Irons going left, woods going right.

[henno]

Anyone have a quick one-liner for what I am doing wrong?

In the beginning I always had a bit of right-to-left. As I got stronger, reg shafts and too much offset soon turned that into very left. Since moving everything to stiff, all has been good.

Then all of a sudden, all woods are going left-to-right (and I mean a long way; a fade doesn't even begin to describe it.)

It is predictable, and I can live with it, but on dogleg-lefts or tight fareways I am stuffed, not to mention the loss of distance. (Naturally the more I go after it, the further right it goes).

Tell me gurus, what simple thing/s am I not doing? I have a game in the morning and I know I'm going to suck.

[adlo]

Buy new clubs

[henno]

Buy new clubs

They all go the same way. I hit three different drivers today; all of them "old faithfuls" at some point.

[adlo]

They all go the same way. I hit three different drivers today; all of them "old faithfuls" at some point.
Bugger.

I tried the quick one liner. Sorry.

Have you messed around with ball position?

[henno]

Have you messed around with ball position?

Maybe I have. In desperation I was moving it back and forward today, but the few I tried to force left, went way WAAY left. I seem to have lost the ability to hit shots that move just slightly left or right.

Frustrating to say the least.

[adlo]

I think we all can feel the pain of losing control of the big dog at times.

I found that I was over compensating with alignment and ball position. Was having the very same chat with rebjon on course today. He was trying to get his dependable fade working but had over compensated with a closed stance and was either hooking/pulling or blocking way right. Getting the stance back to square helped a lot, and then play around a little bit with ball position, find the right spot and boom. Spot on.

If your swing is the same as your iron swing, I'd say its alignment and ball position. My $0.02.

[henno]

If your swing is the same as your iron swing, I'd say its alignment and ball position. My $0.02.

You could be right there. I think my alignment is probably out of whack. That'll be the first thing I check on the range in the morning, followed by ball position.

[Courty]

Check your grip pressure.

Remember this one: hold it like you would a budgie... not so loose that it will fly away, but not so tight that you will crush it.

[henno]

Check your grip pressure.

Remember this one: hold it like you would a budgie... not so loose that it will fly away, but not so tight that you will crush it.

I do tend to grip to hard, without question. But I have never understood how grip pressure can affect the swing?

Is it just because the tension in the forearms reduces fluidity/flexibility in the downswing?

[adlo]

Tension could be amplifying the slice.

It is so much harder to keep check on alignment with the driver as you are much further from the ball. I am no coach, but I know how often I find it is my downfall.

[Dazza]

Check your grip pressure.

Remember this one: hold it like you would a budgie... not so loose that it will fly away, but not so tight that you will crush it.

That's a good one Courty.
Another that a pro told me- It's an open tube of toothpaste, hold it tight enough so no toothpaste comes out of the tube.

Gripping it too hard was a huge problem of mine, seem to be getting on top of it now.

[adlo]

Doesn't really explain why irons and woods are going in different directions.

[rick3003]

I am no swing guru but alignment could be the key. I had the exact same problem until I fixed my alignment.

My feet would be to the right (closed) and my shoulders to the left (open). The only way you can hit the ball is to come over the top resulting in a left to right flight.

[TheTrueReview]

Hogan's "Modern Fundamentals .." really explains it well, particularly that the light grip at the start doesn't always stay light throughout the swing.


"There's no need for overdoing the strength of your grip. In fact, there's a positive harm in it: you automatically tighten the cords in the left arm and render it so stiff, so deaf that it will be unable to hear your requests and give you a muscular response when you start your swing. Too tight a grip will also immobilise your wrist. A secure, alive, and comfortable grip is what you want, for, as the weighted clubhead is swung back, your fingers instinctively tighten their grasp on the shaft."

[LarryLong]

Sounds like you've been choking the budgie Henno. :mrgreen:

I had a similar problem not that long ago, and after checking a few things I found that I was actually setting up with the driver face way open at address. Sounds like a no-brainer, but I actually wasn't noticing. It was partly because I wasn't used to an offset driver. I closed it a bit and checked where it was pointing when my hands were in front of the ball at impact and it looked much better. Bingo. Slice cured.

It's probably alignment of some sort.

[henno]

Suggestions noted. It is clearly not a monumental swing failure than has developed over months or years. It is one or two silly things I am missing.

Time to check the basics I think.

[Moe Norman]

put your left foot significantly in front of your right, like you're setting up for a low hook. - but then swing normally. It will feel like you are swinging around yourself and it will be hard to come outside to in.

This is just a quick fix, but it is almost impossible to hit a slice from this stance.

[henno]

This is just a quick fix, but it is almost impossible to hit a slice from this stance.

Thanks.

That's the idea. It was a "quick break" so (initially) all I need is a quick fix. I just need to find that one lightbulb to go off and take me back to my original dodgy swing, rather than this even dogier slice.

[Johnny Canuck]

i can get the same problems and i find it stems from two things.
1) my lower body gets moving ahead too quickly. Keep it quiet.
2) i don't finish my swing with a proper follow through. I get lazy and either bring my hands through way too low and get a draw or I don't finish the swing, which doesn't get the head through and I get a cut, usually with the driver.

[Scottt]

Henno, it's because you have massive guns now. Lay off the 'roids. Normal programming will resume :lol:

[henno]

Henno, it's because you have massive guns now. Lay off the 'roids. Normal programming will resume :lol:

I could take all the 'roids in the world and still be a weedy sonofabitch.

[henno]

Well, my driver was (predictably) about as reliable as a two-bob watch today. 3w was good (little draws) as were my irons (less lefty, more straighty). The stats tell the story:

3 FIR
3 GIR (all from the FIRs above)
5 lost balls.
All GIRs ended up being pars; no birdies.
Only one 3-jab from memory.

That's about all I could take out of today's game. My team won 7/6, but I only contributed to 2 of the holes won.

I was thinking about shaft length, but my 3w is 43.5", and still went straight, and with little tweaks would go slightly left or right when needed.

I think I am suffering from Driver-itis; one swing for the driver and another for the rest of the clubs.

[Jono]

Henno, what loft is your driver? If you play with a loft that is too low for your swing speed, the tendency is to try to hit it on the way up too much. You tend to hang your weight back and the result is either a big push out right or a push slice.

[henno]

Well, it is a 9.5*, but it goes quite high as it is. I would actually like it to go a little lower, so I can't see myself consciously trying to hit it any higher.

I am not sure what the actual measured loft on this head is (r7 tp shallow) but it is only marginally lower than my 12* Geek (closer to 11* actual) and waaaay higher than my 9* Geek (which I shelved as I do need to hit "up" on that one; it is loooowww).

My left knee has been a bit dodgy this week. Could I be subconsciously not transfering enough weight back to the front foot as a result? The ball was firing quite high today, eventhough I was doing my best to keep it down.

[adlo]

Did you check your alignment with the driver Henno??

[henno]

Did you check your alignment with the driver Henno??

Yeah, it was a little out, but I think I am coming OTT a bit as well. It's always the basics. I need to get grip, plane and alignment down before I bother looking atanything else.

[adlo]

True. Moe's suggestion is a good one, or another one is to swing the club like a baseball bat a heap of times and then bend over and hit the ball with the same swing. Cures a slice in no time :)

[razaar]

Anyone have a quick one-liner for what I am doing wrong?

In the beginning I always had a bit of right-to-left. As I got stronger, reg shafts and too much offset soon turned that into very left. Since moving everything to stiff, all has been good.

Then all of a sudden, all woods are going left-to-right (and I mean a long way; a fade doesn't even begin to describe it.)

It is predictable, and I can live with it, but on dogleg-lefts or tight fareways I am stuffed, not to mention the loss of distance. (Naturally the more I go after it, the further right it goes).

Tell me gurus, what simple thing/s am I not doing? I have a game in the morning and I know I'm going to suck.
Classic case of hitting out of the heel. Do some research on the centre of gravity of irons & woods and the gear effect of the driver.

[henno]

Classic case of hitting out of the heel. Do some research on the centre of gravity of irons & woods and the gear effect of the driver.

Interesting. I am definately a heel hitter in my irons, I might have to toss some impact tape on the big dog and see where I'm connecting with the ball.

Or even simpler, I might try and intentionally hit a few out of the toe and see what happens.

[Moe Norman]

did you try my 'quick fix' ?

[henno]

did you try my 'quick fix' ?

I did, and it worked as a band-aid for the slice but for some reason I couldn't "dial it in". I topped a few balls, then hit a few fat, then an almost sky-ball. So I pretty much gave it away.

By the turn, I decided to just work with the power-fade and lay up for the dogleg lefts.

[virge666]

henno - more decription'

break you flight into a couple of things...

1. What direction does it start in
2. Does it get higher or lower as it goes left or right
3. Does the distance suffer
4. divot depth and direction.

8iron and 3 iron distance and your swing speed please.

Raz, I don't think it is gear effect - you don't uaully get huge shapes with gear effect... could be way off though.... just need more info.

[henno]

henno - more decription'

No problem.


1. What direction does it start in

Generally the shot starts straight and fades right approximately half way through it's trajectory. I am not pushing it right, if that is what you mean.


2. Does it get higher or lower as it goes left or right

It goes far higher when it goes right.


3. Does the distance suffer

Yep.


4. divot depth and direction.

Iron divots are generally straight on, with a decent depth (far deeper in the short irons). Driver obviously has no divot, but in the two I hit fat today (not generally something i do) were pointing left, hence the OTT thoughts earlier.


8iron and 3 iron distance and your swing speed please.

8-iron 130 carry, 3-iron 175-180. Swing speed unknown.

[adlo]

8-iron 130 carry, 3-iron 175-180. Swing speed unknown.
At a rough guess, I'd say 92-95mph with the driver ;)

[henno]

I've actually brought my swing speed down somewhat (at least in my irons :-)) on purpose. I was hitting my 8-iron around 140+ carry, but a bout of the shanks had me slow things up a bit. No need to be long if you can't hit the middle.

[adlo]

Ok smart arse, 100mph with the driver and an 85% swing with the irons. Happy??

[henno]

Oh, it's not a pissing contest. I honestly have no idea what my swing speed is, nor care at this stage. I was just mentioning it as perhaps another reason I am starting to find the right side: I now swing like a girly man.

[adlo]

I know, just having a larf (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1SK3y1a8TYs).

Don't think a slower swing will create the slice unless you are quitting on the thing.

I used to play with some old tackers who would be hitting 3 wood from 140m and they still hit a draw.

[razaar]

No problem.



Generally the shot starts straight and fades right approximately half way through it's trajectory. I am not pushing it right, if that is what you mean.



It goes far higher when it goes right.



Yep.



Iron divots are generally straight on, with a decent depth (far deeper in the short irons). Driver obviously has no divot, but in the two I hit fat today (not generally something i do) were pointing left, hence the OTT thoughts earlier.



8-iron 130 carry, 3-iron 175-180. Swing speed unknown.

If this was a quiz question my answer would be that you are not keeping your centre during the swing and your through swing plane is too flat.

Centering

Backswing -the right leg stays as it was at address and acts as a support column for holding the swing into centre.

Throughswing - the head has to be held behind the axis point to keep the triangle of the shoulders and arms from straying forward. Get a feeling of strength in the head at the top of the swing and keep it there.

Through swing plane

Try to get the hands to finish directly above the left shoulder.

Of course its all for naught if your address position is all wrong.

[virge666]

Iron divots are generally straight on, with a decent depth (far deeper in the short irons). Driver obviously has no divot, but in the two I hit fat today (not generally something i do) were pointing left, hence the OTT thoughts earlier

Straight divots mean it is not OTT. Hence the Q.

My bet is sliding the lower half with an open clubface @ impact. As razaar said - it's about keeping the centre.

I would follow his advice to the letter. You could also hit some 5, 7 and 9 irons with your feet together.

From what I can gather from you posts - you are quite a fit bloke and that sort of distance in pensioner territory. I believe a change in technique would give you much more control and distance with little effort.

[Iain]

Virge, I thought sliding with an open club face at impact would cause a push cut?? Rather than a ball that starts straight??

[virge666]

Virge, I thought sliding with an open club face at impact would cause a push cut?? Rather than a ball that starts straight??

http://www.buddyallingolf.com/images/Chapter2-BallFlightLaws.pdf

[Jono]

Henno, why don't you post a video of your girly man swing? :razz:

[henno]

I don't have a video camera. I'll see if I can beg/borrow/steal one, but I busted my left knee over the weekend, so it may be at least a few days to a week before I try to swing a club in anger again.

[henno]

A range session has seemed to have hilighted exactly where I was going wrong. And yes, as usual it was basic stuff.

There was a series of problems all stemming back to one thing: the ball was waaaay too far forward in my stance. As a result, by the time my hands got there, my brain knew I was almost going to miss the ball so naturally would try and square the face down the target line, meanwhile my hips are still turning out. Blah blah, open stance, hit across the face, slice-tastic.

Also, it appears I had weakened my grip somewhat. I think that is once again a symptom of my brain trying to make up for the fact that I was waaay out of position at impact, and a weak grip was about the only way I was ever going to connect with the ball anyhow. This would also explain why, when I tried to eliminate the slice (stronger grip, big inside-out path) without actually moving the ball back, I would hit out of the toe and send the ball super-hooking left.

Also, it would explain why I didn't have the same slice in my irons, as I was still playing the ball far enough back in my stance that things still worked ok. It was just my woods for which I was messing with the ball position for some dicky reason.

Anyway, putting the ball back where it should be is all that I really had to do. There were three things wrong, but fixing just that one thing, naturally my brain can now compute the impact position and my grip and clubface just do their thing.

Now let's see if I can bring it to the course with at least some level of consistancy.

[adlo]

Bugger.

I tried the quick one liner. Sorry.

Have you messed around with ball position?
All of that in the forth post :)

[henno]

All of that in the forth post :)

Yeah I know mate. But on the course it is hard to get those "lightbulb" moments where you work it all out. I think I only hit the driver 12 times on Sunday. I think it took about 50 balls today before I looked down and slapped my forehead in disgust. :mrgreen:

[adlo]

I know, just joking. Had a very similar experience on course yesterday. Golfing stupidity.

[Scottt]

How far froward was the ball?

[henno]

How far froward was the ball?

Right in front of the middle of my left foot (the toes, not the heal).

[Johnny Canuck]

I know, just joking. Had a very similar experience on course yesterday. Golfing stupidity.

Was that breaking the shaft on a tree?

[adlo]

Was that breaking the shaft on a tree?
Nope, another one. That one was extra stupid :mrgreen:

[virge666]

There was a series of problems all stemming back to one thing: the ball was waaaay too far forward in my stance.

hate to be the bad guy... but if the ball was too far forward... you would be hitting everything way high and everything way right.

Sounds like a little bit of sliding is still the issue. Moving the ball back may help, but when you are out of sync - the hooks are coming.

Sorry.

[razaar]

I think I am suffering from Driver-itis; one swing for the driver and another for the rest of the clubs.
The problemo may lie in your setup. A good rule of thumb is to have the hands stay at a constant distance from your left thigh on all normal shots. That distance is best at the width of your fingers and thumb joined (one hand) about 11 cms. Its important to have your butt high to make room for the hands. If you look at the swings of all the top pros you will see that the hands are close to the thighs and knees at address and return through the same position at impact - well maybe a fraction higher because of centrifugal force, which is why the correct lie of irons enables a small coin to be fit under the toe at address.

One of the laws of physics which relate to the golf swing is that of angular acceleration. Without going into a lot of boring details it means that the nearer the power is to the centre of acceleration the more efficiently it can pass on to the hands. Which boils down to - when the hands are further away from the hips, the use of the hands to develop clubhead speed will be less effective than the use of the thighs and trunk to do the same job. Charles Barkley's swing is a great example.

[henno]

That distance is best at the width of your fingers and thumb joined (one hand) about 11 cms.

My hands, especially with the longer-shafted clubs, are way WAY further from my thigh than that. I would say 3-times that distance (if I am understanding it correctly).

Initially, won't this mess with my head and have me come over the top and outside in? (I am just recovering from a period of the shanks, and I am deadly scared of them at the moment :-))

[Iain]

Henno, you sound exactly like me?!!

Do you bend over at address a lot from the hips?

[virge666]

(I am just recovering from a period of the shanks, and I am deadly scared of them at the moment :-))

Once more . . . sliding !!!

You guys are fixing symptoms.

[henno]

Do you bend over at address a lot from the hips?

Sure do!

[henno]

Once more . . . sliding !!!

You guys are fixing symptoms.

Gimme a cause! I'll try it tomorrow for shits and giggles.

[virge666]

Gimme a cause! I'll try it tomorrow for shits and giggles.

It is about TURN. And it is about the direction of turn. You are doing exaxctly what Zig is doing. Instead of coiling your upper body, you are sliding to the right and reverse pivoting.

Try taking the club back WAY open and FLAT, and I mean WAY open on the way up and way open on the way down. This is pure Hogan.

get that right hip back, get your back to the target, COIL, don't slide, don't transfer your weight, don't let your head get higher, don't move behind the ball.

Here is your checklist
- get your right elbow pointing at the ground on the top of the backswing
- try and keep your rigth shoulder low.
- flat left wrist, angle in the right wrist.
- Your head is BEHIND your left hip.

Just lay the club on the plane and then bring it back on the same plane.

Nothing special, nothing belted, no leg drive - just up the plane and down the plane. use your shoulders more than your legs. lets your arms create the power and lag.

Watch Tigers practice swing. Watch how his lower body moves through the ball. Copy it

Enjoy

[henno]

Printed. That's going in the back pocket for tommorow morning's range session.

Thanks Virge!

[razaar]

My hands, especially with the longer-shafted clubs, are way WAY further from my thigh than that. I would say 3-times that distance (if I am understanding it correctly).

Initially, won't this mess with my head and have me come over the top and outside in? (I am just recovering from a period of the shanks, and I am deadly scared of them at the moment :-))
Not if you do a one piece take away by turning your chest over your right foot without moving your hips and legs to start your backswing. Its a turn and lift, and as Virge said in other threads, a drop of the arms and a turn of the body. Its the move that drops the arms that is key. Watch the guys in the Masters tomorrow. If your hands are as far from your body as you say. then you will have a balance problem which is one of the main causes of shanking. Next time you run into Gaz (Gary Calder) ask him if he recommends curling the toes up in the shoes to cure the shanks. You might try this in practice with the hands closer to the body.:)
This may be one of the reasons why we swing great one week and poorly the next. Our confidence is up when our swing is on song and sometimes we move our arms and hands out a little further to get more space, from then on its all downhill. Something to be aware of.:)

[henno]

I just had a few air-swings in the back yard, and ignoring the short irons (which I am not having too much trouble with) I have no idea how it is possible to have my hands that close to my thigh without either: a) taking a monumental divot (read: the fattest of the fat shots); or b) pointing the toe to the sky and grounding the heal.

The shafts are simply too long. Surely the longer the shaft, the further away from the thigh your hands will be? And considering that it is my woods where the current issue seems to be, I don't seem to be able to comprehend how a 40+ inch shaft can be swung one hand width's distance from the thigh.

(FYI, I was swinging a 3 iron... poorly)

[razaar]

I just had a few air-swings in the back yard, and ignoring the short irons (which I am not having too much trouble with) I have no idea how it is possible to have my hands that close to my thigh without either: a) taking a monumental divot (read: the fattest of the fat shots); or b) pointing the toe to the sky and grounding the heal.

The shafts are simply too long. Surely the longer the shaft, the further away from the thigh your hands will be? And considering that it is my woods where the current issue seems to be, I don't seem to be able to comprehend how a 40+ inch shaft can be swung one hand width's distance from the thigh.

(FYI, I was swinging a 3 iron... poorly)
Its a different feeling,thats for sure. It is important to keep the back to the target for as long as possible in the downswing to get a shallow inside attack on the ball. If the right shoulder gets into the act too soon it means a steep outside attack and mostly hitting ball and ground at the same time. We want the attack to be out at the target not down into the ground. Watch Tiger tomorrow, particularly how close the ball position is to his feet and where his hands are in relation to his body. The posture position is the key, it promotes perfect balance through violent motion.:)

[virge666]

Watch Tiger tomorrow, particularly how close the ball position is to his feet and where his hands are in relation to his body. The posture position is the key, it promotes perfect balance through violent motion.:)

I noticed this at Bayhill and last years masters reel.

He stands on top of the ball for the little cut shot he hits. and that posture just perfect.

he will have to putt very badly to lose the masters this year,.

[henno]

Things went reasonably well today. The score didn't reflect it, but I was let down by abismal putting on wet greens, rather than being saved by good chipping and putting for the same score in weeks gone by.

The few tips I have gathered from this and other threads has seemed to have helped somewhat. My "pensioner" swing, as Virge put it, is somewhat gone, and I am getting back to my distances of old with (what seems like) less effort. PW (47*) was flying 120-ish, 5-iron 170-ish. I could feel the increase in clubhead speed without the feeling of having to smash it to get it that far.

The driver still had some left-to-right about it, but nothing I couldn't deal with. I'll take the 10-20m reduction in driver distance due to my girly fade if I can hit reasonable iron shots.

[henno]

My woods have been going further and further right lately. A girly fade had become a devastating banana ball. That was the case, at least, until the 12th today. Out of absolute frustration I decided to slow everything down and just get it in the middle.

Whadaya know, a very slight loss in distance but dead bloody straight. The next 3 holes were all FIR, but tried "going after it" again on the 16th only to get back the silly slice. The par 3 17th obviously didn't have a driver, but on the 18th I knocked another boring drive dead down the centre again.

I need to curb the ego and not get carried away with too much confidence. Keep it slow and smooth and I can hit fairways more times than not. What a crazy thought!

[Jono]

Henno, perhaps if you think "smooth and relaxed" as opposed to "slow" you can still turn the ball over and regain the distance.

[PeteyD]

Were you trying to drive 16?

[henno]

I am sure clubhead speed is down, but hitting it out of the middle with effortless power is far better than off the toe with a huge grunt of powerful effort.

[henno]

Were you trying to drive 16?

16 at Indro is a 490m par 5. So yes.

EDIT: Oh, do you mean, why was I going after it? Why did I change? I think it was simply dumb confidence. "If I can hit it soft and straight, why can't I smash it straight?"

[henno]

Oh, I was playing the West course, not the par 3 16th on the East, which is probably what you were refering to.

[PeteyD]

No, i was thinking PAcific. 16 is the short par 4.

[henno]

Ah yeah. I don't have the balls to hit driver with all of that water on the right.

[Jono]

I am sure clubhead speed is down, but hitting it out of the middle with effortless power is far better than off the toe with a huge grunt of powerful effort.


What I meant was that perhaps the reason you block slice your longer clubs is because you are tense. If you relax and think smooth, you can still swing fast without tensing up and thus roll the club over easier.

[henno]

Gotcha. I'll start slower/smoother and see if I can get decent enough clubhead speed through the ball without bringing in too much tension through the rest of the downswing.

[Jono]

Gotcha. I'll start slower/smoother and see if I can get decent enough clubhead speed through the ball without bringing in too much tension through the rest of the downswing.


Henno, the best tip I've ever received was from an old timer. He said find some long grass and get a mid/short iron and make some "swishing" sounds. cutting through the grass. It's impossible to do this while you're tense. You have to be relaxed and release the clubhead but you will still generate good clubhead speed through the impact area.

[PeteyD]

How does making a "Swish" sound with your mouth help? Surely a load scream would be more beneficial ;)

[grandmasterb]

Its interesting cause i've gone the exact opposite Henno and its killing me. I've gone from hitting a controlled fade to the verge of a snap hook :(

Im at the point where im not looking forward to playing anymore because of it. Its the most noticeable with the driver and carries on down the bag.

Every now and then when i "allow" for it with the iron i block them right....