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Courty
23rd April 2009, 06:38 PM
At the risk of copping a hiding for trying to discuss the subject on these forums, I'd like to learn a little about golf course architecture. Currently, I don't know enough about the subject to even form an opinion on any layout or hole. I simply assess the hole based on what's in front of me, and take one shot at a time.

I may or may not be right, but what I have heard on the matter gives me the impression that there is no right or wrong in course design, but that it all comes down to individual opinions (if everyone thought it was a bad hole, why would it have been built? ).

I know there are forums devoted entirely to the subject, but they seem to be places where you go when you already know plenty about the subject.

I know we have some members who are very-well credentialled to advise on the subject, and I'd like to draw on their expertise to gain more understanding. What I'm looking for is some fundamentals so I can at least start to form my own opinion.

Feel free to post pics as examples.

sms316
23rd April 2009, 06:43 PM
Good thread. NSW gives me wood, but I've never really understood why.

Scottt
23rd April 2009, 06:43 PM
There are some great books, Courty, if you're interested.

Courty
23rd April 2009, 06:45 PM
There are some great books, Courty, if you're interested.

I know there's plenty of literature, but I really struggle with anything non-fiction. I just want some pointers.

adlo
23rd April 2009, 06:49 PM
Jump on Golf Club Atlas and read a heap of the pictorial reviews or the threads with pics that the members start. You don't need to know crap, just hop on and listen to what is said. See what courses are ridiculed for poor architecture and what courses are applauded for quality architecture and you'll learn a heap.

Andrew's review of Newcastle GC is a great place to start.

razaar
23rd April 2009, 06:57 PM
Here you are Courty...nine decades of everything to do with course matters from the USGA records.. http://turf.lib.msu.edu/gsr/

Scottt
23rd April 2009, 07:05 PM
Jump on Golf Club Atlas and read a heap of the pictorial reviews or the threads with pics that the members start. You don't need to know crap, just hop on and listen to what is said. See what courses are ridiculed for poor architecture and what courses are applauded for quality architecture and you'll learn a heap.

Andrew's review of Newcastle GC is a great place to start.

You mean the one in Courses by Country? I think only the pics are Andrew's. My understanding (which might be wrong) is that Ran writes all those reviews.

adlo
23rd April 2009, 07:07 PM
Yeah, I mean that, but hasn't Andrew done a review on Ozgolf or TGF for Newcastle??

Moe Norman
23rd April 2009, 08:55 PM
GCA is not a place to go to learn imo, there is alot of rubbish posted on there and alot of back slapping and trophy hunting as well.

Learn yourself Courty, next time you play - assess what is in front of you and then take the next step. Don't just think how you will play it, think how your 20 handicapper mate would play it, think about how it would play under different conditions, think about what you would change to make it more interesting, think about how the architect has finished at this point etc etc

If you're not into books like Anatomy of a Golf Course and Grounds for Golf as examples, then read other golf books that involve more story telling, but are still on the subject of golf courses. You will enjoy them much more, I have a massive collection if you were interested in borrowing some.

Courty
23rd April 2009, 09:22 PM
The funny thing about golf course architecture is that there really is no right or wrong..just opinions.

Whatever is thrown in front of you its your job to negotiate your way to the green in the least amount of shots.

Thanks, that confirms my first thoughts.


Whilst there is really no right and wrong, there is good and bad.

Now we're getting to the guts of it. What are some of the basic elements that you would consider when forming an opinion on a particular hole?

Eg. I'll always remember Marcel complaining about some mounds behind the 9th green at Royal Adelaide when we played there. I recall looking at them and thinking that unless I hit my ball into them, I wouldn't have even noticed them. He started explaining why, but my eyes glazed over. I'd like to understand why he thought they were rubbish.

markTHEblake
23rd April 2009, 09:35 PM
Courty, my understanding of it is that it is based around risk/reward.
like the closer you hit to a hazard (or over it) gives you the better line to the green.

Some of the criticisms of bad holes, is that there is no reward for the risks apparent.

for the classic example of strategy, google "Redan"

Andrew
23rd April 2009, 09:38 PM
The fundamentals of golf course architecture are ‘lines of play’ & ‘options’. When you stand on the tee are you offered various option of line & length of play & how well does each of them work? Does the green complex offer a variety of lines of approach? Is the green best approached from one side of the fairway & are the fairway hazards placed accordingly?

Historically, The Old Course at St Andrews set the precedent of multiple lines of play & North Berwick (West) established the placing of hazards diagonal to the line of play. The architectural principles from these two courses have been used to design most of the great courses around the world.

AndyP
24th April 2009, 09:36 AM
I can understand the risk and reward concept and said something similar to Courty when we were discussing it recently. I know when something seems dumb.

However, I don't really think about the architecture much while playing. It doesn't come naturally like it does to others.

Boonie
24th April 2009, 11:07 AM
Courty,

When you finish playing a hole, look back down the hole.

Is there a spot on the fairway that would have given you a real advantage to hit into the green from?

If so, what decision did you have to make back at the tee to get to that spot? and what were the risks you had to take to get there?

It's a good and basic way to start looking at the strategy of golf holes.

Moe Norman
24th April 2009, 06:33 PM
the mounding stuff is just an aesthetic thing, but can also effect play sometimes too.

http://www.capitalgolfclub.com/low_res/holeimagesbig/17hole_big.jpg

This is an example of horrible mounding that would make most people gag.

Scottt
24th April 2009, 06:35 PM
Unless it was a natural dune, at which point they would

http://th05.deviantart.com/fs39/300W/f/2008/344/c/9/I_jizz_in_my_pants_by_HOLIMOUNT.jpg

Interestingly, I was looking at some pics of the Jockey Club, and Dr Mac built some mounds there that TWP would be proud of :lol:

Moe Norman
24th April 2009, 06:49 PM
Peter Thomson has been known to bury tree stumps under mounds, so when the next archi comes along to 'fix' his work, they start flattening out mounds and run into tree stumps :shock:

Courty
30th April 2009, 07:47 PM
I tried the whole "looking back down the hole from the green" thing at Cairns, but it didn't teach me anything new as I've already approached every green from every conceivable angle and know the course like the back of my hand. I'm pretty much on autopilot these days with how I chose to play each hole.

Would it be a fair comment to say I may appreciate this stuff more on a less familiar course?

Moe Norman
30th April 2009, 08:06 PM
are there any holes at Cairns you don't like?

If so, do you not like them because they don't suit your game - or do you not like them because you stand on the tee and no matter what the day or conditions - it asks you to hit the same shot?

The move on from there.

Courty
30th April 2009, 08:27 PM
are there any holes at Cairns you don't like?

If so, do you not like them because they don't suit your game - or do you not like them because you stand on the tee and no matter what the day or conditions - it asks you to hit the same shot?

The move on from there.

There aren't any holes that I detest. There are, however, a few that I struggle to score well on at times. It partly comes down to not having a club that plays the particular distance required, but a recent purchase from these very forums was made with that very distance in mind. 8)

haysey
30th April 2009, 08:42 PM
There aren't any holes that I detest. There are, however, a few that I struggle to score well on at times. It partly comes down to not having a club that plays the particular distance required, but a recent purchase from these very forums was made with that very distance in mind. 8)

Are you talking about 14 and 16? Is it particularly good architecture to remove the option of hitting driver?

Scottt
30th April 2009, 08:45 PM
Andrew has a saying that I particularly like, something along the lines of "you should never take driver out of the hands of an idiot". :lol:

BrisVegas
30th April 2009, 08:54 PM
There aren't any holes that I detest. There are, however, a few that I struggle to score well on at times. It partly comes down to not having a club that plays the particular distance required, but a recent purchase from these very forums was made with that very distance in mind. 8)


courty - take the ho goggles off before you start thinking about architecture!

Courty
30th April 2009, 08:55 PM
Are you talking about 14 and 16? Is it particularly good architecture to remove the option of hitting driver?

Yep. More 16 than 14. It's pretty obvious to me how to play them both, I just don't do it well. :oops:

Andrew
30th April 2009, 08:58 PM
Andrew has a saying that I particularly like, something along the lines of "you should never take driver out of the hands of an idiot". :lol:

I prefer the word fool instead of idiot, but you get the gist.

Every par 4 & par 5 in the world should allow, even entice, the golfer to take driver off the tee, even if it’s the absolute wrong club. In my opinion, there needs to be an earth shattering reason to block a fairway off at less that 250m.

Courty,

From your first post it was a little unclear what sort of information you were seeking. When you talk about fundamentals, are there any specific questions about designs, courses, holes or the reasoning behind a particular concept that you would like to raise for us to discuss? That may be the most helpful way for yourself & probably helpful for us all.

haysey
30th April 2009, 09:05 PM
Andrew has a saying that I particularly like, something along the lines of "you should never take driver out of the hands of an idiot". :lol:


That's what I was looking for;) No wonder I keep encouraging Courty to hit driver:D

AndyP
30th April 2009, 11:19 PM
In my opinion, there needs to be an earth shattering reason to block a fairway off at less that 250m.The 6th(?)-Elephant Graveyard at Camden Lakeside was a strange hole.

Scottt
30th April 2009, 11:26 PM
Does it still have bunkers in the mounds, Andy? I had heard they were going to be filled.

AndyP
30th April 2009, 11:40 PM
They are still there, but on the green side of the slopes for whatever reason. I didn't even know they were there until I got up to them.

Courty
1st May 2009, 04:59 AM
Courty,
From your first post it was a little unclear what sort of information you were seeking. When you talk about fundamentals, are there any specific questions about designs, courses, holes or the reasoning behind a particular concept that you would like to raise for us to discuss? That may be the most helpful way for yourself & probably helpful for us all.

Well no, there isn't anything specific. I know (knew) absolutely zilch about architecture, and want to know some basics to get me started.
How about this for starters... if a designer had a blank canvas, a straight, flat 350m long piece of land to build a par 4, how would he approach the design? Where would he place hazards & why? How would he position the green 'complex' and why? I know that there are no hard and fast answers to these questions, but what sort of things are they likely to consider, and what elements of 'poor design' will they try to avoid?

Andrew
1st May 2009, 10:06 PM
How about this for starters... if a designer had a blank canvas, a straight, flat 350m long piece of land to build a par 4, how would he approach the design? Where would he place hazards & why? How would he position the green 'complex' and why?
If there is absolutely nothing in the topography & no natural hazards the easiest thing to do is face the green to favour one side of the fairway & possibly bunker that side of the fairway.

This is an extremely rough drawing, but it gives you an idea of what I’m talking about.

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i317/Zarm/Others/Par4.jpg

The green faces the left side of the fairway where the fairway bunker is. (A) is the ideal line to the green that requires the drive to take on the fairway bunker. (B) is the safe drive, but leaves the golfer with the tougher shot to the green. (C) is the centre line of the green.

A small amount of excavation would see the middle of the fairway slope to the right so the golfer attempting to drive to (A) has to be truly committed to the task. A drive to the centre of the fairway would end up at (B).

The green would slope slightly to the left making it difficult to hold the green from (B) unless the ball is struck perfectly. A small drop off back left of the green means distance control from (B) is extremely important.

From (A) there is a real chance of birdie. From (B) par is difficult but bogey is easy.

adlo
1st May 2009, 11:18 PM
Question: if it so simple to plan a great hole like that Andrew, why are there so many shite golf holes being built by "architects"?

Your hole is simple and I could see myself playing it over and over and being presented with options and challenges. Good stuff Andrew.

Andrew
2nd May 2009, 06:27 AM
Question: if it so simple to plan a great hole like that Andrew, why are there so many shite golf holes being built by "architects"?

Your hole is simple and I could see myself playing it over and over and being presented with options and challenges. Good stuff Andrew.
Yeah, and it took me 5 minutes. I could design a course in an hour & a half. :lol:

The big difference I had no existing topography to work with & didn't have to consider the most important part - the routing. Finding 18 existing green sites on a new property & what holes should run to them, etc.

The other thing is, my ideas would not be flash enough for many developers these days. If I have time I'll do my 'housing development Troon management' version later.

PeteyD
2nd May 2009, 06:32 AM
Yea, where are the huge pond, long beach bunker and buried elephants?

That is a great explanation Andrew, thanks.

Andrew
2nd May 2009, 08:13 AM
This is the same hole, but after the Tom Fazio ‘make-over’ for the Verizon International Heritage Transitions Classic Tournament. The course is now called the Courty Springs Desert Links Golf & Country Club.

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i317/Zarm/Others/Fazio.jpg

This is the 18th hole so obviously we need a large lake. It’s still a par 4, but now it measures 450m because a truly great course needs the longest ‘mother’ of a hole to finish. The beach bunker is mandatory & part of the design contract with the developers & the TV network so the commentators will have something to talk about on the last day when there is only 3 groups left on the course & they start ‘umming’ & ‘arrhhing’ like a stunned Antelope in the headlights of a Hummer.

The green has 78 different borrows on it. I’m not sure if they mean anything, but I designed it by crumpling up a piece of paper & leaving on my kitchen floor for a day until it uncrumpled so I could see where to put the slopes.

The pot bunker in front of the green connects the design to its Scottish traditions. This is a traditional desert links layout where we only had to move 1,046,860 cubic metres of soil to transform this sewerage deposit wetland swamp into the untouched natural beauty it is today.

The feature tree is a Southern Elm similar to the type of tree the great confederate General Stonewall Jackson may have planted if he ever set foot in Louisiana. It’s the symbol of the course & is on every bit of memorabilia that can be bought in the gift shop (formerly the pro shop). The tree actually blocks off the 2 bunkers short of the green, but they were only there for the sunset photo that graced the covers of Golf Digest, AWG (American Wanker Golf) & Links magazine.

On the left side of the fairway there is a creek that runs parallel to the lake, because creeks so often do that in nature.

Bunkers and a creek on the left & a lake on the right, ensuring that no strategy at all is required, defend the driving zone. We have paid particular attention to make sure all bunkers are in the rough.

Our fine crew of 45 greens staff keep the course looking that beautiful dark green that we know all courses should look like & ‘baby bottom’ soft (this is a new architectural term) so that even your topped 5 wood will stop on the green.

The cart path is painted dark green by our newly invented cart path-painting machine called The Inviso-Path. (Pat. Pen.)

adlo
2nd May 2009, 08:20 AM
All I can say is :lol:

Andrew
2nd May 2009, 08:27 AM
Adlo,

I reckon I could churn out 20 identical versions of this hole covering half the PGA Tour.

Now all I have to do is work out where to put the island green on the 17th & the rest designs itself. Lets face it; do the first 16 holes really matter?


BTW, I did this one because my wife is still in bed sleeping. I wonder if Fazio's wife (or Alice Dye) got up earlier would he design better courses.

adlo
2nd May 2009, 08:29 AM
Adlo,

I reckon I could churn out 20 identical versions of this hole covering half the PGA Tour.

Now all I have to do is work out where to put the island green on the 17th & the rest designs itself. Lets face it; do the first 16 holes really matter?

:smt038

So sad, but so true. So many Tour courses look SO bad.

I would like your comments on this classy quote I read on GCA....

My west coast pal Richard Choi suggested on the Fazio thread that there is a higher plane of golf course architecture that requires the player to solve a complex challenge.

Are you simply operating on the lower plane Andrew? ;)

Andrew
2nd May 2009, 08:35 AM
Are you simply operating on the lower plane Andrew? ;)

So low my plane hasn't taken off yet.

just
2nd May 2009, 11:50 AM
So many Tour courses look SO bad.

Thats not correct Adlo, they look good, they are scenic, its their playability, both in terms of degree of difficulty and ability to maintain interest, that is questionable.

And despite what GCA thinks, the great bulk of Joe Public don't mind it, and probably like it. Developers respond to what the public wants, whether or not you or I agree with it.

adlo
2nd May 2009, 04:24 PM
Just I would say a lot of the courses look OK, not that good. They are green and the bunkers are glowing white, but they are not that spectacular.

I agree with your comment about playability, most TPC courses are just point and shoot golf. Boring.

I know what you are saying about developers responding to what the public wants, but I am not sure I agree with you. I would say most developers grab a popular course designer and assume they will make a course the public likes. Sometimes it works, other times it doesn't. And believe me I know that we are the fussiest of the fussy around here (well apart from the TGF guys).

Scottt
2nd May 2009, 04:31 PM
How many TPC courses have you played, Adlo ;)

adlo
2nd May 2009, 04:55 PM
About fifty.

Seriously though... just saying what I can see from watching the TV or on the web. It is an opinion, not a fact.

BrettM
2nd May 2009, 06:37 PM
Courty,
The best architects are the ones who lay out the best possible golf course over the land available. The theme word these days is minimalist. During the 80’s and 90’s, some architects figured their course was better because they moved so many more million cubes of dirt compared to another. Some have done a very good job however when they moved millions of cubes, Paradise Palms being a good example. I’ve been on-site the past two days at two new courses under construction in NSW and VIC, both sites are different, one with natural movement which the architect has followed well, the other flat as anything (with contouring being introduced). Every site is different, but a great architect can really make the most of what is available.

Golf holes can be built on flat land well, and to give you some idea following are a few examples from Cypress Point when I was there in February this year.

No. 4 is relatively flat, but MacKenzie introduced strategy by his bunker placement. While golfers may stand on the tee and think I have to keep it left of the two bunkers on the right, he rewards golfers with the shortest shot, and most direct line in, if you can place your tee shot as close to those bunkers as possible.

The tee shot:


http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x67/kelbrett/P2140063.jpg


Placing your tee shot close to the bunkers opens up the green.


http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x67/kelbrett/P2140066.jpg


The play down the left side is also fine, however a longer approach shot is required. Anything too far left and you have to contend with the left greenside bunkers to a green which falls away from them. By playing close to the traps down the right, you can access any pin position on the green should you want to.


http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x67/kelbrett/P2140068.jpg


Another great hole, with contouring, is No. 8. Here, MacKenzie temps the player to hug the sand hill on the right with a fade from the tee. The reward is a flat landing area on the fairway.

The tee shot:


http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x67/kelbrett/P2140090.jpg


If played well, a small flat landing area then opens up the green for the approach.


http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x67/kelbrett/P2140094.jpg


If missed to the left, the tee shot runs down the slope and a more difficult approach is required (taken from No. 9 fairway)


http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x67/kelbrett/P2140106.jpg


Looking back from the green you can see how the fairway drops off.


http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x67/kelbrett/P2140100.jpg


His principles were the result of how the Old Course influenced him, and many others. You can play the hole a number of ways which is strategy. He provides the most direct routes for the player, but you have to take that risk. If it comes off, the reward is easier accessibility to the green. This is the principle of risk/reward.

BrettM
2nd May 2009, 06:42 PM
OK, I have NFI how to delete a message so I can try and fix it. Any ideas? Mods please?

AndyP
2nd May 2009, 07:36 PM
You can't delete a message, but you can edit it via the Edit button.

BrettM
2nd May 2009, 08:13 PM
Finally got it right.

Courty
2nd May 2009, 10:49 PM
Excellent work, thanks Brett.

Courty
3rd May 2009, 07:23 PM
Brett (and anyone else who has played at Cairns GC), what's your take on the 3rd at Cairns?

http://img522.imageshack.us/img522/3411/hole03oo5.png

To those of you who haven't played there, the fairway bunker is set in the top of a mound. Anything on a line just right of the bunker will kick/ feed down to the right behind the tall tree at 90 out, which in turn blocks out a clear shot at the green. The fairway is shaped around the right side of the bunker, but the only way to play the hole is to lay up short of the bunker, or try to carry it. Only a well struck (and accurate) drive by a longer hitter will carry the bunker, so everyone else is left with only 1 option: lay-up.

adlo
3rd May 2009, 07:32 PM
So effectively the majority of golfers are left with one option.... lay up. Silly golf hole.

Courty
3rd May 2009, 07:41 PM
So effectively the majority of golfers are left with one option.... lay up. Silly golf hole.

Pretty much....

My opinion has always been that it sucks, and that's with no design knowledge. Maybe 69er can offer some thoughts, too?

Bruce Dickinson
4th May 2009, 11:57 AM
Question: if it so simple to plan a great hole like that Andrew, why are there so many shite golf holes being built by "architects"?

Your hole is simple and I could see myself playing it over and over and being presented with options and challenges. Good stuff Andrew.
Adlo
The 3rd hole at Wembley seems to be similar in design, length and topography. The left hand fairway bunker was added to challenge the second shot from that side of the fairway.

Jono
4th May 2009, 11:58 AM
Chop the tree down ... :razz:

razaar
4th May 2009, 12:49 PM
Jono is right...either take out the tree keeping the same tee or put in a forward tee to make the carry 190 - 200 metres. Didn't this hole used to be a par-5 or long par-4?

haysey
4th May 2009, 01:06 PM
Brett (and anyone else who has played at Cairns GC), what's your take on the 3rd at Cairns?



To those of you who haven't played there, the fairway bunker is set in the top of a mound. Anything on a line just right of the bunker will kick/ feed down to the right behind the tall tree at 90 out, which in turn blocks out a clear shot at the green. The fairway is shaped around the right side of the bunker, but the only way to play the hole is to lay up short of the bunker, or try to carry it. Only a well struck (and accurate) drive by a longer hitter will carry the bunker, so everyone else is left with only 1 option: lay-up.


From the perspective of someone who can only get it out there about 230 or so. I don't like it. (interesting that I'd not thought through why before)

If you hit driver. You either hit it into the bunker, or your playing from behind the tree. Other alternative is to lay up with a 5 wood or less and hit a 150 metre plus shot into a green that wont hold....

Jono: I've got a sneaking suspicion that the tree in question was originally one of two and one was ringbarked.

Scottt
4th May 2009, 03:06 PM
Pretty much....

My opinion has always been that it sucks, and that's with no design knowledge. Maybe 69er can offer some thoughts, too?

I threw on my G69 hat, read the RWD manual quickly and here's what I came up with:
http://www.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/07d5654049.jpg

adlo
4th May 2009, 07:06 PM
Adlo
The 3rd hole at Wembley seems to be similar in design, length and topography. The left hand fairway bunker was added to challenge the second shot from that side of the fairway.

Bruce, I quite like that hole. I always seem partial to an elevated tee box as well.

The best angle of approach into the green is from the left to centre of the fairway to take the greenside trap out of play, so it is a good design.

My only qualm is that the fairway bunker should have been 10-20m closer to the tee. It seems positioned to challenge someone with your driving length with that cheat stick you use.

Iain
4th May 2009, 08:05 PM
I threw on my G69 hat, read the RWD manual quickly and here's what I came up with:
http://www.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/07d5654049.jpg

Not sure what the first 2 bunkers are for Scott? Also that one half way between the tree and the green??

Jarro
4th May 2009, 08:09 PM
Not sure what the first 2 bunkers are for Scott? Also that one half way between the tree and the green??

I think they're for when Fishy comes to town.

PeteyD
4th May 2009, 08:10 PM
I think he is having a go at Dick.

adlo
4th May 2009, 08:11 PM
Thats a bit low when dicky is over in WA and can't defend himself.

AndyP
4th May 2009, 08:22 PM
Not sure what the first 2 bunkers are for Scott? Also that one half way between the tree and the green??He's suggesting that Ross/g69 may put a couple too many bunkers on their courses.

Bruce Dickinson
4th May 2009, 09:00 PM
Bruce, I quite like that hole. I always seem partial to an elevated tee box as well.

The best angle of approach into the green is from the left to centre of the fairway to take the greenside trap out of play, so it is a good design.

My only qualm is that the fairway bunker should have been 10-20m closer to the tee. It seems positioned to challenge someone with your driving length with that cheat stick you use.

cheat stick :lol: that would be the perfectly legal driver that is a beast...

unfortunately the bunker could be as you say 10-20 metres too far off the tee, perhaps I should put in a another bunker 20 metres closer to the tee

adlo
4th May 2009, 09:05 PM
cheat stick :lol: that would be the perfectly legal driver that is a beast...

unfortunately the bunker could be as you say 10-20 metres too far off the tee, perhaps I should put in a another bunker 20 metres closer to the tee
:lol: How did the replacement go?

I think the bunker closer to the tee would be a good bunker. Of the old club I played with only 2 blokes could reach the bunker, and I think that would be typical of most golfers. With 2 bunkers you would force all decent golfers to make a decision.

LarryLong
4th May 2009, 09:07 PM
Not sure what the first 2 bunkers are for Scott?

Comedic effect? :)

Bruce Dickinson
4th May 2009, 09:17 PM
Thats a bit low when dicky is over in WA and can't defend himself.

I spoke to the great man today and he had only vague memories of anything that happened in Margaret River past about 5pm last night :smt038

adlo
4th May 2009, 09:42 PM
Does he ever wake up surrounding by booze and betting slips dead broke?

Bruce Dickinson
4th May 2009, 09:44 PM
Does he ever wake up surrounding by booze and betting slips dead broke?

I believe last night it was poker ;)

adlo
4th May 2009, 09:47 PM
Classic.

BrisVegas
5th May 2009, 08:27 AM
I know little about architecture, but the 12th at Brookwater is one of my favourite holes. The entire hole is uphill, but the fairway is canted from right to left. Anything up the middle feeds to the left, where the approach shot is noticeably uphill and has to come into the green laterally and over deep bunkers. If I can hit the right tee shot (a fade) that flirts with the right bunkers it gives a great line in for a knock-down wedge shot up the length of the skinny green. The right side, being higher, makes the apprach much less intimidating as it's an almost level shot.

Off the tee there is a feeling of "width", which is great, but in reality you have to be very precise .

http://www.brookwater.com.au/golf/holes/12.php

PeteyD
5th May 2009, 11:50 AM
I always liked the 2nd at Kooralbyn. Thought it used the lay of the land really nicely.

I remember 12 at Brooky now. I might play it correctly one day.

BrettM
7th May 2009, 03:49 PM
Brett (and anyone else who has played at Cairns GC), what's your take on the 3rd at Cairns?

http://img522.imageshack.us/img522/3411/hole03oo5.png

To those of you who haven't played there, the fairway bunker is set in the top of a mound. Anything on a line just right of the bunker will kick/ feed down to the right behind the tall tree at 90 out, which in turn blocks out a clear shot at the green. The fairway is shaped around the right side of the bunker, but the only way to play the hole is to lay up short of the bunker, or try to carry it. Only a well struck (and accurate) drive by a longer hitter will carry the bunker, so everyone else is left with only 1 option: lay-up.


Just an ordinary golf hole. If the tree was removed the risk/reward element increases greatly as the longer hitter is tempted to pull out the driver more often. Hit it poorly and you can rack up a nice number if hit in the trees on the right, or in the bunker. Take the bunker on and hit it well, the reward is an easy pitch.

I hear trees don't like straight Roundup injected into them.......not sure who I heard that from though.

aussihammer
11th June 2009, 03:47 PM
The funny thing about golf course architecture is that there really is no right or wrong..just opinions.

Whatever is thrown in front of you its your job to negotiate your way to the green in the least amount of shots.

Whilst there is really no right and wrong, there is good and bad.

Oh and golfclub atlas is pretty hard core..there is a ton of dribble on there but there are some really good threads.
Oh there are always wrongs.

PeteyD
11th June 2009, 04:04 PM
Trees are wrong.

haysey
2nd February 2010, 09:24 PM
Brett (and anyone else who has played at Cairns GC), what's your take on the 3rd at Cairns?

http://img522.imageshack.us/img522/3411/hole03oo5.png

To those of you who haven't played there, the fairway bunker is set in the top of a mound. Anything on a line just right of the bunker will kick/ feed down to the right behind the tall tree at 90 out, which in turn blocks out a clear shot at the green. The fairway is shaped around the right side of the bunker, but the only way to play the hole is to lay up short of the bunker, or try to carry it. Only a well struck (and accurate) drive by a longer hitter will carry the bunker, so everyone else is left with only 1 option: lay-up.


Well, the rain of the last few days has been worthwhile. :smt038

Courty
2nd February 2010, 09:26 PM
Such was the power of my drive, I knocked the damn thing over!

mike
2nd February 2010, 09:27 PM
Is that the tree at the 90 metre point?

Courty
2nd February 2010, 09:28 PM
Is that the tree at the 90 metre point?

Yep. :mrgreen:

mike
2nd February 2010, 09:30 PM
They'll have to re-rate the course now.

Courty
2nd February 2010, 09:34 PM
I had that exact same thought today.

BrettM
3rd February 2010, 04:58 AM
Nice. Instantly a much improved golf hole.

LarryLong
3rd February 2010, 06:31 AM
Are there any tyre tracks near the tree?

Or did Courty and Haysey use a team of oxen?

BrisVegas
3rd February 2010, 09:38 AM
Or did Courty and Haysey use a team of oxen?

they ARE a team of oxen. ;)

haysey
3rd February 2010, 11:23 AM
they ARE a team of oxen. ;)


Include Tommo in that and we're a team of oxen led by a knuckle dragging Gorilla. (Who hit 3 wood 20 metres past that tree yesterday)

petethepilot
7th February 2010, 10:48 PM
Played it many times. A crap hole. The real hazard should be the need to thread close to OoB but some idiot left a tree there. I tend to stand up there and just belt it up the left. The bunker is carriable if not too much headwind (it's shallow anyway!) and the green sets up to be approached from the left.

I like Cairns golf club as a club but I don't recall it requiring a cerebral approach to strategy/course management!

Pete

(and I've shot 68 round there with borrowed clubs!)

petethepilot
8th February 2010, 09:53 AM
A great series of books about golf architecture are Paul Daley's 'Golf Architecture - a World Wide Perspective Vol 1 -4'

Wonderful articles and photo's.

I read a great article in one of them last night how the increase in green speeds (due better cutting and maintenance technology) are making greens flater and more boring! ie. If the greens are too fast you must put pins on flat level areas rather than slopes. Apparently, when Palmer won his British Open in 1961, the greens were running at about 6 on the stimpmeter. These days they are in excess of 11 and the US open/Masters run even faster than that! That seriously reduces the amount of useable pin positions and require flat greens. No wonder the pros putt well at tour events on basically flat greens that run damn near perfect.

Pete

Courty
24th February 2013, 07:06 PM
Just re-read this thread and found it quite enlightening. I thought I'd give it a quick bump for a few reasons.

1. The 3rd hole at Cairns still shits me to tears

Exhibit A. My drive yesterday (in the fairway, albeit on the right side) looking straight at the green. Unfortunately that tree wasn't removed after it got blown over and now continues to torment players on a daily basis.

http://i.imgur.com/yjyKDpv.jpg

FWIW (and to answer one of my earlier questions), G69's design of this hole left the tree in place but removed the bunker.

2. I've played on a few more courses since then that have given me a better understanding in terms of having options from the tee.

The most notable of those courses would be Kinloch in NZ back in 2011. It was really quite obvious that there were multiple ways to approach each hole (even the par 3s). Something kind of clicked in my understanding of course strategy whilst on this course.

Thanks to all who have contributed to this thread in the past, your insights have been quite valuable.

backintheswing
24th February 2013, 09:05 PM
So was a stump left and it has re-grown? In the pic I saw it was laying flat.

mike
24th February 2013, 09:46 PM
wtf?

It was blown clean over. Did they stand it up again?

spanner039
25th February 2013, 05:35 AM
Is the bunker still there?

It wouldn't be bad with a bunker or tree, just not both.

If the bunkers gone the tree would probably go back.

sms316
25th February 2013, 05:40 AM
Why don't you just hit it as close as possible to the front of the bunker? By the look of the map posted earlier it would be the best angle in with only a 7 or 8 iron in.

haysey
25th February 2013, 06:35 AM
Why don't you just hit it as close as possible to the front of the bunker? By the look of the map posted earlier it would be the best angle in with only a 7 or 8 iron in.


That's how I try to play it. 5 wood straight at the bunker, leaves a 7 iron ish in. Still a guaranteed 5 :mrgreen:

Webster
25th February 2013, 06:45 AM
Courty, if your tee shot finishes there, you have hit the wrong club off the tee.

Courty
25th February 2013, 09:07 AM
Courty, if your tee shot finishes there, you have hit the wrong club off the tee. Yes and no. It was a poor shot (high spinny cut) with driver. I played the same club from the same tee box on Friday and was 20 meters further up and well left of the tree (carried straight over the bunker). I guess that could be considered the risk/ reward of using that club. My point is that the shot wasn't so poor that I missed the fairway altogether, but I was still penalized. And even more to the point, there are no options for shorter hitters.

Captain Nemo
25th February 2013, 09:10 AM
So, did they just put the tree back in after it blew over?

Marto65
25th February 2013, 10:11 AM
Couldnt shorter hitters lay up short of the bunker and have roughly 150 in?

haysey
25th February 2013, 10:15 AM
Couldnt shorter hitters lay up short of the bunker and have roughly 150 in?

Yep. Plenty of different options as far as I'm concerned. Personally I can't hit driver without having to factor that tree in so I usually don't.

Marto65
25th February 2013, 10:32 AM
No one ever makes 'em pretty and smart ...

Courty
25th February 2013, 11:04 AM
Couldnt shorter hitters lay up short of the bunker and have roughly 150 in?

Yes, but that's their ONLY real option.

Marto65
25th February 2013, 11:08 AM
I can just see Haysey and Solarman on the tee ...

"Go on Courty .. hit Driver. You can clear that bunker easily"

Dont fall for it mate ...

haysey
25th February 2013, 11:38 AM
No one ever makes 'em pretty and smart ...

Apparently you're correct, Marto.

I'm going to do a study over the next few weeks. Number of times Courty hits driver and actually puts himself in play. Betcha it's less than 50%.

Marto65
25th February 2013, 11:50 AM
Yes, but that's their ONLY real option.

Case Dismissed ...

NEXT !!

solarman
25th February 2013, 12:57 PM
Don't know what the bitching from Courty is about on the 3rd.
FFS I smacked it way past him into the middle of the fairway 60m out and still walked off with a double. :) All Because I ooze awesomeness.
Tosser.

Courty
25th February 2013, 01:00 PM
Don't know what the bitching from Courty is about on the 3rd.
FFS I smacked it way past him into the middle of the fairway 60m out and still walked off with a double. :) All Because I ooze awesomeness.
Tosser.

Haysey, can you add Solarman to that study please.

Captain Nemo
25th February 2013, 01:02 PM
So, did they actually re-plant the tree???

solarman
25th February 2013, 01:07 PM
So, did they actually re-plant the tree???

No it just grew back.

Captain Nemo
25th February 2013, 01:10 PM
No it just grew back.

Wow, fast growing f*&^%r:)

spanner039
25th February 2013, 01:35 PM
As i see it its not the tree that's the issue, its the stupid bunker that makes the driving area even narrower, and the fact there is no fairway to the right of the tree (probably due to the lack of space). Is either still there because.

1. The tree was planted by the queen mother
2. the bunker was hand built by the good doctor himself

if the answer is no to each, one or the other needs to go in order to have a better hole!!!!

I see that sort of thing on so many levels at so many courses. An example of a similar type, ie tree is the middle/playing line, is this magnificent tree conservation job on a course that exudes quirkiness and architectural brilliance........

http://www.nationalgolf.com.au/images/tour/old15.jpg

haysey
25th February 2013, 01:42 PM
Haysey, can you add Solarman to that study please.

No point. You know as well as I do what the answer is.

Marto65
25th February 2013, 01:42 PM
Looks like National Old ... one of my favourite courses ..

spanner039
25th February 2013, 01:45 PM
Yep and still up there in my top 5.

Courty
25th February 2013, 01:51 PM
I see that sort of thing on so many levels at so many courses. An example of a similar type, ie tree is the middle/playing line, is this magnificent tree conservation job on a course that exudes quirkiness and architectural brilliance........

http://www.nationalgolf.com.au/images/tour/old15.jpg

Add the 17th at Southern to that list... another stoopid tree.

spanner039
25th February 2013, 02:01 PM
Only stupid if your behind it................i take it you were?

Courty
25th February 2013, 02:12 PM
Only stupid if your behind it................i take it you were?

Aye, twice. :roll:

Moe Norman
25th February 2013, 02:19 PM
what do you think of these ones Courty?

http://img142.imageshack.us/img142/6635/chainsawagain2kh.jpg

http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/7123/chainsawplease8tg.jpg

Marto65
25th February 2013, 02:19 PM
23086 Another contender for "Stupid Tree". 14th at Wairekei Resort in Taupo, NZ. Par 5 .... aim second shot left or right ...

PeteyD
25th February 2013, 02:23 PM
The 12th at Oxley has the best stupid tree.

Daves
25th February 2013, 02:26 PM
The 12th at Oxley has the best stupid tree.

Beat me too it. Honorable mention would go to the tree right in front of the tee at the Hills on the 4th, but they tell me it is now gone.

Moe Norman
25th February 2013, 02:33 PM
The 12th at Oxley has the best stupid tree.

Nope, the 2nd picture I posted above is worse than that one.

Pebble Beach 18th anyone?

sms316
25th February 2013, 02:35 PM
Nope, the 2nd picture I posted above is worse than that one.Pebble Beach 18th anyone? Is the second one 14 at Howlong?

backintheswing
25th February 2013, 02:45 PM
I was a member at Oxley for years. The tree never worried me. Either lay up short of it or hit it past it or level with it for 2.

spanner039
25th February 2013, 02:55 PM
Aye, twice. :roll:

You played it twice?

TourFit
25th February 2013, 02:59 PM
The old Wentworth (before Ernie changed it) had a hole with several stoopid trees!!!

PeteyD
25th February 2013, 03:05 PM
I was a member at Oxley for years. The tree never worried me. Either lay up short of it or hit it past it or level with it for 2.

This does not stop it being a stupid tree. Which it is.

You are right Moe, that green totally blocked off is shocking.

andigold
25th February 2013, 03:42 PM
Is the second one 14 at Howlong?

4th at Growling Frog

Moe Norman
25th February 2013, 03:55 PM
does look like Howlong though, now that you mention it

Courty
25th February 2013, 04:02 PM
You played it twice?

Nope. Tee shot to right side of hole (just in the rough, from memory). Confused about how to take on the tree, I decided to hit a 7 iron down the right side. Caught it fat, didn't make the distance, and so the tree was in my line for the 3rd shot as well. :roll:

sms316
25th February 2013, 04:03 PM
does look like Howlong though, now that you mention it It's been a long time since I've played it. IIRC there is even a fence not far to the left with an orchard on the other side.

LeftyHoges
25th February 2013, 04:29 PM
Nope. Tee shot to right side of hole (just in the rough, from memory). Confused about how to take on the tree, I decided to hit a 7 iron down the right side. Caught it fat, didn't make the distance, and so the tree was in my line for the 3rd shot as well. :roll:

Driver, baby 5 wood, putt from just off the green, tap in 5 foot birdie, just to show who the dominant captain was.

Didn't even know there was a tree on that hole! :lol:

Courty
25th February 2013, 04:49 PM
Didn't even know there was a tree on that hole! :lol:

No doubt! Just as I didn't know there was a bunker on the 3rd. ;)

kev
25th February 2013, 05:04 PM
7th at Point Walter. Just over the ridge as the fairway slopes a long way down to the green.

http://maps.google.com.au/maps?q=bicton,+wa&hl=en&ll=-32.019793,115.789751&spn=0.010179,0.012982&sll=-37.860283,145.079616&sspn=2.426483,3.323364&t=h&hnear=Bicton+Western+Australia&z=17

spanner039
25th February 2013, 05:43 PM
Nope. Tee shot to right side of hole (just in the rough, from memory). Confused about how to take on the tree, I decided to hit a 7 iron down the right side. Caught it fat, didn't make the distance, and so the tree was in my line for the 3rd shot as well. :roll:

It seems the 7 iron's fate was pretty much doomed from Friday then

Courty
25th February 2013, 05:52 PM
It seems the 7 iron's fate was pretty much doomed from Friday then

:lol:

WBennett
25th February 2013, 06:05 PM
Leeton's 7th (http://maps.google.com.au/maps?q=Leeton,+New+South+Wales&hl=en&ll=-34.564968,146.410117&spn=0.003689,0.008256&sll=-32.020061,115.789579&sspn=0.005371,0.008256&oq=leeton&t=h&hnear=Leeton+New+South+Wales&z=18) -
Ranfurlie 9th (http://maps.google.com.au/maps?q=Ranfurlie+Golf+Course,+Cranbourne-Frankston+Road,+Cranbourne+West,+Victoria&hl=en&ll=-38.119644,145.250266&spn=0.007048,0.016512&sll=-37.921214,145.211577&sspn=0.028268,0.066047&oq=ranfurlie+golf&t=h&hq=Ranfurlie+Golf+Course,+Cranbourne-Frankston+Road,+Cranbourne+West,+Victoria&z=17) -
13th Beach Creek Course (http://maps.google.com.au/maps?q=13th+beach+golf&hl=en&ll=-38.269681,144.468026&spn=0.007033,0.016512&sll=-38.119644,145.250266&sspn=0.007048,0.016512&t=h&hq=13th+beach+golf&z=17)

All stoopid trees

WBennett
25th February 2013, 06:07 PM
The tree on 17 on Southern wasn't in play that I remember. You just had to be in the right position off the tee

Courty
25th February 2013, 06:10 PM
​http://www.southerngolfclub.com.au/guests/golf/coursetour.mhtml

AndyP
25th February 2013, 06:16 PM
The tree on 17 on Southern wasn't in play that I remember. You just had to be in the right position off the tee
Are you trolling?

LeftyHoges
25th February 2013, 06:18 PM
Ranfurlie 9th (http://maps.google.com.au/maps?q=Ranfurlie+Golf+Course,+Cranbourne-Frankston+Road,+Cranbourne+West,+Victoria&hl=en&ll=-38.119644,145.250266&spn=0.007048,0.016512&sll=-37.921214,145.211577&sspn=0.028268,0.066047&oq=ranfurlie+golf&t=h&hq=Ranfurlie+Golf+Course,+Cranbourne-Frankston+Road,+Cranbourne+West,+Victoria&z=17)

All stoopid trees

Disagree here. The trees add character to an otherwise fairly boring hole. Or is it just that I'm long enough that they have no affect on me? :mrgreen:


No doubt! Just as I didn't know there was a bunker on the 3rd. ;)

Are you talking about the one I was in, or the one I created? :lol:

spanner039
25th February 2013, 06:47 PM
Ranfurlie 9th- Agree with you Lefty. It's actually one of the more entertaining holes on what is a very boring course.

LeftyHoges
25th February 2013, 07:25 PM
Ranfurlie 9th- Agree with you Lefty. It's actually one of the more entertaining holes on what is a very boring course.

Agreed on the boring. 4, 9 and 16 are really the only holes that get my juices even slightly flowing.

WBennett
25th February 2013, 07:31 PM
Are you trolling?

No - the right position to take the tree out of play was hacking it out of the left rough, then knocking an 8 iron on to the green for an easy two putt par.

Tree was never in play!

BrettM
25th February 2013, 08:26 PM
Just re-read this thread and found it quite enlightening. I thought I'd give it a quick bump for a few reasons. 1. The 3rd hole at Cairns still shits me to tearsExhibit A. My drive yesterday (in the fairway, albeit on the right side) looking straight at the green. Unfortunately that tree wasn't removed after it got blown over and now continues to torment players on a daily basis.http://i.imgur.com/yjyKDpv.jpgFWIW (and to answer one of my earlier questions), G69's design of this hole left the tree in place but removed the bunker..Courty,I had a look at G69s proposal and looks like a bunker there on the right instead of the tree. Not being an architect, I don't know why you would bunker close to OOB when that's the penalty within itself, but couldn't get too close on on the resolution. In any case the green itself doesn't really have a preferred line of approach in its current state as, from my memory, it slopes front to middle then middle up to back with bunkers either side. Thus, being a tight driving hole with penalty right does it need anything at all?

BenM
25th February 2013, 08:41 PM
The tree on 17 on Southern wasn't in play that I remember. You just had to be in the right position off the tee

What was the right position on the fairway?

I think I hit the best drive I hit all day on that hole. Pretty much middle of the fairway. Had to hit a massive cut to get round that tree. Not sure I could've taken out of play unless I was well left (like almost in the rough) and don't remember it being _that_ wide.


FYI, smoked driver off the deck, cut it round the tree alright, but overcooked it a little. Punched onto the green and made an easy two putt par. Would love to play the hole again though.

Courty
25th February 2013, 08:47 PM
Courty,I had a look at G69s proposal and looks like a bunker there on the right instead of the tree. Not being an architect, I don't know why you would bunker close to OOB when that's the penalty within itself, but couldn't get too close on on the resolution. In any case the green itself doesn't really have a preferred line of approach in its current state as, from my memory, it slopes front to middle then middle up to back with bunkers either side. Thus, being a tight driving hole with penalty right does it need anything at all?

I believe the area that you refer to is a no-mow area (planting of native grasses & trees) similar to many other areas they have installed around the course in recent times. There is also a mound behind it (looking from the tee) at about the same length as, and to the right of the tree. Another no-mow area and mound replace the front left bunker, making the right side of the fairway slightly favourable as the preferred line of play to the green.

AndyP
25th February 2013, 08:48 PM
Apparently the options on Southern 17 were to go left of the tree for the second to leave a shorter, but tougher approach or go right to leave a longer but more open approach. My strategy of going into the greenside bunker on the other side of the 14th green didn't pay off.

Courty
25th February 2013, 08:49 PM
What was the right position on the fairway?

From the Southern GC site:


Driver is not necessary off this tee due to the importance of hitting this narrow fairway. Right centre all the way is perfect as the second shot ideally requires placement right of the large gum in the middle of the fairway to open up the green for the approach.

It appears I was on the right track by attempting to play to the right of the tree, but botched the 2nd shot. :roll:

LeftyHoges
25th February 2013, 08:49 PM
What was the right position on the fairway?

I think I hit the best drive I hit all day on that hole. Pretty much middle of the fairway. Had to hit a massive cut to get round that tree. Not sure I could've taken out of play unless I was well left (like almost in the rough) and don't remember it being _that_ wide.


FYI, smoked driver off the deck, cut it round the tree alright, but overcooked it a little. Punched onto the green and made an easy two putt par. Would love to play the hole again though.

Fairway was fine. I hit a draw off the left tree line into dead centre of the fairway and the tree was never a thought. Even hit a 5 yard fade in with the 5 wood.

popper81
25th February 2013, 08:50 PM
What was the right position on the fairway?

I think I hit the best drive I hit all day on that hole. Pretty much middle of the fairway. Had to hit a massive cut to get round that tree. Not sure I could've taken out of play unless I was well left (like almost in the rough) and don't remember it being _that_ wide.


FYI, smoked driver off the deck, cut it round the tree alright, but overcooked it a little. Punched onto the green and made an easy two putt par. Would love to play the hole again though.

You played that hole great..... Once the pressure was released, you played with great abandonment.

Courty
25th February 2013, 08:52 PM
Fairway was fine. I hit a draw off the left tree line into dead centre of the fairway and the tree was never a thought. Even hit a 5 yard fade in with the 5 wood.

You had it on a string on that back 9. 2 under and probably should have been lower!

BenM
25th February 2013, 09:04 PM
Fairway was fine. I hit a draw off the left tree line into dead centre of the fairway and the tree was never a thought. Even hit a 5 yard fade in with the 5 wood.

Yeah but you're a gorilla. I doubt the tree would've been an issue for me either if I was 50 metres further up the fairway where you probably were :D

LeftyHoges
25th February 2013, 09:09 PM
You had it on a string on that back 9. 2 under and probably should have been lower!

Cheers mate, kind words. Was very happy with how I struck it and turned it around that 9.

Truth be told just heard of the struggle of my fellow soldiers and had to do something to inspire them. ;-)

Courty
25th February 2013, 09:14 PM
Truth be told just heard of the struggle of my fellow soldiers and had to do something to inspire them. ;-)

That was half of my problem, I had Marto in my ear telling me how good we were going early in the round and took my foot off the gas after the 7th. ;)

LeftyHoges
25th February 2013, 09:44 PM
That was half of my problem, I had Marto in my ear telling me how good we were going early in the round and took my foot off the gas after the 7th. ;)

:lol:

A good VC will push you along, but also keep you grounded when needed.

From the coin toss it was clear he was a Captain in a VC's body that day! ;-)

LeftyHoges
25th February 2013, 09:45 PM
Yeah but you're a gorilla. I doubt the tree would've been an issue for me either if I was 50 metres further up the fairway where you probably were :D

Just trying to remember what I had in actually, think it was about 210 from memory. How far back was the tree from the green?

Moe Norman
25th February 2013, 09:53 PM
Agreed on the boring. 4, 9 and 16 are really the only holes that get my juices even slightly flowing. You must dislike thinking on a golf course then!Ranfurlie is ugly, but it sure as shit ain't boring.

LeftyHoges
25th February 2013, 09:56 PM
You must dislike thinking on a golf course then!Ranfurlie is ugly, but it sure as shit ain't boring.

Yeah it is. Doesn't require any thought unless the wind is up. In which case you'd be thinking on any course. Boring as bat shit.

BenM
25th February 2013, 09:56 PM
Just trying to remember what I had in actually, think it was about 210 from memory. How far back was the tree from the green?

Maybe 80-100 metres I think? I had about 40 metres or so in out of the right rough, and was a fair way past it. Flushed driver 200+ to get there so your drive was definitely further down than mine! :)

Moe Norman
25th February 2013, 10:22 PM
Yeah it is. Doesn't require any thought unless the wind is up. In which case you'd be thinking on any course. Boring as bat shit. Agree to disagree.Ranfurlie is a classic example of angular golf and preferred lines of play. It's a thinking mans course and is great fun to play.

LarryLong
25th February 2013, 11:15 PM
Southern 17? If the biggest chopper in the group can go driver-3 hybrid and bypass the stoopid tree with ease, the hole can't be that hard. :mrgreen:

Of course, I left myself with an easy sand wedge to the green and missed by 10m to the left. Up and down for par though.

Webster
26th February 2013, 07:18 AM
Yeah it is. Doesn't require any thought unless the wind is up. In which case you'd be thinking on any course. Boring as bat shit.

wow.

Marto65
26th February 2013, 07:31 AM
http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/35273869.jpg (http://www.ozgolf.net/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=boring+as+batshit&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&docid=huN12pTn6pyMQM&tbnid=7ZsUWmGKHWOEKM:&ved=0CAUQjRw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fes.memegenerator.net%2Finstance%2 F35273869&ei=ItgrUdDxOebImAWk3IDIDw&bvm=bv.42768644,d.aGc&psig=AFQjCNHtq6NTq7jAtTlbsl1JBNfWpPO70A&ust=1361914233558086)

LeftyHoges
26th February 2013, 09:01 AM
wow.

You disagree Jack? Do you think Ranfurlie is an exciting course?

I've broken 80 both times there playing like an absolute chopper, not being able to put a ball anywhere near where I wanted to. You can get away with murder on that course.

My opinion, of course.

Moe Norman
26th February 2013, 09:16 AM
You disagree Jack? Do you think Ranfurlie is an exciting course?

I've broken 80 both times there playing like an absolute chopper, not being able to put a ball anywhere near where I wanted to. You can get away with murder on that course.

My opinion, of course.

what has your score got to do with the quality of a golf course?

LeftyHoges
26th February 2013, 09:24 AM
what has your score got to do with the quality of a golf course?

I'm using it as an indication of boring golf. You say it's angular golf and preferred lines of play, I say it's whack a ball somewhere in the 50m wide fairway and whack it again onto the green. Of course there are preferred lines of play, but there are preferred lines of play on EVERY hole in the world.

My point is that I was nowhere near these so-called "preferred lines of play" for Ranfurlie and still scored half decent. Not exciting at all.

Despite all evidence to the contrary I like a course that punishes you for not being in the right spot. So unless you're 70m wide of the centre of the fairway, there is no wrong spot at Ranfurlie except for maybe 3 or 4 holes. (With the obvious exceptions of some places around the greens but they're at every course too).

Just to clarify, I'm not saying Fanfurlie has bad architecture, it's an ok course that I don't mind.

I'm just saying if you're looking for me to name my top 100 "exciting" courses in VIC, Ranfurlie ain't one of them.

Moe Norman
26th February 2013, 10:06 AM
Despite all evidence to the contrary I like a course that punishes you for not being in the right spot. So unless you're 70m wide of the centre of the fairway, there is no wrong spot at Ranfurlie except for maybe 3 or 4 holes. (With the obvious exceptions of some places around the greens but they're at every course too).


I think we must have very different definitions of 'wrong spot'.

You say that you can be anywhere on the fairway at Ranfurlie and not be in the wrong spot and I disagree strongly.

I can't be bothered going through it hole by hole, but here are some quotes by some reasonably knowledgeable people on the subject who probably make the point more eloquently than me. Granted, everyone remains entitled to an opinion, just perhaps some are less observant than others!



Tom Doak:

It's not in the same category as Barnbougle or St. Andrews Beach because Michael & co. did not have the same sort of terrain to work with ... except for a few large trees which they used strategically, the site is very open and windswept, and the contours are very broad.

Considering that, it is really a remarkably good course. The greens and bunker construction is very well done, and in many cases insists that you play the approach from one side of the fairway over the other. I really like how they ramped the greens up from the front to allow a running approach.


I have played Ranfurlie a couple of times , and walked it a couple more

My impressions were that the course being so open reminds of the old term "playing fields" because you can virtually see all the other holes as you go around .

I would also say that it is a "players course" which would appeal to the thinking golfer , but may not have the same appeal to the social golfer.

It is a very good golf course however , and a stringent test of golf and shotmaking .


I've been fortunate enough to play the course a few times. I always look forward to a game there. Lots of fun, and good strategic problems to encounter throughout the round.

There's good variety in hole structure, green complexes, and a nasty little problem of a sharp rise around the clubhouse has been dealt with well, especially with holes 9 and 10.

I concur with other comments re: Ranfurlie as a Player's Course. Strategic, certainly not picturesque, and a wonderful job on a plot that lends itself more to rice farming than the sport of golf.

Matthew Mollica


For a variety of reasons, be it the landform, location or marketing, this course is virtually unknown to an army of Melbourne golfers.

Those who play it just once, don't seem to understand or appreciate its subtle virtues. Although the overall property is flattish, there are a few dramatic elevation rises. The big plusses are its sound bunkering and several stellar angled appraoches to greens. The greens are not repulsive in any way, either.

Ranfurlie provides an enjoyable golfing experience

Paul Daley

sms316
26th February 2013, 10:11 AM
Wide open tracks tend to be relatively easy to make a heap of pars when not hitting it great, but you need to still hit the right spots to give yourself good chances at making birdies.

spanner039
26th February 2013, 10:37 AM
Believe me, that if they could do it again (Clayton & Co) with michael cockings input, Ranfurlie would be very different and play a lot better.

Moe Norman
26th February 2013, 10:43 AM
Wide open tracks tend to be relatively easy to make a heap of pars when not hitting it great, but you need to still hit the right spots to give yourself good chances at making birdies.

perhaps your most intelligent post ever.

Also makes them more enjoyable too.

LeftyHoges
26th February 2013, 10:46 AM
Yep, going to have to agree to disagree here Moe.

Not a single one of those quotes goes even close to convincing me that Ranfurlie is anything but boring, which is my original point.

sms316
26th February 2013, 10:58 AM
perhaps your most intelligent post ever.Also makes them more enjoyable too. No wonder I had second thoughts before posting it.

PeteyD
26th February 2013, 10:59 AM
Wide open tracks tend to be relatively easy to make a heap of pars when not hitting it great, but you need to still hit the right spots to give yourself good chances at making birdies.


perhaps your most intelligent post ever.

Also makes them more enjoyable too.


No wonder I had second thoughts before posting it.

You got the flu?

Moe Norman
26th February 2013, 11:02 AM
Yep, going to have to agree to disagree here Moe.

Not a single one of those quotes goes even close to convincing me that Ranfurlie is anything but boring, which is my original point.

agreed.

Too busy making sure the belt matches the shoes instead of noticing the best line of approach ;)

Webster
26th February 2013, 11:03 AM
Believe me, that if they could do it again (Clayton & Co) with michael cockings input, Ranfurlie would be very different and play a lot better.

How? Why?

sms316
26th February 2013, 11:07 AM
You got the flu? No mate. Clarity of mind from staying away from that shithole 100km north.

spanner039
26th February 2013, 01:02 PM
How? Why?

Ranfurlie was designed by Clayton with input from John Sloan(?) since Ranfurlie and with Mike Cocking joining they have done Healesville, The Lakes and Royal Queensland. (I haven't seen the Grange or Lake Karrinyup however i am assuming that the word conservative was floated in the brief)

My input to Clayton and Cocking at Healesville was - Use your imagination, bought on by what didn't excite me at Ranfurlie.

What i got was pretty much pure Mike Cocking and his imagination great bunkering, wild greens and while very short so many different options to play the holes. This has pretty much been used at all the major re-modelling/new courses that they have done since.

I would gladly give my right nut that Ranfurlie would have been more of a visually pleasing and demanding course if Cocking was involved, instead its a boring course with sand belt type bunkers and greens, sorry its been done better at just about all of the sandbelt courses.

Those that have played Healesville will know what I'm talking about and the thought of a good length version with that type of bunkering and greens complexes and playing options would have been a far better option than what is Ranfurlie today.

Webster
26th February 2013, 01:18 PM
Spanner, what's your involvement at Healesville?

spanner039
26th February 2013, 01:21 PM
Former superintendent of 15 years stayed for 3/4 of the construction and put all the initial feasibility plans together. Saw the light now an industry rep, giddy up.

Moe Norman
26th February 2013, 01:22 PM
Those that have played Healesville will know what I'm talking about and the thought of a good length version with that type of bunkering and greens complexes and playing options would have been a far better option than what is Ranfurlie today.

Ignoring the fact that Healesville and Ranfurlie are on incredibly different plots of land, what has been done at Healesville wouldn't neccessarily be appropriate for 'standard' length course catering to a weekly membership.

Webster
26th February 2013, 01:31 PM
Thanks Spanner.

I've played Ranfurlie dozens of times and only walked around Healesville just after it was completed. Theres no way you could do a Healesville style course at Ranfurlie as Mor says, they are completely different sites and Ranfurlie is way too exposed for those types of greens.

I disagree that Ranfurlie is ugly or boring. It's an open style course in fitting with the strong winds that blow down there, and is wide off the tee so that all members have sufficient width to hit into. It's full of really good holes and has matured into an excellent course, one of the best built in Vic in the last 20 years.

spanner039
26th February 2013, 01:36 PM
Ignoring the fact that Healesville and Ranfurlie are on incredibly different plots of land, what has been done at Healesville wouldn't necessarily be appropriate for 'standard' length course catering to a weekly membership.

No disagree, that's why i used the Lakes and Royal Queensland as examples, sure Lakes has water and dunes but the concept that was Healesville has been very successfully taken to sites that are miles apart in terrain and climate.

As for weekly membership play - how do the National members go? they love it for what it stands for decent golf courses of great design, with a majority of members that probably loose 5 balls a game and cant break 100.

So are you saying you would want to play an easy course if you are a member?

We are still talking golf where image and marketing suck all of us in every day.

spanner039
26th February 2013, 01:39 PM
ill tell you what, i haven't played it for at least four years. I'll play it next week before my self opinionated views start me on the road to grumpy old man syndrome.

Webster
26th February 2013, 01:47 PM
Spanner, what's your handicap?

Marto65
26th February 2013, 01:57 PM
Spanner, what's your handicap?

His short game.

spanner039
26th February 2013, 01:59 PM
9 and just getting back into it.

Golf architecture is one of those subjects that there is no right or wrong, there are even golfers that like Eagle Ridge (usually they hate St Andrews) good on them.

I'm the bloke that thinks Huntingdale is a lot better now than it was before and Commonwealth is a lot better than what it was. I know there are lots that say the opposite.

spanner039
26th February 2013, 02:00 PM
His short game.

Thanks mate :o

Marto65
26th February 2013, 02:01 PM
Thanks

You're welcome ...

It'll come good mate ... you'll be off 5 next time i see you.

spanner039
26th February 2013, 02:03 PM
or 25 either way

Marto65
26th February 2013, 02:07 PM
Mate ... at least next time have more than 24 points ... then you can rid yourself of the Jack Bauer tag.

Jack ... spanner has a great set-up and looks very comfortable over the driver and irons. Hits it a mile (though not as far as Popper apparently). As with all golfers who have taken a break ... the short game is the last thing to come back.

LeftyHoges
26th February 2013, 02:08 PM
Jack ... spanner has a great set-up and looks very comfortable over the driver and irons. Hits it a mile (though not as far as Popper apparently). As with all golfers who have taken a break ... the short game is the last thing to come back.

2014 Victorian OZgolf champion.

You heard it here first! ;-)

popper81
26th February 2013, 02:09 PM
Mate ... at least next time have more than 24 points ... then you can rid yourself of the Jack Bauer tag.

Jack ... spanner has a great set-up and looks very comfortable over the driver and irons. Hits it a mile (though not as far as Popper apparently). As with all golfers who have taken a break ... the short game is the last thing to come back.

You truly are a first class, pole smoker.

spanner039
26th February 2013, 02:11 PM
Mate ... at least next time have more than 24 points ... then you can rid yourself of the Jack Bauer tag.

Jack ... spanner has a great set-up and looks very comfortable over the driver and irons. Hits it a mile (though not as far as Popper apparently). As with all golfers who have taken a break ... the short game is the last thing to come back.

Mate I was not even close to Popper, and thanks for your encouraging words.

spanner039
26th February 2013, 02:13 PM
2014 Victorian OZgolf champion.

You heard it here first! ;-)

FFS

popper81
26th February 2013, 02:14 PM
Mate I was not even close to Popper, and thanks for your encouraging words.

Correct, we weren't even close... That is because I was 40m left, and 50m behind you.

LeftyHoges
26th February 2013, 02:15 PM
FFS

Problem Cam? :lol:

Judge Smails
26th February 2013, 02:18 PM
Spanner, instead of playing next week in good weather, come down in September when it's blowing hard and lets see if you hit it average and break 90, much less 80. I can agree that some people will find the course unattractive, beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but if you think the place is boring, that you don't have to think about your shots and you can hit it anywhere, find it, hit it again, then you might be smoking a slightly stronger strain of Carl's hybrid cross of Bluegrass, Kentucky Bluegrass, Featherbed Bent, and Northern California Sensemilia.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion, the problem is opinions are like ar$eholes, everyone has them and a lot of them stink. Moe, Jack, Matty, Paul Daley, Darius Oliver are on the right track, Lefty and Spanner are so far off base they're back in the dugout.

For starters, the 'crap' trees on 9 weren't allowed to be moved, but like most people, they remember their ball crashing into the trunk and hurtling back at them, not for one moment looking at the fantastic greensite setting. Wondering why their ball is at the proshop door when they've hit a shot in from near the 16th green instead of shaping a drive to the all important *right spot on the edge of the fairway*

Fair enough, good players can make pars from almost anywhere assuming they have a reasonable lie and conditions are OK but they will rarely make birdies and often make bogies or worse, good players wont make pars in windy conditions all the time from the wrong spots and good players are completely fingered if they get in the wrong side of the fairway in the wrong conditions.

Vic Open qualifying saw the wind pick up in the afternoon, really good players, better players than most of us, struggled to break 75, 72 got into a playoff and the conditions there at the moment are the easiest they've been for a while as the hot weather has burnt off the rough and the wind has been gentle. The second the wind picks up , the scores go through the roof. Last Thursday I had a playing partner of scratch hit a drive on 14 that went 350 meters, he hit just as good a drive up 16 that went 200. Playing this same course on a day with no wind, and I'm assuming Sunday or mid week tee and pin positions is a different beast to one set up for a Saturday Medal.

Another fact, good players don't always make good judges of GCA, lets just use Hidden Valley as exhibit A.

At least your misinformed posts have led to some robust discussion

Webster
26th February 2013, 02:20 PM
I'm the bloke that thinks Huntingdale is a lot better now than it was before and Commonwealth is a lot better than what it was. I know there are lots that say the opposite.

Better now than when?

spanner039
26th February 2013, 02:21 PM
Problem Cam? :lol:

You back on the weed, or find another bottle of paintstripper?

Yes i will be trying, come Vic Champs next year........

spanner039
26th February 2013, 02:22 PM
Better now than when?

Huntindale pre changes 1990's, Commonwealth pre changes 1990's

Captain Nemo
26th February 2013, 02:23 PM
Spanner, instead of playing next week in good weather, come down in September when it's blowing hard and lets see if you hit it average and break 90, much less 80. I can agree that some people will find the course unattractive, beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but if you think the place is boring, that you don't have to think about your shots and you can hit it anywhere, find it, hit it again, then you might be smoking a slightly stronger strain of Carl's hybrid cross of Bluegrass, Kentucky Bluegrass, Featherbed Bent, and Northern California Sensemilia.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion, the problem is opinions are like ar$eholes, everyone has them and a lot of them stink. Moe, Jack, Matty, Paul Daley, Darius Oliver are on the right track, Lefty and Spanner are so far off base they're back in the dugout.

For starters, the 'crap' trees on 9 weren't allowed to be moved, but like most people, they remeber their ball crashing into the trunk and huirtling back at them, not for one moment looking at the fantastic greensite setting. Wondering why their ball is at the proshop door when they've hit a shot in from near the 16th green instead of shaping a drive to the all important *right spot on the edge of the fairway*

Fair enough, good players can make pars from almost anywhere assuming they have a reasonable lie and conditions are OK but they will rarely make birdies and often make bogies or worse, good players wont make pars in windy conditions all the time from the wrong spots and good players are completely fingered if they get in the wrong side of the fairway in the wrong conditions.

Vic Open qualifying saw the wind pick up in the afternoon, really good players, better players than most of us, struggled to break 75, 72 got into a playoff and the conditions there at the moment are the easiest they've been for a while as the hot weather has burnt off the rough and the wind has been gentle. The second the wind picks up , the scores go through the roof. Last Thursday I had a playing partner of scratch hit a drive on 14 that went 350 meters, he hit just as good a drive up 16 that went 200. Playing this same course on a day with no wind, and I'm assuming Sunday or mid week tee and pin positions is a different beast to one set up for a Saturday Medal.

Another fact, good players don't always make good judges of GCA, lets just use Hidden Valley as exhibit A.

At least your misinformed posts have led to some robust discussion

:smt062
Nice, ill just make myself a short black and grab a tim tam sit back and read.
Carry on lads!

Webster
26th February 2013, 02:24 PM
So you are saying that the changes made to Commonwealth in the early 90's made the course "a lot better"?

sms316
26th February 2013, 02:27 PM
Who's this Smails ****?

Marto65
26th February 2013, 02:30 PM
Who's this Smails ****?

I thought he was one of yours.

Captain Nemo
26th February 2013, 02:30 PM
Who's this Smails ****?

:smt044

Just choked on my tim tam...

spanner039
26th February 2013, 02:32 PM
Spanner, instead of playing next week in good weather, come down in September when it's blowing hard and lets see if you hit it average and break 90, much less 80. I can agree that some people will find the course unattractive, beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but if you think the place is boring, that you don't have to think about your shots and you can hit it anywhere, find it, hit it again, then you might be smoking a slightly stronger strain of Carl's hybrid cross of Bluegrass, Kentucky Bluegrass, Featherbed Bent, and Northern California Sensemilia.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion, the problem is opinions are like ar$eholes, everyone has them and a lot of them stink. Moe, Jack, Matty, Paul Daley, Darius Oliver are on the right track, Lefty and Spanner are so far off base they're back in the dugout.

For starters, the 'crap' trees on 9 weren't allowed to be moved, but like most people, they remember their ball crashing into the trunk and hurtling back at them, not for one moment looking at the fantastic greensite setting. Wondering why their ball is at the proshop door when they've hit a shot in from near the 16th green instead of shaping a drive to the all important *right spot on the edge of the fairway*

Fair enough, good players can make pars from almost anywhere assuming they have a reasonable lie and conditions are OK but they will rarely make birdies and often make bogies or worse, good players wont make pars in windy conditions all the time from the wrong spots and good players are completely fingered if they get in the wrong side of the fairway in the wrong conditions.

Vic Open qualifying saw the wind pick up in the afternoon, really good players, better players than most of us, struggled to break 75, 72 got into a playoff and the conditions there at the moment are the easiest they've been for a while as the hot weather has burnt off the rough and the wind has been gentle. The second the wind picks up , the scores go through the roof. Last Thursday I had a playing partner of scratch hit a drive on 14 that went 350 meters, he hit just as good a drive up 16 that went 200. Playing this same course on a day with no wind, and I'm assuming Sunday or mid week tee and pin positions is a different beast to one set up for a Saturday Medal.

Another fact, good players don't always make good judges of GCA, lets just use Hidden Valley as exhibit A.

At least your misinformed posts have led to some robust discussion

Your missing the point, i dont care how hard a course is or that no one can break par and i knew about the trees on 9 they don't worry me nor come into play. I THINK RANFURLIE IS BORING my opinion/problem i also dont like McDonalds, Vue de Monde, Callaway, Titliest or Miranda Kerr but i know lots that do. Good on them.

I will play it next week with an open mind of course, and report back.

Hidden Valley are you saying its good or bad, i think you may know where i sit.

Now this is getting very unlike me, time for a beer.................

Marto65
26th February 2013, 02:35 PM
My auto spell checker just changed Ranfurlie to Randy Elite.

sms316
26th February 2013, 02:35 PM
Hold the phone. You don't rate Miranda?

spanner039
26th February 2013, 02:41 PM
So you are saying that the changes made to Commonwealth in the early 90's made the course "a lot better"?

Yes, i dont like the tree planting but that was out of my control.

The greens were very steep 2,8,9,11,15 that allowed almost no pins

The 1st done just before me is now a great opening hole these days the "old" first would be nothing more than a 4 iron

The extra length was much needed

The 7th i liked the old 7th better and could have done with a "resto", but leaving it there impacted the 6th and 12th greens and 13th tee.

as constructed the new 4th tee was magnificent changed a bit now

The greens could be more flowing now they were built with distinctive levels that were to soften over time i don't think it has worked.

The "new" 6th green dosnt work. Still to this day i look at it and wonder WTF we were thinking.

Its in a lot better condition these days the Legend has worked really well.

Moe Norman
26th February 2013, 02:42 PM
amongst all the ranting, the key part of Smails post was that the best place to be on many holes at Ranfurlie is close to the edge of the fairways off the tee.

I think plenty of people fail to notice this, and as such just don't 'get' it.

Bomb it down the middle all day, hit it as well as you like - but then wonder why you always feel like the pin is inaccessible.

I like courses where the punishment for not hitting it where you intended is that the next shot is more difficult, not that you're searching for your ball and no longer have any chance of recovery.

spanner039
26th February 2013, 02:43 PM
Hold the phone. You don't rate Miranda?

Cant you let a man rant?

She looks high maintenance

Moe Norman
26th February 2013, 02:44 PM
The 1st done just before me is now a great opening hole these days the "old" first would be nothing more than a 4 iron

The extra length was much needed



oh wow.

this could get ugly.

No wonder courses are getting butchered if there are decision makers with views like this.

spanner039
26th February 2013, 02:45 PM
amongst all the ranting, the key part of Smails post was that the best place to be on many holes at Ranfurlie is close to the edge of the fairways off the tee.

I think plenty of people fail to notice this, and as such just don't 'get' it.

Bomb it down the middle all day, hit it as well as you like - but then wonder why you always feel like the pin is inaccessible.

I like courses where the punishment for not hitting it where you intended is that the next shot is more difficult, not that you're searching for your ball and no longer have any chance of recovery.

Agree entirely, will look out for it next week

sms316
26th February 2013, 02:47 PM
amongst all the ranting, the key part of Smails post was that the best place to be on many holes at Ranfurlie is close to the edge of the fairways off the tee.

I think plenty of people fail to notice this, and as such just don't 'get' it.

Bomb it down the middle all day, hit it as well as you like - but then wonder why you always feel like the pin is inaccessible.

I like courses where the punishment for not hitting it where you intended is that the next shot is more difficult, not that you're searching for your ball and no longer have any chance of recovery.
10 at RQ sums this up perfectly. Wide fairway. Wide green with a ridge down the middle. Just look at the green from the tee and the strategy is obvious. Hit the middle or the wrong side and the ridge comes right into play.

spanner039
26th February 2013, 02:47 PM
oh wow.

this could get ugly.

No wonder courses are getting butchered if there are decision makers with views like this.

Come on give me a break, the old first was fine the new one is so much better - MY OPINION

Judge Smails
26th February 2013, 02:48 PM
Ranting? Geez, I'll have to watch my P's and Q's if that was a rant....

SMS, you're right, I'm a ****

Dotty
26th February 2013, 02:48 PM
Who's this Smails ****?
And does his handicap still start with a 1?

sms316
26th February 2013, 02:49 PM
And does his handicap still start with a 1? Oh no...

Judge Smails
26th February 2013, 02:50 PM
Oh, and one more thing, the first at Comm is OK but I doubt you will find many who think it's better than what preceded it.

However you're entitled to your opinion, it's only strengthens my stance on Ranfurlie!

LeftyHoges
26th February 2013, 02:51 PM
Spanner, instead of playing next week in good weather, come down in September when it's blowing hard and lets see if you hit it average and break 90, much less 80. I can agree that some people will find the course unattractive, beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but if you think the place is boring, that you don't have to think about your shots and you can hit it anywhere, find it, hit it again, then you might be smoking a slightly stronger strain of Carl's hybrid cross of Bluegrass, Kentucky Bluegrass, Featherbed Bent, and Northern California Sensemilia.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion, the problem is opinions are like ar$eholes, everyone has them and a lot of them stink. Moe, Jack, Matty, Paul Daley, Darius Oliver are on the right track, Lefty and Spanner are so far off base they're back in the dugout.

Just like you're entitled to your opinion, as I have said to Moe. We've agreed to disagree. He sees value in the course, I don't. It happens. I'm sure there's courses that you find boring that I quite like and get genuinely excited by. Does that mean yours is a stinky opinion because we disagree.

I'm the first to admit that I know the sum of sweet **** all about "golf course architecture", and what is required by a course / hole to be considered great. All I know is that I'm bored shitless playing around Ranfurlie, and that is my OPINION.

For starters, the 'crap' trees on 9 weren't allowed to be moved, (Spanner and I are arguing FOR these!) but like most people, they remember their ball crashing into the trunk and hurtling back at them, not for one moment looking at the fantastic greensite setting. Wondering why their ball is at the proshop door when they've hit a shot in from near the 16th green instead of shaping a drive to the all important *right spot on the edge of the fairway*

Fair enough, good players can make pars from almost anywhere assuming they have a reasonable lie and conditions are OK but they will rarely make birdies and often make bogies or worse, good players wont make pars in windy conditions all the time from the wrong spots and good players are completely fingered if they get in the wrong side of the fairway in the wrong conditions. Exactly, in the wrong conditions. We're not talking about wind that blows its tits off here. We are talking about the course itself, playing in an 'average' wind under 'average conditions'. I realise that the course was built to that purpose because of the area it was being built in, but wind does not make a course exciting, it only makes it harder. I have played it in both conditions, benign and 75km/h + winds. I hit driver, 5 wood, 5 wood into 10, (nutting them all) and was still short. How is that exciting?

Vic Open qualifying saw the wind pick up in the afternoon, really good players, better players than most of us, struggled to break 75, 72 got into a playoff and the conditions there at the moment are the easiest they've been for a while as the hot weather has burnt off the rough and the wind has been gentle. The second the wind picks up , the scores go through the roof. Last Thursday I had a playing partner of scratch hit a drive on 14 that went 350 meters, he hit just as good a drive up 16 that went 200. Playing this same course on a day with no wind, and I'm assuming Sunday or mid week tee and pin positions is a different beast to one set up for a Saturday Medal. Again, wind only makes a course harder, not more exciting / less boring.

Another fact, good players don't always make good judges of GCA, lets just use Hidden Valley as exhibit A.

At least your misinformed posts have led to some robust discussion. How are our posts any more misinformed than yours? You have an opinion on what makes a course exciting, I have a different one. ....

spanner039
26th February 2013, 02:54 PM
Oh, and one more thing, the first at Comm is OK but I doubt you will find many who think it's better than what preceded it.

However you're entitled to your opinion, it's only strengthens my stance on Ranfurlie!

Mate I built it!!!!! it was done twice, of course i like it.

Are you a member at Ranfurlie by chance?

spanner039
26th February 2013, 02:55 PM
Nice Lefty

spanner039
26th February 2013, 02:58 PM
oh wow.

this could get ugly.

No wonder courses are getting butchered if there are decision makers with views like this.

We are talking 25 odd years ago that's what you did

Its different these days

OK what about this one the old 8th at Woodlands was better or worse

Moe Norman
26th February 2013, 03:02 PM
Mate I built it!!!!! it was done twice, of course i like it.


the current first is an abomination, you should hang your head in shame.

I'd love to know the thought process that went in to it though? Was it just 'make it longer' ?

I can't see any merit in the way it is now at all.

LeftyHoges
26th February 2013, 03:02 PM
We are talking 25 odd years ago that's what you did

Its different these days

OK what about this one the old 8th at Woodlands was better or worse

What was that Cam? I've only ever played it as a 190m par 3. Good strong hole that one now.

spanner039
26th February 2013, 03:07 PM
the current first is an abomination, you should hang your head in shame.

I'd love to know the thought process that went in to it though? Was it just 'make it longer' ?

I can't see any merit in the way it is now at all.

How so? as for the head in shame, bit really...................

The move was to lengthen the 2nd and move the green to the right getting it away from the 18th green it was a very congested area. In doing so they made a better hole. Its been done and a long time ago, i wouldn't loose any sleep over it.

spanner039
26th February 2013, 03:11 PM
What was that Cam? I've only ever played it as a 190m par 3. Good strong hole that one now.

It was about 230 could have been longer, with the green straight back from the existing one. One of the problems in those days was players hitting 3 woods straight at the 3rd green.

Bunkers were similar with only one on the left the existing fairway bunkers were still there, A long par 3 at Woodlands, wouldn't be out of place these days.

BGH
26th February 2013, 03:17 PM
the current first is an abomination, you should hang your head in shame.

I'd love to know the thought process that went in to it though? Was it just 'make it longer' ?

I can't see any merit in the way it is now at all.

Can you explain your reasoning? It's a nice easy introduction to the course, looks picturesque from the tee + clubhouse, and has a variety of ways to play it. Not my favourite hole on the course but I still think it is a great hole.

spanner039
26th February 2013, 03:26 PM
Hold the phone. You don't rate Miranda?

Changed my mind after a clam down

Shes not bad

I liked the barmaid at Spring Valley though. Hot!!!!!

spanner039
26th February 2013, 03:30 PM
Thanks for resurrecting this thread Courty

Its just swell !!!!!!

LeftyHoges
26th February 2013, 03:33 PM
Changed my mind after a clam down

Shes not bad

I liked the barmaid at Spring Valley though. Hot!!!!!

No wonder everyone was so keen to buy me a beer that day! :lol:

Judge Smails
26th February 2013, 03:57 PM
Lefty, Spanner, I think, and I might be wrong, but because you don't see what you're used to at Ranfurlie, you don't like it and therefore don't want to look any further. Sometimes you can't see the forest for the trees, or in this case, the lack of them.

Yes I am a Ranfurlie member and you're not alone in your assumption of the course. We have blokes there wanting mounds in the fairways, Pine Trees alongside 8, trees in the middle of 8&13, the rough slashed to an inch all over the course, people wondering why there are no doglegs. You're never going to please 100% of the people 100% of the time but the course isn't boring. Tree lined corridors, greens that ball plug into, ponds with fountains and holes that dictate where and how far you can hit are boring.

Did I read somewhere that someone suggested Healesville type greens would have made Ranfurlie more interesting, it would make it impossible! This is the sort of GCA or design that would lead to disaster.

Like you have pointed out, you're entitled to your opinion however when someone with more knowledge about the subject at hand attempts to enlighten you (and I'm not saying me, there are plenty here who know a LOT more about this stuff then me) to dismiss them is sillyness at best. Listening to Andrew, Matty or Jack and co you might learn something and as a result become a better informed person overall. Now that cant be a bad thing can it? You might even find out that Ranfurlies not as boring to you as it once was and in doing so, make it more enjoyable to play there and maybe other places as well.

LeftyHoges
26th February 2013, 04:36 PM
Lefty, Spanner, I think, and I might be wrong, but because you don't see what you're used to at Ranfurlie, you don't like it and therefore don't want to look any further. Sometimes you can't see the forest for the trees, or in this case, the lack of them.

Yes I am a Ranfurlie member and you're not alone in your assumption of the course. We have blokes there wanting mounds in the fairways, Pine Trees alongside 8, trees in the middle of 8&13, the rough slashed to an inch all over the course, people wondering why there are no doglegs. You're never going to please 100% of the people 100% of the time but the course isn't boring. Tree lined corridors, greens that ball plug into, ponds with fountains and holes that dictate where and how far you can hit are boring.

Did I read somewhere that someone suggested Healesville type greens would have made Ranfurlie more interesting, it would make it impossible! This is the sort of GCA or design that would lead to disaster.

Like you have pointed out, you're entitled to your opinion however when someone with more knowledge about the subject at hand attempts to enlighten you (and I'm not saying me, there are plenty here who know a LOT more about this stuff then me) to dismiss them is sillyness at best. Listening to Andrew, Matty or Jack and co you might learn something and as a result become a better informed person overall. Now that cant be a bad thing can it? You might even find out that Ranfurlies not as boring to you as it once was and in doing so, make it more enjoyable to play there and maybe other places as well.

Like I said, I'm the first to admit that I have no architectural knowledge what-so-ever but I doubt too many here have as much knowledge as Spanner. And If we're not alone in our opinion of the course (in-line with MEMBERS) then why has there been such outrage over an opinion that the course is a bit on the boring side? I appreciate every course I walk onto, whether it be Metropolitan (my top visited course) or Timboon (my bottom visited course). It's not about seeing what we're used to and not liking it. I've already stated that I like it numerous times. I just find it boring. Simple as that. I haven't dismissed anyone's opinion here, and don't do that. I don't agree, but I don't dismiss. I would love to play a round there and listen to what they have to say about each hole, but I severely doubt it's going to change my opinion.

As an aside, I tend to agree with a few strategically placed mounds, but pine trees on left (I'm assuming) of 8, trees in between 8 & 13 and more doglegs are not good ideas. Neither is slashing the rough. That would be the worst idea of all.

P.S. I made a mistake with a hole before, it's not 4 I'm a fan of, it's 5. I actually think that is a great golf hole and could nearly squeeze into a spot in my fantasy 18.

Lobsta
26th February 2013, 05:10 PM
This thread has gotten too in depth for where it is.

Can a mod move it to somewhere more appropriate? Like ISG?

Bring back Courty complaining about the size of his tree!

kev
26th February 2013, 05:11 PM
2014 Victorian OZgolf champion.

You heard it here first! ;-)

I'm sure DC would have something to say about that.

Judge Smails
26th February 2013, 05:12 PM
There are less informed opinions at ISG than at kindergartens when it comes to golf.

WBennett
26th February 2013, 05:55 PM
Jees Smails, you get down to single figures and then know everything!

Next we'll see Clayt's open an account here...

Captain Nemo
26th February 2013, 08:13 PM
Jees Smails, you get down to single figures and then know everything!

Next we'll see Clayt's open an account here...
Isn't he on isg?

muldude
26th February 2013, 08:17 PM
There are less informed opinions at ISG than at kindergartens when it comes to golf.

True that bro....

WBennett
26th February 2013, 08:28 PM
Isn't he on isg?

Probably. Have not been there in years. He is on tgf

Webster
26th February 2013, 09:38 PM
Firstly, apologies for not jumping back into this thread for a few hours - it's one thing to be reading posts whilst flying down the Hamilton Highway at 100k's; it's another thing altogether to be typing detailed replies, other than a few questions. So now with a bit more time (and a few reds under my belt) here goes:

Spanner, it seems from piecing the details together than you were on the staff at Comm between about 1990 and about 1997. Perhaps the period of greatest upheaval within the Club, and now often referred to by the members as "the darkest days of Commonwealth". The period during which a classic era sandbelt course, not so long before ranked number 2 (yes TWO, not a typo) in the country, went under the knife to become "better, stronger, harder" all in the name of attracting the interest of the AGU in holding the 1993 Australian Open at the course (which ended up at Metro - more about that later). Under the expert guidance of Kevin Hartley, with the input of more than one egotistical long term member and a captain who had absolutely no idea what he was doing, the works began in earnest in early 1990 at the first hole.

Ahhh the old first hole. A wonderful, tantalising short par four of 245 metres played to an angled green which was certainly driveable but difficult to hit with anything other than a near perfect shot. And if missed in anything but the perfect short left position, was extremely difficult to get on the green. Hittable with "a 4 iron?" I don't think so sport. Always a 3 wood or cut driver for me back then with the persimmon, but only on the days when a few pre round pots inspired a bit of foolish bravery, usually ending my round in the left tea-tree or a slower death well out to the right. More often than not a 5 iron and precise wedge to the small contoured green , two putts (thank you very much!) and off to the second tee.
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b271/gurngunja/1st-01-80s.jpg
So what did they do in the search for that Aust Open? They bulldozed the green and made it into a dogleg to the right. With a really shitty bog standard two tiered green that faced the wrong way, with penal bunkering both sides of the fairway (just like no other holes you will see at Commonwealth!!), even using some of the bunkers from the old hole (like the one on the left). Famously since played as two 9 irons in the Port Phillip Open by a past Vic Am champ.

Did I mention how much the new first sucked? Well it sucked balls. A LOT. Did it retain any of the strategic intent of the old hole, or many of the others at Commonwealth that inspired Tom Doak to call it a strategic masterpiece? NUP. It became a long iron up the middle and a wedge to that shitty green. Just boring. Of course the Captain thought it looked wonderful out the window of the Clubhouse and that was all that mattered.

Spanner you must have enjoyed building and rebuilding that green and putting surface several times. It was quite a comedy, but sadly with no members laughing. My favourite moment was when all the grass died just before the 1991 Club Championships, the solution for which was to transplant a rectangle of fresh turf onto the green measuring about 3m by 5 m, surrounded by dying bentgrass (picture a ping pong table laid flat in the middle of a basketball court). I made the semis that year - I remember it vividly.

Of course the excuses came thick and fast for the poor curator ( I can't call him a superintendant as that would be disrepectful to blokes who do the job properly). I don't really blame him though, considering he wasn't really qualified for the job, unless you include sitting on the balcony with the Skipper downing free Club Red whilst the place went quickly to shit around them. The decline in turf quality and architectural standards was matched only by the clubs slide down the rankings and of course the dream of the 93 Open evaporated into thin air. While we, the members shrugged our shoulders and hoped for the best, whilst enduring the worst for the next decade. To follow was the loss of 7 (it still burns me deeply), the mangling of 6, 8, 10 and 12 and within a couple of years the Club and course were the laughing stock of the sandbelt.

I don't even need to mention the tree and shrub planting extravaganza that followed, nor when the greens were turned to ash in 1999 by good old Bazza, although I'd hope that you will remember those magnificent flower beds that you must have helped plant around all the tees. They looked delightful. Until the VGA went for a walk around when the Club sought out the VIC Open and said "they'll all have to go so the crowds could get around". So no sooner did they appear in full bloom, only to again disappear, along with a couple of hundred grand that they cost. And the Vic Open? It was never talked about again after the turf went down the toilet in a hurry.

So forgive me when someone says they think the new course is better than the old. It simply isn't. Its not even close. And I haven't even gotten onto how all the small internal contours on the greens were levelled out when you and the boys made those greens bigger and flatter (but faster!). The Commonwealth of the late 1980's was a wonderful strategic challenge rightly positioned in the upper echelons of world golf course architecture. What was done to it was nothing short of a crime, a sin, a disgrace in every way.

Of course you are entitled to your opinion. As you should be. Which I hope you will understand that I will politely ignore. I dont blame you for being part of what happened, you probably thought you were just doing your job and doing the right thing. No hard feelings. But spare a thought for those of us that saw it all unfold into the frightful mess that it was over the next ten years.

Love, Jack (20 yr+ member at CGC)

mike
26th February 2013, 09:42 PM
You typed that while driving?

mike
26th February 2013, 09:59 PM
I don't understand or care about architecture but jeez Jack that was a well written post

spanner039
26th February 2013, 11:06 PM
Nice post Jack.

backintheswing
27th February 2013, 09:09 AM
I still want to know how that tree grew back at Cairns. The thing was laying over. The trunk on it looks pretty large now.

Moe Norman
27th February 2013, 09:37 AM
Can you explain your reasoning? It's a nice easy introduction to the course, looks picturesque from the tee + clubhouse, and has a variety of ways to play it. Not my favourite hole on the course but I still think it is a great hole.

I just came back to post an explanation, but I think Jack handled it rather well.

Courty
27th February 2013, 11:30 AM
I still want to know how that tree grew back at Cairns. The thing was laying over. The trunk on it looks pretty large now.

From memory there were actually 2 trees close together. 1 got cut & the other blew over? Haysey may be able to confirm.

haysey
27th February 2013, 01:37 PM
Yep. The regrowth is from the tree that was cut down.

Courty
28th February 2013, 05:41 AM
Courty

Here is a photo of the 3rd from the tee.
http://i383.photobucket.com/albums/oo272/gollfer69/cairns3_zpsef730de8.jpg

I believe I asked for the bunker on the left to be filled in. By the way there was some bizarre story that when Marsh / Watson built the green the foreman had the plan arse about and the bunker got built on the left instead of the right side. Not sure it was just a story but knowing the foreman it does not surprise me.
I tweaked the left side bunker to bite more into the front-left of the green.
A fairway trap as proposed on the right side with that tree and a couple of his mates to be removed.
The right side greenside trap was ok but the rear-left one could go.

http://i383.photobucket.com/albums/oo272/gollfer69/3rdb_zps0e32552d.jpg

Ahh, thanks for clarifying, Dickie!
If the fairway trap is to be removed, would the mounding around it also be flattened out?

Tomson
28th February 2013, 09:22 AM
Courty

Here is a photo of the 3rd from the tee.
http://i383.photobucket.com/albums/oo272/gollfer69/cairns3_zpsef730de8.jpg

I believe I asked for the bunker on the left to be filled in. By the way there was some bizarre story that when Marsh / Watson built the green the foreman had the plan arse about and the bunker got built on the left instead of the right side. Not sure it was just a story but knowing the foreman it does not surprise me.
I tweaked the left side bunker to bite more into the front-left of the green.
A fairway trap as proposed on the right side with that tree and a couple of his mates to be removed.
The right side greenside trap was ok but the rear-left one could go.

http://i383.photobucket.com/albums/oo272/gollfer69/3rdb_zps0e32552d.jpg

That will never happen, club houses and pro shops and other things are more important then our course.

solarman
28th February 2013, 09:38 AM
Dicky, can you also do something about the housing development on the right. It still comes into play. :)

solarman
28th February 2013, 09:44 AM
Ah Jack, memories of teh Commonwealth.

1. Tossing my ball out of bunkers as they were to deep.
2. Nice old lady returning my wallet I dropped.
3. Taking my NORMAL STANCE while putting (fkin hilarious still to talk ab out)
4. The dressing room with all the grand stuff.
5. Your hospitality.

Yep, hats off to Commonwealth game.