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View Full Version : kwantfm's swing 2 (one week later)



kwantfm
1st March 2009, 09:43 PM
March 1 swing:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PeZGpl6WMT8

February 22 swing for comparison:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zm18X8eSPjs

Biggest difference I can see is the downswing plane is much shallower in the later swing (see attached jpegs). I still stand up.

T

virge666
2nd March 2009, 08:11 AM
Wow . . . Stewart Cink. nice move through the ball.

A bit more lag wouldn't hurt.

Jono
2nd March 2009, 02:37 PM
Looking good, K. 8)

3oneday
2nd March 2009, 03:28 PM
Be even better on the golf course ;)

kwantfm
2nd March 2009, 03:47 PM
When hell freezes over

razaar
2nd March 2009, 04:20 PM
Mate

Looking at the stills, your body is practically facing the ball while your hands are at waist height; your back should be 3/4 still turned to the target. Your hands started out under your shoulders, look where they are in the frame. Your hands are also on a plane, and should approach their address position from inside not outside with the clubhead lagging behind. There is no shortcut back to the ball; the cluhead still has to go the full way around which is down and then out as the wrists unhinge. The club head's apprach should be from the inside (to be on plane) on a shallow path (almost horizontal) which directs the force forwards not downwards. If the shoulders open too early the clubhead and hands are outside the plane and contact is made towards the outside of the ball.

All right handed golfers are fighting a right shoulder that wants to get into the act too soon. Unfortunately the right shoulder is in the strongest position at the top of the swing and has the least distance to travel to get back to the address position. Here are a few thoughts for the transition to through swing which may help.

Swing the arms down and away from the right shoulder (right shoulder stays still).

Move on to the front foot and pull down with the arms (in unison), keeping the back to the target or chest away from target.

Tilt the left shoulder upwards away from face to start the downswing. A tilt delays the shoulders from opening.

Keep the back to the target and swing under the left shoulder.

Which ever method gets your fancy, be sure to hit through the ball from 7.00 to 1.00 o'clock.

The only difference I can see in the videos is you have a straight left wrist in the first and an open left wrist (flexed) position in the second.

kwantfm
3rd March 2009, 09:22 PM
Next phase...

razaar, see any differences?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=00mBwU9hAn8

Push seems to be the big miss with this version!

virge666
3rd March 2009, 09:30 PM
Like to see it front on...

kwantfm
3rd March 2009, 09:34 PM
Like to see it front on...

Difficult to do at SOP driving range due to the dividers between mats. I only really get to go to the range late at night (after kids are asleep) so SOP tends to be the only option.

What would you be looking for from the front on view?

What do you think of the changes thus far from the down the line view?

virge666
3rd March 2009, 09:51 PM
What would you be looking for from the front on view?

What do you think of the changes thus far from the down the line view?

Just find a free bay in front of you and get a few swings. i will be looking at hip levels and the direction of your turn on the backswing.

You look pretty good from behind - but you down swing looks a little forced and low. I also want to see you hands at impact.

razaar
4th March 2009, 08:04 AM
Next phase...

razaar, see any differences?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=00mBwU9hAn8

Push seems to be the big miss with this version!

Only because you aren't squaring up the clubface through the ball. Think of getting the left hand facing skywards at shoulder height of the follow through. The position that Jim Hardy is in is what you should be aiming at.
It will take time. Your transition looks better; it would help if your arm back swing was shorter and more under your control. As it is it controls you.

http://www.planetruthforgolfers.com/

kwantfm
4th March 2009, 08:44 AM
As it is it controls you.

If only it were just my backswing...

razaar
4th March 2009, 08:59 AM
If only it were just my backswing...

Isee :lol:.

Work backwards from that throughswing position to your address position and feel what your arms have to do in reverse to get there. I am a fan of feeling your hitting position at address before you take the club back. That way you are always looking through the windscreen and not the rear window.

kwantfm
4th March 2009, 07:50 PM
One more sequence I should add:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSnhCNF5_2Y

Here I was trying not to take the club so far to the inside on the backswing.

virge666
4th March 2009, 08:20 PM
Looking at the stills, your body is practically facing the ball while your hands are at waist height; your back should be 3/4 still turned to the target. Your hands started out under your shoulders, look where they are in the frame. .

What if he is releasing with the upper body instead of the hands rotating ?

What if releases his hands under and not over . . . more Darren Clarke instead of David Toms...

I reckon it looks OK. but I am sure there is a nice little slide back on the backswing. and a bit of a reverse pivot becasue of the way his head has to look back at the ball.

kwantfm
4th March 2009, 08:23 PM
but I am sure there is a nice little slide back on the backswing. and a bit of a reverse pivot becasue of the way his head has to look back at the ball.

I'll try to get a front view sometime this week.

razaar
4th March 2009, 08:45 PM
Looking at the video I get the feeling that your left knee and left shoulder move back together. This doesn't give you a firm base to coil against and leaves you open to compromising your spine and hip angles that have been set up at address. The ideal is for the turn to be in a tightly wound position where there is resistance in the body right the way from the left foot upwards. IMO there has to be a diagonal push down and out in the left foot (ball of the foot pushed into the ground, even if the left heel doesn't lift) at the top of the backswing with the body coiled over or behind the ball. The left leg resists all through the backswing setting up the coil. Your swing to me is inefficient because it is too loose with too many potential power leaks. Does this make any sense to you? Look at Pamps swing or the right sided swing that Virge has posted to see a coiled swing. Don't expect to be comfortable in learning a coiled swing, it can be hard work but rewarding once it becomes habit.

kwantfm
5th March 2009, 09:12 AM
Thanks for all the comments thus far in this thread... I'm really finding all of them very helpful.

kwantfm
5th March 2009, 06:44 PM
Only because you aren't squaring up the clubface through the ball. Think of getting the left hand facing skywards at shoulder height of the follow through. The position that Jim Hardy is in is what you should be aiming at.
It will take time. Your transition looks better; it would help if your arm back swing was shorter and more under your control. As it is it controls you.

http://www.planetruthforgolfers.com/

I've been thinking about this position for a while and it involves a lot more forearm rotation than I currently use (I don't rotate much at all). Is forearm rotation different from the dreaded flip? Doesn't forearm rotation require good timing to use?

razaar
5th March 2009, 07:39 PM
The flip you refer to are the wrists breaking down just before or at contact. The right wrist straightens and the left flexes. The correct method is for the right wrist to have some flex to keep the clubface square to the target; the right hand grip should have the palm square to the clubface at address. With this grip the clubface points whereever the right palm points, so the right hand controls the club face. Another reason for the name 'right sided swing'. Most pros draw the ball by wiping the clubface from inside to out across the ball. The clubface is held square to the target with firm wrists and it is the inside to out path that puts right to left spin on the ball. The ball should start out slightly right of target and draw back in with about one to two metres of draw. This shot is referred to as a straight draw and is the safe way of drawing the ball. The other way is to rotate the forearms throught the ball thereby closing the face. The timing has to be exact with this method because he face is closing quite rapidly and can easily turn into a real hook. Practice the straight draw method would be my advice.

kwantfm
6th March 2009, 09:14 PM
Front view as requested...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-kK9SklkagU

kwantfm
6th March 2009, 09:26 PM
I've got some comparison stills from before (22nd Feb) and after (6th March).

kwantfm
6th March 2009, 09:27 PM
Second set.

kwantfm
6th March 2009, 09:31 PM
My impression is that things are taking a turn for the better. Holding the recoil of the shoulders until later gives me the feeling of having lots more room in the downswing. For the first time in memory I was able to swing as hard as I wanted this evening at the range without fearing I would lose the ball way right (what a great feeling!). Thanks to all who have contributed to this thread. It's made a big difference.

kwantfm
7th March 2009, 06:50 AM
Virge? Would you mind commenting on the front view vid?

Thanks,
T

virge666
7th March 2009, 09:06 AM
Virge? Would you mind commenting on the front view vid?

Thanks,
T


Love to.

There is nothing much I woudl change with that over a forum.The backswing is good, you look good at the top, and you a smooth through the ball.

There are a few extra movements you could get rid of . . . You could get a bit more distance by being a bit more agressive with the hips on the downswing as long as you kept level.

but other than that - looks damn fine. Take it to the course . . .

kwantfm
7th March 2009, 11:39 AM
Cheers and thanks for the feedback throughout...

3oneday
8th March 2009, 05:45 AM
Take it to the course . . .
a golf course ?

Goodness, now there's a thought !


:lol:

kwantfm
8th March 2009, 06:36 AM
a golf course ?

Goodness, now there's a thought !


:lol:

What's a golf course?

Jono
12th March 2009, 11:42 PM
Virge? Would you mind commenting on the front view vid?

Thanks,
T

I'm not Virge, but I'll say my 2 cents worth.

Due to the dim lights, the camera is operating at low shutter speed, but even then you can tell that you are casting.

http://img301.imageshack.us/img301/5615/tcast.jpg

You CAN play good golf whilst casting ... I've seen scratch marker amateurs who cast. But no pros cast. If you are striving to be a good consistent ball striker, you need to hold the angle more. It doesn't matter how you get it done.

When I made swing sequences of Ozgolfers few years ago at Bayview, nearly everyone released too early. Only a couple of golfers including Speirsy held the angle.

razaar
13th March 2009, 07:37 AM
Jono , the following is an extract from a book by Pete Draovitch (G.Norman's physical fitness instructor/advisor in the 90s) on this same issue. It may help to clear up some misconceptions about the release.
"Until now, we have not had the technology to measure and analyze the club release or wrist uncocking or club lag objectively, causing the evolution of many erronous explanations of the visual perception of what actually occurs. Two common misconceptions are the benefits of holding the club in a cocked position until impact, or forcing the release by throwing the club from the top.
Holding the cocked position interfers with the the action of the arms accelerating around the axis of the trunk and reduces club head speed. In reality, the action of the arms accelarating around the axis of the trunk is what creates the the cocked angle and maintains that angle during the downswing. When the arms begin to to decelerate, the club angle should increase into impact as the club accelerates. Tension in the muscles of the wrists and arms caused by trying to hold the cocked angle typically results in the disruption of the natural energy flow. This disruption creates a premature deceleration in the arms and consequently a premature release of the club angle, as well as increased stress in the upper body and arms. Be sure to avoid this mistake."

The old advice to keep the arms and shoulders as soft as possible seems to be the way to go.

3oneday
13th March 2009, 07:38 AM
**** me :shock:

kwantfm
13th March 2009, 09:32 AM
I'm not Virge, but I'll say my 2 cents worth.

Due to the dim lights, the camera is operating at low shutter speed, but even then you can tell that you are casting.

You CAN play good golf whilst casting ... I've seen scratch marker amateurs who cast. But no pros cast. If you are striving to be a good consistent ball striker, you need to hold the angle more. It doesn't matter how you get it done.

When I made swing sequences of Ozgolfers few years ago at Bayview, nearly everyone released too early. Only a couple of golfers including Speirsy held the angle.

Thanks Jono. I have been working on holding the angle more. In the early stages it is actually leading to significantly less consistency. In particular it makes me more prone to the shanks. I'm aiming for a flat left wrist at impact and this may be something where slowly slowly will get me there eventually.

virge666
13th March 2009, 10:49 AM
What Raz is saying there is that Kwant doesn't look like he is casting. Kwant lower half is in good sync with with upper half.

And . . . that trying to hold more angle in the arms actually delays the release of the golf club, which slows you down.

Modern swing vs Old swing kind of stuff.

If I was going to get more technical of Kwant, I would say that he is a little stuck on the down swing and still a little flippy though impact. And to fix that I would get him to release earlier and earlier.

Have a look at Tiger this weekend on TV. Have a look at his practice swing. You will see him NOT hold any angle on his practice swing. he swings down to about 7 o'clock and then rotates the body around with the club in front of him.

Modern vs Old.

kwantfm
13th March 2009, 11:07 AM
If I was going to get more technical of Kwant, I would say that he is a little stuck on the down swing and still a little flippy though impact. And to fix that I would get him to release earlier and earlier.

What's the difference here between flippy and earlier release? How should I feel an earlier release?

virge666
13th March 2009, 11:10 AM
What's the difference here between flippy and earlier release? How should I feel an earlier release?


Easy -

Flippy - Left wrist bends.
Release - Left wrist rotates.

Always error on the earlier release. There was this bloke last year who almost won a "US Open" doing it... :)

3oneday
13th March 2009, 12:28 PM
This swung yet ?

kwantfm
13th March 2009, 01:17 PM
What's replacing this?

virge666
13th March 2009, 02:00 PM
I like boobs.

kwantfm
13th March 2009, 02:01 PM
I like boobs.

Your avatar told us already...

Jono
13th March 2009, 03:59 PM
What Raz is saying there is that Kwant doesn't look like he is casting. Kwant lower half is in good sync with with upper half.

And . . . that trying to hold more angle in the arms actually delays the release of the golf club, which slows you down.

Modern swing vs Old swing kind of stuff.

If I was going to get more technical of Kwant, I would say that he is a little stuck on the down swing and still a little flippy though impact. And to fix that I would get him to release earlier and earlier.

Have a look at Tiger this weekend on TV. Have a look at his practice swing. You will see him NOT hold any angle on his practice swing. he swings down to about 7 o'clock and then rotates the body around with the club in front of him.

Modern vs Old.

Virge, leave the cause and effect problem to the scientists. Do not assume what the cause and effects are.

T is casting (or releasing early) or whatever. I'm not into semantics. The angle between the left arm lever and the club lever straightens out too early.

Majority of weekend golfers cast. Many single markers cast. I tend to cast.

It doesn't matter how you get there, just do it. 8)

razaar
13th March 2009, 04:02 PM
Actually Raz wasn't saying anything about the swing...just provided an expert's (qualified physical therapist) opinion on physically trying to hold a cocked wrist in the downswing. His words not mine. Don't know of a pro who plays with tight arms, tight muscles are slow muscles and arm speed is all important. T's swing looks good to me, I guess the ball is the best judge.

Jono
13th March 2009, 04:19 PM
Easy -

Flippy - Left wrist bends.
Release - Left wrist rotates.


You need both in a good swing.

virge666
13th March 2009, 04:27 PM
You need both in a good swing.


Really ?

Why ?

Jono
13th March 2009, 04:30 PM
Really ?

Why ?

Why not?

virge666
13th March 2009, 07:04 PM
Why not?


Come on - you can do better than that.

3oneday
13th March 2009, 08:08 PM
Ahhh, life is back to normal again. Jono is back with 2 word answers, Virge is replying one sentence at a time...




Hang on :confused:

Jono
13th March 2009, 09:25 PM
Come on - you can do better than that.

So how do you "release" the club? By "release", what is your perception of how things happen through impact?

Jono
13th March 2009, 09:26 PM
Ahhh, life is back to normal again. Jono is back with 2 word answers, Virge is replying one sentence at a time...




Hang on :confused:

What are you doing on a swing forum? :roll:

Jarro
13th March 2009, 09:27 PM
Welcome back Jono :roll:

Jono
13th March 2009, 09:40 PM
Welcome back Jono :roll:

thanks Jarro. Have you had your Edwin lesson yet? :razz:

Jarro
13th March 2009, 09:43 PM
thanks Jarro. Have you had your Edwin lesson yet? :razz:

Why would you be wanting to know that Jono ?

;)

Jono
13th March 2009, 09:51 PM
Why would you be wanting to know that Jono ?

;)

You still casting then? :wink:

Jarro
13th March 2009, 09:52 PM
You still casting then? :wink:

.. amongst other things :(

3oneday
14th March 2009, 04:59 AM
What are you doing on a swing forum? :roll:
looking for chicks ;)

razaar
14th March 2009, 05:30 AM
Arched wrist?

virge666
14th March 2009, 05:10 PM
So how do you "release" the club? By "release", what is your perception of how things happen through impact?


which one... but basic is uncock left wrist and roll . . .

Jono
14th March 2009, 06:41 PM
which one... but basic is uncock left wrist and roll . . .

So you uncock left wrist BEFORE you roll?

virge666
14th March 2009, 08:26 PM
So you uncock left wrist BEFORE you roll?

I start uncocking the left wrist first.

zigwah
15th March 2009, 02:04 AM
Can i just make one small suggestion?

It's that when guys ask for advice on their swings could the posters before they try and get people to change stuff, could they at least specify that they are changing your swing to bits of so and so swing method?

Thoughts?

virge666
15th March 2009, 02:07 PM
Can i just make one small suggestion?

It's that when guys ask for advice on their swings could the posters before they try and get people to change stuff, could they at least specify that they are changing your swing to bits of so and so swing method?

Thoughts?

Always do.

kwantfm
25th April 2009, 08:55 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JoVea9xsibk

Latest version... 25th April 2009.

razaar
26th April 2009, 08:27 AM
A suggestion...

body turn - get the feeling that the weight on your feet moves in a half circle; back on the right heel and ball of the left foot, and then on to the left heel and right instep /toe. With long flowing swings, the lower body has to coil in a circular movement not laterally, this is if you want power & consistancy.

arm swing - rotate the left forearm in the backswing until the right elbow points to the ground and stop there. The feeling in the forward swing is that you hook the ball but it goes straight. Swing slightly inside to out keeping the arms and elbows close together.

You can play with your present swing, but IMO it has a few power leaks.:)

kwantfm
26th April 2009, 01:52 PM
A suggestion...

body turn - get the feeling that the weight on your feet moves in a half circle; back on the right heel and ball of the left foot, and then on to the left heel and right instep /toe. With long flowing swings, the lower body has to coil in a circular movement not laterally, this is if you want power & consistancy.

arm swing - rotate the left forearm in the backswing until the right elbow points to the ground and stop there. The feeling in the forward swing is that you hook the ball but it goes straight. Swing slightly inside to out keeping the arms and elbows close together.

You can play with your present swing, but IMO it has a few power leaks.:)

razaar,

Thanks for the comments.

WRT to your suggestions on body turn, that feeling is exactly what I have in mind. It looks as if I am not translating that feeling into actuality. Any other feel suggestions for the rotary coil?

Arm swing - I have tried to practise swinging with more left forearm rotation... but consistently SH*NK which is something that I am not used to and I find quite soul destroying. I want more forearm rotation because I'm sure it will set me up on a better plane and produce a more efficient release. But I have some big problems getting to an appropriate impact position. Any thoughts?

P.S. I've sent an email to Kari Lajosi... his work looks great. I'm investigating a JAT style or Bettinardi Tour Blade Proto style putter...

Thanks,
T

razaar
26th April 2009, 03:01 PM
T...keeping centred also means keeping the chin level and the same distance from the ball position; shanking is usually caused by the centre moving forward towards the target line. If you focus on swinging the clubhead and not the shaft there shouldn't be an issue with forearm rotation, if you have a two knuckle grip (the club face is your right hand, where your right hand points so should the clubface). Anymore than three knuckles visible on the lefthand at address, has the left forearm rotated prematurely before you start, creating the potential to hook if the arms stay together through and past impact. Keeping the arms and elbows together through impact and beyond will rotate the forearms back to the address position without any other conscious thought.

Impact position...is a result of a good grip, staying on plane and keeping centre and free flow of the swing. If we start thinking about impact positions we can distrupt the free flow.

virge666
27th April 2009, 09:29 PM
I am with Razaar,

Way too much hip "up and down" action going ont here for mine. I wanna see COIL. I want to see power being stored up in the arms and shoulders.

in fact - that shot looked "fat" and "slappy"

Jono
28th April 2009, 12:57 AM
How does the song go?

You change your swing like a girl changes clothes ...


:p

kwantfm
28th April 2009, 11:17 AM
I am with Razaar,

Way too much hip "up and down" action going ont here for mine. I wanna see COIL. I want to see power being stored up in the arms and shoulders.

in fact - that shot looked "fat" and "slappy"

Ouch... but Virge always says it how he sees it. Next thing I'm thinking of is a flatter arm swing plane. Less up and down, flatter shaft plane and a natural backstop to the top of my (overly long) backswing... i.e. my right shoulder. I reckon this should produce the COIL that is being asked for. Thoughts?

kwantfm
28th April 2009, 11:18 AM
You change your swing like a girl changes clothes ...


:p

Double ouch!

Jarro
28th April 2009, 11:18 AM
Don't change a thing T, just get out and play more !!

razaar
28th April 2009, 11:49 AM
Ouch... but Virge always says it how he sees it. Next thing I'm thinking of is a flatter arm swing plane. Less up and down, flatter shaft plane and a natural backstop to the top of my (overly long) backswing... i.e. my right shoulder. I reckon this should produce the COIL that is being asked for. Thoughts?

turn away from the target without disturbing the hip angle set at address
let the turning torso pull the left hip and left leg around against the resistance of both knees this stretches the left back muscles and establishes the connection between the hips and shoulders
slight pause at the top (or set)
lower body kicks off the downswing with the right elbow moving towards your belly button (this move requires flexible rotator cuffs). A right elbow pointing at the ground at the top of the backswing makes this move easier.
shoulders stay directly over the hips and viceversa
tempo blends it all together.
http://www.pgatour.com/swingplex/01/25/10/index.html

virge666
28th April 2009, 05:12 PM
Everything Razaar said.

Jono
28th April 2009, 06:08 PM
Everything Jarro said.

virge666
28th April 2009, 06:30 PM
Everything Jono said.

razaar
28th April 2009, 06:36 PM
Everything Virge said.

Jarro
28th April 2009, 06:46 PM
Everything jarro said.

henno
28th April 2009, 06:49 PM
Everything Chewbacca said.

Jono
28th April 2009, 07:16 PM
http://www.pgatour.com/swingplex/01/25/10/index.html

Love Chad's swing. 8)

What do you think about his bent left arm at impact? Few pros seem to do this. Goosen and Westwood are couple of examples.

razaar
28th April 2009, 08:11 PM
Love Chad's swing. 8)

What do you think about his bent left arm at impact? Few pros seem to do this. Goosen and Westwood are couple of examples.
Great pick up Jono. If you look at the back view of Campbell's swing it is noticeable that his elbow is pointing towards the rear. This means that his elbows have separated from their address position probably because his rotator cuff muscles don't give his elbow the freedom to point downwards. He tends to have a slouching posture which can tighten the shoulders. At impact he needs to make an adjustment to compensate for the separation - he can't do it my driving his right elbow forward because his rotator cuff doesn't have the flexibility; so the left arm gives and he has to get his left hip high to make room for the left arm which has less space to occupy than the right did on the backswing (because the right hand is under the left). Notice how his elbows also separate past the ball position. Goosen is the same. Not wrong, just complicated.