Purpose of grooves on iron heads

[razaar]

One of the recent things I have learnt about golf is the reason for grooves on iron heads. In the 40 years I have been playing this game I have incorrectly assumed that the grooves provide grip to spin the ball...seems I was wrong. Studies show that spin comes from the conversion of sliding to rolling as the compressed ball moves up the clubface. A ball compressed on the clubface by hundreds or even thousands of pounds of force doesn't need grooves to improve friction with clean, dry contact.

A book by Alastair Cochran & John Stobbs "The Search for the Perfect Swing" first published in 1968 by the Golf Society of Great Britian, reveals that the sole purpose of grooves is to channel away moisture, grass, dirt, slime etc to reduce the amount of sliding of the ball up the face. Like the tread on a tire; racing cars have smooth tyres on a dry track and treaded tyres on a wet track. This explains why the pros get flyers from the rough, the grass between the ball and clubface allows for more sliding, which results in less spin and higher launch angle. Drivers don't need grooves because they are hit from a perfect lie.

Square grooves because of their bigger volume (twice that of V grooves) channel away more lubricant than V grooves and subsequently reduce the loss of spin. This is the reason for the new rules by the R&A and USGA concerning grooves.
http://www.randa.org/index.cfm?cfid=14864381&cftoken=43206256&action=news.newsDetail&newsid=1055

[henno]

Tom Wishon has always said that from the fairway, in the dry, a golfer could hit a flat-faced (grooveless) iron with the same spin as one with grooves.

Once you think about it, it makes perfect sense.

[Webster]

Once you think about it, it makes perfect sense.

Not to some people here henno....

[henno]

The tyre analogy given by razaar makes it easy to work out. In perfect conditions, the friction of a flat face against something sticky (in this case the ball) will be maximised by increasing the surface area of the contact patch.

This, of course all falls apart once you add a third element to the mix, such as water.

For the same reason that we don't all drive around with slick tyres (it's not the 90% of the time when slicks are fine, is the 10% of the time that they are rendered useless) we don't have grooveless irons.

Who wants to have to change all 4 tyres on their car everytime it rains, and who wants to swap in-and-out a dozen clubs depending on the whether?

[3oneday]

who wants to swap in-and-out a dozen clubs depending on the whether?
on whether what ?

[PeteyD]

on whether the wether gets wet in the weather?

[henno]

on whether what ?

Sorry adlo. I couldn't handle the pressure.


You are forgiven.... this time. Just never make a mistake again.

[Jarro]

.. but surely ones handicap must come into calculation ?

High handicappers (like me) just can't spin the ball.

[TheTrueReview]

All of this talk about square grooves & v grooves makes me wonder whether 2009 Vokeys are going to become a lot more sought after by social golfers next year. Who'd want to buy a v groove wedge?

[LarryLong]

I'm with Jarro, couldn't spin one if I had sandpaper on the clubface. :)

That said, here's a question. Do grooves have to be parallel to the ground along the club face? If they act like the grooves in tyres, could there be an improvement to be had by using similar patterns to the ones you see on tyres to get the water and stuff to flow away from the ball faster?

*If somebody makes a million out of this idea, I'll stay out of court if you give me a new set of sticks every year for life*

[razaar]

:)

That said, here's a question. Do grooves have to be parallel to the ground along the club face? If they act like the grooves in tyres, could there be an improvement to be had by using similar patterns to the ones you see on tyres to get the water and stuff to flow away from the ball faster?

*If somebody makes a million out of this idea, I'll stay out of court if you give me a new set of sticks every year for life*

Hahaha, good one LL.:) I think you are looking in the opposite direction to the R&A & USGA.

[Golfnut]

So what your saying is that the square grooves don't give the ball the spin?!?!?!....do the square grooves give aid/increase the spin of said ball in dry conditions?

[razaar]

Yes to 1 and no to 2.

[vovo]

I'm with Jarro, couldn't spin one if I had sandpaper on the clubface. :)

That said, here's a question. Do grooves have to be parallel to the ground along the club face? If they act like the grooves in tyres, could there be an improvement to be had by using similar patterns to the ones you see on tyres to get the water and stuff to flow away from the ball faster?

*If somebody makes a million out of this idea, I'll stay out of court if you give me a new set of sticks every year for life*

I think that because contact is typically static, (i.e. the ball is compressed on the club face), where as the treads on a car tyre are there to prevent hydrodynamic lubrication occurring (aquaplaning, where a wave of lubricant is pushed in front of the tyre until sufficient load can be carried by the lubricant).

I would say in my opinion, the volume of the grooves and not design would be the best improvement, however this is just my opinion.

[Golfnut]

Yes to 1 and no to 2.

I'm stuggling with this concept raz.....mate of mine just about cheeze grates every ball he hits with his short irons...I mean he doesn't take shreds off but you can clearly see where the grooves have penetrated the skin...surely this proves the grooves are biting into the ball and thus increasing spin?

[markTHEblake]

A book by Alastair Cochran & John Stobbs "The Search for the Perfect Swing" first published in 1968 by the Golf Society of Great Britian

You would want to be reading this article segment then, and by the sounds of what you like, the whole bloody site.
http://www.tutelman.com/golf/design/head1.php?ref=#grooves

and this
http://www.ralphmaltby.com/65
http://www.ralphmaltby.com/71

[markTHEblake]

and this.

http://www.ralphmaltby.com/system/assets/168/Iron_Face_Friction_Component_During_Impact_copy.jp g

[razaar]

Thanks MTB....the club ho's will find those sites very informative.:)

[peter_rs]

That said, here's a question. Do grooves have to be parallel to the ground along the club face? If they act like the grooves in tyres, could there be an improvement to be had by using similar patterns to the ones you see on tyres to get the water and stuff to flow away from the ball faster?



Yes to 1 and no to 2.

Are you sure, or is it only a new change The SMT Solitaire was designed for that reason.

http://clubmaker-online.com/fairwaygroup.gif

I think MTB & Scott_G even used one of these

[Iain]

I think Razaar was answering Golfnut's questions rather than LL's questions.


So what your saying is that the square grooves don't give the ball the spin?!?!?!....do the square grooves give aid/increase the spin of said ball in dry conditions?

[razaar]

Are you sure, or is it only a new change The SMT Solitaire was designed for that reason.

http://clubmaker-online.com/fairwaygroup.gif

I think MTB & Scott_G even used one of these
Mate, this is all new to me..you have as much info as I have...blakey's links in this thread should answer your question.:)
I should add that wood heads differ from iron heads in that they tend to spread the grass because of their design and having no hosel. Therefore the contact would be cleaner with removal of moisture being the main issue. This may be the reason for only a few grooves on fairway woods, and more grooves on utility woods.

[goonie]

Grooves, no grooves, square or V, all I know is that my new huge square groove Nike VR wedges spin the ball more than any other wedges I've had. And I have dramatic increase in spin on chips, pitches and less than full shots. And from memory the usga testing found that milled faces and square grooves increased spin in dry conditions, but only a small increase on full shots.

There is a huge thread on this somewhere already but I can't be bothered finding it.

[acem8]

The sweetspot on my irons is fairly worn out by the previous owner so I've been using the toe and the heel. Maybe I'll try using the sweetspot now and benefit from the extra yardage of the odd flyer?

[adlo]

Sorry adlo. I couldn't handle the pressure.

:lol::lol:

Awesome, I found myself re-reading this thread and stumbled upon this. How didn't I trip over such solid
http://www.econbrowser.com/archives/2005/12/gold_bullion.jpg

[Ferrins]

My irons all have a dog's arse on my them but still get plenty of spin.

[mrbluu]

Calling Liptout!!!!

[liptout]

Calling Liptout!!!!

So much to say, but so little time to say it.....

So I'll just go with this:

"pffft, grooves schmooves!!"

:D :D :D