A new, expanded irrigation system
A Bunker Rebuilding Program
A Course-Machinery Management Plan (continuous upgrading)
A Course-Staff Education Program"

if you have say 800 members @ $500 per head, then 400K doesn't seem a lot..

But..

Does the club still have unused land?

As a member do you guys get free range balls on the range?

Free use of the clubhouse for private functions for members seems very generous..

u8ergolfer
11th May 2009, 07:33 AM
Pretty generic comments U8er. Carbrook seems to be going in the right direction. A lot of work done there recently, including some government funded additions to the clubhouse. If I was a member i'd want to know what the loan was for, and how the reduced subs would be funded.


yes pretty generic..

take the view that they need a 400k jolt of funds to do something in the immediate term, then I would be asking questions about why they need it now..

If the place is bouyant, but cashfow is diminishing then wouldn't you be like most business in the current climate and postpone or reduce your cap works program to a level within the club's current trading means until cashflow improves?

razaar
11th May 2009, 07:37 AM
This thread has got my interest as I recently received the following letter from my club.

".... a special general meeting is to be convened on Tuesday 19 May 2009 to discuss and vote on a proposal that all current members - in all categories of membership - with the exception of junior, cadet and honorary members be required to pay an amount of $500 as a loan to the club."

It goes on to say that the loan will be used to clear debt and to ensure that course works would be undertaken as planned. It also details that the club intends to repay the loan as a $100 a year reduction in subs over 7 years (interest) .



What is everyones thoughts on this scenario?
I would be asking what becomes of those members who will not or cannot contribute the additional $500, and will the $500 or residual amount be refunded if a member leaves within the 5 year period.

senecio
11th May 2009, 07:57 AM
Here's my take on it so far.

As PeteyD stated, Carbrook is a club with a relatively positive future. The course has consistently improved over the last few years and so has the member base. As is always the case, the club has had to incur debt to facilitate these improvements.

It now finds itself where the operating revenue is covering the debts, but leaving little to continue the improvement strategies. It is looking at a once off injection of funds to repay debt, hence lowering repayments and freeing up cash flow.

To qualify my earlier comments. I agree with the approach in principle, however I want to be repsented with a sound business plan before I put my money forward.

I'll have to wait for the meeting to see what is presented.

Captain Nemo
11th May 2009, 12:12 PM
Kogarah dont charge any social fees at all.
I jump on anytime of the day and play as much as i want, only exceptions are obviously sat's and wed's mens comp days.
Most other days its free range of the course!

markTHEblake
11th May 2009, 07:07 PM
THat why I asked him in my first post what did they have in plan, in writing and with the financial modelling in place. As a member he's entitled to see that detail up front..

well its plainly bleeding obvious that all that information will be presented to the members at the SGM.


As for crucifying them.. well..part of the problem with clubs in general over many years is their inability to run as they should.. poor direction, hamstrung management..the poor decisions made over plenty of years start to all add up.

So what. That means nothing, you labelled the club as poorly run without knowing anything about them.

AlexMc
15th May 2009, 06:51 PM
No Green Fees at Dubbo. Comp is $14.

And I have to say...Newcastle's fees (including pre-paid social play) at around 3.5 times Dubbo's fees seems an absolute bargain for the quality of the course.

u8ergolfer
19th May 2009, 07:36 PM
Here's my take on it so far.

As PeteyD stated, Carbrook is a club with a relatively positive future. The course has consistently improved over the last few years and so has the member base. As is always the case, the club has had to incur debt to facilitate these improvements.

It now finds itself where the operating revenue is covering the debts, but leaving little to continue the improvement strategies. It is looking at a once off injection of funds to repay debt, hence lowering repayments and freeing up cash flow.

To qualify my earlier comments. I agree with the approach in principle, however I want to be repsented with a sound business plan before I put my money forward.

I'll have to wait for the meeting to see what is presented.

So what happened?

adlo
25th May 2009, 08:47 PM
After reading an article in Aust Golf Digest about joining fees and subs for premium golf courses in Oz.....

Newcastle appear to have every right to charge green fees. Their subs and noms are WAY below the going rate for a premium Oz course. Some of those courses fees gave me a bit of a fright.

just
25th May 2009, 08:56 PM
After Andrew's explanation I think they probably have their fee structure about right. Its worth to keep in mind though, that while it may be a "premium" course (which I suspect means different things to different people), its still captive to its market. It's in a regional town for a start and a regional town thats not overly endowed with wealthy citizens. I would have doubts it could sustain much more than it charges.

razaar
25th May 2009, 08:58 PM
After reading an article in Aust Golf Digest about joining fees and subs for premium golf courses in Oz.....

Newcastle appear to have every right to charge green fees. Their subs and noms are WAY below the going rate for a premium Oz course. Some of those courses fees gave me a bit of a fright.
Yep Aussies get their golf cheap compared to other overseas countries.

adlo
25th May 2009, 09:00 PM
After Andrew's explanation I think they probably have their fee structure about right. Its worth to keep in mind though, that while it may be a "premium" course (which I suspect means different things to different people), its still captive to its market. It's in a regional town for a start and a regional town thats not overly endowed with wealthy citizens. I would have doubts it could sustain much more than it charges.
Kennedy Bay has a similar issue in that it is way underpriced for the quality of the course. It is surrounded by bogans like Johnny Canuck and the like.

just
25th May 2009, 09:07 PM
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1285/1318113786_d58eedc50d.jpg?v=1189048593

adlo
25th May 2009, 09:12 PM
Exactly

poidda
26th May 2009, 06:26 AM
Rockhampton's the same. It's fees are the same as I paid 15 years ago. All the old bastards always oppose any rise in fees, and they can't afford to piss them off as there are no young members. Average age of members up there these days is 59.

BrisVegas
26th May 2009, 07:54 AM
Kennedy Bay has a similar issue in that it is way underpriced for the quality of the course. It is surrounded by bogans like Johnny Canuck and the like.

I hear ya brother. :lol:

parlyboy
26th May 2009, 12:01 PM
Im about to join Gungahlin Lakes in Canberra, no extras as far as i know...

sms316
26th May 2009, 12:34 PM
No extras at Gungahlin. The membership leaves a lot to be desired though.

parlyboy
26th May 2009, 01:39 PM
No extras at Gungahlin. The membership leaves a lot to be desired though.

What do you mean by that sms?

I want to join in June and they will waive $200 fee if 2 people join at the same time. I cant find anyone who wants to join???

KNOW ANYONE?

You play there sms?

parlyboy
26th May 2009, 01:40 PM
And yes im new here...my 3rd post....yay!

sms316
26th May 2009, 01:41 PM
I was waiting for wbennett to reply first. He is a member there (and why I was baiting the members).

It's a nice enough course, which is always in good condition.

Send Benno a PM. He might know someone who is about to join.

parlyboy
26th May 2009, 03:23 PM
ok cheers mate...