Formula 1 2016

[coalesce]

I saw it on BBC sport and a couple of other places this morning as one of the options Mercedes are looking at. Surely not though. Do they not remember what happened the last time those two were on the same team...

That was more about Ron Dennis and What he promised Alonso rather than Hamilton/Alonso not getting on. I think it would be similar to the Rosberg/Hamilton relationship, although if Alonso hasn't lost it, there might be more days Hamilton is genuinely beaten for race pace than there was this year

I still think it will be someone junior pending someone like Alonso being out of contract for the following year if the junior doesn't work out

[Jazz18]

That was more about Ron Dennis and What he promised Alonso rather than Hamilton/Alonso not getting on. I think it would be similar to the Rosberg/Hamilton relationship, although if Alonso hasn't lost it, there might be more days Hamilton is genuinely beaten for race pace than there was this year

I still think it will be someone junior pending someone like Alonso being out of contract for the following year if the junior doesn't work out

Check the stats for the year. They are closer than you might think. Rosberg only had one less win and won the fastest lap trophy for the year as well as the world championship obviously, so I'm not sure what you mean by more days that Hamilton might get beaten for pace if Alonso was around in a Merc. He was genuinely beaten for pace plenty of times this year by Rosberg.

It would be great to see him beaten for pace even more though

[rubin]

That was more about Ron Dennis and What he promised Alonso rather than Hamilton/Alonso not getting on. I think it would be similar to the Rosberg/Hamilton relationship, although if Alonso hasn't lost it, there might be more days Hamilton is genuinely beaten for race pace than there was this year

I still think it will be someone junior pending someone like Alonso being out of contract for the following year if the junior doesn't work out

Check the stats for the year. They are closer than you might think. Rosberg only had one less win and won the fastest lap trophy for the year as well as the world championship obviously, so I'm not sure what you mean by more days that Hamilton might get beaten for pace if Alonso was around in a Merc. He was genuinely beaten for pace plenty of times this year by Rosberg.

It would be great to see him beaten for pace even more though

Coalesce is correct. The ‘stats’ on places alone don’t show the retirements etc that plagued Hamilton throughout the season, and the penalties that they bought with it. It was widely known throughout the paddock that Hamilton is a faster driver, which goes to show how close he got to the championship win, even with the penalties and issues he had this year.


And the fastest lap award means nothing – anyone can pick up a fastest lap in a race on low fuel (i.e at the end) fresh tyres and clear air for a lap or two.

Finally, I very highly doubt Alonso will have a way out of his McLaren contract, without seriously bulk money coming from Mercedes to do so. Honda entered F1, on the proviso Alonso, Hamilton or Vettel were the lead driver.


For my money, it will be either,

• Wherlein promoted from Marussia.
• Ocon to Mercedes (rather than Force India) and Wherlein to FI
• Or, best case scenario, Bottas to Mercedes (with some big Merc power unit discounts to Williams, and either Ocon or Wherlein as well).

Red Bull won’t release their guys at all, and I doubt Renault will let Hulkenburg get out of his contract. Mclaren are going to be pretty tight, and lets face it, have enough money that people can’t really be bought anyway, and Ferrari are Ferrari. It will be a current Merc driver, from one of the teams.

[rubin]

Top give you a better idea, see the following from www.f1fanatic.co.uk:

Lewis Hamilton had a more successful season than Nico Rosberg by many significant metrics including race wins, podium finishes and pole positions. But the points tally is what counts and there Nico Rosberg pipped him by five, ending Hamilton’s two-year reign as champion.
Note that while technical problems during qualifying for Hamilton have been cited as a significant reason behind why he lost the 2016 championship, they did not stop him out-qualifying Rosberg as many times as he did last year.
Another striking feature of the Mercedes drivers’ seasons is how the balance of power shifted between them. Rosberg began the season and came back from the summer break more strongly then Hamilton, whose defeats to Rosberg during these parts of the season can only partly be blamed on unreliability.

[Jazz18]

I'm not debating that Hamilton is faster. I can't stand the little snot, but he can drive fast. That's always been my point, that's all he's got going for him really. Other than a bucket load of money. Nothing else of substance there.

Coalesce was saying that perhaps Alonso would be faster than Hamilton on a more regular basis than Rosberg had been this year. Ok, fastest laps may not mean much but I was merely pointing out that Rosberg has done a pretty good job of being faster than Hamilton on many occasions this year. Perhaps it's already been forgotten that including the last 3 races last year, Rosberg won 7 in a row and Hamilton was his team mate for each of those races. Seems Rosberg has beaten Hamilton on plenty of regular occasions in the last year or so.

Like I said though, would like to see more of it. I think you could 4 or 5 other drivers in the Merc from the last three years and they would all have won and/or come second in the championship as Hailton and Rosberg did the last three years. Yes Hamilton might be quick but there are others just as quick if not quicker with the same car.

[rubin]

I'm not debating that Hamilton is faster. I can't stand the little snot, but he can drive fast. That's always been my point, that's all he's got going for him really. Other than a bucket load of money. Nothing else of substance there.

Coalesce was saying that perhaps Alonso would be faster than Hamilton on a more regular basis than Rosberg had been this year. Ok, fastest laps may not mean much but I was merely pointing out that Rosberg has done a pretty good job of being faster than Hamilton on many occasions this year. Perhaps it's already been forgotten that including the last 3 races last year, Rosberg won 7 in a row and Hamilton was his team mate for each of those races. Seems Rosberg has beaten Hamilton on plenty of regular occasions in the last year or so.

Like I said though, would like to see more of it. I think you could 4 or 5 other drivers in the Merc from the last three years and they would all have won and/or come second in the championship as Hailton and Rosberg did the last three years. Yes Hamilton might be quick but there are others just as quick if not quicker with the same car.

I agree, and echo Brundle’s comments on Sky:
“Any driver on the current grid, would win with this Mercedes”

Having said that, I would suggest there are only a handful of drivers who could actually and truly match Hamilton over an extended period (keeping in mind Hamilton has outperformed Rosberg every year as a team mate, except for this year, and including junior catagories).

I think Alonso would certainly push Hamilton more than Rosberg did, but I also think Verstappen, Ricciardo, Vettel and probably Raikonnen would do as well. Ocon would in a few years (development stage), and probably the same for Vandoorne.

[coalesce]

Having said that, I would suggest there are only a handful of drivers who could actually and truly match Hamilton over an extended period (keeping in mind Hamilton has outperformed Rosberg every year as a team mate, except for this year, and including junior catagories).

I think Alonso would certainly push Hamilton more than Rosberg did, but I also think Verstappen, Ricciardo, Vettel and probably Raikonnen would do as well. Ocon would in a few years (development stage), and probably the same for Vandoorne.

This is exactly the point I was trying to make. Less sure about Vettel/Raikkonnen. Vettel is a bit like Button in that if the car suits him he is sublime but less so when the car is a dog. Alonso at Ferrari showed that he can wag the dog

[rubin]

I guess im also thinking of how next years cars will perform, with the downforce levels and stuff – also thinking of Alonso in the v10 era, and Vettel with the super downforce of the 10/11/12 Red Bull.

I get the feeling a lot of the new kids/younger guys are going to struggle next year with the physicality of the cars. Without going to full ‘ground effects’ the cars are going to be sucked to the ground, and the cornering speed is expected to be north of 30% faster, and I have read some articles where with the new reg’s, Newey has been able to develop a new way of almost sealing the floor.

[Jazz18]

I agree with Brundle as well. Hard to lose with that car.

I'm looking forward to the new cars next year but I don't keep up with all the technical aspects of the sport in too much detail. I knew they were expecting faster cornering speeds from next years cars but I didn't realise it was that much more.

Maybe with the reg changes, the faster guys now won't be next year. As Dan Ricciardo has already said, it will be totally different physically in the car. Maybe the small guys like Vettel and Hamilton will struggle and larger drivers like Ricciardo, Verstappen and Hulkenburg will dominate. Of course they will need the car underneath them to be great though.

Should be interesting.

[rubin]

From a technical point of view, the last time an F1 car produced enough downforce to drive upside down, was either the 2010 or 2011 Red Bull (I can’t recall which one), which was down about 15 – 20% on downforce of the V10 era cars.

The new reg’s will put downforce back to that of the mid 2000’s, which were almost the peak of downforce regs (without ground effect), and with more efficient, more torque from the power units. Peak power is largely unchanged from 10 – 15 years ago.

Because of the increased torque the power units provide, the cars can achieve higher velocity through corners, as peak torque (effectively power to turn the wheels) comes in so much earlier in the rpm range. Their peak straight line velocity will be lower than recent years (increased downforce will inevitably increase drag, just not to the same extent), but F1 has never been about straight line speed.

The drivers at the end of next year will look physically stronger in the upper body, as they will have to be to cope with the increased G force. Both Ricciardo and Hamilton have been quoted recently as saying they are looking forward to doing some actual weight training, rather than primarily cardio and building some muscle.

I think Verstappen, and possibly Wherlein will struggle next year initially (young guys, immature bodies etc), and guys like ricciardo, sainz, bottas, perez will shine. I also think it will be a good time for the Vandoornes and Stroll’s to come in, as they don’t need to ‘unlearn’ any bad habits picked up from overtorqued/under pressured cars.

[Jazz18]

Sounds like you've got a handle on the technical side of things. The cars and regs are so complex. What is a good source of information to learn more about the technical side of things? I'm not a mechanic or a mechanical engineer but do know a bit about cars so it doesn't have to be too basic for me to follow.

Should be good. Hopefully they have fixed the sound issue as well. The lack of noise has been a big loss in the enjoyment of F1 for me and I'm sure many others.

[rubin]

Sounds like you've got a handle on the technical side of things. The cars and regs are so complex. What is a good source of information to learn more about the technical side of things? I'm not a mechanic or a mechanical engineer but do know a bit about cars so it doesn't have to be too basic for me to follow.

Should be good. Hopefully they have fixed the sound issue as well. The lack of noise has been a big loss in the enjoyment of F1 for me and I'm sure many others.

I have to admit, I do have a head start – I spent the first 18 months at uni doing aerodynamic engineering before realising the job prospects where pretty slim. I still read up on it, and try to remain as current as possible on it all, and fully ‘nerd out’ on the technical side of F1. I also grew up in a family full of mechanics and mechanical engineers etc, so I picked up a bit from that.

As far as trying to pick up on the more tech aspects, racecar engineering does a pretty good job of putting it into laymans terms http://www.racecar-engineering.com/formulaone/ and go into some decent details on the power units, energy recovery and the like. Worth having a look at when you get a spare 15/20 minutes (the articles are pretty in depth).

[Jazz18]

I have to admit, I do have a head start – I spent the first 18 months at uni doing aerodynamic engineering before realising the job prospects where pretty slim. I still read up on it, and try to remain as current as possible on it all, and fully ‘nerd out’ on the technical side of F1. I also grew up in a family full of mechanics and mechanical engineers etc, so I picked up a bit from that.

As far as trying to pick up on the more tech aspects, racecar engineering does a pretty good job of putting it into laymans terms http://www.racecar-engineering.com/formulaone/ and go into some decent details on the power units, energy recovery and the like. Worth having a look at when you get a spare 15/20 minutes (the articles are pretty in depth).

I thought it sounded like you had some extra knowledge there. Thanks for the link. I'll check it out.

[rubin]

News overnight that Williams are set to release Bottas to Mercedes for a considerable discount on the engine supply (quotes coming out almost 70% disc.), and Wherlein to replace Bottas (Mercedes will continue to pay Wherlein).

Williams have a small issue with two very young drivers, and a major Alcohol marque as title sponsor. Neither driver is of legal drinking age in the US (a key Martini market), And they are quite wary of having two young, inexperienced drivers in a car where their points haul in the Constructors championship can mean life or death to the team

[Jazz18]

News overnight that Williams are set to release Bottas to Mercedes for a considerable discount on the engine supply (quotes coming out almost 70% disc.), and Wherlein to replace Bottas (Mercedes will continue to pay Wherlein).

Williams have a small issue with two very young drivers, and a major Alcohol marque as title sponsor. Neither driver is of legal drinking age in the US (a key Martini market), And they are quite wary of having two young, inexperienced drivers in a car where their points haul in the Constructors championship can mean life or death to the team

Thanks for the news rubin. Even though Wehrlein has only been with Manor in F1, he seems to have shown he has some speed. I didn't understand why Ocon got the Force India drive over Wehrlein as it always seemed as though Wehrlein was faster than Ocon.

Will be interesting to see how the young guns go at Williams. I'm pretty sure they wouldn't be worried about a young Verstappen in the car, so as long as their 2 youngsters can deliver points, I can't see them having an issue with sponsors because of their age.

Not sure if I'm right in saying either but I wouldn't have thought they'd want Bottas in the Merc. He hasn't seemed that fast of late. Might just be the Williams hasn't been fast enough but Bottas didn't seem to feature much this year like he did a little last year.

[rubin]

Thanks for the news rubin. Even though Wehrlein has only been with Manor in F1, he seems to have shown he has some speed. I didn't understand why Ocon got the Force India drive over Wehrlein as it always seemed as though Wehrlein was faster than Ocon.

Will be interesting to see how the young guns go at Williams. I'm pretty sure they wouldn't be worried about a young Verstappen in the car, so as long as their 2 youngsters can deliver points, I can't see them having an issue with sponsors because of their age.

Not sure if I'm right in saying either but I wouldn't have thought they'd want Bottas in the Merc. He hasn't seemed that fast of late. Might just be the Williams hasn't been fast enough but Bottas didn't seem to feature much this year like he did a little last year.

I agree that Bottas hasn't appeared as quick - but the only true guide is his teammate (Massa) and he absolutely belted him all season. I think it was more car than Driver personally.

[TourFit]

Agreed. I think Bottas has been quick for most of his career, and he gave Massa a lesson this year (and no doubt helped hasten his retirement).

I bet Hulkenberg is kicking himself!!! He would have been the perfect fit for Merc, and it is the "big" team drive that he perhaps should've had years ago. I'm hoping that the move he made isn't a step backwards for him, as I really rate him and have done for a long time.

[rubin]

disagree.

Hulkenburg is very good, but the reason he hasn't been in a front running team yet is simple - he's too big.

[coalesce]

Size may be less of an issue next year tho - the cars will be much more physically demanding on the drivers, which may disadvantage the smaller/younger guys

[TourFit]

Size may be less of an issue next year tho - the cars will be much more physically demanding on the drivers, which may disadvantage the smaller/younger guys

Definately so. That's partly what I was alluding to about Hulkenberg.

[rubin]

There will still be a weight limit, and unfortunately for the taller guys (like Hulkenburg) size will always be an issue.

Its not the actual weight of the car, it’s the ability to use the ballast to adapt the handling and performance of the car itself. Weight too far forward will create a very pointy car at the detriment to low speed traction. Weight to rearward will create understeer.

As an example – in Monaco, 2/3 of the ballast available in the red bull is in front of the drivers footline, whereas Monza (the opposite type of track) the ballast is almost over the rear driveline.

[Jazz18]

I agree that Bottas hasn't appeared as quick - but the only true guide is his teammate (Massa) and he absolutely belted him all season. I think it was more car than Driver personally.

Yeah, I had a feeling it must have just been the car. Yep, you're right, Massa didn't go anywhere this year either and was behind Bottas pretty much every week.

Hopefully Renault come good in the next couple of seasons. Would like to see Hulkenburg with a great car underneath him to see what his real potential is. He's always seemed quick to me so reckon he just needs a great car to see some great results.

[coalesce]

https://twitter.com/f1/status/808351447624495105

[wazamac]

I do like the bit with having to find the tyres.

Didn't at the time though.

[Jazz18]

There was a re run of the 2016 Monaco GP on Fox the other day. I can't believe I recorded it to be tortured all over again!