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kwantfm
24th March 2009, 10:51 AM
I was having a bit of a think about the downswing plane and also reading a little about The Golfing Machine (I'm still totally confused).

My understanding is that there are two main ways to deliver power in the swing:
1. Swinger - release of power comes from the left arm swinging across the body in the backswing and then separating again on the downswing; and
2. Hitter - release of power comes mainly from the straightening of the right (for a right handed golfer) arm on the downswing.

It seems to me that the main axis for power delivery for a swinger would be the left shoulder and that for a hitter would be the right elbow. Given that the axis is different does this mean the downswing plane will be different as well? I'm thinking that a hitter will likely align the shaft of the golf club with the right forearm and through the right elbow mid-way through the downswing whereas a swinger would likely have a steeper downswing plane as the release is occurring through the left shoulder which is higher and closer to the ball than the right elbow.

Thoughts and comments?

Webster
24th March 2009, 11:01 AM
Thoughts and comments?

You think too much about this stuff. Just hit it.

kwantfm
24th March 2009, 11:07 AM
You think too much about this stuff. Just hit it.

That's the way I approach most things. Given that I don't have much of an opportunity to play golf at the moment I'm figuring that at least having the right concepts in mind may help me "Just hit it" a little more efficiently.

Pinglauncher
24th March 2009, 12:03 PM
T

Hit ball, find ball, hit ball :wink:

virge666
24th March 2009, 12:21 PM
It seems to me that the main axis for power delivery for a swinger would be the left shoulder and that for a hitter would be the right elbow. ...STUFF . . .. plane as the release is occurring through the left shoulder which is higher and closer to the ball than the right elbow.


No it is pretty much the same due to the right elbow loading and releasing. technically it is different - in practice - not much change, it is more about the player than the technicalities.

Hands in front . . . right forearm on plane. the rest is something for idiots and yellow books.

if you want more technical knowledge . . . forget planes - learn to release the club head correctly. the rest will take care of itself.

virge666
24th March 2009, 12:24 PM
T

Hit ball, find ball, hit ball :wink:

And play in B and C grade for the rest of your life.

Learning doesn't have to be technical, some people like that way, some people don't.

The above only works once you have some faith in your golf swing. Then it is awesome advice.

razaar
24th March 2009, 12:49 PM
A good concept to have concerns the path the clubhead should take through the 30 cm contact area. This path should be inside to out - from inside past the right foot to outside past the left foot. The inside path is necessary to compensate for the right side which is uncoiling just before contact, which takes an outside path as it progresses. This means that a slight inside path through the ball which moves inside again beyond the ball position is very desireable in a golf swing. It won't happen if you don't stay centred through the swing until at least the 4.00 o'clock position (clock face behind you). This contact provided the clubface is held on target will produce a soft draw, which is a pretty good stock shot to have.

grandmasterb
24th March 2009, 03:23 PM
Think to much about the mechanics of the swing and your never going to be free when standing over the ball.

Trust your swing, pick your target, forget all the swing mechanics and smile after perfect execution :mrgreen:

virge666
24th March 2009, 03:39 PM
Trust your swing, pick your target, forget all the swing mechanics and smile after perfect execution :mrgreen:

FFS. Who invited the hippy ?

:)

grandmasterb
24th March 2009, 03:52 PM
FFS. Who invited the hippy ?

:)

Im a hippy cause i dont get caught up in the swing mechanics BS that keep the so called "teaching pros" and training aid sellers in business :-k

virge666
24th March 2009, 04:03 PM
Im a hippy cause i dont get caught up in the swing mechanics BS that keep the so called "teaching pros" and training aid sellers in business :-k

Two different things.

The question in the thread is a simple question about the fundementals of a golf swing. Yours is an effort to avoid the marketing machine of modern golf.

The two questions can exist in harmony, the difference being that your answer doesn't help nor answer the question in the thread.

Golf is a physical game. We all learn the physical parts of the game differently. We don't learn anything by smiling and thinking happy things.

You may like razaar and his paragraphs of inside this to outside 30cm of that, or you may like grip it and rip it or you may like something in between. But this Zen bullshit of clearing your mind assumes you have a swing you can trust.

razaar
24th March 2009, 06:07 PM
Yeah guess I did get a little long winded there.:)..I only think of the 30cm through the ball position (even during the backswing), staying centred and finishing on balance facing the target.

grandmasterb
24th March 2009, 07:00 PM
Two different things.

The question in the thread is a simple question about the fundementals of a golf swing. Yours is an effort to avoid the marketing machine of modern golf.

The two questions can exist in harmony, the difference being that your answer doesn't help nor answer the question in the thread.

Golf is a physical game. We all learn the physical parts of the game differently. We don't learn anything by smiling and thinking happy things.

You may like razaar and his paragraphs of inside this to outside 30cm of that, or you may like grip it and rip it or you may like something in between. But this Zen bullshit of clearing your mind assumes you have a swing you can trust.

Couldn't agree more but my whole point was that even the best golfers in the world have flaws in there swing and can feel out of synch from time to time so what hope to the weekend hackers have...

Golf is a physical game but its ALSO a mental one at that and personally i think the later is always overlooked and never worked on yet there are people out there that will spend $$$'s and practice all day everyday and get caught up with swing mechanics and the perfect swing.

I have far from a textbook golf swing and i know that and its very easy to spot the flaws in my swing but do i think about them everytime i have a club in my hands???? I DONT THINK SO...


Yeah guess I did get a little long winded there.:)..I only think of the 30cm through the ball position (even during the backswing), staying centred and finishing on balance facing the target.

Pretty much hit the nail on the head though IMO, it doesn't matter how to take the club away and get to the top or when/how you start the down swing. The important part is that you are square coming into and at impact. Hell look at guys like Furyk & Kenny Perry, nowhere near what you would class as a text book swing or even fundamentally sound but they are square at impact and it gets the job done.

virge666
25th March 2009, 07:08 AM
Couldn't agree more but my whole point was that even the . . . .STUFF !! . .. near what you would class as a text book swing or even fundamentally sound but they are square at impact and it gets the job done.

1. All the above is wonderful if you have a swing you can trust. "I shoot in the mid 70's" proves you have a swing, and hence proves my point.

2. The mental game of golf is KNOWLEDGE, not Zen. It is Risk vs Reward, it is process and it is execution. You can still play at the top level in the world thinking about mechanics, or you can try to clear your mind and execute. Both work fine.

3. I have yet to see a professional teacher just look at your impact position when teaching. The "moment of truth" is yet another BS old wifes tail in our game.

4. All Kwant asked was whether or not swingers and hitters had a different downswing plane, this is a simple question to answer which was answered by Razaar and myself. Quoting chants and incantations, whilst burning incense really just doesn't get the job done.

If I could suggest you figure out what you think the mental game is . . . and then work out where you are in your golf journey compared to other people who may not be at your level and hence have different requirements

"Harness in the good energy, block out the bad. Harness. Energy. Block. Bad. It's like a carousel. You put the quarter in, you get on the horse, it goes up and down, and around. Circular, circle. Feel it. Go with the flow."

Scottt
25th March 2009, 07:14 AM
Could you please post a video of this "textbook swing", grandmaster?

virge666
25th March 2009, 07:28 AM
Could you please post a video of this "textbook swing", grandmaster?

Don't be like that mate. Not needed, he is a new member and we don't need to piss any one off.

Everyone plays the game a different way, and everyone has ideals and processes. mine suit me and his suits himself.

Personally - I just want to question why he has those ideals, but more importantly, get rid of what I reckon are just BS phrases invented for the media at the time.

things like

- keep your head still.
- shoudlers to 90 degrees
- left arm straight
- impact position is the moment of truth.
- keep you head down
- 95% of golf is mental game (only if you are a jedi)

All this utter rubbish, needs to be filed in a box somewhere and then burnt. It doesn't help anyone, just fills up the brain that should be reserved for boobs.

:)

henno
25th March 2009, 07:34 AM
It doesn't help anyone, just fills up the brain that should be reserved for boobs.

Be proactive; keep your brain filled with thoughts of boobs and zen-golf jargon never stands a chance.

sms316
25th March 2009, 07:34 AM
It is one thing to be filling your head up with all of this techical stuff on the range, where you are working on something.

On the golf course however, one swing thought should be the maximum.

Toolish
25th March 2009, 07:38 AM
Just remember the ball starts along the direction of the path of the swing.... :)

Hence why I don't get lessons at the local range.

Scottt
25th March 2009, 07:41 AM
Don't be like that mate. Not needed, he is a new member and we don't need to piss any one off.



Truly, I just love watching videos of good swings. I have worn out that video of David Toms you posted a while back.

Videos of boobs are nice too, though.

razaar
25th March 2009, 07:49 AM
Not a bad idea to play the shot mentally a few times before you address the ball, then you can think about boobs if you wish during the shot. Hmmm.......happy thoughts for swingers:lol:

sms316
25th March 2009, 07:53 AM
Not a bad idea to play the shot mentally a few times before you address the ball, then you can think about boobs if you wish during the shot. Hmmm.......happy thoughts for swingers:lol:
A dangerous practice at your age Razaar. Hope Keperra carry a defribulator.

3oneday
25th March 2009, 08:03 AM
I think about my swing plane ALL the time.



No seriously.



I hate with a passion the fact that I come so far from the inside, sometimes my divot points 30 yards to the right of target with a wedge !

I have tried manipulating my swing, taking it away on the inside with the theory that I can't possibly drop it inside from there. It worked for about 6 weeks too, but I was still only just breaking 80 and the effort to maintain the swing was making me think of nothing else on the course.

Then, I started taking it away on the outside and trying to hit fades, I've even cut a couple over the past few weeks, but then on Satdy when aiming at the left side of the green I turned 3 or 4 over, you can imagine where they ended up !

Anyway, with 6 holes to play I decided to start aiming right side whilst still taking it away outside, and aim to hit my natural draw. Effectively take it to the top on the outside and then stop thinking ! I hit the last 6 greens in reg and felt in total control.

I think there are "feel" players and there are technical players, some only get confused by swing thoughts and some thrive on them. A lot of us are probably guilty of still practising when we are on the course, rather than playing.

Anyway, I'll return to one line answers now ;)

Dotty
25th March 2009, 08:04 AM
I thought GMB sounded familiar ...

Gary Potter: You gotta rise above it, you gotta harvest the good energy and block out the bad. Harvest energy, block bad. Feel the flow, feel it, it's circular. Its like a carousel. You pay the quarter, you get on the horse, and you go up and down and around...in a circular circle with the music, the flow, all good things.

ps. Thanks Razaar for the initial posts about 30cm contact area. (Just have to modify it to swing inside one nipple and outside the other, and I'll remember it.)

zigwah
25th March 2009, 05:49 PM
I myself like the technical stuff to practice and try and get the changes into muscle memory and ingrained, but when i get on course i mostly don't think about anything other the shot i'm about to play length, wind and stuff like that. Theres not much else i can do on course, except to swing like i have in practice without hopefully thinking about it.

markTHEblake
25th March 2009, 08:39 PM
Then, I started taking it away on the outside and trying to hit fades, I've even cut a couple over the past few weeks, but then on Satdy when aiming at the left side of the green I turned 3 or 4 over, you can imagine where they ended up !

Bad plan - go find some of the photo sequences of G69 on here, he is doing the same thing and he now looks like a frog in a blender - seriously. You dont wanna end up like that. When I first met him about 10 years ago, his swing looked good - a little out to in to out (figure 8 )and hit nice big draws. Such a shame to see him go downhill like that.

I get the impression that you an I have much in common. Cant get to 3, hit flip draws, out to in swing, bad shot is a huge block, and exceptionally charming. I have started experimenting with this one plane swing stuff, and its really interesting. Stuffed if i know if I am doing it right, but the first thing I am working on at top of backswing is;
- getting the right palm facing skyward
- hands behind right shoulder instead of above

First reaction I get at the top of the swing is that this is gunna be hook city, but that doesnt happen. I really am getting the feeling that the swing path at impact has straightened up considerably, and its done amazing things for my confidence on the longer irons particularily.

Might be worth looking at this One plane swing stuff.

3oneday
25th March 2009, 09:42 PM
Thanks, I'll take a look 8)

virge666
25th March 2009, 10:19 PM
I hate with a passion the fact that I come so far from the inside, sometimes my divot points 30 yards to the right of target with a wedge !


Some days it is just too easy. 3, sit down let me fix it for you. :)

I want you to think about every swing sequence you have ever seen that has a loop in it. From Furyk to Pamps from Old Tiger to new Goosen. With the exception of Raymond Floyd. Go back and look at them... or look at them on the web.

Here is the secret.

In 99% of swings if you take it back inside - you will bring it down on the outside and vice versa.

You think of every old chopper you have ever seen, every junior, every dodgy swing. If they take it back on the inside - they will come back on the outside. Check out Ziggy swing, check out my swing, check out Jono, check out Eags. Check out Haysey. They ALL do the same thing.

They all loop either direction. EVERY ONE of them. It is almost impossible to swing back on teh inside and then back down on the inside. So trying to swing up on the outside will just make the problem worse.

You want to fix your huge 30 degree divots. Go to the range and swing to the inside and then to the outside. Use your shoulders. Try to hit pull cuts. IE: The ball starts to the left of your target and then cuts to the right.

It will take you an hour or so - hit 8i about 100m. You will shank and blade the first 20 or so until you start to get your shoulders moving properly. But that is ALL you have to do. PULL CUTS, OVER TOP PULL CUTS till you get back on plane. Just keep looking at your divot until it is straight or 5 degrees or so to the left. Once the divot is straight - welcome to being on plane.

One simple drill will fix it. No technical stuff, no jargon - just one simple boring drill. Go to the range and learn how to cast.

Next problem.

markTHEblake
25th March 2009, 10:30 PM
Go to the range and swing to the inside and then to the outside. Use your shoulders. Try to hit pull cuts. IE: The ball starts to the left of your target and then cuts to the right.

My pro mate tried to teach me how to hit fades, but all i could do was blocks. he puts my golf bag about 5ft in front of me on my line and says "for petes sake, concentrate and hit around it", and he showed me, a perfect fade around the bag, missing it easily.

I hit around it alright, but on the other side.:oops:

but yeah, i still think its a good tip for this drill.

3oneday
26th March 2009, 07:12 AM
I have tried manipulating my swing, taking it away on the inside with the theory that I can't possibly drop it inside from there. It worked for about 6 weeks too, but I was still only just breaking 80 and the effort to maintain the swing was making me think of nothing else on the course.




In 99% of swings if you take it back inside - you will bring it down on the outside and vice versa.
So I should have persisted with what I was doing ?


You think of every old chopper you have ever seen, every junior, every dodgy swing, check out Jono
you're confused, that was his putting stroke.

:lol:

virge666
26th March 2009, 07:14 AM
and he showed me, a perfect fade around the bag, missing it easily.

but yeah, i still think its a good tip for this drill.

Yeah - my USA coach said - "Just keep putting shit in the way" to try and teach the hands what to do.

The main lesson from the above is that if you want teach yourself to come down on the outside - the last thing you should do is take it back on the outside.

if you want inside - take it back outside and loop it inside
if you want outside - take it back inside and loop it outside

It works an absolute treat and is piss easy.

virge666
26th March 2009, 07:17 AM
So I should have persisted with what I was doing ?


Yep - But consciously loop it to the outside. Get that right shoulder over the top and finish with your right shoulder over your left foot.

Loop the crap out it.

It will feel like a huge cut - but the ball with go straight. It is just witchcraft.

:)

3oneday
26th March 2009, 07:19 AM
How far inside should I take it, when I was practising I would try to get my right knuckle to brush my right leg on the way back... too far ?

virge666
26th March 2009, 07:38 AM
How far inside should I take it, when I was practising I would try to get my right knuckle to brush my right leg on the way back... too far ?


How far inside is not the question...

It is more about the loop. and getting that right shoulder over the left foot.

You will find as you do it more - you will start to take it up the correct plane. You body and hands will correct themselves. Something to do with hand eye co-ordination and perspective.

As mentioned - it is very cool, almost eerie.

haysey
26th March 2009, 07:53 AM
It works an absolute treat and is piss easy.


:smt023



Hardest part is getting over the fact it just feels so wrong.....



But it works:mrgreen:

kwantfm
26th March 2009, 08:08 AM
How far inside is not the question...

It is more about the loop. and getting that right shoulder over the left foot.

You will find as you do it more - you will start to take it up the correct plane. You body and hands will correct themselves. Something to do with hand eye co-ordination and perspective.

As mentioned - it is very cool, almost eerie.

One problem is that 3's backswing is damn near perfect as it is. 3 have you posted your swing yet? If not I can.

virge666
26th March 2009, 08:11 AM
One problem is that 3's backswing is damn near perfect as it is. 3 have you posted your swing yet? If not I can.


:)

You don't hit the ball with the backswing.

3oneday
26th March 2009, 08:17 AM
It's probably changed 75 times since then T :lol:

kwantfm
26th March 2009, 08:17 AM
:)

You don't hit the ball with the backswing.

True (is that a quotation from Yogi Berra?). It is a thing of beauty though (and there ain't much beautiful about 3!).

kwantfm
26th March 2009, 08:52 AM
3... may I post your swing?

3oneday
26th March 2009, 08:59 AM
I don't mind, I lost that swing, or the clip, or both :lol:

Jono
26th March 2009, 09:38 AM
In 99% of swings if you take it back inside - you will bring it down on the outside and vice versa.


I used similar principle to change my backswing. I used to push the ball with and inside out swing. Great if I managed to draw it back. Not always the case though.

Then I started looking at pros who hand a bit of inside to outside loop. Sam snead is an obvious one. Moe norman is another. So I started taking it inside on the backswing then aggressively rotating through impact. Seemed to solve my pushes.

However, as you saw in my swing clip, I began taking it way too much inside. This caused some problems with consistency.

Jono
26th March 2009, 09:39 AM
I don't mind, I lost that swing, or the clip, or both :lol:

You sure? What FEELS different often looks the same.

3oneday
26th March 2009, 10:12 AM
I started to struggle with keeping the left arm straight, too much post round pain.

Probably an age and kids thing :lol:

virge666
26th March 2009, 10:21 AM
I started to struggle with keeping the left arm straight, too much post round pain.



Not important. Fix important things, not pretend stuff. You will find that these things fix themselves.

Fundamentals mate - always fundamentals.